In the US, Gaza is a different war

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xfxfxfanatikx

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#1 xfxfxfanatikx
Member since 2005 • 436 Posts

No wonder most Americans do not understand a thing!
Some of the comments made by people just made me angry,what is wrong with people?

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/20091585448204690.html

In the US, Gaza is a different war
By Habib Battah

The mainstream US media has been careful to balance images of Gazan suffering with those of Israelis, leading to accusations it is not reflecting the unequal death toll [EPA]

The images of two women on the front page of an edition of The Washington Post last week illustrates how mainstream US media has been reporting Israel's war on Gaza.

On the left was a Palestinian mother who had lost five children. On the right was a nearly equally sized picture of an Israeli woman who was distressed by the fighting, according to the caption.

As the Palestinian woman cradled the dead body of one child, another infant son, his face blackened and disfigured with bruises, cried beside her.

The Israeli woman did not appear to be wounded in any way but also wept.

Arab frustration

To understand the frustration often felt in the Arab world over US media coverage, one only needs to imagine the same front page had the situation been reversed.

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If an Israeli woman had lost five daughters in a Palestinian attack, would The Washington Post run an equally sized photograph of a relatively unharmed Palestinian woman, who was merely distraught over Israeli missile fire?

When the front page photographs of the two women were published on December 30, over 350 Palestinians had reportedly been killed compared to just four Israelis.

What if 350 Israelis had been killed and only four Palestinians - would the newspaper have run the stories side by side as if equal in news value?

Like many major news organisations in the US, The Washington Post has chosen to cover the conflict from a perspective that reflects the US government's relationship with Israel. This means prioritising Israel's version of events while underplaying the views of Palestinian groups.

For example, the newspaper's lead article on Tuesday, which was published above the mothers' photographs, quotes Israeli military and civilian sources nine times before quoting a single Palestinian. The first seven paragraphs explain Israel's military strategy. The ninth paragraph describes the anxiety among Israelis, spending evenings in bomb shelters. Ordinary Palestinians, who generally have no access to bomb shelters, do not make an appearance until the 23rd paragraph.

To balance this top story, The Washington Post published another article on the bottom half of the front page about the Palestinian mother and her children. But would the paper have ever considered balancing a story about a massive attack on Israelis with an in-depth lead piece on the strategy of Palestinian militants?

Context stripped

Major US television channels also adopted the equal time approach, despite the reality that Palestinian casualties exceeded Israeli ones by a hundred fold. However, such comparisons were rare because the scripts read by American correspondents often excluded the overall Palestinian death count.

By stripping the context, American viewers may have easily assumed a level playing field, rather than a case of disproportionate force.

Take the opening lines of a report filed by NBC's Martin Fletcher on December 30: "In Gaza two little girls were taking out the rubbish and killed by an Israeli rocket - while in Israel, a woman had been driving home and was killed by a Hamas rocket. No let up today on either side on the fourth day of this battle."

Omitted from the report was the overall Palestinian death toll, dropped continuously in subsequent reports filed by NBC correspondents over the next several days.

When number of deaths did appear - sometimes as a graphic at the bottom of the screen - it was identified as the number of "people killed" rather than being attributed specifically to Palestinians.

No wonder the overwhelmingly asymmetrical bombardment of Gaza has been framed vaguely as "rising tensions in the Middle East" by news anchors.

With the lack of context, the power dynamic on the ground becomes unclear.

ABC news, for example, regularly introduced events in Gaza as "Mideast Violence". And Like NBC, reporters excluded the Palestinian death toll.

On December 31, when Palestinian deaths stood at almost 400, ABC correspondent Simon McGergor-Wood began a video package by describing damage to an Israeli school by Hamas rockets.

The reporter's script can be paraphrased as follows: Israel wanted a sustainable ceasefire; Israel needed to prevent Hamas from rearming; Hamas targets were hit; Israel was sending in aid and letting the injured out; Israel was doing "everything they can to alleviate the humanitarian crisis". And with that McGregor-Wood signed off.

Palestinian perspective missing

There was no parallel telling of the Palestinian perspective, and no mention of any damages to Palestinian lives, although news agencies that day had reported five Palestinians dead.

For the ABC correspondent, it seemed the Palestinian deaths contained less news value than damage to Israeli buildings. His narration of events, meanwhile, amounted to no less than a parroting of the official Israeli line.

In fact, the Israeli government view typically went unchallenged on major US networks.

The US media has been accused of prioritising Israel's version of events [EPA]
Interviews with Israeli spokesmen and ambassadors were not juxtaposed with the voices of Palestinian leaders. Prominent American news anchors frequently adopted the Israeli viewpoint. In talk show discussions, instead of debating events on the ground, the pundits often reinforced each other's views.

Such an episode occurred on a December 30 broadcast of the MSNBC show, Morning Joe, during which host Joe Scarborough repeatedly insisted that Israel should not be judged.

Israel was defending itself just as the US had done throughout history. "How many people did we kill in Germany?" Scarborough posed.

The blame rested on the Palestinians, he concluded, connecting the Gaza attacks to the Camp David negotiations of 2000. "They gave the Palestinians everything they could ask for, and they walked away from the table," he said repeatedly.

Although this view was challenged once by Zbigniew Brzezinski, a former US official, who appeared briefly on the show, subsequent guests agreed incessantly with Scarborough's characterisation of the Palestinians as negligent, if not criminal in nature.

According to guest Dan Bartlett, a former White House counsel, the Palestinian leadership had made it "very clear" that they were uninterested in peace talks.

Another guest, NBC anchor David Gregory, began by noting that Yasser Arafat, the late Palestinian president, "could not be trusted", according to Bill Clinton, the former US president.

Gregory then added that Hamas had "undercut the peace process" and actually welcomed the attacks.

"The reality is that Hamas wanted this, they didn't want the ceasefire," he said.

Columnist Margaret Carlson also joined the show, agreeing in principal that Hamas should be "crushed" but voicing concern over the cost of such action.

Thus the debate was not whether Israel was justified, but rather what Israel should do next. The Palestinian human tragedy received little to no attention.

Victim's perspective

Arab audiences saw a different picture altogether. Rather than mulling Israel's dilemma, the Arab news networks captured the air assault in chilling detail from the perspective of its victims. The divide in coverage was staggering.

For US networks, the bombing of Gaza has largely been limited to two-minute video packages or five minute talk show segments. This has usually meant a few snippets of jumbled video: explosions from a distance and a momentary glance at victims; barely enough time to remember a face, let alone a personality. Victims were rarely interviewed.

The availability of time and space, American broadcast executives might argue, were mitigating factors.

On MSNBC for example, Gaza competed for air time last week with stories about the economy, such as a hike in liquor sales, or celebrity news, such as speculation over the publishing of photographs of Sarah Palin's new grandchild.

Most US networks have reported exclusively from Israel [GALLO/GETTY]
On Arab TV, however, Gaza has been the only story.

For hours on end, live images from the streets of Gaza are beamed into Arab households.

Unlike the correspondents from ABC and NBC, who have filed their reports exclusively from Israeli cities, Arab crews are inside Gaza, with many correspondents native Gazans themselves.

The images they capture are often broadcast unedited, and over the last week, a grizzly news gathering routine has been established.

The cycle begins with rooftop-mounted cameras, capturing the air raids live. After moments of quiet, thunderous bombing commences and plumes of smoke rise over the skyline. Then, anguish on the streets. Panicked civilians run for cover as ambulances careen through narrow alleys. Rescue workers hurriedly pick through the rubble, often pulling out mangled bodies. Fathers with tears of rage hold dead children up to the cameras, vowing revenge. The wounded are carried out in stretchers, gushing with blood.

Later, local journalists visit the hospitals and more gruesome images, more dead children are broadcast. Doctors wrap up the tiny bodies and carry them into overflowing morgues. The survivors speak to reporters. Their distraught voices are heard around the region; the outflow of misery and destruction is constant.

Palestinian voices

The coverage extends beyond Gaza. Unlike the US networks, which are often limited to one or two correspondents in Israel, major Arab television channels maintain correspondents and bureaus throughout the region. As angry protests take place on a near daily basis, the crews are there to capture the action live.

Even in Israel, Arab reporters are employed, and Israeli politicians are regularly interviewed. But so are members of Hamas and the other Palestinian factions.

The inclusion of Palestinian voices is not unique to Arab media. On a number of international broadcasters, including BBC World and CNN International, Palestinian leaders and Gazans in particular are regularly heard. And the Palestinian death toll has been provided every day, in most broadcasts and by most correspondents on the ground. Reports are also filed from Arab capitals.

On some level, the relatively small American broadcasting output can be attributed to a general trend in downsizing foreign reporting. But had a bloodbath on this scale happened in Israel, would the networks not have sent in reinforcements?

For now, the Israeli viewpoint seems slated to continue to dominate Gaza coverage. The latest narrative comes from the White House, which has called for a "durable" ceasefire, preventing Hamas terrorists from launching more rockets.

Naturally the soundbites are parroted by US broadcasters throughout the day and then reinforced by pundits, fearing the dangerous Hamas.

Arab channels, however, see a different outcome. Many have begun referring to Hamas, once controversial, as simply "the Palestinian resistance".

While American analysts map out Israel's strategy, Arab broadcasters are drawing their own maps, plotting the expanding range of Hamas rockets, and predicting a strengthened hand for opposition to Israel, rather than a weakened one.

Habib Battah is a freelance journalist and media analyst based in Beirut and New York.

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Loonie

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#2 Loonie
Member since 2003 • 3455 Posts
Winning the crusades has never been so fun.
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BiancaDK

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#3 BiancaDK
Member since 2008 • 19092 Posts
i dont get the point of this post, atleast not if its a constructive one. You want to know what is "wrong with people" ?
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DigitalExile

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#4 DigitalExile
Member since 2008 • 16046 Posts
Way too long to read. I clicked the link and saw dead babies. Dead babies isn't a biased image? Why don't they show pictures of Hamas soldiers firing rockets from schools, and homes, making kids, and those same babies, targets in the first place?
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kruesader

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#5 kruesader
Member since 2006 • 6443 Posts
The intent of Hamas is worse, Israel is more effective at military combat, that's the difference, it isn't a matter of proportionality.
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#6 DigitalExile
Member since 2008 • 16046 Posts
The intent of Hamas is worse, Israel is more effective at military combat, that's the difference, it isn't a matter of proportionality.kruesader
I saw something on TV a few minutes ago, and someone said, more or less, that "It's Israels responsibility to end the war because it is more powerful," which is total BS, imo.
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albi321

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#7 albi321
Member since 2007 • 1552 Posts
Way too long to read. I clicked the link and saw dead babies. Dead babies isn't a biased image? Why don't they show pictures of Hamas soldiers firing rockets from schools, and homes, making kids, and those same babies, targets in the first place?DigitalExile
A hamas rocket:  Israeli rockets:    source: http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/01/scenes_from_the_gaza_strip.html
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DigitalExile

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#8 DigitalExile
Member since 2008 • 16046 Posts

albi321, the moral of the story is, if you want to pick on someone, make sure you're bigger than them. Besides, just because you show scorch marks doesn't mean those rockets can't kill.

Hamas picked a fight it couldn't win, and now it's paying for it, and making innocent people pay.

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Loonie

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#9 Loonie
Member since 2003 • 3455 Posts
[QUOTE="DigitalExile"]Way too long to read. I clicked the link and saw dead babies. Dead babies isn't a biased image? Why don't they show pictures of Hamas soldiers firing rockets from schools, and homes, making kids, and those same babies, targets in the first place?albi321
A hamas rocket: pictures

Everyone already knows israel is the better side. I dunno why anyone supports palestine anyway; there is no way their side will win.
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kruesader

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#10 kruesader
Member since 2006 • 6443 Posts
[QUOTE="DigitalExile"]Way too long to read. I clicked the link and saw dead babies. Dead babies isn't a biased image? Why don't they show pictures of Hamas soldiers firing rockets from schools, and homes, making kids, and those same babies, targets in the first place?albi321
A hamas rocket: pictures

So what? the rockets are sent with intent to kill, if Hamas had tactical nukes then they would use them instead and then see who cries for the underdog.
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deactivated-57e5de5e137a4

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#11 deactivated-57e5de5e137a4
Member since 2004 • 12929 Posts
Firstly, I only read about a third of the post, because it looks like a copy paste job so I thought you wouldn't be offended. Secondly, I would think showing a picture of a woman who had lost 5 children and comparing it to a picture of a woman who was distressed about the war is trying to gain sympathy for the woman who had lost children, I don't think the size of the pictures matters. Thirdly, if someone breaks into my house with a BB gun and repeatedly shoot at me and tries to hit me, I will bring out my real weapon and shoot them. Just because it was a BB gun doesn't mean it wasn't dangerous and they weren't wrong.
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Devour2Survive

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#12 Devour2Survive
Member since 2008 • 782 Posts

albi321, the moral of the story is, if you want to pick on someone, make sure you're bigger than them. Besides, just because you show scorch marks doesn't mean those rockets can't kill.

Hamas picked a fight it couldn't win, and now it's paying for it, and making innocent people pay.

DigitalExile
Hamas aren't the ones killing innocent people in Gaza genius. Although it doesn't matter, there is nothing you can say that will change my opinion on Israel.
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BiancaDK

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#13 BiancaDK
Member since 2008 • 19092 Posts
[QUOTE="Devour2Survive"][QUOTE="DigitalExile"]

albi321, the moral of the story is, if you want to pick on someone, make sure you're bigger than them. Besides, just because you show scorch marks doesn't mean those rockets can't kill.

Hamas picked a fight it couldn't win, and now it's paying for it, and making innocent people pay.

Hamas aren't the ones killing innocent people in Gaza genius. Although it doesn't matter, there is nothing you can say that will change my opinion on Israel.

im not saying that youre ignorant, but... That statement seems abit ignorant. Youre pretty much saying that no matter how rational, logical and ethical one might counter-argue you, you would discard it for your own convictions, regardless of what your own conviction is based on?
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#14 Devour2Survive
Member since 2008 • 782 Posts
[QUOTE="BiancaDK"][QUOTE="Devour2Survive"][QUOTE="DigitalExile"]

albi321, the moral of the story is, if you want to pick on someone, make sure you're bigger than them. Besides, just because you show scorch marks doesn't mean those rockets can't kill.

Hamas picked a fight it couldn't win, and now it's paying for it, and making innocent people pay.

Hamas aren't the ones killing innocent people in Gaza genius. Although it doesn't matter, there is nothing you can say that will change my opinion on Israel.

im not saying that youre ignorant, but... That statement seems abit ignorant. Youre pretty much saying that no matter how rational, logical and ethical one might counter-argue you, you would discard it for your own convictions, regardless of what your own conviction is based on?

Nobody wins in a debate or an argument. When two people get into an argument, the chances of one of them actually changing the others opinion is very low.
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#15 Baranga
Member since 2005 • 14217 Posts

Thirdly, if someone breaks into my house with a BB gun and repeatedly shoot at me and tries to hit me, I will bring out my real weapon and shoot them. Just because it was a BB gun doesn't mean it wasn't dangerous and they weren't wrong.guynamedbilly

Why don't you bring out your own BB gun?

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kruesader

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#16 kruesader
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[QUOTE="guynamedbilly"] Thirdly, if someone breaks into my house with a BB gun and repeatedly shoot at me and tries to hit me, I will bring out my real weapon and shoot them. Just because it was a BB gun doesn't mean it wasn't dangerous and they weren't wrong.Baranga

Why don't you bring out your own BB gun?

Because he wants to win against the aggressor.
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II_Seraphim_II

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#17 II_Seraphim_II
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The intent of Hamas is worse, Israel is more effective at military combat, that's the difference, it isn't a matter of proportionality.kruesader
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions" So you are telling me if Israel killed the entire palestinian population with the INTENT of protecting its citizens, its ok? :|
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ffaf666

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#18 ffaf666
Member since 2006 • 377 Posts
gaza is the modern day warsaw ghetto. if israel is targetting hamas why are international doctors in gaza hospital say that it is stupid that israel is saying that only targeting hamas. search on youtube about the dense inert metal explosives being used, the doctor said" you just dont do this to people, even if you fight with them".
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#19 DigitalExile
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[QUOTE="kruesader"]The intent of Hamas is worse, Israel is more effective at military combat, that's the difference, it isn't a matter of proportionality.II_Seraphim_II
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions" So you are telling me if Israel killed the entire palestinian population is the INTENT of protecting its citizens, its ok? :|

Only is Hamas targets kept hiding around civilians until the very end and civilian casualties were not intentional.
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DigitalExile

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#20 DigitalExile
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gaza is the modern day warsaw ghetto. if israel is targetting hamas why are international doctors in gaza hospital say that it is stupid that israel is saying that only targeting hamas. search on youtube about the dense inert metal explosives being used, the doctor said" you just dont do this to people, even if you fight with them". ffaf666
Doctors don't have the right to say what is and isn't moral, especially in a military conflict--unless they are military doctors, but even then they have no place. War is war, it sucks, but someone started it and won't stop, so the other side has to eliminate the enemy in order to win.
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#21 BiancaDK
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"Nobody wins in a debate or an argument. When two people get into an argument, the chances of one of them actually changing the others opinion is very low." i do not agree at all, for a myriad of reasons, but i guess its pretty self evident that there would be no reason for me to counter-argue it. See, _now_ its pointless.
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II_Seraphim_II

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#22 II_Seraphim_II
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[QUOTE="II_Seraphim_II"][QUOTE="kruesader"]The intent of Hamas is worse, Israel is more effective at military combat, that's the difference, it isn't a matter of proportionality.DigitalExile
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions" So you are telling me if Israel killed the entire palestinian population is the INTENT of protecting its citizens, its ok? :|

Only is Hamas targets kept hiding around civilians until the very end and civilian casualties were not intentional.

As my quotation states, intent is pointless, only results. Intent is subjective, what isn't subjective are the actual numbers of dead, and its pretty obvious that Israel is the one holding the scythe. If we were to argue everything based on intent, no progress would ever be made. I'm sure the 911 terrorists believed that their intent and motivations were pure. They were killing people in an attempt to stop the persecution of their people. Does that make their actions OK? Intent means nothing to the family members of the dead.
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DigitalExile

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#23 DigitalExile
Member since 2008 • 16046 Posts

[QUOTE="DigitalExile"][QUOTE="II_Seraphim_II"] "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" So you are telling me if Israel killed the entire palestinian population is the INTENT of protecting its citizens, its ok? :|II_Seraphim_II
Only is Hamas targets kept hiding around civilians until the very end and civilian casualties were not intentional.

As my quotation states, intent is pointless, only results. Intent is subjective, what isn't subjective are the actual numbers of dead, and its pretty obvious that Israel is the one holding the scythe. If we were to argue everything based on intent, no progress would ever be made. I'm sure the 911 terrorists believed that their intent and motivations were pure. They were killing people in an attempt to stop the persecution of their people. Does that make their actions OK? Intent means nothing to the family members of the dead.

So it's okay for Hamas to continue attacking Israel, which it most certainly will, at some point, but it's not okay for Israel to do anything because it has the power to inflict much more damage?

No, Hamas chose the wrong country to **** with, and now it's paying for it, and making innocent civilians pay for it to.

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ffaf666

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#24 ffaf666
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this is just stupid saying hamas is using civlians as shields, israel has many drones and wheres the footage. why would hamas, who believe that they are protecting their people, purposely use civilans as shields knowing that these civilians would die as a result of their actions. if israel cared about the civians it would send in ground forces to those areas. the idea, that people use human shields is because they dont want to die and guess what hamas say they hundreds of suicide bomber waiting for the soldiers.
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II_Seraphim_II

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#25 II_Seraphim_II
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So it's okay for Hamas to continue attacking Israel, which it most certainly will, at some point, but it's not okay for Israel to do anything because it has the power to inflict much more damage?

No, Hamas chose the wrong country to **** with, and now it's paying for it, and making innocent civilians pay for it to.

DigitalExile

What is it with you and passing off blame? Im not saying Hamas militants are saints or anything. We have established that they are wrong, the problem is that most Israeli politicians seem to believe that they are clean as a whistle when in reality they arent. You seem to be equally as adamant that they are. So lets assess this. Who is firing the rockets into Gaza? Who's rockets and missles are killing hundreds of civilians? Answer me that. These are simple questions. I dont need 100 page long answers just answer me in 1 word. If you do as I say, you will realize that Israel is in fact killing civilians in Gaza. "But its because blah blah blah..." and we go back in a circle with you trying to bring the topic of "intent" into the picture again. Intent is irrelavent, just the facts are. Both sides are equally as amoral when it comes to this conflict. I personally find both sides to be despicable. My only gripe is that the US goes out of its way to act as if Israel takes sufficient measures to ensure the saftey of Palestinian civilians.

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DigitalExile

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#26 DigitalExile
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What is it with you and passing off blame? Im not saying Hamas militants are saints or anything. We have established that they are wrong, the problem is that most Israeli politicians seem to believe that they are clean as a whistle when in reality they arent. You seem to be equally as adamant that they are. So lets assess this. Who is firing the rockets into Gaza? Who's rockets and missles are killing hundreds of civilians? Answer me that. These are simple questions. I dont need 100 page long answers just answer me in 1 word. If you do as I say, you will realize that Israel is in fact killing civilians in Gaza. "But its because blah blah blah..." and we go back in a circle with you trying to bring the topic of "intent" into the picture again. Intent is irrelavent, just the facts are. Both sides are equally as amoral when it comes to this conflict. I personally find both sides to be despicable. My only gripe is that the US goes out of its way to act as if Israel takes sufficient measures to ensure the saftey of Palestinian civilians.

II_Seraphim_II

What, you want Israel and Hamas to take this war out into the middle of the ocean or desert? Hamas has been a thorn in Israels side for too long and Israel has had enough. Hamas has decided it will play the game in densly populated urban areas where they KNOW civilians are, where they KNOw Israel will take the blame. You think that's not part of teh plan? Hamas doesn't give a flying **** about the people. If they did they;d give up and spare the people the slaughter. Using a not-very-serious example: The Dark Knight. The Joker keeps killing innocent people until Batman gives himself up. Who's at blame? The person killing, or the person who can stop the killing?

It's not a one-word answer, but neither is a complicated issue. Instead of asking me who's firing rockets, ask me who is to blame. THAT is a one-word answer: Hamas

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II_Seraphim_II

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#27 II_Seraphim_II
Member since 2007 • 20534 Posts
[QUOTE="II_Seraphim_II"]

What is it with you and passing off blame? Im not saying Hamas militants are saints or anything. We have established that they are wrong, the problem is that most Israeli politicians seem to believe that they are clean as a whistle when in reality they arent. You seem to be equally as adamant that they are. So lets assess this. Who is firing the rockets into Gaza? Who's rockets and missles are killing hundreds of civilians? Answer me that. These are simple questions. I dont need 100 page long answers just answer me in 1 word. If you do as I say, you will realize that Israel is in fact killing civilians in Gaza. "But its because blah blah blah..." and we go back in a circle with you trying to bring the topic of "intent" into the picture again. Intent is irrelavent, just the facts are. Both sides are equally as amoral when it comes to this conflict. I personally find both sides to be despicable. My only gripe is that the US goes out of its way to act as if Israel takes sufficient measures to ensure the saftey of Palestinian civilians.

DigitalExile

What, you want Israel and Hamas to take this war out into the middle of the ocean or desert? Hamas has been a thorn in Israels side for too long and Israel has had enough. Hamas has decided it will play the game in densly populated urban areas where they KNOW civilians are, where they KNOw Israel will take the blame. You think that's not part of teh plan? Hamas doesn't give a flying **** about the people. If they did they;d give up and spare the people the slaughter. Using a not-very-serious example: The Dark Knight. The Joker keeps killing innocent people until Batman gives himself up. Who's at blame? The person killing, or the person who can stop the killing?

It's not a one-word answer, but neither is a complicated issue. Instead of asking me who's firing rockets, ask me who is to blame. THAT is a one-word answer: Hamas

Ah ok, so basically what you are saying, is that if the Russian army were to invade Israel right now, Israel would just give up and share some tea and cookies with them...right? :roll:
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DigitalExile

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#28 DigitalExile
Member since 2008 • 16046 Posts

Ah ok, so basically what you are saying, is that if the Russian army were to invade Israel right now, Israel would just give up and share some tea and cookies with them...right? :roll:II_Seraphim_II
Russia would be initiating an unprovoked attack. Israel would be in the right.

Now, if Israel attacked Russia, and then Russia nuked Israel, then it sux 2 b Israel because they started something they couldn't handle to finish (win).

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II_Seraphim_II

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#29 II_Seraphim_II
Member since 2007 • 20534 Posts

[QUOTE="II_Seraphim_II"] Ah ok, so basically what you are saying, is that if the Russian army were to invade Israel right now, Israel would just give up and share some tea and cookies with them...right? :roll:DigitalExile

Russia would be initiating an unprovoked attack. Israel would be in the right.

Now, if Israel attacked Russia, and then Russia nuked Israel, then it sux 2 b Israel because they started something they couldn't handle to finish (win).

Ok, so lets say Russia were to say "Ok, we are done with the Chechnians. We are going to partition Israel and give them half of the land to call their own home." Im sure israel would be ecstatic about the whole thing and welcome this with open arms!
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DigitalExile

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#30 DigitalExile
Member since 2008 • 16046 Posts

[QUOTE="DigitalExile"]

[QUOTE="II_Seraphim_II"] Ah ok, so basically what you are saying, is that if the Russian army were to invade Israel right now, Israel would just give up and share some tea and cookies with them...right? :roll:II_Seraphim_II

Russia would be initiating an unprovoked attack. Israel would be in the right.

Now, if Israel attacked Russia, and then Russia nuked Israel, then it sux 2 b Israel because they started something they couldn't handle to finish (win).

Ok, so lets say Russia were to say "Ok, we are done with the Chechnians. We are going to partition Israel and give them half of the land to call their own home." Im sure israel would be ecstatic about the whole thing and welcome this with open arms!

What does Hamas initiating war with Israel got to do with that?

Fishing? Does that mean I won?

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II_Seraphim_II

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#31 II_Seraphim_II
Member since 2007 • 20534 Posts

[QUOTE="II_Seraphim_II"][QUOTE="DigitalExile"]Russia would be initiating an unprovoked attack. Israel would be in the right.

Now, if Israel attacked Russia, and then Russia nuked Israel, then it sux 2 b Israel because they started something they couldn't handle to finish (win).

DigitalExile
Ok, so lets say Russia were to say "Ok, we are done with the Chechnians. We are going to partition Israel and give them half of the land to call their own home." Im sure israel would be ecstatic about the whole thing and welcome this with open arms!

What does Hamas initiating war with Israel got to do with that?

Fishing? Does that mean I won?

It has to do with the fact that Palestinian people have lost more than 50% of their country and are now forced to live in a very small area. And like that not bad enough, even that small area that has been allotted to them is still being stolen by Illegal Israeli settlements, which have been deemed ILLEGAL by the UN yet Israel doesn't do enough to stop them, because the US will block any motion within the UN that would force the Israeli government have to act civil.
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DigitalExile

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#32 DigitalExile
Member since 2008 • 16046 Posts
It has to do with the fact that Palestinian people have lost more than 50% of their country and are now forced to live in a very small area. And like that not bad enough, even that small area that has been allotted to them is still being stolen by Illegal Israeli settlements, which have been deemed ILLEGAL by the UN yet Israel doesn't do enough to stop them, because the US will block any motion within the UN that would force the Israeli government have to act civil.II_Seraphim_II
Hm. Fair enough, but it's a bit irrelevent to the topic at hand. But I forgot what that is (or stopped caring) so I think I'll end this here, though feel free to continue on your own.
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II_Seraphim_II

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#33 II_Seraphim_II
Member since 2007 • 20534 Posts
[QUOTE="II_Seraphim_II"] It has to do with the fact that Palestinian people have lost more than 50% of their country and are now forced to live in a very small area. And like that not bad enough, even that small area that has been allotted to them is still being stolen by Illegal Israeli settlements, which have been deemed ILLEGAL by the UN yet Israel doesn't do enough to stop them, because the US will block any motion within the UN that would force the Israeli government have to act civil.DigitalExile
Hm. Fair enough, but it's a bit irrelevent to the topic at hand. But I forgot what that is (or stopped caring) so I think I'll end this here, though feel free to continue on your own.

Good arguement we had though :D Most people just tend to start flaming, but you didnt :D
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-gtspectre-

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#34 -gtspectre-
Member since 2008 • 41 Posts

this is just stupid saying hamas is using civlians as shields, israel has many drones and wheres the footage. ffaf666

There you go:

Human Shields - Hamas in action

Hamas human shields

Hamas using children as human shield

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Vanadium2k8

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#35 Vanadium2k8
Member since 2008 • 1605 Posts
Way too long to read. I clicked the link and saw dead babies. Dead babies isn't a biased image? Why don't they show pictures of Hamas soldiers firing rockets from schools, and homes, making kids, and those same babies, targets in the first place?DigitalExile
That's what the article is about, the untold Palestinian side of the story.
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MFaraz_Hayat

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#36 MFaraz_Hayat
Member since 2006 • 1794 Posts
What I don't get is, that how is it justified that if a random person, shoots a mortar a block away from your home, and a retaliation from the other side literally blows the whole block apart. The random person (hamas) is wrong in firing rockets, the other side (Israel) is wrong for blowing off an entire block (regardless of how many deaths it causes). Before someone says, that Israel cares for the civilians, please, the staistics speak for themselves. And I still don't understand, why First Israeli PM actually clarfied, why this land belongs to them because God prmised it to them.
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Vanadium2k8

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#37 Vanadium2k8
Member since 2008 • 1605 Posts
What I don't get is, that how is it justified that if a random person, shoots a mortar a block away from your home, and a retaliation from the other side literally blows the whole block apart. The random person (hamas) is wrong in firing rockets, the other side (Israel) is wrong for blowing off an entire block (regardless of how many deaths it causes). Before someone says, that Israel cares for the civilians, please, the satistics speak for themselves.MFaraz_Hayat
Agreed. Also, most people say the rockets were unjustified, what they think is that Hamas is a terrorist group and their main intention is to cause havoc. That is not the case, just like Israel, they are fighting for their people. If Israel's attacks are justifiable, in "protection" of their citizens, then Hamas' attacks are also justified, if not more so.
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Baranga

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#38 Baranga
Member since 2005 • 14217 Posts

[QUOTE="ffaf666"]this is just stupid saying hamas is using civlians as shields, israel has many drones and wheres the footage. -gtspectre-

There you go:

Human Shields - Hamas in action

Hamas human shields

Hamas using children as human shield

Wasn't there a story about the Israeli using a palestinian kid strapped to a car?

this land belongs to them because God prmised it to them.MFaraz_Hayat

I guess that's why America is on Israel's side:) Can't argue with such a good reason!

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-gtspectre-

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#39 -gtspectre-
Member since 2008 • 41 Posts

Wasn't there a story about the Israeli using a palestinian kid strapped to a car?

Baranga

Link?

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Baranga

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#40 Baranga
Member since 2005 • 14217 Posts
[QUOTE="Baranga"]

Wasn't there a story about the Israeli using a palestinian kid strapped to a car?

-gtspectre-

Link?

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-168360

The link and the picture are not related.

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kruesader

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#41 kruesader
Member since 2006 • 6443 Posts
His friends should not throw stones.
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-gtspectre-

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#42 -gtspectre-
Member since 2008 • 41 Posts

Baranga

It is, indeed, very unfortunate and I can't say I support this specific act.

However, one incident doesn't necessarily represent the morality of an entire military. Unless you can prove that using civilians as human shields is a widely-used tactic by the IDF, this incident means very little in terms of the IDF's policy.

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sentenced83

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#43 sentenced83
Member since 2005 • 1529 Posts

http://www.eng-smsm.blogspot.com/

go donw in that link and see isreali soldiers celebrating , children are 1/3 of the casualties , barbarians

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7ettus

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#44 7ettus
Member since 2009 • 298 Posts
It's all confusing to me.
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freshgman

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#45 freshgman
Member since 2005 • 12241 Posts
yeah the us media is like that
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Ninja-Hippo

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#46 Ninja-Hippo
Member since 2008 • 23434 Posts
I find it frustrating that people continually compare the number of casualties. The simple fact is that had Hamas not continued to fire rockets into Israeli neighborhoods this wouldn't be happening. People in the west are so quick to judge, yet i wonder if the people condemning israel ever took a gander at the number of afghani civilians who died compared to those who died in the 9/11 attacks. It simply doesnt work that way. Hamas have launched rockets into israel, knowing that these attacks enrage the israeli government, and they're now facing the consequences of military action to find and destroy them. It's horrible that innocent people are caught in the middle, but that's the tragic nature of war, and it's a war that Hamas have brought on their own people, who they're all too happy to use as human shields in the first place.
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#47 Ninja-Hippo
Member since 2008 • 23434 Posts
It's all confusing to me.7ettus
It's a similar situation to what happened with Russia last year. Basically, Hamas is a government which the US see as a terrorist organisation, who fired rockets into Israel from a neighboring land called Gaza. Israel responded by sending their military into Gaza to destroy Hamas, which people are protesting against because their response is vastly more powerful and more extreme than the small and ineffective rocket attacks which provoked it.
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Stesilaus

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#48 Stesilaus
Member since 2007 • 4999 Posts

[QUOTE="ffaf666"]this is just stupid saying hamas is using civlians as shields, israel has many drones and wheres the footage. -gtspectre-

There you go:

Human Shields - Hamas in action

Hamas human shields

Hamas using children as human shield

That makes Hamas no worse than Winston Churchill, who strongly advocated the use of civilian shipping to convey munitions from the US to Britain during WWI.

Yes, that statement is both sincere and accurate!

Research the truth about the sinking of the Lusitania and the use of US citizens as human shields by the despicable coward, Winston Churchill.

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freshgman

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#49 freshgman
Member since 2005 • 12241 Posts
I find it frustrating that people continually compare the number of casualties. The simple fact is that had Hamas not continued to fire rockets into Israeli neighborhoods this wouldn't be happening. People in the west are so quick to judge, yet i wonder if the people condemning israel ever took a gander at the number of afghani civilians who died compared to those who died in the 9/11 attacks. It simply doesnt work that way. Hamas have launched rockets into israel, knowing that these attacks enrage the israeli government, and they're now facing the consequences of military action to find and destroy them. It's horrible that innocent people are caught in the middle, but that's the tragic nature of war, and it's a war that Hamas have brought on their own people, who they're all too happy to use as human shields in the first place.Ninja-Hippo
well israel should gain the support of the palestinian people and they should work together against hamas. but after all those attacks at death tolls. hamas will never go away. they will gain more support because of this. just like al-qaeda got way more powerful after the iraq invasion. israel should have though this through. you can kill as much hamas members as you want but more will replace them. you have to get the hamas ideology out of there and killing civillians isnt the answer
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mamkem6

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#50 mamkem6
Member since 2007 • 1457 Posts
Israel is protected by USA in every way. That is the only reason why they can do what they are doing now without any sanctions