Is this a good example illustrating the perils of socialism?

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich. It is a great equalizer.

The professor then decided to experiment with the class. He decided that all grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy.

As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less, and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride
too, so they studied little. The second test average was a D! No one was happy.

When the 3rd test rolled around, the new average was an F.

As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame, and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

To their great surprise, ALL FAILED, and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.

Human nature will always cause socialism's style of government to fail because the world has producers and non-producers (makers and takers).

It is that simple.

Sounds more like a psychology experiment than one in socialism. There are many ways to teach a class a lesson, but messing with grades isn't a good way, speaking as a professor.

Old as fvck. Also lame.GazaAli

Very lame.

This does a better job at illustrating why Conservatives are stupid.

-

Joe Conservative wakes up in the morning and goes to the bathroom. He flushes his toilet and brushes his teeth, mindful that each flush & brush costs him about 43 cents to his privatized water provider. His wacky, liberal neighbor keeps badgering the company to disclose how clean and safe their water is, but no one ever finds out. Just to be safe, Joe Conservative boils his drinking water.

Joe steps outside and coughsthe pollution is especially bad today, but the smokiest cars are the cheapest ones, so everyone buys em. Joe Conservative checks to make sure he has enough toll money for the 3 different private roads he must drive to work. There is no public transportation, so traffic is backed up and his 10 mile commute takes an hour.

On the way, he drops his 12 year old daughter off at the clothing factory she works at. Paying for kids to go to private school until theyre 18 is a luxury, and Joe needs the extra income coming in. Times are hard and therere no social safety nets.

He gets to work 5 minutes late and misses the call for Christian prayer, and is immediately docked by his employer. He is not feeling well today, but has no health insurance, since neither his employer nor his government provide it, and paying for it himself is really expensive, since he has a precondition. He just hopes for the best.

Joes workday is 12 hours long, because there is no regulation over working hours, and Joe will lose his job if he complains or unionizes. Today is an especially bad day. Joes manager demands that he work until midnight, a 16 hour day. Joe does, knowing that hell lose his job if he does not.

Finally, after midnight, Joe gets to pick up his daughter and go home. His daughter shows him the deep cut she got on the industrial sewing machine today. Joe is outraged and asks why she doesnt have metal mesh gloves or other protection. She says the company will not provide it and shell have to pay for it out of her own pocket. Joe looks at the wound and decides theyll use an over the counter disinfectant and bandages until it heals. Shell have a scar, but getting stitches at the emergency room is expensive.

His daughter also complains that the manager made suggestive overtures towards her. Joe counsels her to be a good girl and not rock the boat, or shell get fired and theyll be out the income.

His daughter says she cant wait until shes 18 so she can vote for change or go to the Iraq War.

They get home and theres a message from his elderly father who cant afford to pay his medical or heating bills. Joe can hear him coughing and shivering.

Joe turns on the radio and the top story is a proposal in Congress to raise the voting age to 25. A rare liberal opinionator states that its an attempt to keep power out of the hands of working class Americans. The conservative host immediately quashes him, calling him a utopian idealist, and agreeing that people arent mature enough to make good choices until theyre at least 25.

Joe chuckles at the wine-swilling, cheese eating liberal egghead and thinks, Thank God I live in America where I have freedom!

No.  For one, the students weren't born into their grades, they all earned their grade after the first test.  I'd like to see this experiment performed where 1/3 of the class starts out with C's, 1/3 with A's, and 1/3 with F's.  Having the entire class start out from a blank slate is actually quite socialist in spirit.  Second, that's quite a broad generalization of socialism.  If we're talking about a socialism where everything is distributed equally ot everyone then yes, it highlights a problem within that system.  However, there are many different kinds of socialism, like cooperative socialism where all businesses are employee-owned.  Hell, Karl Marx referred to the sort of socialism where everyone was subject to the will of the masses as crude communism and said it negates the creative capacity of man in every sphere of existence.  Moreover, I've often seen this example used to discount what we commonly call socialism today, that is the existence of programs to help the poor and provide a safety net.  This example certainly doesn't speak to that as those programs don't give the same "grades" to the entire country, but rather ensure a minimum standard of living that still leaves quite a lot of room for improvement.  That we naturally compete with one another doesn't mean we have to let our competitiveness become cutthroat.

No.  For one, the students weren't born into their grades, they all earned their grade after the first test.  I'd like to see this experiment performed where 1/3 of the class starts out with C's, 1/3 with A's, and 1/3 with F's.  Having the entire class start out from a blank slate is actually quite socialist in spirit.  Second, that's quite a broad generalization of socialism.  If we're talking about a socialism where everything is distributed equally ot everyone then yes, it highlights a problem within that system.  However, there are many different kinds of socialism, like cooperative socialism where all businesses are employee-owned.  Hell, Karl Marx referred to the sort of socialism where everyone was subject to the will of the masses as crude communism and said it negates the creative capacity of man in every sphere of existence.  Moreover, I've often seen this example used to discount what we commonly call socialism today, that is the existence of programs to help the poor and provide a safety net.  This example certainly doesn't speak to that as those programs don't give the same "grades" to the entire country, but rather ensure a minimum standard of living that still leaves quite a lot of room for improvement.  That we naturally compete with one another doesn't mean we have to let our competitiveness become cutthroat.

theone86

No.  For one, the students weren't born into their grades, they all earned their grade after the first test.  I'd like to see this experiment performed where 1/3 of the class starts out with C's, 1/3 with A's, and 1/3 with F's.  Having the entire class start out from a blank slate is actually quite socialist in spirit.  Second, that's quite a broad generalization of socialism.  If we're talking about a socialism where everything is distributed equally ot everyone then yes, it highlights a problem within that system.  However, there are many different kinds of socialism, like cooperative socialism where all businesses are employee-owned.  Hell, Karl Marx referred to the sort of socialism where everyone was subject to the will of the masses as crude communism and said it negates the creative capacity of man in every sphere of existence.  Moreover, I've often seen this example used to discount what we commonly call socialism today, that is the existence of programs to help the poor and provide a safety net.  This example certainly doesn't speak to that as those programs don't give the same "grades" to the entire country, but rather ensure a minimum standard of living that still leaves quite a lot of room for improvement.  That we naturally compete with one another doesn't mean we have to let our competitiveness become cutthroat.

theone86

[QUOTE="theone86"]

No.  For one, the students weren't born into their grades, they all earned their grade after the first test.  I'd like to see this experiment performed where 1/3 of the class starts out with C's, 1/3 with A's, and 1/3 with F's.  Having the entire class start out from a blank slate is actually quite socialist in spirit.  Second, that's quite a broad generalization of socialism.  If we're talking about a socialism where everything is distributed equally ot everyone then yes, it highlights a problem within that system.  However, there are many different kinds of socialism, like cooperative socialism where all businesses are employee-owned.  Hell, Karl Marx referred to the sort of socialism where everyone was subject to the will of the masses as crude communism and said it negates the creative capacity of man in every sphere of existence.  Moreover, I've often seen this example used to discount what we commonly call socialism today, that is the existence of programs to help the poor and provide a safety net.  This example certainly doesn't speak to that as those programs don't give the same "grades" to the entire country, but rather ensure a minimum standard of living that still leaves quite a lot of room for improvement.  That we naturally compete with one another doesn't mean we have to let our competitiveness become cutthroat.

BMD004

Sounds more like a psychology experiment than one in socialism

jimkabrhel

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

[QUOTE="theone86"]

No.  For one, the students weren't born into their grades, they all earned their grade after the first test.  I'd like to see this experiment performed where 1/3 of the class starts out with C's, 1/3 with A's, and 1/3 with F's.  Having the entire class start out from a blank slate is actually quite socialist in spirit.  Second, that's quite a broad generalization of socialism.  If we're talking about a socialism where everything is distributed equally ot everyone then yes, it highlights a problem within that system.  However, there are many different kinds of socialism, like cooperative socialism where all businesses are employee-owned.  Hell, Karl Marx referred to the sort of socialism where everyone was subject to the will of the masses as crude communism and said it negates the creative capacity of man in every sphere of existence.  Moreover, I've often seen this example used to discount what we commonly call socialism today, that is the existence of programs to help the poor and provide a safety net.  This example certainly doesn't speak to that as those programs don't give the same "grades" to the entire country, but rather ensure a minimum standard of living that still leaves quite a lot of room for improvement.  That we naturally compete with one another doesn't mean we have to let our competitiveness become cutthroat.

evildead6789

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

[QUOTE="theone86"]

No.  For one, the students weren't born into their grades, they all earned their grade after the first test.  I'd like to see this experiment performed where 1/3 of the class starts out with C's, 1/3 with A's, and 1/3 with F's.  Having the entire class start out from a blank slate is actually quite socialist in spirit.  Second, that's quite a broad generalization of socialism.  If we're talking about a socialism where everything is distributed equally ot everyone then yes, it highlights a problem within that system.  However, there are many different kinds of socialism, like cooperative socialism where all businesses are employee-owned.  Hell, Karl Marx referred to the sort of socialism where everyone was subject to the will of the masses as crude communism and said it negates the creative capacity of man in every sphere of existence.  Moreover, I've often seen this example used to discount what we commonly call socialism today, that is the existence of programs to help the poor and provide a safety net.  This example certainly doesn't speak to that as those programs don't give the same "grades" to the entire country, but rather ensure a minimum standard of living that still leaves quite a lot of room for improvement.  That we naturally compete with one another doesn't mean we have to let our competitiveness become cutthroat.

evildead6789

and so does the U.S., btw.

I think socialism is meant to help the stupid people that still study hard. TC's story works only on the assumption that everybody has the same amount of smarts.DaBrainz

The point of the story is that those who do make good grades (regardless of whether it is natural brilliance or hard work) do not want to be brought down by those who make bad grades. And when they are brought down by those who make bad grades, they feel like "well why should I bust my ass to make A's when I'm only going to be give a "B" for my work? I'm not going to work as hard."

Well when the "A" students don't work as hard to pull the weight, everybody suffers. They lose the incentive to work as hard as they did.

No, because it's based on a narrow, wholly-distorted idea of socialism. At the very least, you won't find us libertarian socialists supporting any kind of socialism close to what is presupposed in that example. I don't even know any Marxists who see socialism that way.

[QUOTE="DaBrainz"]I think socialism is meant to help the stupid people that still study hard. TC's story works only on the assumption that everybody has the same amount of smarts.BMD004

The point of the story is that those who do make good grades (regardless of whether it is natural brilliance or hard work) do not want to be brought down by those who make bad grades. And when they are brought down by those who make bad grades, they feel like "well why should I bust my ass to make A's when I'm only going to be give a "B" for my work? I'm not going to work as hard."

Well when the "A" students don't work as hard to pull the weight, everybody suffers. They lose the incentive to work as hard as they did.

[QUOTE="evildead6789"][QUOTE="BMD004"]So what is your ideal system of government where we can be competitive, yet not cutthroat?GazaAli

No, because it's based on a narrow, wholly-distorted idea of socialism. At the very least, you won't find us libertarian socialists supporting any kind of socialism close to what is presupposed in that example.

ghoklebutter

The classroom scenario sounded more like a metaphor for communism than for socialism.

[QUOTE="evildead6789"][QUOTE="BMD004"]So what is your ideal system of government where we can be competitive, yet not cutthroat?

BMD004

and so does the U.S., btw.

and the us is still a beginner when it comes to social systems.

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]

No, because it's based on a narrow, wholly-distorted idea of socialism. At the very least, you won't find us libertarian socialists supporting any kind of socialism close to what is presupposed in that example.

Stesilaus

The classroom scenario sounded more like a metaphor for communism than for socialism.

This does a better job at illustrating why Conservatives are stupid.

-

Joe Conservative wakes up in the morning and goes to the bathroom. He flushes his toilet and brushes his teeth, mindful that each flush & brush costs him about 43 cents to his privatized water provider. His wacky, liberal neighbor keeps badgering the company to disclose how clean and safe their water is, but no one ever finds out. Just to be safe, Joe Conservative boils his drinking water.

Joe steps outside and coughsthe pollution is especially bad today, but the smokiest cars are the cheapest ones, so everyone buys em. Joe Conservative checks to make sure he has enough toll money for the 3 different private roads he must drive to work. There is no public transportation, so traffic is backed up and his 10 mile commute takes an hour.

On the way, he drops his 12 year old daughter off at the clothing factory she works at. Paying for kids to go to private school until theyre 18 is a luxury, and Joe needs the extra income coming in. Times are hard and therere no social safety nets.

He gets to work 5 minutes late and misses the call for Christian prayer, and is immediately docked by his employer. He is not feeling well today, but has no health insurance, since neither his employer nor his government provide it, and paying for it himself is really expensive, since he has a precondition. He just hopes for the best.

Joes workday is 12 hours long, because there is no regulation over working hours, and Joe will lose his job if he complains or unionizes. Today is an especially bad day. Joes manager demands that he work until midnight, a 16 hour day. Joe does, knowing that hell lose his job if he does not.

Finally, after midnight, Joe gets to pick up his daughter and go home. His daughter shows him the deep cut she got on the industrial sewing machine today. Joe is outraged and asks why she doesnt have metal mesh gloves or other protection. She says the company will not provide it and shell have to pay for it out of her own pocket. Joe looks at the wound and decides theyll use an over the counter disinfectant and bandages until it heals. Shell have a scar, but getting stitches at the emergency room is expensive.

His daughter also complains that the manager made suggestive overtures towards her. Joe counsels her to be a good girl and not rock the boat, or shell get fired and theyll be out the income.

His daughter says she cant wait until shes 18 so she can vote for change or go to the Iraq War.

They get home and theres a message from his elderly father who cant afford to pay his medical or heating bills. Joe can hear him coughing and shivering.

Joe turns on the radio and the top story is a proposal in Congress to raise the voting age to 25. A rare liberal opinionator states that its an attempt to keep power out of the hands of working class Americans. The conservative host immediately quashes him, calling him a utopian idealist, and agreeing that people arent mature enough to make good choices until theyre at least 25.

Joe chuckles at the wine-swilling, cheese eating liberal egghead and thinks, Thank God I live in America where I have freedom!

Aljosa23

I enjoyed that. :)

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

[QUOTE="evildead6789"] Most european countries used a mix of socialism and capitalism. evildead6789

and so does the U.S., btw.

and the us is still a beginner when it comes to social systems.

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

[QUOTE="theone86"]

No.  For one, the students weren't born into their grades, they all earned their grade after the first test.  I'd like to see this experiment performed where 1/3 of the class starts out with C's, 1/3 with A's, and 1/3 with F's.  Having the entire class start out from a blank slate is actually quite socialist in spirit.  Second, that's quite a broad generalization of socialism.  If we're talking about a socialism where everything is distributed equally ot everyone then yes, it highlights a problem within that system.  However, there are many different kinds of socialism, like cooperative socialism where all businesses are employee-owned.  Hell, Karl Marx referred to the sort of socialism where everyone was subject to the will of the masses as crude communism and said it negates the creative capacity of man in every sphere of existence.  Moreover, I've often seen this example used to discount what we commonly call socialism today, that is the existence of programs to help the poor and provide a safety net.  This example certainly doesn't speak to that as those programs don't give the same "grades" to the entire country, but rather ensure a minimum standard of living that still leaves quite a lot of room for improvement.  That we naturally compete with one another doesn't mean we have to let our competitiveness become cutthroat.

evildead6789

Old as fvck. Also lame.GazaAli

So where'd you copy this from?PannicAtack

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"]So where'd you copy this from?BMD004

Norway and Venezuela  does a good job taking care of its people. Holy hell a nation that actually uses its own resources to help its own people rather then letting it all go to the rich.

What a stupid class of students? did no one seriously think this idea through?  

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"]So where'd you copy this from?PannicAtack

I heard another story too: those who had the resources to cheat in a class all got better grades. Those who bribed the teacher can get A++

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"]So where'd you copy this from?BMD004

That actually is an issue in college. People don't try their hardest because they look at the average for the class and think "Eh, he can't fail everyone." So they continue to put forth hardly any effort and get passed because everyone did poorly.

This actually happened to me this semester, on the last test there were two distinct bell curves. One where the average was around 75 and the other around 40. Just shows that some kids gave up and are hoping to be passed and some worked their asses off.

That actually is an issue in college. People don't try their hardest because they look at the average for the class and think "Eh, he can't fail everyone." So they continue to put forth hardly any effort and get passed because everyone did poorly.

This actually happened to me this semester, on the last test there were two distinct bell curves. One where the average was around 75 and the other around 40. Just shows that some kids gave up and are hoping to be passed and some worked their asses off.

cain006

Personally, I've never run into anybody who thought like that, but still...that is some supremely sh!tty logic.

[QUOTE="cain006"]

That actually is an issue in college. People don't try their hardest because they look at the average for the class and think "Eh, he can't fail everyone." So they continue to put forth hardly any effort and get passed because everyone did poorly.

This actually happened to me this semester, on the last test there were two distinct bell curves. One where the average was around 75 and the other around 40. Just shows that some kids gave up and are hoping to be passed and some worked their asses off.

GreySeal9

Personally, I've never run into anybody who thought like that, but still...that is some supremely sh!tty logic.

Notice how all of the socialists are quite flabbergasted ITT.

This econs professor should be fired for being so stupid he relies on strawman fallacy to teach people.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="cain006"]

That actually is an issue in college. People don't try their hardest because they look at the average for the class and think "Eh, he can't fail everyone." So they continue to put forth hardly any effort and get passed because everyone did poorly.

This actually happened to me this semester, on the last test there were two distinct bell curves. One where the average was around 75 and the other around 40. Just shows that some kids gave up and are hoping to be passed and some worked their asses off.

mattbbpl

Personally, I've never run into anybody who thought like that, but still...that is some supremely sh!tty logic.

This econs professor should be fired for being so stupid he relies on strawman fallacy to teach people.

Barbariser

it's probably not real

Notice how all of the socialists are quite flabbergasted ITT.

airshocker

Who are all the socialists and how are they flabbergasted?

Notice how all of the socialists are quite flabbergasted ITT.

airshocker

[QUOTE="Barbariser"]

This econs professor should be fired for being so stupid he relies on strawman fallacy to teach people.

lostrib

it's probably not real

imo that's probably the concept taken to the extreme. similarly if there was an simplified story wrt extreme capitalism:

the professor administers the first test, a small portion of students work hard and receive A's. most get in the B to C range, some fail. to the A students, the professor also gives additional rewards, they're exempt from a homework assignment or two and praised over and over again by the professor.

the next test rolls around and a few industrious students employ a clever way of cheating to earn their A's so both the hard working students and cheating students all receive A's and extra perks from the professor. when told about the cheating by other students, the professor disregards their complaints simply saying that all that matters is the A, it doesn't matter how you get there.

the next test rolls around, not surprisingly everyone cheats ( including the hard working students ) and gets their A. the professor,  seeing a problem with his grade distribution starts giving out fewer perks since obviously everyone can't be exceptional.  

some students become disgruntled and decide that for the next exam, aside from cheating to get their A, they'll also work to inhibit other students' efforts to reduce the other students' test scores. some even outright bribe the professor which, surprisingly, actually works. fewer A's are given out.  the hard-working, cheating, bribing ( or combination of any/all/none ) students are lavishly praised again for their A-creating abilities. any complaints from other students are ignored by the professor, who wants to maintain favor from the A-creators.  when questioned about his grading and rewarding polices by students the professor simply explains again that all that matters is getting the A, it doesn't matter how you get there..

obviously this is a pretty ----y example of the complexities of things but you get the general picture :)