Do they really want peace?
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2011/09/201192714659256576.html
Israel okays new buildings in east Jerusalem while Palestinians await UN vote
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Doesn't seem like it. They're government has gotten further and further away from peace in the last few years. It's a shame. They came close back during clinton's years, but Arafat ended up rejecting that plan for no apparent reason. Never been close since.
Wow, that's a pretty hardcore flip-off... I almost admire it. Nobody ever accused Netanyahu of being shy. :P
Doesn't seem like it. They're government has gotten further and further away from peace in the last few years. It's a shame. They came close back during clinton's years, but Arafat ended up rejecting that plan for no apparent reason. Never been close since.
sonicare
He balked because he tried to get the right for "return", and that was never on the table. I truly believe that marked the end of any chance of peace, and the inevitable death of the Palestinians as a people, and the birth of them as a diaspora.
Israel is like a child, is this their response to the palastinian UN bid? Pathetic. When the palastinians want statehood, (we) the west have gone against it, America even used it's Veto to block the bid. Meanwhile in Israel, where settlements are being built ILLEGALLY, no one bats an eyelid. Hypocrisy. Joker_268I would say it's childish to expect that you'll reclaim a conquered land through intifadas, failed diplomacy, and a DOA bid at the UN. Israel isn't being childish so much as it's systematically continuing existing policies having largely contained the Palestinians. It's even more childish to even consider the legality of settlements in the current context, or expect defunct agreements that are broken constantly by both sides to be enforced. What is Arabic for, "it's all over, but the shouting?" Other Arab nations have blocked off the Palestinians for the most part, and don't want them. Israel is never going to cede what they fought for, whatever you think of the morality of how that occured or the current situation. The Palestinian people are in an awful position, but banging their heads against the same wall isn't going to change anything, just continue the damage to their people. Right... wrong... this is international relations; to expect morality in this is what is truly childish.
Yes.Do they really want piece?
sherman-tank1
Yes.I love how I spell peace. Wait a second I didn't spell peace wrong. I see what you did there.[QUOTE="sherman-tank1"]
Do they really want piece?
Victorious_Fize
Frankly, I'm starting to think that Israel has never ceased their pursuit of an Israeli state based on biblical borders (in other words enveloping all of Palestine), they've only vocally renounced the idea. They keep moaning about no one recognizing their right to exist, but I doubt they ever respected Palestinians' right to exist.
Yes, and Arafat burned that in trash bin of history. After that, I think you're right, they gave up on diplomacy; they're getting peace through other means.Frankly, I'm starting to think that Israel has never ceased their pursuit of an Israeli state based on biblical borders (in other words enveloping all of Palestine), they've only vocally renounced the idea. They keep moaning about no one recognizing their right to exist, but I doubt they ever respected Palestinians' right to exist.
theone86
[QUOTE="theone86"]Yes, and Arafat burned that in trash bin of history. After that, I think you're right, they gave up on diplomacy; they're getting peace through other means. Is building settlements in Palestinian's future capital part of this great peace process?Frankly, I'm starting to think that Israel has never ceased their pursuit of an Israeli state based on biblical borders (in other words enveloping all of Palestine), they've only vocally renounced the idea. They keep moaning about no one recognizing their right to exist, but I doubt they ever respected Palestinians' right to exist.
Frame_Dragger
Frankly, I'm starting to think that Israel has never ceased their pursuit of an Israeli state based on biblical borders (in other words enveloping all of Palestine), they've only vocally renounced the idea. They keep moaning about no one recognizing their right to exist, but I doubt they ever respected Palestinians' right to exist.
Yes, and Arafat burned that in trash bin of history. After that, I think you're right, they gave up on diplomacy; they're getting peace through other means. Is building settlements in Palestinian's future capital part of this great peace process? Future capital? Oh... that's good. No no.... the peace process ended when Arafat dropped it on the ground and stomped on it. After that, it's been about the decline of Palestinian government, social order, and a rise of Israel's capacity to simply wall them off. I've been clear that as of now I don't believe there is anything like a peace process... and I explicitly stated that Arafat ended hopes of a Palestinian state and instead forged a diasporic future at best. That Israelis not eager to compromise where no compromise is required of them, and in the face of people who want them dead shouldn't be a shock. They can, and literally ARE rolling right over them, and as long as nobody stops them, it will continue. I'm not offering moral justification, just the facts on the ground."yeah Palestine stop your bid for the UN, we will totally stop building settlements and talk peace" If the Palestinians want to be recognized talking to Israel won't do it as it is run by fundamentalist hardliners.weezyfbAs compared to the Palestine leadership(s), which are an "Abu Mazen" esque minority, and a majority Hamas/Hezbollah/Fatah crowd. You know, reasonable folk who just want to get along. :roll:
East Jerusalem & the Old City are part of the areas Israel sees as part of them( the whole of Jerusalem being Israels capital),
and are the least likely to be given to a new nation
A new Palestine won't get all the pre 6Day war land.
Tha said, I want this ***** settled already, hopefully this UN push will help separate both nations once and for all
(or establish a split but equal 1 state 2 parts, like Austria-Hungry, but that is highly unlikely)
East Jerusalem & the Old City are part of the areas Israel sees as part of them( the whole of Jerusalem being Israels capital),
and are the least likely to be given to a new nation
A new Palestine won't get all the pre 6Day war land.
Tha said, I want this ***** settled already, hopefully this UN push will help separate both nations once and for all
(or establish a split but equal 1 state 2 parts, like Austria-Hungry, but that is highly unlikely)
I wish I shared even your guarded optimism, but I don't see an end to this that isn't the slow dissipation of the Palestinian people. There is no longer any real basis for peace, and no strong motivation for Israel to change their policies. I think this UN bid is Mr. Abbas' attempt to leave a legacy that isn't the disintratin of PLO unity into fractious camps. Remember that this man was a founder of Fatah... to see what came of the PLO must be an agony for him. I suspect he wants to have tried something relatively grand, even if it is ultimately only ever going to be a grand gesture.[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"] Yes, and Arafat burned that in trash bin of history. After that, I think you're right, they gave up on diplomacy; they're getting peace through other means.Frame_DraggerIs building settlements in Palestinian's future capital part of this great peace process? Future capital? Oh... that's good. No no.... the peace process ended when Arafat dropped it on the ground and stomped on it. After that, it's been about the decline of Palestinian government, social order, and a rise of Israel's capacity to simply wall them off. I've been clear that as of now I don't believe there is anything like a peace process... and I explicitly stated that Arafat ended hopes of a Palestinian state and instead forged a diasporic future at best. That Israelis not eager to compromise where no compromise is required of them, and in the face of people who want them dead shouldn't be a shock. They can, and literally ARE rolling right over them, and as long as nobody stops them, it will continue. I'm not offering moral justification, just the facts on the ground. You're blaming the Palentinians for the failure of the peace process and justifying Israeli agression...
[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] Is building settlements in Palestinian's future capital part of this great peace process?RedinkoFuture capital? Oh... that's good. No no.... the peace process ended when Arafat dropped it on the ground and stomped on it. After that, it's been about the decline of Palestinian government, social order, and a rise of Israel's capacity to simply wall them off. I've been clear that as of now I don't believe there is anything like a peace process... and I explicitly stated that Arafat ended hopes of a Palestinian state and instead forged a diasporic future at best. That Israelis not eager to compromise where no compromise is required of them, and in the face of people who want them dead shouldn't be a shock. They can, and literally ARE rolling right over them, and as long as nobody stops them, it will continue. I'm not offering moral justification, just the facts on the ground.
You're blaming the Palentinians for the failure of the peace process and justifying Israeli agression...
I'm blaming one man for the failure at a critical time, not a whole group of people who I think would happily turn the clock back and take that deal. Arafat, as far as anyone seems to know, was the sole reason that deal was rejected when it appeared that EVERYONE else except extremists on both sides were ready to put this aside. The rest is stating a likely course of history based on past and current behaviour, not a justifcation for it. I'm not saying that the rejection of peace gave Israel carte blanche, only that it marked what is clearly a turning point in relations. If you disagree, by all means do and please support your assertions, but recognize that I'm not justifying the actions of the entities involved, merely describing them.[QUOTE="Redinko"][QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"] Future capital? Oh... that's good. No no.... the peace process ended when Arafat dropped it on the ground and stomped on it. After that, it's been about the decline of Palestinian government, social order, and a rise of Israel's capacity to simply wall them off. I've been clear that as of now I don't believe there is anything like a peace process... and I explicitly stated that Arafat ended hopes of a Palestinian state and instead forged a diasporic future at best. That Israelis not eager to compromise where no compromise is required of them, and in the face of people who want them dead shouldn't be a shock. They can, and literally ARE rolling right over them, and as long as nobody stops them, it will continue. I'm not offering moral justification, just the facts on the ground.Frame_Dragger
You're blaming the Palentinians for the failure of the peace process and justifying Israeli agression...
I'm blaming one man for the failure at a critical time, not a whole group of people who I think would happily turn the clock back and take that deal. Arafat, as far as anyone seems to know, was the sole reason that deal was rejected when it appeared that EVERYONE else except extremists on both sides were ready to put this aside. The rest is stating a likely course of history based on past and current behaviour, not a justifcation for it. I'm not saying that the rejection of peace gave Israel carte blanche, only that it marked what is clearly a turning point in relations. If you disagree, by all means do and please support your assertions, but recognize that I'm not justifying the actions of the entities involved, merely describing them.That's fine and maybe I misunderstood. But still, was it really all Arafat's fault? Do you really know all the details of what happened behind closed doors? Also, if Isreal can justify this "turning point in realtions" as you say, and completely ignore the rights of the Palestinians, then how commited to peace were they in the first place? However, I do agree mostly with what you said. I only take a more critical view of Israel then perhaps you do.[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"] Yes, and Arafat burned that in trash bin of history. After that, I think you're right, they gave up on diplomacy; they're getting peace through other means.Frame_DraggerIs building settlements in Palestinian's future capital part of this great peace process? Future capital? Oh... that's good. No no.... the peace process ended when Arafat dropped it on the ground and stomped on it. After that, it's been about the decline of Palestinian government, social order, and a rise of Israel's capacity to simply wall them off. I've been clear that as of now I don't believe there is anything like a peace process... and I explicitly stated that Arafat ended hopes of a Palestinian state and instead forged a diasporic future at best. That Israelis not eager to compromise where no compromise is required of them, and in the face of people who want them dead shouldn't be a shock. They can, and literally ARE rolling right over them, and as long as nobody stops them, it will continue. I'm not offering moral justification, just the facts on the ground. You do realize Arafat is dead right? The past is past, there are still Palestinians living in Palestine, and those are ever defiled from their rights. Are you suggesting that because of Arafat's refusal of what it seems to be your idea of a peace process, somehow the Palestinians right to exists is no longer? Israel's need of compromise... exactly how is forcing Palestinians out of their homes in East Jerusalem, is Israeli compromise?
[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] Is building settlements in Palestinian's future capital part of this great peace process?Victorious_FizeFuture capital? Oh... that's good. No no.... the peace process ended when Arafat dropped it on the ground and stomped on it. After that, it's been about the decline of Palestinian government, social order, and a rise of Israel's capacity to simply wall them off. I've been clear that as of now I don't believe there is anything like a peace process... and I explicitly stated that Arafat ended hopes of a Palestinian state and instead forged a diasporic future at best. That Israelis not eager to compromise where no compromise is required of them, and in the face of people who want them dead shouldn't be a shock. They can, and literally ARE rolling right over them, and as long as nobody stops them, it will continue. I'm not offering moral justification, just the facts on the ground. You do realize Arafat is dead right? The past is past, there are still Palestinians living in Palestine, and those are ever defiled from their rights. Are you suggesting that because of Arafat's refusal of what it seems to be your idea of a peace process, somehow the Palestinians right to exists is no longer? Israel's need of compromise... exactly how is forcing Palestinians out of their homes in East Jerusalem, is Israeli compromise? Arafat is dead but Abu Mazen was his right hand man , they share the same ideology, so to me, they are one and the same. I think what he is suggesting is that because Arafat rejected the peace deal (which would have given him control over most of East Jerusalem too, the best offer the Palestinians would ever get) , it ruined chances for a peace treaty, the feeling in Israel is that they don't want peace, or at most, they want 2 states, one Palestinian , and one binational (as stated by their demands for a right of return , something thats echoed it seems by the Arab World). the left (ie , doves) in Israel got weaker and weaker since then , right now , the left in Israel is split up , and has a tarnished reputation because its represented just as much by far left activists (which most people see as traitors) as much as the respectable left in the form of the labour party. while some can talk peace, there were 2 rockets that landed yesterday in Israel, launched from Gaza , or the fact that a father and a baby were killed by Palestinian stone throwers (they were in a car, the stones caused the car to veer off the road and crash ), but nobody talks about that . Ive said it once, and I will say it again, most people in Israel do support (or rather accept) the idea of a Palestinian state, but at the same time, we have our security and demographic concerns which are generally swept under the carpet whenever we are asked to do something. also the Palestinians need to speak with 1 voice , Abu Mazen can say what he wants, but at the same time, half of his people are living under a different government, which says very different things, not to mention the other groups which don't listen to either, or even the fact that both Fatah and Hamas have military wings which don't always obey the political side of things.
[QUOTE="Redinko"]
You're blaming the Palentinians for the failure of the peace process and justifying Israeli agression...
I'm blaming one man for the failure at a critical time, not a whole group of people who I think would happily turn the clock back and take that deal. Arafat, as far as anyone seems to know, was the sole reason that deal was rejected when it appeared that EVERYONE else except extremists on both sides were ready to put this aside. The rest is stating a likely course of history based on past and current behaviour, not a justifcation for it. I'm not saying that the rejection of peace gave Israel carte blanche, only that it marked what is clearly a turning point in relations. If you disagree, by all means do and please support your assertions, but recognize that I'm not justifying the actions of the entities involved, merely describing them.That's fine and maybe I misunderstood. But still, was it really all Arafat's fault? Do you really know all the details of what happened behind closed doors? Also, if Isreal can justify this "turning point in realtions" as you say, and completely ignore the rights of the Palestinians, then how commited to peace were they in the first place? However, I do agree mostly with what you said. I only take a more critical view of Israel then perhaps you do. We know most of the details because frankly, at the end there was so little daylight left between the two positions taken. So MUCH was on the table, had been rejected by one side or other, and agreed upon by both sides that the idea of back room dealing at the END (obviously to build the agreemnt was done in private) isn't feasible. Arafat was very clear in asserting a desire, AFTER the last possible moment, that it was all based on the right of return... which was the same as stepping on the whole thing. As for commitment to peace, once again both sides had an agreement drafted that proves BOTH sides were willing (until Arafat's move at the end) to committ to peace. For some time after there was the usual on-again, off-again behaviour, but when a policy of containment instead of interaction was used AND largely halted attacks in Israel... that sems to be the point at which the general Israeli populace gave up on peace through diplomacy. I'm not saying they should have, because the results of this policy won't hold (I'm putting side rights and wrongs in each case obviously... just the realpolitik), and when it breaks it will be that much harder to find a moment's peace. With Egypt and Turkey walking away from Israel, it may be that time has come... we'll see.[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] Is building settlements in Palestinian's future capital part of this great peace process?Victorious_FizeFuture capital? Oh... that's good. No no.... the peace process ended when Arafat dropped it on the ground and stomped on it. After that, it's been about the decline of Palestinian government, social order, and a rise of Israel's capacity to simply wall them off. I've been clear that as of now I don't believe there is anything like a peace process... and I explicitly stated that Arafat ended hopes of a Palestinian state and instead forged a diasporic future at best. That Israelis not eager to compromise where no compromise is required of them, and in the face of people who want them dead shouldn't be a shock. They can, and literally ARE rolling right over them, and as long as nobody stops them, it will continue. I'm not offering moral justification, just the facts on the ground. You do realize Arafat is dead right? The past is past, there are still Palestinians living in Palestine, and those are ever defiled from their rights. Are you suggesting that because of Arafat's refusal of what it seems to be your idea of a peace process, somehow the Palestinians right to exists is no longer? Israel's need of compromise... exactly how is forcing Palestinians out of their homes in East Jerusalem, is Israeli compromise? What @Darkman2007 said. Yes, I realize Arafat is dead, and with it a united Palestinian government, goals, etc. The issue isn't holding something against a dead man, and punishing his people, the issue is that he seems to have represented the only authoritarian and populist figure the Palestinians were going to get. Now, under a fractious serious of governments and organizations, there is no ONE to negotiate with. Now, the doves in Israel have an even steeper hill to climb, and why would they even try with Hamas or Hezbollah? As for Abu Mazen, he doesn't have the power or control, and frankly it's not politically viable in Israel to try with Mazen, another founder of Fatah, what failed with his old boss.
i don't trust aljazeera,i've seen an interview with their manager when he clearly stated that aljazeera is not unbiassed towards palestine/israel issues.
reason for that was that if he accepted he would of lost control of Palestine as a new government would be formed he wanted to for a government that he was still incharge of. As for the building. Isreal obivously is getting ready for a prolonged occupation. Also I'm suprised how fast they're gonna start building these 600 homes ( and counting) construction starts 2 months from now. They want to burry East jeruslem behiend hordes of houses so that they can demand annexation durring peace negotiations that'll probably happen..... eventually? At this rate I think the settlements will reach nablus and Ramallah before any negotiations start.Doesn't seem like it. They're government has gotten further and further away from peace in the last few years. It's a shame. They came close back during clinton's years, but Arafat ended up rejecting that plan for no apparent reason. Never been close since.
sonicare
[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"] Future capital? Oh... that's good. No no.... the peace process ended when Arafat dropped it on the ground and stomped on it. After that, it's been about the decline of Palestinian government, social order, and a rise of Israel's capacity to simply wall them off. I've been clear that as of now I don't believe there is anything like a peace process... and I explicitly stated that Arafat ended hopes of a Palestinian state and instead forged a diasporic future at best. That Israelis not eager to compromise where no compromise is required of them, and in the face of people who want them dead shouldn't be a shock. They can, and literally ARE rolling right over them, and as long as nobody stops them, it will continue. I'm not offering moral justification, just the facts on the ground.Frame_DraggerYou do realize Arafat is dead right? The past is past, there are still Palestinians living in Palestine, and those are ever defiled from their rights. Are you suggesting that because of Arafat's refusal of what it seems to be your idea of a peace process, somehow the Palestinians right to exists is no longer? Israel's need of compromise... exactly how is forcing Palestinians out of their homes in East Jerusalem, is Israeli compromise? What @Darkman2007 said. Yes, I realize Arafat is dead, and with it a united Palestinian government, goals, etc. The issue isn't holding something against a dead man, and punishing his people, the issue is that he seems to have represented the only authoritarian and populist figure the Palestinians were going to get. Now, under a fractious serious of governments and organizations, there is no ONE to negotiate with. Now, the doves in Israel have an even steeper hill to climb, and why would they even try with Hamas or Hezbollah? As for Abu Mazen, he doesn't have the power or control, and frankly it's not politically viable in Israel to try with Mazen, another founder of Fatah, what failed with his old boss. Im sure someone will say something about the Fatah-Hamas deal earlier this year so let me get it out of the way. its a show, Fatah and Hamas are not united , if they were ,they would become one continous government, in fact , when they signed the agreement in Cairo , The Egyptians had to nearly force Abu Mazen and Khaleed Mashaal to meet . and can anyone blame them for not wanting to talk to each other? at one point Hamas gunmen were arresting Fatah officials in Gaza and throwing them from high rise buildings (why waste bullets when gravity does the job), while in the West Bank , Fatah has been keeping Hamas down . in fact in an ironic twist, it was probably Israel's precense in the West Bank that made sure Hamas didn't take over that as well. its funny, but I can remember a few years ago , a high ranking Fatah member was doing an interview for an Israeli news talk show (his Hebrew was surprisingly good), and he tried to make it look as though he could come back to Gaza. when they asked him "well why aren't you in Gaza right now? " he said "there are issues" , their answer was "the issue is that Hamas will throw you from floor 18 of a high rise building" , to which he couldn't really respond to. the Palestinians are not united in the slightest , at least not on a political level, and nobody sane in Israel is going to accept a Palestinian state where rockets are fired by one group while Fatah can say "don't blame us, it wasn't us". if a rocket lands , especially on Tel Aviv or Haifa, its game over, and more people in Israel will be more receptive to the extreme figures in Israel.
i don't trust aljazeera,i've seen an interview with their manager when he clearly stated that aljazeera is not unbiassed towards palestine/israel issues.
VaguelyTagged
I certainly wouldn't trust them, but I think they can be a useful source of information, but not alone. There is some benefit in getting information from a source who's biases are entirely open. They can get some very interesting reports though, just not this kind of thing... and NEVER without other sources. In today's news, it's less about finding one point, and more about triangulating to find a region in wich the truth MIGHT be. Sad... but there it is. That said, in the spirit of full disclosure I'm not a fan of aljazeera at all, so this is very much a devil's advocate position for me, but I think it's correct despite my own strong dislike of the organization.
Doesn't seem like it. They're government has gotten further and further away from peace in the last few years. It's a shame. They came close back during clinton's years, but Arafat ended up rejecting that plan for no apparent reason. Never been close since.
sonicare
No apparent reason? Have you even looked at the actual deal Israel offered? What it offered was that the majority of land still be under Israeli martial law, they have to officially give up EVEN MORE land in the West Bank to Israel for settling, and they were only allowed to govern a few square miles completely.. That was no plan..
[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] Arafat is dead but Abu Mazen was his right hand man , they share the same ideology, so to me, they are one and the same. I think what he is suggesting is that because Arafat rejected the peace deal (which would have given him control over most of East Jerusalem too, the best offer the Palestinians would ever get) , it ruined chances for a peace treaty, the feeling in Israel is that they don't want peace, or at most, they want 2 states, one Palestinian , and one binational (as stated by their demands for a right of return , something thats echoed it seems by the Arab World). the left (ie , doves) in Israel got weaker and weaker since then , right now , the left in Israel is split up , and has a tarnished reputation because its represented just as much by far left activists (which most people see as traitors) as much as the respectable left in the form of the labour party. while some can talk peace, there were 2 rockets that landed yesterday in Israel, launched from Gaza , or the fact that a father and a baby were killed by Palestinian stone throwers (they were in a car, the stones caused the car to veer off the road and crash ), but nobody talks about that . Ive said it once, and I will say it again, most people in Israel do support (or rather accept) the idea of a Palestinian state, but at the same time, we have our security and demographic concerns which are generally swept under the carpet whenever we are asked to do something. also the Palestinians need to speak with 1 voice , Abu Mazen can say what he wants, but at the same time, half of his people are living under a different government, which says very different things, not to mention the other groups which don't listen to either, or even the fact that both Fatah and Hamas have military wings which don't always obey the political side of things.Darkman2007I wasn't even condemning Yasser, I was just saying he's dead and the Palestinian question still persists. "Most" is not enough, East Jerusalem, in its entirety, was specifically defined for Palestinians, and was, and is still, illegally occupied by the 67 war (resolution 242). Why should Israel becoming binational (God knows how) because of the right of return for Palestinian exodus matter? It is a human right and should be exercised by anyone, and is approved by the United Nations body. Israel is a secular democracy based on justice and multiconfessionalism, is it not? What gives Jews any more right than those expelled Palestinians? Also, Hamas is a debatable issue, yes, but three things: 1- In absolutely no way does that give Israel the right to enlarge their illegal settlements in East Jerusalem, or anywhere else for the matter. This, before anything else, should be noted, as this is what this topic is about. 2- Hamas isn't as real of a threat as Israel put it, as seen by the Gaza war. It is also interesting to note Israel isn't all that far behind Hamas in terms of targeting civilian population, again, as seen in the Gaza war. 3- Illegal settlements are a prime example of Israel not abiding the political side of things as well. Left or right, peace is the answer. This farce certainly can't outlive itself. The way I see it, Israel isn't really committed to peace. Else, why the settlements? lol, the whole concept of a 2 state solution , is that there is peace between a Jewish state, and an Arab state, and you can't have a Jewish state if half of its people are Arab , its really quite as simple as that, and most Israelies would see that request as an attempt to destory the state, hence any suspiction towards any Arab initiative. , the Palestinians can live in their own state , and sadly they will have to accept that, Israel is 20% Arab anyways, which is quite ironic, because the Palestinian Ambassedor to the US recently said that the Palestinian state will have no Jews in it, I wonder how the Arabs would feel if we said "Israel should be free of Arabs" , the accusation of racism would be heard in about a second. and the reason why no one will stop the settlers is because no one in Israel is willing to fight his own brother for the sake of someone else, unless there is a tangiable alternative, Israel left Gaza by draggin the settlers out of there, the sight of seeing Jews fighting each other is not a pretty sight, especially not to other Jews , and look what we got because of it, rockets, thousands of them. frankly, the only reason why there are no rockets launched from the West Bank is exactly because Israel is there. and if one wanted to reduce civilian casualties, one should tell Hamas to come fight in the open , considering them saying how "Gaza will be a graveyard for the Jews" , its really quite cowardly of them. they are lions in front of a microphone, and rabbits when fighting. ...if Abbas said that it wouldn't matter if jews were in the new palestine then I'm pretty sure what an ambassador said doesn't matter in the slightest. Also although i hate hamas in almost every aspect The goldstone report showed that there wasn't much intermingling of hamas between the civilian population. Goldstone was 3rd party unaffiliated with either side. Hamas did commit war crimes in the gaza invasion but Isreal committed way more.
EDIT: first post made no sense XD
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] I wasn't even condemning Yasser, I was just saying he's dead and the Palestinian question still persists. "Most" is not enough, East Jerusalem, in its entirety, was specifically defined for Palestinians, and was, and is still, illegally occupied by the 67 war (resolution 242). Why should Israel becoming binational (God knows how) because of the right of return for Palestinian exodus matter? It is a human right and should be exercised by anyone, and is approved by the United Nations body. Israel is a secular democracy based on justice and multiconfessionalism, is it not? What gives Jews any more right than those expelled Palestinians? Also, Hamas is a debatable issue, yes, but three things: 1- In absolutely no way does that give Israel the right to enlarge their illegal settlements in East Jerusalem, or anywhere else for the matter. This, before anything else, should be noted, as this is what this topic is about. 2- Hamas isn't as real of a threat as Israel put it, as seen by the Gaza war. It is also interesting to note Israel isn't all that far behind Hamas in terms of targeting civilian population, again, as seen in the Gaza war. 3- Illegal settlements are a prime example of Israel not abiding the political side of things as well. Left or right, peace is the answer. This farce certainly can't outlive itself. The way I see it, Israel isn't really committed to peace. Else, why the settlements?mayceVlol, the whole concept of a 2 state solution , is that there is peace between a Jewish state, and an Arab state, and you can't have a Jewish state if half of its people are Arab , its really quite as simple as that, and most Israelies would see that request as an attempt to destory the state, hence any suspiction towards any Arab initiative. , the Palestinians can live in their own state , and sadly they will have to accept that, Israel is 20% Arab anyways, which is quite ironic, because the Palestinian Ambassedor to the US recently said that the Palestinian state will have no Jews in it, I wonder how the Arabs would feel if we said "Israel should be free of Arabs" , the accusation of racism would be heard in about a second. and the reason why no one will stop the settlers is because no one in Israel is willing to fight his own brother for the sake of someone else, unless there is a tangiable alternative, Israel left Gaza by draggin the settlers out of there, the sight of seeing Jews fighting each other is not a pretty sight, especially not to other Jews , and look what we got because of it, rockets, thousands of them. frankly, the only reason why there are no rockets launched from the West Bank is exactly because Israel is there. and if one wanted to reduce civilian casualties, one should tell Hamas to come fight in the open , considering them saying how "Gaza will be a graveyard for the Jews" , its really quite cowardly of them. they are lions in front of a microphone, and rabbits when fighting. ...if Abbas said that it wouldn't matter if jews were in the new palestine then I'm pretty sure what an ambassador said. Also although i hate hamas in almost every aspect The goldstone report showed that there was that much intermingling of hamas between the civilian population. Goldstone was 3rd party unaffiliated with either side. Hamas did commit war crimes in the gaza invasion but Isreal committed way more.
and yet, at least in Israel there were investigations, there were even arrests if I remember correctly, people got punished for any mistakes made.
on the other hand, Hamas does nothing, it praises those who kill civilians, as long as those civilians are Jews, even Goldstone admitted this,
look, we could sit here and blame one side or the other, but at the end of the day here, no one is clean , in a war , everybody has blood on their hands.
really to convince the Israeli public that their state is 100% legitimate, Palestinians only need to show that they do not want to destroy it, either by force or through demographics, do that, and things become easier already.
yes, that is the current attitude in Israel, to a certain extent.
and the Palestinians need to speak with one voice, Im not saying they should fight each other, but not speaking with multiple voices makes negotiations much easier.
Goldstone was 3rd party unaffiliated with either side. Hamas did commit war crimes in the gaza invasion but Isreal committed way more.
mayceV
LMAO UNHRC reports. You might want to google them and the Goldstone report itself.
/also ^ f*** you previous post me, this doesn't count.
Oh no worries I know that hamas is not clean. I'm actually very cautious cause in college here there are hamas contacts and recruiters. If I talk to the wrong person my life is ruined. but also- why do the isrealis care what the majority is? seriously speaking its not like they'd die if more palestinians came to isreal. Also Its very doubtful anyone who's not an immediate refugee living in camps would actually exercise right of return. that estimate is tops 1.5 million people. And its not like all of them will come back in a day it'll be gradual over time a yearly rate the las proposed one was around 250,000 per year. even so 1.5+1.5= 3 million. That's not even close to majority. Maybe in the generations to come but either way palestinian arabs have more kids then every other kind of arab so its kinda futile unless Isreal starts booting people out in the comming generations.
EDIT: In Italics
(the whole "Sushi and Nargila" comment was certainly uncalled for)Darkman2007lol That's absolutely what it was for me, though (replace sushi w/ pizza, though).
Oh no worries I know that hamas is not clean. I'm actually very cautious cause in college here there are hamas contacts and recruiters. If I talk to the wrong person my life is ruined. but also- why do the isrealis care what the majority is? seriously speaking its not like they'd die if more palestinians came to isreal. Also Its very doubtful anyone who's not an immediate refugee living in camps would actually exercise right of return. that estimate is tops 1.5 million people. And its not like all of them will come back in a day it'll be gradual over time a yearly rate the las proposed one was around 250,000 per year. even so 1.5+1.5= 3 million. That's not even close to majority. Maybe in the generations to come but either way arabs have more kids then every other kind of arab so its kinda futile unless Isreal starts booting people out in the comming generations.mayceVthe demographic time bomb situation will be dealt with when it comes, as for why we don't want a majority or a near majority, its a simple fact of national identity would Palestinians agree if 40% of their population was Jewish? because then the state of Palestine cannot be called a Palestinian state, because close to half the population would be Jewish . this is especially true since Israel is 20% Arab anyways, thats a bigger minority than alot of countries out there. in the same manner, a Jewish state is very important to the average Israeli, its a core value that won't be negotiated upon, so whenver someone like Abu Mazen talks about it, it makes the average Israeli think its basically an attempt to destroy the state in a subversive way. in relation to birth rates, frankly religious Jews have as many children as Arabs, its not uncommon to see religious families with 5-10 children , the bigger problem is that they do not always participate in the workforce or in higher education , so that can be problematic.
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"](the whole "Sushi and Nargila" comment was certainly uncalled for)grape_of_wrathlol That's absolutely what it was for me, though (replace sushi w/ pizza, though).
I found it a little funny that just about everybody went to those groups, heck even Baruch Marzel and his group went.
now we just need to see what Tarchtenberg's findings and recommendations are, though we all know pretty much everybody won't like it, protesters will say its not enough , Gantz is warning against cutting back army funding, not to mention the doctors' protest.
its all part of why the government is not focused on external affairs, there are enough problems at home lol.
Bibi can argue with the rest of the world, they don't elect him , he can't ignore his electorate
Do they really want peace?
sherman-tank1
Uh no.... what on Earth makes you think they want peace?
[QUOTE="sherman-tank1"]
Do they really want peace?
Johnny_Rock
Uh no.... what on Earth makes you think they want peace?
I want peace, so here is one. on the other hand, Im no fool , there are certain security and demographic issues that need to be addressed, its really quite as simple as that.[QUOTE="Joker_268"]Israel is like a child, is this their response to the palastinian UN bid? Pathetic. When the palastinians want statehood, (we) the west have gone against it, America even used it's Veto to block the bid. Meanwhile in Israel, where settlements are being built ILLEGALLY, no one bats an eyelid. Hypocrisy. Frame_DraggerI would say it's childish to expect that you'll reclaim a conquered land through intifadas, failed diplomacy, and a DOA bid at the UN. Israel isn't being childish so much as it's systematically continuing existing policies having largely contained the Palestinians. It's even more childish to even consider the legality of settlements in the current context, or expect defunct agreements that are broken constantly by both sides to be enforced. What is Arabic for, "it's all over, but the shouting?" Other Arab nations have blocked off the Palestinians for the most part, and don't want them. Israel is never going to cede what they fought for, whatever you think of the morality of how that occured or the current situation. The Palestinian people are in an awful position, but banging their heads against the same wall isn't going to change anything, just continue the damage to their people. Right... wrong... this is international relations; to expect morality in this is what is truly childish.The legality of settlements? By international laws, the building of these 'settlements' is illegal. Oh and all 22 members of the Arab league fully support the bid. Still, can't deny that fact that israel can do whatever it wants and pretty much get away with it.
[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] Arafat is dead but Abu Mazen was his right hand man , they share the same ideology, so to me, they are one and the same. I think what he is suggesting is that because Arafat rejected the peace deal (which would have given him control over most of East Jerusalem too, the best offer the Palestinians would ever get) , it ruined chances for a peace treaty, the feeling in Israel is that they don't want peace, or at most, they want 2 states, one Palestinian , and one binational (as stated by their demands for a right of return , something thats echoed it seems by the Arab World). the left (ie , doves) in Israel got weaker and weaker since then , right now , the left in Israel is split up , and has a tarnished reputation because its represented just as much by far left activists (which most people see as traitors) as much as the respectable left in the form of the labour party. while some can talk peace, there were 2 rockets that landed yesterday in Israel, launched from Gaza , or the fact that a father and a baby were killed by Palestinian stone throwers (they were in a car, the stones caused the car to veer off the road and crash ), but nobody talks about that . Ive said it once, and I will say it again, most people in Israel do support (or rather accept) the idea of a Palestinian state, but at the same time, we have our security and demographic concerns which are generally swept under the carpet whenever we are asked to do something. also the Palestinians need to speak with 1 voice , Abu Mazen can say what he wants, but at the same time, half of his people are living under a different government, which says very different things, not to mention the other groups which don't listen to either, or even the fact that both Fatah and Hamas have military wings which don't always obey the political side of things.Darkman2007I wasn't even condemning Yasser, I was just saying he's dead and the Palestinian question still persists. "Most" is not enough, East Jerusalem, in its entirety, was specifically defined for Palestinians, and was, and is still, illegally occupied by the 67 war (resolution 242). Why should Israel becoming binational (God knows how) because of the right of return for Palestinian exodus matter? It is a human right and should be exercised by anyone, and is approved by the United Nations body. Israel is a secular democracy based on justice and multiconfessionalism, is it not? What gives Jews any more right than those expelled Palestinians? Also, Hamas is a debatable issue, yes, but three things: 1- In absolutely no way does that give Israel the right to enlarge their illegal settlements in East Jerusalem, or anywhere else for the matter. This, before anything else, should be noted, as this is what this topic is about. 2- Hamas isn't as real of a threat as Israel put it, as seen by the Gaza war. It is also interesting to note Israel isn't all that far behind Hamas in terms of targeting civilian population, again, as seen in the Gaza war. 3- Illegal settlements are a prime example of Israel not abiding the political side of things as well. Left or right, peace is the answer. This farce certainly can't outlive itself. The way I see it, Israel isn't really committed to peace. Else, why the settlements? lol, the whole concept of a 2 state solution , is that there is peace between a Jewish state, and an Arab state, and you can't have a Jewish state if half of its people are Arab , its really quite as simple as that, and most Israelies would see that request as an attempt to destory the state, hence any suspiction towards any Arab initiative. , the Palestinians can live in their own state , and sadly they will have to accept that, Israel is 20% Arab anyways, which is quite ironic, because the Palestinian Ambassedor to the US recently said that the Palestinian state will have no Jews in it, I wonder how the Arabs would feel if we said "Israel should be free of Arabs" , the accusation of racism would be heard in about a second. and the reason why no one will stop the settlers is because no one in Israel is willing to fight his own brother for the sake of someone else, unless there is a tangiable alternative, Israel left Gaza by draggin the settlers out of there, the sight of seeing Jews fighting each other is not a pretty sight, especially not to other Jews , and look what we got because of it, rockets, thousands of them. frankly, the only reason why there are no rockets launched from the West Bank is exactly because Israel is there. and if one wanted to reduce civilian casualties, one should tell Hamas to come fight in the open , considering them saying how "Gaza will be a graveyard for the Jews" , its really quite cowardly of them. they are lions in front of a microphone, and rabbits when fighting.
You did not counter what I said... but we'll get back to that later.
The whole concept of a 2 state solution, is that there is a peace between Israel, and Palestine. Israel can claim whatever it wants to be, but it can not force it upon other people. As Abu Mazin splendidly put it "Go to the UN and call yourselves whatever you want, we are not the party to address", actually, I'd love a UN admission, it will indeed help sort a lot of things. In any rate, Palestinians lived there, hell, some of them even still have deeds. Exodus of war is illegal and they still retain their rights to their lands. Everyone knows that what Abbas said about the Jews was to appease to Hamas to ease tensions, but it still should draw condemnation none the less, and it certainly doesn't justifies Israel stooping to such low. Racism is racism no matter the place, an eye for an eye makes the world blind.
Pfft yeah right, Israeli destruction... Israel have one of the most powerful defense forces, and enjoys the strongest support from the only existing superpower in the world.
And stopping settlers, that you created, is now considered civil war? It's not for the sake of someone else, it is for your sake. You want peace, don't you? You'll have to acknowledge the legality of some Isreali terrotries and hand it over to their rightful people.
Israel specifically targeted densely populated area and utillized chemical warefare. Hamas maybe coward, but the IDF is just as bad.
Now, with all that said, and with all what will be said. Can you tell me how does building 1100 settlements in East Jerusalem contribute to peace?
lol, the whole concept of a 2 state solution , is that there is peace between a Jewish state, and an Arab state, and you can't have a Jewish state if half of its people are Arab , its really quite as simple as that, and most Israelies would see that request as an attempt to destory the state, hence any suspiction towards any Arab initiative. , the Palestinians can live in their own state , and sadly they will have to accept that, Israel is 20% Arab anyways, which is quite ironic, because the Palestinian Ambassedor to the US recently said that the Palestinian state will have no Jews in it, I wonder how the Arabs would feel if we said "Israel should be free of Arabs" , the accusation of racism would be heard in about a second. and the reason why no one will stop the settlers is because no one in Israel is willing to fight his own brother for the sake of someone else, unless there is a tangiable alternative, Israel left Gaza by draggin the settlers out of there, the sight of seeing Jews fighting each other is not a pretty sight, especially not to other Jews , and look what we got because of it, rockets, thousands of them. frankly, the only reason why there are no rockets launched from the West Bank is exactly because Israel is there. and if one wanted to reduce civilian casualties, one should tell Hamas to come fight in the open , considering them saying how "Gaza will be a graveyard for the Jews" , its really quite cowardly of them. they are lions in front of a microphone, and rabbits when fighting.[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] I wasn't even condemning Yasser, I was just saying he's dead and the Palestinian question still persists. "Most" is not enough, East Jerusalem, in its entirety, was specifically defined for Palestinians, and was, and is still, illegally occupied by the 67 war (resolution 242). Why should Israel becoming binational (God knows how) because of the right of return for Palestinian exodus matter? It is a human right and should be exercised by anyone, and is approved by the United Nations body. Israel is a secular democracy based on justice and multiconfessionalism, is it not? What gives Jews any more right than those expelled Palestinians? Also, Hamas is a debatable issue, yes, but three things: 1- In absolutely no way does that give Israel the right to enlarge their illegal settlements in East Jerusalem, or anywhere else for the matter. This, before anything else, should be noted, as this is what this topic is about. 2- Hamas isn't as real of a threat as Israel put it, as seen by the Gaza war. It is also interesting to note Israel isn't all that far behind Hamas in terms of targeting civilian population, again, as seen in the Gaza war. 3- Illegal settlements are a prime example of Israel not abiding the political side of things as well. Left or right, peace is the answer. This farce certainly can't outlive itself. The way I see it, Israel isn't really committed to peace. Else, why the settlements?Victorious_Fize
You did not counter what I said... but we'll get back to that later.
The whole concept of a 2 state solution, is that there is a peace between Israel, and Palestine. Israel can claim whatever it wants to be, but it can not force it upon other people. As Abu Mazin splendidly put it "Go to the UN and call yourselves whatever you want, we are not the party to address", actually, I'd love a UN admission, it will indeed help sort a lot of things. In any rate, Palestinians lived there, hell, some of them even still have deeds. Exodus of war is illegal and they still retain their rights to their lands. Everyone knows that what Abbas said about the Jews was to appease to Hamas to ease tensions, but it still should draw condemnation none the less, and it certainly doesn't justifies Israel stooping to such low. Racism is racism no matter the place, an eye for an eye makes the world blind.
Pfft yeah right, Israeli destruction... Israel have one of the most powerful defense forces, and enjoys the strongest support from the only existing superpower in the world.
And stopping settlers, that you created, is now considered civil war? It's not for the sake of someone else, it is for your sake. You want peace, don't you? You'll have to acknowledge the legality of some Isreali terrotries and hand it over to their rightful people.
Israel specifically targeted densely populated area and utillized chemical warefare. Hamas maybe coward, but the IDF is just as bad.
Now, with all that said, and with all what will be said. Can you tell me how does building 1100 settlements in East Jerusalem contribute to peace?
and at the same time , no one can force me to take in Palestinians, Israel is a Jewish state, and will remain a Jewish state, its really quite as simple as that,, its either a Jewish state (with all that comes with it) , or no peace, just as Palestinians don't agree to settlements (as that means their country would have a significant Jewish minority living in it) , in order to maintain their national identity and culture , so do I , its not a big demand or aspiration , nor is it racism , racism would be telling me to ruin my national character for someone else.
the other reason is that I don't want Israel to turn into another Lebanon , we have seen what an overly divided country can become.
but since we are talking about who owns what, am I getting compensation? somehow I doubt the Arab world will pay anything, while asking me to take in millions of refugees which really will have a country of their own to go to. frankly the money the Arab world made from confiscating Jewish property in the 2nd half of the 20th Century could quite easily pay for the Palestinians and then some.
and yes, destruction of Israel as a Jewish state by demographics is still destorying Israel .
I want peace, but Im not going to shoot myself in the head while doing so , if my security and demographic concerns are not addressed , then Im not going to have internal conflicts which does nothing for me.
if the Palestinians want me to go against my own people, they have to prove to me that my concerns will be addressed.
settlements don't help peace , but its not as though anybody else is doing something for peace.
[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] lol, the whole concept of a 2 state solution , is that there is peace between a Jewish state, and an Arab state, and you can't have a Jewish state if half of its people are Arab , its really quite as simple as that, and most Israelies would see that request as an attempt to destory the state, hence any suspiction towards any Arab initiative. , the Palestinians can live in their own state , and sadly they will have to accept that, Israel is 20% Arab anyways, which is quite ironic, because the Palestinian Ambassedor to the US recently said that the Palestinian state will have no Jews in it, I wonder how the Arabs would feel if we said "Israel should be free of Arabs" , the accusation of racism would be heard in about a second. and the reason why no one will stop the settlers is because no one in Israel is willing to fight his own brother for the sake of someone else, unless there is a tangiable alternative, Israel left Gaza by draggin the settlers out of there, the sight of seeing Jews fighting each other is not a pretty sight, especially not to other Jews , and look what we got because of it, rockets, thousands of them. frankly, the only reason why there are no rockets launched from the West Bank is exactly because Israel is there. and if one wanted to reduce civilian casualties, one should tell Hamas to come fight in the open , considering them saying how "Gaza will be a graveyard for the Jews" , its really quite cowardly of them. they are lions in front of a microphone, and rabbits when fighting.Darkman2007
You did not counter what I said... but we'll get back to that later.
The whole concept of a 2 state solution, is that there is a peace between Israel, and Palestine. Israel can claim whatever it wants to be, but it can not force it upon other people. As Abu Mazin splendidly put it "Go to the UN and call yourselves whatever you want, we are not the party to address", actually, I'd love a UN admission, it will indeed help sort a lot of things. In any rate, Palestinians lived there, hell, some of them even still have deeds. Exodus of war is illegal and they still retain their rights to their lands. Everyone knows that what Abbas said about the Jews was to appease to Hamas to ease tensions, but it still should draw condemnation none the less, and it certainly doesn't justifies Israel stooping to such low. Racism is racism no matter the place, an eye for an eye makes the world blind.
Pfft yeah right, Israeli destruction... Israel have one of the most powerful defense forces, and enjoys the strongest support from the only existing superpower in the world.
And stopping settlers, that you created, is now considered civil war? It's not for the sake of someone else, it is for your sake. You want peace, don't you? You'll have to acknowledge the legality of some Isreali terrotries and hand it over to their rightful people.
Israel specifically targeted densely populated area and utillized chemical warefare. Hamas maybe coward, but the IDF is just as bad.
Now, with all that said, and with all what will be said. Can you tell me how does building 1100 settlements in East Jerusalem contribute to peace?
and at the same time , no one can force me to take in Palestinians, Israel is a Jewish state, and will remain a Jewish state, its really quite as simple as that,, its either a Jewish state (with all that comes with it) , or no peace, just as Palestinians don't agree to settlements (as that means their country would have a significant Jewish minority living in it) , in order to maintain their national identity , so do I , its not a big demand or aspiration. but since we are talking about who owns what, am I getting compensation? somehow I doubt the Arab world will pay anything, while asking me to take in millions of refugees which really will have a country of their own to go to. frankly the money the Arab world made from confiscating Jewish property in the 2nd half of the 20th Century could quite easily pay for the Palestinians and then some. and yes, destruction of Israel as a Jewish state by demographics is still destorying Israel , I want peace, but Im not going to shoot myself in the head while doing so , if my security and demographic concerns are not addressed , then Im not going to have internal conflicts which does nothing for me. if the Palestinians want me to go against my own people, they have to prove to me that my concerns will be addressed.Nice, expell people and refuse to have them back. If Israel can't handle Palestinians right to return (but somehow magically does well for Jews), maybe Israel was a mistake? At least Americans are taking care of the nativist...
Like I said, be what you want to be, however, don't force it on other people if you have no legality to it. There is currently no admission in the United Nations of the claim, therefore Palestine is not obliged to it.
Also, as how Tzipi defines the Jewish state: "These two goals of Israel as a Jewish and a democratic state must coexist and not contradict each other. So, what does that mean, a Jewish state? It is not only a matter of the number of Jews who live in Israel. It is not just a matter of numbers but a matter of values. The Jewish state is a matter of values, but it is not just a matter of religion, it is also a matter of nationality. And a Jewish state is not a monopoly of rabbis. It is not. It is about the nature of the State of Israel. It is about Jewish tradition. It is about Jewish history, regardless of the question of what each and every Israeli citizen does in his own home on Saturdays and what he does on the Jewish holidays. We need to maintain the nature of the State of Israel, the character of the State of Israel, because this is the raison d'etre of the State of Israel."
So in other words it's not about the majority.
Again: nobody wants you to fight your own. These settlements are illegal. There is no question about the need for evacuation.
And again: how does building 1100 settlements in East Jerusalem contribute to peace?
and at the same time , no one can force me to take in Palestinians, Israel is a Jewish state, and will remain a Jewish state, its really quite as simple as that,, its either a Jewish state (with all that comes with it) , or no peace, just as Palestinians don't agree to settlements (as that means their country would have a significant Jewish minority living in it) , in order to maintain their national identity , so do I , its not a big demand or aspiration. but since we are talking about who owns what, am I getting compensation? somehow I doubt the Arab world will pay anything, while asking me to take in millions of refugees which really will have a country of their own to go to. frankly the money the Arab world made from confiscating Jewish property in the 2nd half of the 20th Century could quite easily pay for the Palestinians and then some. and yes, destruction of Israel as a Jewish state by demographics is still destorying Israel , I want peace, but Im not going to shoot myself in the head while doing so , if my security and demographic concerns are not addressed , then Im not going to have internal conflicts which does nothing for me. if the Palestinians want me to go against my own people, they have to prove to me that my concerns will be addressed.[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]
You did not counter what I said... but we'll get back to that later.
The whole concept of a 2 state solution, is that there is a peace between Israel, and Palestine. Israel can claim whatever it wants to be, but it can not force it upon other people. As Abu Mazin splendidly put it "Go to the UN and call yourselves whatever you want, we are not the party to address", actually, I'd love a UN admission, it will indeed help sort a lot of things. In any rate, Palestinians lived there, hell, some of them even still have deeds. Exodus of war is illegal and they still retain their rights to their lands. Everyone knows that what Abbas said about the Jews was to appease to Hamas to ease tensions, but it still should draw condemnation none the less, and it certainly doesn't justifies Israel stooping to such low. Racism is racism no matter the place, an eye for an eye makes the world blind.
Pfft yeah right, Israeli destruction... Israel have one of the most powerful defense forces, and enjoys the strongest support from the only existing superpower in the world.
And stopping settlers, that you created, is now considered civil war? It's not for the sake of someone else, it is for your sake. You want peace, don't you? You'll have to acknowledge the legality of some Isreali terrotries and hand it over to their rightful people.
Israel specifically targeted densely populated area and utillized chemical warefare. Hamas maybe coward, but the IDF is just as bad.
Now, with all that said, and with all what will be said. Can you tell me how does building 1100 settlements in East Jerusalem contribute to peace?
Victorious_Fize
Nice, expell people and refuse to have them back. If Israel can't handle Palestinians right to return (but somehow magically does well for Jews), maybe Israel was a mistake? At least Americans are taking care of the nativist...
Like I said, be what you want to be, however, don't force it on other people if you have no legality to it. There is currently no admission in the United Nations of the claim, therefore Palestine is not obliged to it.
Also, as how Tzipi defines the Jewish state: "These two goals of Israel as a Jewish and a democratic state must coexist and not contradict each other. So, what does that mean, a Jewish state? It is not only a matter of the number of Jews who live in Israel. It is not just a matter of numbers but a matter of values. The Jewish state is a matter of values, but it is not just a matter of religion, it is also a matter of nationality. And a Jewish state is not a monopoly of rabbis. It is not. It is about the nature of the State of Israel. It is about Jewish tradition. It is about Jewish history, regardless of the question of what each and every Israeli citizen does in his own home on Saturdays and what he does on the Jewish holidays. We need to maintain the nature of the State of Israel, the character of the State of Israel, because this is the raison d'etre of the State of Israel."
So in other words it's not about the majority.
Again: nobody wants you to fight your own. These settlements are illegal. There is no question about the need for evacuation.
And again: how does building 1100 settlements in East Jerusalem contribute to peace?
the US took in the native Americans after most of them were slaughtered/put into reserves, its not quite as simple as that. Tzipi Livni can say what she likes, she in opposition , and thus can say alot of things that mean nothing , the concepts of a Jewish state are based are based on the fact that Jews are majority, and that Jewish values and nationalism are dominant, the same as most states would want. what she means is that its not about religion , its about the character of the state , by that she means the Jewish character., which is exacly tied to nationalism and numbers. but let me turn this around and ask what would most Saudis say if they were told that they were going to have to accept millions of non Arab, non Muslim refugees, essentially making it not possible for the country to be a Muslim Arab state , I would have to assume most people would be firmly against that. fine, so they don't have to say anything, but if they want to let me define my own country myself, then they should not force on me something which would change the nature of the state, it goes both ways here . and this isn't some sort of game where destroying the Jewish state by force didn't work , therefore we will use treaties to do it, the Arabs tried to destroy us in 48 , it didn't work , borders changed, people moved, we all have to accept it Im afraid. so where is my compensation? if they want anything from me, then I want the Arab world to pay compensation to the millions of Jews who potentially deserve it if you set a precedent. and the settlements don't help, no question about it, but Im only going to do as much as anybody else, retreating while not doing anything regarding rockets for instacne will just make me look week.[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]
lol, the whole concept of a 2 state solution , is that there is peace between a Jewish state, and an Arab state, and you can't have a Jewish state if half of its people are Arab , its really quite as simple as that, and most Israelies would see that request as an attempt to destory the state, hence any suspiction towards any Arab initiative. , the Palestinians can live in their own state , and sadly they will have to accept that, Israel is 20% Arab anyways, which is quite ironic, because the Palestinian Ambassedor to the US recently said that the Palestinian state will have no Jews in it, I wonder how the Arabs would feel if we said "Israel should be free of Arabs" , the accusation of racism would be heard in about a second. and the reason why no one will stop the settlers is because no one in Israel is willing to fight his own brother for the sake of someone else, unless there is a tangiable alternative, Israel left Gaza by draggin the settlers out of there, the sight of seeing Jews fighting each other is not a pretty sight, especially not to other Jews , and look what we got because of it, rockets, thousands of them. frankly, the only reason why there are no rockets launched from the West Bank is exactly because Israel is there. and if one wanted to reduce civilian casualties, one should tell Hamas to come fight in the open , considering them saying how "Gaza will be a graveyard for the Jews" , its really quite cowardly of them. they are lions in front of a microphone, and rabbits when fighting.Darkman2007
You did not counter what I said... but we'll get back to that later.
The whole concept of a 2 state solution, is that there is a peace between Israel, and Palestine. Israel can claim whatever it wants to be, but it can not force it upon other people. As Abu Mazin splendidly put it "Go to the UN and call yourselves whatever you want, we are not the party to address", actually, I'd love a UN admission, it will indeed help sort a lot of things. In any rate, Palestinians lived there, hell, some of them even still have deeds. Exodus of war is illegal and they still retain their rights to their lands. Everyone knows that what Abbas said about the Jews was to appease to Hamas to ease tensions, but it still should draw condemnation none the less, and it certainly doesn't justifies Israel stooping to such low. Racism is racism no matter the place, an eye for an eye makes the world blind.
Pfft yeah right, Israeli destruction... Israel have one of the most powerful defense forces, and enjoys the strongest support from the only existing superpower in the world.
And stopping settlers, that you created, is now considered civil war? It's not for the sake of someone else, it is for your sake. You want peace, don't you? You'll have to acknowledge the legality of some Isreali terrotries and hand it over to their rightful people.
Israel specifically targeted densely populated area and utillized chemical warefare. Hamas maybe coward, but the IDF is just as bad.
Now, with all that said, and with all what will be said. Can you tell me how does building 1100 settlements in East Jerusalem contribute to peace?
and at the same time , no one can force me to take in Palestinians, Israel is a Jewish state, and will remain a Jewish state, its really quite as simple as that,, its either a Jewish state (with all that comes with it) , or no peace, just as Palestinians don't agree to settlements (as that means their country would have a significant Jewish minority living in it) , in order to maintain their national identity and culture , so do I , its not a big demand or aspiration , nor is it racism , racism would be telling me to ruin my national character for someone else.
the other reason is that I don't want Israel to turn into another Lebanon , we have seen what an overly divided country can become.
but since we are talking about who owns what, am I getting compensation? somehow I doubt the Arab world will pay anything, while asking me to take in millions of refugees which really will have a country of their own to go to. frankly the money the Arab world made from confiscating Jewish property in the 2nd half of the 20th Century could quite easily pay for the Palestinians and then some.
and yes, destruction of Israel as a Jewish state by demographics is still destorying Israel .
I want peace, but Im not going to shoot myself in the head while doing so , if my security and demographic concerns are not addressed , then Im not going to have internal conflicts which does nothing for me.
if the Palestinians want me to go against my own people, they have to prove to me that my concerns will be addressed.
settlements don't help peace , but its not as though anybody else is doing something for peace.
My firend its not millions that will return. Trust me its not. nearly all the palestinians outside of palestine hardly believe they're palestinian and wouldn't go back. Secondly, Its easy for isreal to say "would you want jews to have a significant minority?" because its not even an issue. The Issue is that there is such thing as Human rights and they are being denied. If Jews had right of return In any arab country it should be addressed. No exceptions based on race or situation. HOWEVER problem is most people can't prove that they had land in Isreal since they were thrown off thier land Just like the Jews. At the same time There are people that can. People that can should be given compensation for it. A system can be and should be developed however dodging the issue by hiding behiend a "would you want this happening to you" Isn't going to move anything in any direction. You have to accept that there are human right the MUST be addressed. No matter the person. If you are displaced you have right of return Why is it that in any other country it isn't argued over?Heck in africa Currently there is a dispora and people are slowly getting right of return. No one is complaining about demographics, why are Irealis getting special treatment? Why should i be sensitive to Isreal? There is no reason to be. Human Rights are human rights they shouldn't be negotiated. Border disputes are diffrent thats negotiatale. However Human rights shouldn't be. Would you agree? Jews were wronged in arab countries, yes. However is anyone saying that Jews shouldn't get compensation? Doubtful because jews themselves don't seem to care much. Is that any Justification to deny anyone else anything? I think not. So don't argue about compensation when most Jews aren't even making an initative to get any kind of cmpensation. Its pretty doubtful they can leagal even prove they were on the land. Does that mean that they don't deserve compensation? no that just means that the Arab countries did a good job at throwing them out ( extremly shameful and wrong but they did a swift job at it) Now if a jew that was displaced can prove that they were legally owners of a stretch of land then its thier right to get compensation. No arguments there. However I've never heard of jew that recently went to an arab government asking for compensation so there is no core issue with that at all in contrast with the palestinians that have been demanding right of return- can prove they were on the land Via deeds and paperwork and have paperwork for compensation. They are two completely differne t scenarios so please don't compare them. You can't deny a human right if you do then that's creeping dangerously close to racism...well it actually is racism.[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]
You did not counter what I said... but we'll get back to that later.
The whole concept of a 2 state solution, is that there is a peace between Israel, and Palestine. Israel can claim whatever it wants to be, but it can not force it upon other people. As Abu Mazin splendidly put it "Go to the UN and call yourselves whatever you want, we are not the party to address", actually, I'd love a UN admission, it will indeed help sort a lot of things. In any rate, Palestinians lived there, hell, some of them even still have deeds. Exodus of war is illegal and they still retain their rights to their lands. Everyone knows that what Abbas said about the Jews was to appease to Hamas to ease tensions, but it still should draw condemnation none the less, and it certainly doesn't justifies Israel stooping to such low. Racism is racism no matter the place, an eye for an eye makes the world blind.
Pfft yeah right, Israeli destruction... Israel have one of the most powerful defense forces, and enjoys the strongest support from the only existing superpower in the world.
And stopping settlers, that you created, is now considered civil war? It's not for the sake of someone else, it is for your sake. You want peace, don't you? You'll have to acknowledge the legality of some Isreali terrotries and hand it over to their rightful people.
Israel specifically targeted densely populated area and utillized chemical warefare. Hamas maybe coward, but the IDF is just as bad.
Now, with all that said, and with all what will be said. Can you tell me how does building 1100 settlements in East Jerusalem contribute to peace?
and at the same time , no one can force me to take in Palestinians, Israel is a Jewish state, and will remain a Jewish state, its really quite as simple as that,, its either a Jewish state (with all that comes with it) , or no peace, just as Palestinians don't agree to settlements (as that means their country would have a significant Jewish minority living in it) , in order to maintain their national identity and culture , so do I , its not a big demand or aspiration , nor is it racism , racism would be telling me to ruin my national character for someone else.
the other reason is that I don't want Israel to turn into another Lebanon , we have seen what an overly divided country can become.
but since we are talking about who owns what, am I getting compensation? somehow I doubt the Arab world will pay anything, while asking me to take in millions of refugees which really will have a country of their own to go to. frankly the money the Arab world made from confiscating Jewish property in the 2nd half of the 20th Century could quite easily pay for the Palestinians and then some.
and yes, destruction of Israel as a Jewish state by demographics is still destorying Israel .
I want peace, but Im not going to shoot myself in the head while doing so , if my security and demographic concerns are not addressed , then Im not going to have internal conflicts which does nothing for me.
if the Palestinians want me to go against my own people, they have to prove to me that my concerns will be addressed.
settlements don't help peace , but its not as though anybody else is doing something for peace.
My firend its not millions that will return. Trust me its not. nearly all the palestinians outside of palestine hardly believe they're palestinian and wouldn't go back. Secondly, Its easy for isreal to say "would you want jews to have a significant minority?" because its not even an issue. The Issue is that there is such thing as Human rights and they are being denied. If Jews had right of return In any arab country it should be addressed. No exceptions based on race or situation. HOWEVER problem is most people can't prove that they had land in Isreal since they were thrown off thier land Just like the Jews. At the same time There are people that can. People that can should be given compensation for it. A system can be and should be developed however dodging the issue by hiding behiend a "would you want this happening to you" Isn't going to move anything in any direction. You have to accept that there are human right the MUST be addressed. No matter the person. If you are displaced you have right of return Why is it that in any other country it isn't argued over?Heck in africa Currently there is a dispora and people are slowly getting right of return. No one is complaining about demographics, why are Irealis getting special treatment? Why should i be sensitive to Isreal? There is no reason to be. Human Rights are human rights they shouldn't be negotiated. Border disputes are diffrent thats negotiatale. However Human rights shouldn't be. Would you agree? Jews were wronged in arab countries, yes. However is anyone saying that Jews shouldn't get compensation? Doubtful because jews themselves don't seem to care much. Is that any Justification to deny anyone else anything? I think not. So don't argue about compensation when most Jews aren't even making an initative to get any kind of cmpensation. Its pretty doubtful they can leagal even prove they were on the land. Does that mean that they don't deserve compensation? no that just means that the Arab countries did a good job at throwing them out ( extremly shameful and wrong but they did a swift job at it) Now if a jew that was displaced can prove that they were legally owners of a stretch of land then its thier right to get compensation. No arguments there. However I've never heard of jew that recently went to an arab government asking for compensation so there is no core issue with that at all in contrast with the palestinians that have been demanding right of return- can prove they were on the land Via deeds and paperwork and have paperwork for compensation. They are two completely differne t scenarios so please don't compare them. You can't deny a human right if you do then that's creeping dangerously close to racism...well it actually is racism. its not a matter of them coming back , its a matter of them having a state to go back to , thats the point of a 2 state solution , a place that Palestinians can go to , but if any of them want land in Israel , then why do they need a Palestinian state? the Palestinians will get their state and are free to do whatever they want in it, but not at the expense of Israel's demographic situation. in other countries there is no adverse effect on the population , the whole point of Israel is a state for the Jews, and it already has a 20% Arab minority (some Druze as well), thats more than most countries I believe, hence why it is different, compensation is one thing, this is another, I have no qualms about compensation if its equal to everyone. and there are good reasons why Jews are not too concerned with any form of compensation , simply because they were actually settled and treated relatively decently, while, lets face it, the Arab World in general treated the Palestinians badly , keeping them in camps (albeit ones that developed into cities) and in some cases, restricting their rights so that they never feel welcome (if I remember correctly, Lebanon has such laws , preventing them from getting quite a few jobs), along with using them for political purposes. the other is of course, the fact that those Jews feel they came back to their ancestral homeland, though ironically enough its those Jews who have the most Anti Arab feeling, make of that what you will.
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