'Liberals' want to give legal non citizens voting rights in local elections.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="alfredooo"]

no? :|

you know its coming

alfredooo

No it isn't and this has nothing to do with Obama, but don't let a small thing like fact keep you from making cheap non-points.

this has everything to do with Obama. He isn't an American citizen (he was born in Kenya) and all the libs want to pass this law so he can vote for himself in the next election.

What I don't understand is that people here are saying, "well, I think it's fine if they vote in local elections, but not in presidential elections". And why do you make that distinction between local and national elections? You're acting like there are only legal residents in Portland, Maine. Guess what, there are legal residents all over the country. If all voting districts did this, then there would be non-citizens voting all over the country.

I just don't understand why you make that distinction. Either you are for non-citizens voting, or you are against it.

BMD004

What difference would it make if all they were voting for was things like Sheriff, mayor and other small time representatives? I don't think any one here supports them in having the right of voting in state (governor, state legislature etc etc) or federal level.. Either way they are a extreme minority so I don't see how this is a really huge deal one way or the other.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

Why should the people of the city not have to right to decide who gets to vote in city elections?

BMD004

We're talking about the people of Portland, people who are already citizens, voting to allow legal residents to vote in city elections. How hard is that to understand?

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="alfredooo"]

no? :|

you know its coming

alfredooo

No it isn't and this has nothing to do with Obama, but don't let a small thing like fact keep you from making cheap non-points.

this has everything to do with Obama. He isn't an American citizen (he was born in Kenya) and all the libs want to pass this law so he can vote for himself in the next election.

He's proven his natural born citizenship. Now prove that he isn't.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="alfredooo"]

no? :|

you know its coming

alfredooo

No it isn't and this has nothing to do with Obama, but don't let a small thing like fact keep you from making cheap non-points.

this has everything to do with Obama. He isn't an American citizen (he was born in Kenya) and all the libs want to pass this law so he can vote for himself in the next election.

See this people? This is why you have to often times put a emoticon or other such things next to your statement to know that it was a joke or being sarcastic.. Because when I see statements like this, i expect the worse.

He's proven his natural born citizenship. Now prove that he isn't.worlock77

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="alfredooo"]

no? :|

you know its coming

alfredooo

No it isn't and this has nothing to do with Obama, but don't let a small thing like fact keep you from making cheap non-points.

this has everything to do with Obama. He isn't an American citizen (he was born in Kenya) and all the libs want to pass this law so he can vote for himself in the next election.

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

Why should the people of the city not have to right to decide who gets to vote in city elections?

worlock77

We're talking about the people of Portland, people who are already citizens, voting to allow legal residents to vote in city elections. How hard is that to understand?

What difference would it make if all they were voting for was things like Sheriff, mayor and other small time representatives? I don't think any one here supports them in having the right of voting in state (governor, state legislature etc etc) or federal level.. Either way they are a extreme minority so I don't see how this is a really huge deal one way or the other.

sSubZerOo

The real question is whether or not citizenship means anything...and it does.

[QUOTE="alfredooo"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

No it isn't and this has nothing to do with Obama, but don't let a small thing like fact keep you from making cheap non-points.

bluezy

this has everything to do with Obama. He isn't an American citizen (he was born in Kenya) and all the libs want to pass this law so he can vote for himself in the next election.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="BMD004"] Because they are not citizens. How hard is that to understand?

BMD004

We're talking about the people of Portland, people who are already citizens, voting to allow legal residents to vote in city elections. How hard is that to understand?

I honeslty think it could be a positive.. Getting legal non citizens a taste of US politics and democracy could give them even more reason to become citizens. Its only on the very local level and all, and they make up a small % of the total population in the US.. I honestly couldn't see this effecting any real serious election at all.

[QUOTE="alfredooo"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

No it isn't and this has nothing to do with Obama, but don't let a small thing like fact keep you from making cheap non-points.

BMD004

this has everything to do with Obama. He isn't an American citizen (he was born in Kenya) and all the libs want to pass this law so he can vote for himself in the next election.

I thought we were on the same side

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

What difference would it make if all they were voting for was things like Sheriff, mayor and other small time representatives? I don't think any one here supports them in having the right of voting in state (governor, state legislature etc etc) or federal level.. Either way they are a extreme minority so I don't see how this is a really huge deal one way or the other.

topsemag55

The real question is whether or not citizenship means anything...and it does.

:| Of course it does.. Even with this to pass you still couldn't vote in state or federal elections.. Nor could ever run for office as a public servant.. You can't be deported.. And many other benefits.. Your over dramatizing an extremely small thing that in no way gives any less reason why you would want to be a citizen in the United States.

[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="worlock77"]

this has everything to do with Obama. He isn't an American citizen (he was born in Kenya) and all the libs want to pass this law so he can vote for himself in the next election.

sSubZerOo

I thought we were on the same side

Well given that my own wife is a legal permanent resident in this country from Sweden...I'd have no objections to allowing legal permanent residents to vote in local elections like for Mayor and the like.nocoolnamejim

I was in a similar situation, and what I did was home-school my wife in U.S. history and government so she could pass the test...she was very proud of becoming an American citizen.:)

Hard to say who was more proud - her or myself, as I was serving in the military at the time.

[QUOTE="topsemag55"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

What difference would it make if all they were voting for was things like Sheriff, mayor and other small time representatives? I don't think any one here supports them in having the right of voting in state (governor, state legislature etc etc) or federal level.. Either way they are a extreme minority so I don't see how this is a really huge deal one way or the other.

sSubZerOo

The real question is whether or not citizenship means anything...and it does.

:| Of course it does.. Even with this to pass you still couldn't vote in state or federal elections.. Nor could ever run for office as a public servant.. You can't be deported.. And many other benefits.. Your over dramatizing an extremely small thing that in no way gives any less reason why you would want to be a citizen in the United States.

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]Well given that my own wife is a legal permanent resident in this country from Sweden...I'd have no objections to allowing legal permanent residents to vote in local elections like for Mayor and the like.topsemag55

I was in a similar situation, and what I did was home-school my wife in U.S. history and government so she could pass the test...she was very proud of becoming an American citizen.:)

Hard to say who was more proud - her or myself, as I was serving in the military at the time.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="topsemag55"]

The real question is whether or not citizenship means anything...and it does.

BMD004

:| Of course it does.. Even with this to pass you still couldn't vote in state or federal elections.. Nor could ever run for office as a public servant.. You can't be deported.. And many other benefits.. Your over dramatizing an extremely small thing that in no way gives any less reason why you would want to be a citizen in the United States.

A) Polling results on a website where any one can do, is unscientific, inaccurate, and irrelevent..B) Furthermore the answers are bias.. "Citizenship doesn't matter" is not a accurate enough, its about local elections.. C) Not even the TC could get the subject right for awhile, when he started declaring that this was including illegals.. When it wasn't..

[QUOTE="bluezy"]You do understand that the proposal in question is to be voted on by voting residents of Portland, Maine, and not a state or the entire country, right? And if passed, it would affect only the legal residents of Portland, Maine, and not legal residents of any other city/town in Maine or the United States.BMD004

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="BMD004"] wow.BMD004

I thought we were on the same side

How the heck was I some how magically inserted into a posting string I wasn't involved with>?

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="BMD004"] Because they are not citizens. How hard is that to understand?

BMD004

We're talking about the people of Portland, people who are already citizens, voting to allow legal residents to vote in city elections. How hard is that to understand?

Now that we're clear do the citizens of a municipality have no right to decide who gets to vote in elections pertaining to that municipality?

Liberals obviously want their votes so they can stay in power since republicans don't want any illegal immigrants and non citizens living here.

Liberals obviously want their votes so they can stay in power since republicans don't want any illegal immigrants and non citizens living here.

Jfisch93

To be honest though, I think that your poll title is pretty poorly/misleadingly worded. "Should non-citizens have voting rights of U.S. citizens?" This implies that the measure in question is giving these permanent residents the EXACT SAME voting rights as citizens. In other words, they could vote for the President and stuff. Instead, it's only allowing them to have a say in local matters that directly impact them. nocoolnamejim

And it's simply a stepping-stone to even higher elections...I highly doubt the liberal groups in question will stop there...I disagree with giving any legal resident the same voting rights of a citizen - the concept of citizenship holds a great deal of meaning when you take an oath to defend the Constitution.

Liberals obviously want their votes so they can stay in power since republicans don't want any illegal immigrants and non citizens living here.

Jfisch93

Since when have Republicans been actively against non citizens legally living here?

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]To be honest though, I think that your poll title is pretty poorly/misleadingly worded. "Should non-citizens have voting rights of U.S. citizens?" This implies that the measure in question is giving these permanent residents the EXACT SAME voting rights as citizens. In other words, they could vote for the President and stuff. Instead, it's only allowing them to have a say in local matters that directly impact them. topsemag55

And it's simply a stepping-stone to even higher elections...I highly doubt the liberal groups in question will stop there...I disagree with giving any legal resident the same voting rights of a citizen - the concept of citizenship holds a great deal of meaning when you take an oath to defend the Constitution.

I don't recall where the Constitution specifically bars legal non-citizen residents from voting in local elections. If you can point me out to where it does I'd be much obliged.

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]To be honest though, I think that your poll title is pretty poorly/misleadingly worded. "Should non-citizens have voting rights of U.S. citizens?" This implies that the measure in question is giving these permanent residents the EXACT SAME voting rights as citizens. In other words, they could vote for the President and stuff. Instead, it's only allowing them to have a say in local matters that directly impact them. topsemag55

And it's simply a stepping-stone to even higher elections...I highly doubt the liberal groups in question will stop there...I disagree with giving any legal resident the same voting rights of a citizen - the concept of citizenship holds a great deal of meaning when you take an oath to defend the Constitution.

This is a slippery slope fallacy we have no evidence of this.. This involves support by a small local group.. Not by a federal party.. And no, neither party would ever want to support this.. Because it would alienate them from the majority of the voter base often times.

I don't recall where the Constitution specifically bars legal non-citizen residents from voting in local elections. If you can point me out to where it does I'd be much obliged.

worlock77

I never said it did...please don't twist my post.:)

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

I don't recall where the Constitution specifically bars legal non-citizen residents from voting in local elections. If you can point me out to where it does I'd be much obliged.

topsemag55

I never said it did...please don't twist my post.:)

So then what was your point about swearing an oath to defend the Constitution?

[QUOTE="topsemag55"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

I don't recall where the Constitution specifically bars legal non-citizen residents from voting in local elections. If you can point me out to where it does I'd be much obliged.

worlock77

I never said it did...please don't twist my post.:)

So then what was your point about swearing an oath to defend the Constitution?

Read back through the thread and you'll find it.

If we limit it to local elections and don't extend it to state or federal elections, then it's a good idea. But I'd never support giving non-citizens (even legal ones) the right to vote in state or national elections.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="topsemag55"]

I never said it did...please don't twist my post.:)

topsemag55

So then what was your point about swearing an oath to defend the Constitution?

Read back through the thread and you'll find it.

How about you just say it instead?

If we limit it to local elections and don't extend it to state or federal elections, then it's a good idea. But I'd never support giving non-citizens (even legal ones) the right to vote in state or national elections.

chessmaster1989

I'd have no problem with legal non-citizen residents being able to vote for things such as Governor or State Senate.

Liberals obviously want their votes so they can stay in power since republicans don't want any illegal immigrants and non citizens living here.

Jfisch93

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

If we limit it to local elections and don't extend it to state or federal elections, then it's a good idea. But I'd never support giving non-citizens (even legal ones) the right to vote in state or national elections.

worlock77

I'd have no problem with legal non-citizen residents being able to vote for things such as Governor or State Senate.

I disagree with that.. Voting for legislature and and governor encompass more then just the immediate district the non citizen lives in.. We could really make argument then that they should be voting for certain federal elections such as house of representatives and senate...

No. Voting is only for citizens. If this is implemented, then what is the advantage of becoming a citizen? Legal residents should not have the same privilages as a citizen. You want to vote? Then the only way to do it is to become a legal citizen to show that you really want to be a part of this country.

BMD004

[QUOTE="Superbored"]

They're forced to pay taxes, yet they no voice in the government?

topsemag55

What about illegal immigrants? They are non-citizens as well, you want to extend voting rights to them?

Illegal is in their name so I'd say no...since it seems like that would be illegal. When legal is in somethings name though it automatically sounds better:P

[QUOTE="topsemag55"]

[QUOTE="Superbored"]

They're forced to pay taxes, yet they no voice in the government?

TacticalDesire

What about illegal immigrants? They are non-citizens as well, you want to extend voting rights to them?

Illegal is in their name so I'd say no...since it seems like that would be illegal. When legal is in somethings name though it automatically sounds better:P

Nor does it make sense.. legal non citizen people living in the United States pay more then just sales tax, they can pay for income tax and have a legal place of residents.. They are not the same in the least.

[QUOTE="TacticalDesire"]

[QUOTE="topsemag55"]

What about illegal immigrants? They are non-citizens as well, you want to extend voting rights to them?

sSubZerOo

Illegal is in their name so I'd say no...since it seems like that would be illegal. When legal is in somethings name though it automatically sounds better:P

Nor does it make sense.. legal non citizen people living in the United States pay more then just sales tax, they can pay for income tax and have a legal place of residents.. They are not the same in the least.

They may also be paying property taxes as well.

Nor does it make sense.. legal non citizen people living in the United States pay more then just sales tax, they can pay for income tax and have a legal place of residents.. They are not the same in the least.

sSubZerOo

But the requirement to be a citizen in order to cast a vote makes sense...a legal resident doesn't have to swear allegiance to the U.S., but a naturalized citizen does.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Nor does it make sense.. legal non citizen people living in the United States pay more then just sales tax, they can pay for income tax and have a legal place of residents.. They are not the same in the least.

topsemag55

But the requirement to be a citizen in order to cast a vote makes sense...a legal resident doesn't have to swear allegiance to the U.S., but a naturalized citizen does.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Nor does it make sense.. legal non citizen people living in the United States pay more then just sales tax, they can pay for income tax and have a legal place of residents.. They are not the same in the least.

topsemag55

But the requirement to be a citizen in order to cast a vote makes sense...a legal resident doesn't have to swear allegiance to the U.S., but a naturalized citizen does.

Yeah but local government doesn't really fit in that does it? Its a smaller form of government that you can hardly declare that you swore allegiance to..

[QUOTE="topsemag55"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Nor does it make sense.. legal non citizen people living in the United States pay more then just sales tax, they can pay for income tax and have a legal place of residents.. They are not the same in the least.

Theokhoth

But the requirement to be a citizen in order to cast a vote makes sense...a legal resident doesn't have to swear allegiance to the U.S., but a naturalized citizen does.

Not taking sides here, but I think paying your taxes and obeying the law is a far greater indicator of your alliegance to the country then any oath you take (which imo are meaningless inless its for legal purposes) or wearing a American flag pin on your clothing..

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Nor does it make sense.. legal non citizen people living in the United States pay more then just sales tax, they can pay for income tax and have a legal place of residents.. They are not the same in the least.

topsemag55

But the requirement to be a citizen in order to cast a vote makes sense...a legal resident doesn't have to swear allegiance to the U.S., but a naturalized citizen does.

Funny, I've never sworn allegiance to the US, but I'm a citizen and have been voting 15 years.

What does it matter to swear allegiance to the U.S.? It's nothing but words; a person can choose never to swear allegiance and vote or they can swear allegiance every day and go shoot up the school in which they do it. They pay taxes, ergo, they are entitled to the right of representation in their community.Theokhoth

Because the Oath of Citizenship is as legal and binding as the Oath of Service one takes for military service...you break an oath at the federal level, you go to prison...military included.:o

[QUOTE="topsemag55"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Nor does it make sense.. legal non citizen people living in the United States pay more then just sales tax, they can pay for income tax and have a legal place of residents.. They are not the same in the least.

worlock77

But the requirement to be a citizen in order to cast a vote makes sense...a legal resident doesn't have to swear allegiance to the U.S., but a naturalized citizen does.

Funny, I've never sworn allegiance to the US, but I'm a citizen and have been voting 15 years.

Furthermore I would say that oaths are in fact misused if anything.. Because its rarely about the foundations of things like the Constiuttion often times, but your loyalty to the person in power..

Absolutely not for national elections, but allright for local elections, I would think.