'Liberals' want to give legal non citizens voting rights in local elections.

No they should not be able to vote

The way you worded the question is pretty biased, but anyhow, no, only legal US residents should be allowed to vote (just like, you know, every other country in the ENTIRE WORLD). I know that the democratic party would love to circumvent the constution and allow non-citizens to vote since they'd be more likely to vote democrat.UT_Wrestler

Why should a person who has their children enrolled in and/or is paying taxes for a school system have no say so in the school system? Why should a person who is paying taxes into the local muncipality have no say in how that municipality is ran?

The way you worded the question is pretty biased, but anyhow, no, only legal US residents should be allowed to vote (just like, you know, every other country in the ENTIRE WORLD). I know that the democratic party would love to circumvent the constution and allow non-citizens to vote since they'd be more likely to vote democrat.UT_Wrestler

But we're talking about local issues here, where political parties are more or less irrelevant. We aren't talking about state or national elections.

Yes. Just because someone can't afford several thousand dollars to take a test does not mean they should have no voice. I think citizenship should be time based.

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]To be honest though, I think that your poll title is pretty poorly/misleadingly worded. "Should non-citizens have voting rights of U.S. citizens?" This implies that the measure in question is giving these permanent residents the EXACT SAME voting rights as citizens. In other words, they could vote for the President and stuff. Instead, it's only allowing them to have a say in local matters that directly impact them. topsemag55

And it's simply a stepping-stone to even higher elections...I highly doubt the liberal groups in question will stop there...I disagree with giving any legal resident the same voting rights of a citizen - the concept of citizenship holds a great deal of meaning when you take an oath to defend the Constitution.

Yes. Just because someone can't afford several thousand dollars to take a test does not mean they should have no voice. I think citizenship should be time based.

Pixel-Pirate

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

Yes. Just because someone can't afford several thousand dollars to take a test does not mean they should have no voice. I think citizenship should be time based.

testfactor888

Bit of a strawman but sure, why not. ;)

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

Yes. Just because someone can't afford several thousand dollars to take a test does not mean they should have no voice. I think citizenship should be time based.

testfactor888

Then, for consistency sake, would you also disagree about taxing legal immigrants until they can vote? After all, taxation without representation was perhaps the biggest thing that lead to the U.S. revolting from British rule. I'll be honest that this isn't an issue I feel that strongly about, but I don't think it is quite as black/white as you're portraying it as being. Why shouldn't people who are here legally and paying taxes have some say in how the taxes are assessed and spent?nocoolnamejim

To be honest Jim, I don't agree with someone being taxed if they cannot vote...say a person gets out of jail, has a house that is deeded to him/her.

Is it fair for a former inmate to have to pay property tax on a home if they don't have voting rights?

That bothers me on the basis of making a person pay for a crime after sentence has been served.

But then if you do cut out taxes on legal residents, then you couldn't claim Married exemption on your 1040, right?

Sounds fine to me, as long as it's only for local elections. I don't see why a resident, citizen or not, shouldn't have some say in what goes on in their area.

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"] Then, for consistency sake, would you also disagree about taxing legal immigrants until they can vote? After all, taxation without representation was perhaps the biggest thing that lead to the U.S. revolting from British rule. I'll be honest that this isn't an issue I feel that strongly about, but I don't think it is quite as black/white as you're portraying it as being. Why shouldn't people who are here legally and paying taxes have some say in how the taxes are assessed and spent?topsemag55

To be honest Jim, I don't agree with someone being taxed if they cannot vote...say a person gets out of jail, has a house that is deeded to him/her.

Is it fair for a former inmate to have to pay property tax on a home if they don't have voting rights?

That bothers me on the basis of making a person pay for a crime after sentence has been served.

But then if you do cut out taxes on legal residents, then you couldn't claim Married exemption on your 1040, right?

[QUOTE="topsemag55"]

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"] Then, for consistency sake, would you also disagree about taxing legal immigrants until they can vote? After all, taxation without representation was perhaps the biggest thing that lead to the U.S. revolting from British rule. I'll be honest that this isn't an issue I feel that strongly about, but I don't think it is quite as black/white as you're portraying it as being. Why shouldn't people who are here legally and paying taxes have some say in how the taxes are assessed and spent?nocoolnamejim

To be honest Jim, I don't agree with someone being taxed if they cannot vote...say a person gets out of jail, has a house that is deeded to him/her.

Is it fair for a former inmate to have to pay property tax on a home if they don't have voting rights?

That bothers me on the basis of making a person pay for a crime after sentence has been served.

But then if you do cut out taxes on legal residents, then you couldn't claim Married exemption on your 1040, right?

Then again, after 5 years of legal residency they do have the option of becoming citizens. Five years of taxes isn't too demanding for that end result.

The residency requirement, I'm guessing, is imposed to show a sincere desire to obtain said citizenship.

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="topsemag55"]

To be honest Jim, I don't agree with someone being taxed if they cannot vote...say a person gets out of jail, has a house that is deeded to him/her.

Is it fair for a former inmate to have to pay property tax on a home if they don't have voting rights?

That bothers me on the basis of making a person pay for a crime after sentence has been served.

But then if you do cut out taxes on legal residents, then you couldn't claim Married exemption on your 1040, right?

topsemag55

Then again, after 5 years of legal residency they do have the option of becoming citizens. Five years of taxes isn't too demanding for that end result.

The residency requirement, I'm guessing, is imposed to show a sincere desire to obtain said citizenship.

Which is why I don't feel that strongly on the issue one way or another... ...but on other hand, playing devil's advocate for a minute, this a question of degrees. Some people will say that 10 years of being here legally is not enough to grant citizenship, others will say that two years is too long. But either way, it IS five years of paying taxes without any sort of representation on how they are assessed. (Minimum.)



I don't necessarily feel strongly enough about it that I'll be sad if the Portland area folks in question don't get the right to vote in local elections. But I also don't really like the way you've portrayed it as being kind of the first step towards an eventual liberal crusade to grant full voting rights to any legal immigrant from the moment that they arrive. That comes across as a bit too hyperbolic for my tastes.nocoolnamejim

Wasn't directed at any single individual.:)

But the situation crops up all too often...ACORN's voting fraud, Dems in House/Senate wanting to give carte blanche to illegals, and now this.

To me Jim, the right to vote should remain with a citizen - by birth or naturalization - but at the same time, I'm more than willing to give legal residents a tax break...which I would press for if I was there.:P

Why does the editor keep eating spaces between words?:x

I don't believe legal residents who aren't citizens should be able to vote. It's blurring the line to much between a citizen and just a resident.

This begs the question, when does a resident become a full citizen? To be a resident you're just choosing to live here and live by the laws of the US. However you have not pledged an allegiance to this nation.

However I need to see the tax laws for a legal resident who has lived here for a few years. If they are subject to the same amount of taxes and have not committed any crimes, maybe after a certain amount of years we give them an opportunity to become a citizen? Just give them the tests (if they want extra schooling for them make them pay a bit extra for the classes), and then have the swear the oath. Skip all of that selection period, they have proven themselves worthy of being a citizen, and then the choice is completely theirs if they want to pledge an allegiance. No need for extra fees or anything, they have already been paying taxes.

Again I need to know how much US federal and state income taxes come into play as well as local property taxes. I know everybody in this nation, illegal, legal, or citizen has to pay sales tax. Every nation in the world is like that. I just would like to know how much a legal resident from a foreign country has to pay for taxes. Are they taxed just like a US citizen? Or are they not? I would almost like to assume they are not obligated for SS or medicare taxes as since they are not citizens they are not eligible for those programs yet they probably pay an income tax.

Still I don't think a non citizen should have the power to be heard politically and have their say effect other citizens. Just make it easier for a resident to become a citizen.

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]Which is why I don't feel that strongly on the issue one way or another... ...but on other hand, playing devil's advocate for a minute, this a question of degrees. Some people will say that 10 years of being here legally is not enough to grant citizenship, others will say that two years is too long. But either way, it IS five years of paying taxes without any sort of representation on how they are assessed. (Minimum.)



I don't necessarily feel strongly enough about it that I'll be sad if the Portland area folks in question don't get the right to vote in local elections. But I also don't really like the way you've portrayed it as being kind of the first step towards an eventual liberal crusade to grant full voting rights to any legal immigrant from the moment that they arrive. That comes across as a bit too hyperbolic for my tastes.topsemag55

Wasn't directed at any single individual.:)

But the situation crops up all too often...ACORN's voting fraud, Dems in House/Senate wanting to give carte blanche to illegals, and now this.

To me Jim, the right to vote should remain with a citizen - by birth or naturalization - but at the same time, I'm more than willing to give legal residents a tax break...which I would press for if I was there.:P

Why does the editor keep eating spaces between words?:x

no i didn't take that embarrassing test for nothing you know

This begs the question, when does a resident become a full citizen? To be a resident you're just choosing to live here and live by the laws of the US. However you have not pledged an allegiance to this nation.Wasdie

- When they take and pass the Citizenship test.

- Most citizens haven't pledged allgiance to this nation, they were just born in the right place.

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]This begs the question, when does a resident become a full citizen? To be a resident you're just choosing to live here and live by the laws of the US. However you have not pledged an allegiance to this nation.worlock77

- When they take and pass the Citizenship test.

- Most citizens haven't pledged allgiance to this nation, they were just born in the right place.

Well we have defined a citizen as somebody who is born here. By our own laws you don't ever have to pledge allegiance to this nation. However a person wanting full citizenship from a foreign country should probably pledge their new allegiance to the nation.

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]This begs the question, when does a resident become a full citizen? To be a resident you're just choosing to live here and live by the laws of the US. However you have not pledged an allegiance to this nation.worlock77

- When they take and pass the Citizenship test.

- Most citizens haven't pledged allgiance to this nation, they were just born in the right place.

[QUOTE="goth_bacon"]Absolutely not. That's a terrible idea in every way.Superbored

They're forced to pay taxes, yet they no voice in the government?

exactly. the people are affected by the policies just as much as citizens. and many of them are very knowledgable about our government as well

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]This begs the question, when does a resident become a full citizen? To be a resident you're just choosing to live here and live by the laws of the US. However you have not pledged an allegiance to this nation.nocoolnamejim

- When they take and pass the Citizenship test.

- Most citizens haven't pledged allgiance to this nation, they were just born in the right place.

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

damn you nyc public schools:P

I haven't seen a lot of proven "voting fraud" allegations. Too often "voter fraud" seems to be code for "we need to make sure that the scary minorities don't turn out in great numbers since they all vote for the Democrats".nocoolnamejim

Wall Street Journal

Well we have defined a citizen as somebody who is born here. By our own laws you don't ever have to pledge allegiance to this nation. However a person wanting full citizenship from a foreign country should probably pledge their new allegiance to the nation.

Wasdie

Albert Einstein didn't have any problem with pledging his allegiance to the U.S.

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

Well we have defined a citizen as somebody who is born here. By our own laws you don't ever have to pledge allegiance to this nation. However a person wanting full citizenship from a foreign country should probably pledge their new allegiance to the nation.

topsemag55

Albert Einstein didn't have any problem with pledging his allegiance to the U.S.

he looks like he wants to use the bathroom:P

To be fair, I remember saying the following words an awful lot when I was a kid in grade school... "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And to the Republic for which it stands. One nation. Under god. Indivisible. With liberty and justice for all." It could be argued that asking kids to say the pledge that early in their lives is both worthless based on age and a bit...indoctrinating...but most of us here in the U.S. HAVE pledged allegiance at one point or another.nocoolnamejim

I said it too, and even though at the time I didn't fully understand all of the concepts, I still felt a sense of pride in saying the Pledge.:)

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"] I haven't seen a lot of proven "voting fraud" allegations. Too often "voter fraud" seems to be code for "we need to make sure that the scary minorities don't turn out in great numbers since they all vote for the Democrats".topsemag55

Wall Street Journal

Actually, that would be the Wall Street Journal's editorial board and not the paper itself. The Wall Street Journal in general is a conservative paper, and basically what you just linked to is a conservative editorialist writing a conservative opinion piece for a conservative paper. Consider the source.nocoolnamejim

If you ever decided to change parties, you would be welcomed.:)

We'll give you tax cuts.:P

And we won't push you to buy health insurance if you don't want to...that's a free choice for an individual, gov't cannot force you to buy.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]This begs the question, when does a resident become a full citizen? To be a resident you're just choosing to live here and live by the laws of the US. However you have not pledged an allegiance to this nation.nocoolnamejim

- When they take and pass the Citizenship test.

- Most citizens haven't pledged allgiance to this nation, they were just born in the right place.

A pledge stated without understanding and out of obligation (whether implicit or explicit) is not a pledge at all.

When I start seeing proposals like this formed by immigrants who have already gained their citizenship, then I'll start to take them more seriously. As is they're almost always proposed by those who either don't want to put forth the effort to become a citizen, or by politicians who are just pandering for more votes.

When I start seeing proposals like this formed by immigrants who have already gained their citizenship, then I'll start to take them more seriously. As is they're almost always proposed by those who either don't want to put forth the effort to become a citizen, or by politicians who are just pandering for more votes.

topgunmv

Actually it was proposed by a young voter group.

Wow your title is so incredibly objective and not a blatant generalization. Anyway no, voting is reserved for only citizens.

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]Actually, that would be the Wall Street Journal's editorial board and not the paper itself. The Wall Street Journal in general is a conservative paper, and basically what you just linked to is a conservative editorialist writing a conservative opinion piece for a conservative paper. Consider the source.topsemag55

If you ever decided to change parties, you would be welcomed.:)

We'll give you tax cuts.:P

And we won't push you to buy health insurance if you don't want to...that's a free choice for an individual, gov't cannot force you to buy.

Liberals wouldn't push you to buy insurance either, we would give you tax cuts depending on how much you make.

[QUOTE="topgunmv"]

When I start seeing proposals like this formed by immigrants who have already gained their citizenship, then I'll start to take them more seriously. As is they're almost always proposed by those who either don't want to put forth the effort to become a citizen, or by politicians who are just pandering for more votes.

worlock77

Actually it was proposed by a young voter group.

Yup, and guess which party these new voters would probably side with. Want to bet the same as this young voter group?

Anyway no, voting is reserved for only citizens.

Former_Slacker

Again I ask the question: should the citizens of a municipality not have the right to decide who gets a vote within that municipalty?

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="topgunmv"]

When I start seeing proposals like this formed by immigrants who have already gained their citizenship, then I'll start to take them more seriously. As is they're almost always proposed by those who either don't want to put forth the effort to become a citizen, or by politicians who are just pandering for more votes.

topgunmv

Actually it was proposed by a young voter group.

Yup, and guess which party these new voters would probably side with. Want to bet the same as this young voter group?

The group in question is non-partisan. At any rate the group is neither too lazy to put forth the effort to become citizens, nor are they politicans pandering for more votes.

[QUOTE="Superbored"]

[QUOTE="goth_bacon"]Absolutely not. That's a terrible idea in every way.Wiffle_Snuff

They're forced to pay taxes, yet they no voice in the government?

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]Actually, that would be the Wall Street Journal's editorial board and not the paper itself. The Wall Street Journal in general is a conservative paper, and basically what you just linked to is a conservative editorialist writing a conservative opinion piece for a conservative paper. Consider the source.topsemag55

If you ever decided to change parties, you would be welcomed.:)

We'll give you tax cuts.:P

And we won't push you to buy health insurance if you don't want to...that's a free choice for an individual, gov't cannot force you to buy.

[QUOTE="topsemag55"]

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]Actually, that would be the Wall Street Journal's editorial board and not the paper itself. The Wall Street Journal in general is a conservative paper, and basically what you just linked to is a conservative editorialist writing a conservative opinion piece for a conservative paper. Consider the source.Former_Slacker

If you ever decided to change parties, you would be welcomed.:)

We'll give you tax cuts.:P

And we won't push you to buy health insurance if you don't want to...that's a free choice for an individual, gov't cannot force you to buy.

Liberals wouldn't push you to buy insurance either, we would give you tax cuts depending on how much you make.

That offer was for Jim, not you.:x:P

In theory, I'd prefer them to be citizens. I suppose that an individual municipality could decide to allow legal non-citizens to vote, but I personally would not support the motion.

[QUOTE="topgunmv"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

Actually it was proposed by a young voter group.

worlock77

Yup, and guess which party these new voters would probably side with. Want to bet the same as this young voter group?

The group in question is non-partisan.

A quick visit to their website certainly suggests otherwise.

If that's the case, then there is absolutely no point to being a citizen. If you want to vote in a country's election process, then you should be a citizen of that country. Not a hard concept.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="topgunmv"]

Yup, and guess which party these new voters would probably side with. Want to bet the same as this young voter group?

topgunmv

The group in question is non-partisan.

A quick visit to their website certainly suggests otherwise.

Young people tend to bemore liberal, more progressive. That does not mean that they necessarily aling with one party. Now, do you have actual substantive critique of the proposal or is attacking the proposer all you can do?

If that's the case, then there is absolutely no point to being a citizen. If you want to vote in a country's election process, then you should be a citizen of that country. Not a hard concept.

sonicare

I like your posts...always a voice of reasonableness.:)

If that's the case, then there is absolutely no point to being a citizen. If you want to vote in a country's election process, then you should be a citizen of that country. Not a hard concept.

sonicare

This isn't about voting in the country's election process, it's about voting in the city's election process. Big difference there.