Logical Proof that God Created Nothing

Before I begin, I’d like to make it clear that the purpose of this thread is not to prove that God does not exist, but simply to prove that God - by Its very nature - would never create anything.

We must accept the premise that every action - even if performed by God - is done for a reason or purpose. If you do not accept this premise, do not bother reading any further as the argument that will be presented in this thread is ineffective without it.

All reasons/ purposes fall under only two categories: Needs | Desires.

1. A need is something without which one cannot survive or function. An example of this is an organism’s need for food; without food, an organism would die.

2. A desire is something without which one is in a less than perfect state of happiness or is in a state of happiness less than that they could be in.

So, if one is to believe that God created the universe, then one must believe that God did so due to a need or desire. However, as God is said to be perfect, It - by its very nature - needs nothing and would want nothing; Its nature is such that it is self-sustaining (hence why it would need nothing) and that It is innately, wholly satisfied (hence why it would want nothing).

Hence, if God exists, It has never created anything and never will.

I have a problem with the 'God has always existed'. A mathematical problem. If God existed for an eternity before the Universe was created, and eternity means infinity, then that means there was an infinite amount of time before creation. Let's call that pre-creation infinity. That being the case, creation would be an end to pre-creation infinity, and by definition infinity has no end.

And point besides why would it take an infinity for God to decide to create the universe? And why would he create the universe after an infinity of being just fine without it?

I have a very limited understanding of it, but the way I understood it, matter and energy have always existed for singularity theory to be true right?

That's not really a proof as much as it is circular logic. Just like "god is perfect and thus would never make anything that is not perfect. Man is imperfect. Thus god did not make man".

Your example for need is too limited. One does only need things for survival. Second.....a desire for companionship does not mean one is imperfect.

I cannot see the logic in your idea.

Proof logically that my argument is circular logic or don't bother making an assertion. All you did is provide an analogy without actually explaining why my argument is circular logic, which it definitely isn't.

In regard to your analogy, it has no place here; I never said that God would never create anything perfect, but that It would never create anything at all.

@br0kenrabbit: This is going to sound crazy, but someone explained this to me once. Not in regards to god, but in regards to the beginning of the universe. In essence, our understanding or concept of time did not exist before the universe existed. The laws that govern the universe, such as time, did not exist prior to it. So, it's not as if there was infinite time before the universe began because time did not exist. I know that sounds weird, and perhaps one of the more science minded people can explain it better than me.

You lost me at "Logical". Word shouldn't be in your vocabulary.

>logic

>god

lol

Lol. Points you didn't pretend you invented the omnipotence paradox, but still, lol.

Time is a human construct though....

@BluRayHiDef: You've also made several other assumptions.

1. God is perfect.

2. A perfect entity would desire or want nothing.

3. It's nature is self sustaining

None of those derive from your initial assumption.

You guys should check this video out. If you're closed minded and have already decided that he's wrong, don't bother watching and don't bother posting about it.

The universe is a spec of dust under some unicorn's nail

God created everything as circles

@BluRayHiDef: why is he half naked with his hood up?

@thehig1:

That's his schtick. You know, his gimmick.

No, because space and time are the same thing, and both were created at the initiation of the Big Bang.

Unless you're getting into the multiverse hypothesis, but that gets weird because from outside our 3D+1 (3 spacial dimensions + linear time) universe you could view all of time simultaneously.

your last thread that tried to prove something ended in disaster, I expect this will be about the same

The MEASUREMENT of time is a human construct, but time itself is no more a human construct that the distance between you and the wall. Just because humans invented the measuring stick doesn't mean that distance didn't exist beforehand.

@BluRayHiDef: fair enough, its actually a good video he makes some good points.

You're all fools! God created himself.

Yeah I'm not a fan of that strong anthropic principle nonsense.

1. Perfection, by definition, is to be pure/ total and content/ satisfied, according to Merriam Webster's Dictionary. My assumption that God is perfect is based on the assertions on those who claim It exists (e.g. Jews, Christians, and Muslims, etc).

2. See No. 1 (above).

3. As God is said to have created everything, then we must assume that prior to doing so, It was alone (i.e. It was literally the only thing in existence). Hence, for the infinite amount of time before it created anything, it must have sustained itself, because there was nothing else to sustain it.

Nor am I, but proposing any existence before the big bang necessarily passes into the hypothetical.

@thehig1: Yea, I enjoy his videos. He makes strong arguments and is amusing.

You never know. Someone with an open mind may spring up.

I'm not sure perfect = self-sustaining. Would the perfect engine of a machine that never breaks and can go at incredible speeds be imperfect because of it's need for an energy source? Would a perfect human being that is perfectly athletic and is a genius be imperfect because of it's need for oxygen and water? Our Earth seems to be self-sustaining ,would that make our planet perfect? The flaw in your argument is how we define perfect.

aaaaand nailed it.

No it is not. Unless you're suggesting that any measurement of the passing of time didn't exist before the advent of humanity.

Your premises are insufficient, and your conclusion does not logically follow. Your definitions of "need" and "desire" are unproven (various theories of well-being have argued against happiness having any importance in relation to desires), and your assumption that a perfect being would lack desires is baseless even if your definitions hold true.

"God" as you're describing it sounds familiar to that of Plotinus' "The One," but the Neoplatonists do a much better job of both explaining it and covering their tracks than you have here.

If you want to disprove an Orthodox God, you're better off sticking to Russell or Mackie.

This thread has no logic.

Some men just wanna watch the world burn.

Okay, so BRHD, let me ask you this...

If what you say was proven to be factual, and you proved that God neither existed nor created anything, how would that impact your life? Would it change anything about how you live your life on a day to day?

Who measured it?

Why indeed would something implode and explode into creation? Into all those theories parallel a truth.

What could compel, what could not be other than a pure energy source, at least just before the Big Bang?

Before that, a non-energy. Emptiness. The Void.

Into this perfect void arises awareness. Awareness to know that in some perfect state, it exists. But, that was all. At first.

Eventually it comes to know itself as perfect, a long, long time. A unit of measurement inconceivably to us.

Wonder arises. A wonder we're all born with. A wonder that permeates and informs everything.

To know if it's perfect, splits into the ever perfect ameba, the torus, a möbius of equal yin and yang, positive and negative, it divides so fast, in less than an instant, it explodes.

13.7 billion years later, 100's of millions of galaxies, each with 100's of millions of stars around one we swirl, pell mell through space, 100's of miles an hour, on the energy of the first wave.

God made mistake creating BRHD =P

Our inability to measure time doesn't denote that it doesn't exist anymore than our inability to measure distances implies that spacial dimensions do not exist.

Those are all human ideas though.

"Time" is simply a way to measure change. Seconds, minutes, hours, etc. are invented by humans but change has always existed.

Are you suggesting spacetime didn't exist before humanity?

@Aljosa23: Actually, before the big bang, time did not exist.

Again, those are all flawed assumptions. Perfection is a human concept with limited scope that you are trying to apply to some kind of infinite entity. If there does exist a "god", I would suspect that it would be far outside of our realm of understanding or description. Secondly, You are assuming that this "god" is of the jewish-christian-muslim belief and that it is some sort of super human like being but human like nonetheless.

A God could simply be some entity that existed before the laws of our universe existed. Before the big bang. Want or desire may not even be applicable to it.

God doesn't make mistakes.

Mind explaining this pesky appendix in my body then?

Considering some medical research says it has a function......is it really a mistake?

Has it? Those are still human ideas. Nothing you say changes that.

Considering its still a vestigial appendage, yes.

I believe that it served a purpose at one time, just like wisdom teeth. While it's not much use to us now, in the past it probably helped with digestion of some sort.