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VoodooGamer

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#1 VoodooGamer
Member since 2007 • 1864 Posts

The thread about whether humanity is evil got me thinking about misanthropism. I didn't want to waylay the thread, so I created this one.

Misanthropism is the dislike for humanity. Generally, these people look at man's past as evidence for their dislike, and they believe that the Earth would be better off without humans. There's no doubt in my mind that humans have done a lot of awful acts and have been ignorant, but what would you expect? Were still in our infancy, and we still have a lot to learn. One person described historians as being sensationalists, and I believe it to be true. Historians archive what is the most interesting or the most important, and a lot of times, these things are gruesome and violent.

What would you like to read about more, how Julius Caesar defeated over 60,000 soldiers with 6 cohorts (6,000 horses) at the Battle of Alesia, or how Jonathan the Farmer brought an entire community together during a time of crisis? It's not accurate to judge humankind entirely by its recorded history. More people have died naturally, then people have died through war. 1/3 of the world was wiped out because of the bubonic plague, and that wasn't through war, but through a disease.

I want to cut this short, so where do you stand?

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Funky_Llama

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#2 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
I dislike humanity. This needs no justification. :x
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-Jiggles-

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#3 -Jiggles-
Member since 2008 • 4356 Posts
People suck, but humanity is great.
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11Marcel

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#5 11Marcel
Member since 2004 • 7241 Posts

It should be more of an argument against statism (having a government). For example, the indian americans lived peacefully with nature for thousands of years, just like tribes all over the world.

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JabbaDaHutt30

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#6 JabbaDaHutt30
Member since 2009 • 370 Posts
I'm sort of not quite there yet, though I believe that if creatures have more freedom, they are prone to do more evil than good. The more aware a creature is, the more must it be kept under control.
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VoodooGamer

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#7 VoodooGamer
Member since 2007 • 1864 Posts

It should be more of an argument against statism (having a government). For example, the indian americans lived peacefully with nature for thousands of years, just like tribes all over the world.

11Marcel

Yeah, the industrial revolution really created havoc on the environment and created a very large gap between humans and nature, and this is a sad thing. Yet, I believe as time goes on, we'll develop more efficient, less polluting technologies that will enable us to become closer to nature again.

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phillo99

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#8 phillo99
Member since 2005 • 2369 Posts

It should be more of an argument against statism (having a government). For example, the indian americans lived peacefully with nature for thousands of years, just like tribes all over the world.

11Marcel

You don't know what statism is. Statism is believing that all power is in the state. Also, the indians/NA whatever, they had governments too. I don't know if you read what you type or not. NA's fought wars. They killed eachother. They weren't the peaceful people you think they were.

TC: You have the battle of Alesia all wrong.

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Quofan

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#9 Quofan
Member since 2005 • 1606 Posts

The thread about whether humanity is evil got me thinking about misanthropism. I didn't want to waylay the thread, so I created this one.

Misanthropism is the dislike for humanity. Generally, these people look at man's past as evidence for their dislike, and they believe that the Earth would be better off without humans. There's no doubt in my mind that humans have done a lot of awful acts and have been ignorant, but what would you expect? Were still in our infancy, and we still have a lot to learn. One person described historians as being sensationalists, and I believe it to be true. Historians archive what is the most interesting or the most important, and a lot of times, these things are gruesome and violent.

What would you like to read about more, how Julius Caesar defeated over 60,000 soldiers with 6 cohorts (6,000 horses) at the Battle of Alesia, or how Jonathan the Farmer brought an entire community together during a time of crisis? It's not accurate to judge humankind entirely by its recorded history. More people have died naturally, then people have died through war. 1/3 of the world was wiped out because of the bubonic plague, and that wasn't through war, but through a disease.

I want to cut this short, so where do you stand?

VoodooGamer

This is true - for a long time this was the case. However, advancements made in historiography have recognised this error, and this is why political hitsory is no longer the main focus. Since the likes of Marx and Durkheim, we have ceased to focus exclusively on the political and military aspects, and begun looking at jonathan the farmer in social, cultural and economic history.

The "historians" you refer to are a long dead breed, one which often (in ancient times i.e Tacitus and the like) was treated like a work of literature, not just history. Its part of the reason we dont even know that Julius Caesar defeated over 60,000 soldiers. It merely makes for an interesting story to people back then. But history has now become more scientific in its approach, using techniques such as dendrochronology, radiocarbon dating, archaeology, etymology, topography etc.

Human beings are only evil in the context of doing something deemed unacceptable in their own society. Or even in another. For example, back to Caesar - he found the human sacrifice practiced by the ancient Celts morally repugnant (which funnily enough he himself sensationalised in his own writings). But in Celtic society, sacrifice and ritual murder were very important in religious life. What is right and wrong depends on the society, and therefore humans as a whole cannot be labelled "evil" if there is no universal standard for evil. Even something such as murder.

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VoodooGamer

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#10 VoodooGamer
Member since 2007 • 1864 Posts
[QUOTE="11Marcel"]

It should be more of an argument against statism (having a government). For example, the indian americans lived peacefully with nature for thousands of years, just like tribes all over the world.

phillo99

You don't know what statism is. Statism is believing that all power is in the state. Also, the indians/NA whatever, they had governments too. I don't know if you read what you type or not. NA's fought wars. They killed eachother. They weren't the peaceful people you think they were.

TC: You have the battle of Alesia all wrong.

Where did I make the error? From what I'm reading right now, it says 60,000 reinforcements commanded by Vercingtorix vs. 6,000 cohorts.

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Quofan

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#11 Quofan
Member since 2005 • 1606 Posts
[QUOTE="phillo99"][QUOTE="11Marcel"]

It should be more of an argument against statism (having a government). For example, the indian americans lived peacefully with nature for thousands of years, just like tribes all over the world.

VoodooGamer

You don't know what statism is. Statism is believing that all power is in the state. Also, the indians/NA whatever, they had governments too. I don't know if you read what you type or not. NA's fought wars. They killed eachother. They weren't the peaceful people you think they were.

TC: You have the battle of Alesia all wrong.

Where did I make the error? From what I'm reading right now, it says 60,000 reinforcements commanded by Vercingtorix vs. 6,000 cohorts.

How do you know what you are reading is reliable as a source? Is it just a single book/source you are reading?

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Teenaged

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#12 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

Humaaaaaanity, humaaaaaanity..... good-bye! :o *kaboom*

Honestly I don't know if I am misanthropic. :?

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tonberry007

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#13 tonberry007
Member since 2009 • 401 Posts
I'm kind of misanthropic to be honest. I find humans to be vile, worthless, hypocritical creatures with over-bloated egoes. Especially modern humans.
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phillo99

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#14 phillo99
Member since 2005 • 2369 Posts
[QUOTE="phillo99"][QUOTE="11Marcel"]

It should be more of an argument against statism (having a government). For example, the indian americans lived peacefully with nature for thousands of years, just like tribes all over the world.

VoodooGamer

You don't know what statism is. Statism is believing that all power is in the state. Also, the indians/NA whatever, they had governments too. I don't know if you read what you type or not. NA's fought wars. They killed eachother. They weren't the peaceful people you think they were.

TC: You have the battle of Alesia all wrong.

Where did I make the error? From what I'm reading right now, it says 60,000 reinforcements commanded by Vercingtorix vs. 6,000 cohorts.

Well, you only have part of the battle there. And Caesar didn't command only cavalry. He had infantry too. Second, Vercingetorix's cousin brought hundereds of thousands of reinforcements. There wasn't just 60000 gauls. Also,6000 cohorts is almost 3 million men which was impossible in ancient times.

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JabbaDaHutt30

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#15 JabbaDaHutt30
Member since 2009 • 370 Posts
I'm kind of misanthropic to be honest. I find humans to be vile, worthless, hypocritical creatures with over-bloated egoes. Especially modern humans.tonberry007
Are you talking about humans in general, or just the GS moderators?
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cametall

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#16 cametall
Member since 2003 • 7692 Posts
Welcome to OT, where almost everyone is a misanthrope.
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tonberry007

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#17 tonberry007
Member since 2009 • 401 Posts
[QUOTE="tonberry007"]I'm kind of misanthropic to be honest. I find humans to be vile, worthless, hypocritical creatures with over-bloated egoes. Especially modern humans.JabbaDaHutt30
Are you talking about humans in general, or just the GS moderators?

All modern humans, i.e humans after 17th century.
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Video_Game_King

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#18 Video_Game_King
Member since 2003 • 27545 Posts
What the hell do you define as infancy? Over 3000 years ago, when Hebrews were slaves to Egyptians (if the Bible can be used as a rough historical text)? 70 years ago, when Hitler was trying to creat a "master race"? 20 years ago, when Rwanda was caught up in a similar situation, and right after America saw the movie SCHINDLER'S LIST!?
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phillo99

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#19 phillo99
Member since 2005 • 2369 Posts

What the hell do you define as infancy? Over 3000 years ago, when Hebrews were slaves to Egyptians (if the Bible can be used as a rough historical text)? 70 years ago, when Hitler was trying to creat a "master race"? 20 years ago, when Rwanda was caught up in a similar situation, and right after America saw the movie SCHINDLER'S LIST!?Video_Game_King

Maybe you aren't aware of the fact that we have only been on the planet for a few thousand years while almost everything else has been here for millions of years. That's an infancy.

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Thessassin

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#20 Thessassin
Member since 2007 • 1819 Posts

[QUOTE="tonberry007"]I'm kind of misanthropic to be honest. I find humans to be vile, worthless, hypocritical creatures with over-bloated egoes. Especially modern humans.JabbaDaHutt30
Are you talking about humans in general, or just the GS moderators?

rofl good one:P

anyways i think that generally people are good its just money and power that corrupts people. Think about it, most of the villians of history were rich and powerful, that is the source of all evil.

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AnObscureName

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#21 AnObscureName
Member since 2008 • 2069 Posts
Well humans can be cocks at times.
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Video_Game_King

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#22 Video_Game_King
Member since 2003 • 27545 Posts

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]What the hell do you define as infancy? Over 3000 years ago, when Hebrews were slaves to Egyptians (if the Bible can be used as a rough historical text)? 70 years ago, when Hitler was trying to creat a "master race"? 20 years ago, when Rwanda was caught up in a similar situation, and right after America saw the movie SCHINDLER'S LIST!?phillo99

Maybe you aren't aware of the fact that we have only been on the planet for a few thousand years while almost everything else has been here for millions of years. That's an infancy.

Huh? 298,050 is a small number? About 300 is a few? And if you're going to compare us to other species, wouldn't it be more logical to compare us to other species with similar societies or levels of sentience as humanity?

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super_mario_128

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#23 super_mario_128
Member since 2006 • 23884 Posts
Humanity is awesome; shame that the minority has to spoilt it for everyone else... Hell, I guess that's what natural selection is for...
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VoodooGamer

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#24 VoodooGamer
Member since 2007 • 1864 Posts
[QUOTE="VoodooGamer"][QUOTE="phillo99"]

You don't know what statism is. Statism is believing that all power is in the state. Also, the indians/NA whatever, they had governments too. I don't know if you read what you type or not. NA's fought wars. They killed eachother. They weren't the peaceful people you think they were.

TC: You have the battle of Alesia all wrong.

phillo99

Where did I make the error? From what I'm reading right now, it says 60,000 reinforcements commanded by Vercingtorix vs. 6,000 cohorts.

Well, you only have part of the battle there. And Caesar didn't command only cavalry. He had infantry too. Second, Vercingetorix's cousin brought hundereds of thousands of reinforcements. There wasn't just 60000 gauls. Also,6000 cohorts is almost 3 million men which was impossible in ancient times.

None of it is wrong, I just didn't include every detail. Also, I said 6 cohorts, not 6,000. Yet, it is still wrong, since the actual number was around 13 cohorts which is actually around 6,000 horsemen. 6 cohorts would be around 3,600.

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#25 VoodooGamer
Member since 2007 • 1864 Posts
[QUOTE="phillo99"]

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]What the hell do you define as infancy? Over 3000 years ago, when Hebrews were slaves to Egyptians (if the Bible can be used as a rough historical text)? 70 years ago, when Hitler was trying to creat a "master race"? 20 years ago, when Rwanda was caught up in a similar situation, and right after America saw the movie SCHINDLER'S LIST!?Video_Game_King

Maybe you aren't aware of the fact that we have only been on the planet for a few thousand years while almost everything else has been here for millions of years. That's an infancy.

Huh? 298,050 is a small number? About 300 is a few? And if you're going to compare us to other species, wouldn't it be more logical to compare us to other species with similar societies or levels of sentience as humanity?

Cut the cute attitude for one. Second, civilization has only been around for 6,000-10,000 years, give or take; that's not a very long time considering that evolutionary change is measured in millions of years.

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phillo99

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#26 phillo99
Member since 2005 • 2369 Posts
[QUOTE="phillo99"]

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]What the hell do you define as infancy? Over 3000 years ago, when Hebrews were slaves to Egyptians (if the Bible can be used as a rough historical text)? 70 years ago, when Hitler was trying to creat a "master race"? 20 years ago, when Rwanda was caught up in a similar situation, and right after America saw the movie SCHINDLER'S LIST!?Video_Game_King

Maybe you aren't aware of the fact that we have only been on the planet for a few thousand years while almost everything else has been here for millions of years. That's an infancy.

Huh? 298,050 is a small number? About 300 is a few? And if you're going to compare us to other species, wouldn't it be more logical to compare us to other species with similar societies or levels of sentience as humanity?

A species level of sentiency doesn't matter when comparing how long something has lived on earth.

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MgamerBD

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#27 MgamerBD
Member since 2006 • 17550 Posts
I just want the world to burn....Is this misanthropism?
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#28 Video_Game_King
Member since 2003 • 27545 Posts

A species level of sentiency doesn't matter when comparing how long something has lived on earth.

phillo99

For the purposes of comparing their nature in relation to each other and other living beings on Earth, I'd say it's fairly important.

Cut the cute attitude for one. Second, civilization has only been around for 6,000-10,000 years, give or take; that's not a very long time considering that evolutionary change is measured in millions of years.

VoodooGamer

Define civilization. Is it different from society? And evolutionary change is measured by generation, not by years. Don't believe me? I believe there was a study done on the finches of the Galapagos, and it showed a direct and steady increase in beak size over several generations, meaning evolution happens quick enough to be observed, not at a snail's pace for snails.

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fanboy-buster

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#29 fanboy-buster
Member since 2006 • 4594 Posts
Do Misanthropics consider themeselves the saviours of humanity? Do they hate themeselves too?
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Video_Game_King

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#30 Video_Game_King
Member since 2003 • 27545 Posts

I just want the world to burn....Is this misanthropism?MgamerBD

Nihilism...and Sephirothism :P.

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VoodooGamer

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#31 VoodooGamer
Member since 2007 • 1864 Posts
[QUOTE="phillo99"]

A species level of sentiency doesn't matter when comparing how long something has lived on earth.

Video_Game_King

For the purposes of comparing their nature in relation to each other and other living beings on Earth, I'd say it's fairly important.

Cut the cute attitude for one. Second, civilization has only been around for 6,000-10,000 years, give or take; that's not a very long time considering that evolutionary change is measured in millions of years.

VoodooGamer

Define civilization. Is it different from society? And evolutionary change is measured by generation, not by years. Don't believe me? I believe there was a study done on the finches of the Galapagos, and it showed a direct and steady increase in beak size over several generations, meaning evolution happens quick enough to be observed, not at a snail's pace for snails.

We all know what civilization is; stop arguing for the sake of arguing--it's pointless. Evolutionary change is measured by years, yet, change, overall, is very slow. The Earth took billions of years to develop into what is more; life tooks millions of years to become what is now. Change is indeed very slow, and human civilization is very infant by comparison as well as by comparison to the age of other lifeforms.

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tonberry007

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#32 tonberry007
Member since 2009 • 401 Posts
Do Misanthropics consider themeselves the saviours of humanity? Do they hate themeselves too?fanboy-buster
I, for one hate myself.
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Video_Game_King

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#33 Video_Game_King
Member since 2003 • 27545 Posts

Do Misanthropics consider themeselves the saviours of humanity? Do they hate themeselves too?fanboy-buster

You're confusing individual hatred with hatred of a group. If I say that I don't like 50 Cent, does that make me racist? NO! It just means I like good games, which he doesn't know how to make.

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#34 DJ-Lafleur
Member since 2007 • 35604 Posts
There are some humans I hate, but overall, I think humanity is okay.
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Video_Game_King

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#35 Video_Game_King
Member since 2003 • 27545 Posts

We all know what civilization is; stop arguing for the sake of arguing--it's pointless. Evolutionary change is measured by years, yet, change, overall, is very slow. The Earth took billions of years to develop into what is more; life tooks millions of years to become what is now. Change is indeed very slow, and human civilization is very infant by comparison as well as by comparison to the age of other lifeforms.

VoodooGamer

Did you really need the Earth part? We're not discussing Gaia theory. And again, shouldn't we compare ourselves to species with close enough levels of sentience, or at least with similar traits? I don't think it's fair to compare humans to sponges or crocodiles.

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fanboy-buster

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#36 fanboy-buster
Member since 2006 • 4594 Posts

[QUOTE="fanboy-buster"]Do Misanthropics consider themeselves the saviours of humanity? Do they hate themeselves too?Video_Game_King

You're confusing individual hatred with hatred of a group. If I say that I don't like 50 Cent, does that make me racist? NO! It just means I like good games, which he doesn't know how to make.

But isn't misanthorpism a hate for HUMANITY (meaning the whole global population)
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VoodooGamer

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#37 VoodooGamer
Member since 2007 • 1864 Posts
[QUOTE="VoodooGamer"]

We all know what civilization is; stop arguing for the sake of arguing--it's pointless. Evolutionary change is measured by years, yet, change, overall, is very slow. The Earth took billions of years to develop into what is more; life tooks millions of years to become what is now. Change is indeed very slow, and human civilization is very infant by comparison as well as by comparison to the age of other lifeforms.

Video_Game_King

Did you really need the Earth part? We're not discussing Gaia theory. And again, shouldn't we compare ourselves to species with close enough levels of sentience, or at least with similar traits? I don't think it's fair to compare humans to sponges or crocodiles.

We're comparing the age of human civilization to the age of everything else, so no, we don't need to compare humans to similar creatures. 10,000 years is a very short time on the scale.

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Video_Game_King

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#38 Video_Game_King
Member since 2003 • 27545 Posts
[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="VoodooGamer"]

We all know what civilization is; stop arguing for the sake of arguing--it's pointless. Evolutionary change is measured by years, yet, change, overall, is very slow. The Earth took billions of years to develop into what is more; life tooks millions of years to become what is now. Change is indeed very slow, and human civilization is very infant by comparison as well as by comparison to the age of other lifeforms.

VoodooGamer

Did you really need the Earth part? We're not discussing Gaia theory. And again, shouldn't we compare ourselves to species with close enough levels of sentience, or at least with similar traits? I don't think it's fair to compare humans to sponges or crocodiles.

We're comparing the age of human civilization to the age of everything else, so no, we don't need to compare humans to similar creatures. 10,000 years is a very short time on the scale.

Again, we've been on Earth for 300,000 years, and for the purposes of this argument, it would be more practical to compare humanity to similar life forms. We're not just looking at the age of civilization, we're looking at what we've done within our respective durations.

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#39 VoodooGamer
Member since 2007 • 1864 Posts
[QUOTE="VoodooGamer"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]

Did you really need the Earth part? We're not discussing Gaia theory. And again, shouldn't we compare ourselves to species with close enough levels of sentience, or at least with similar traits? I don't think it's fair to compare humans to sponges or crocodiles.

Video_Game_King

We're comparing the age of human civilization to the age of everything else, so no, we don't need to compare humans to similar creatures. 10,000 years is a very short time on the scale.

Again, we've been on Earth for 300,000 years, and for the purposes of this argument, it would be more practical to compare humanity to similar life forms. We're not just looking at the age of civilization, we're looking at what we've done within our respective durations.

I said human civilization has been around for 10,000 years. What would be the purpose of discussing the entire age of humanity, when we're disputing the action of humankind within recorded history? There's no point, and it has no merit in this thread. What is more, I don't see how it would be fruitful to compare the actions of humankind to an ape, considering that the modern ape can't even construe complex tools.

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MetalGear_Ninty

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#40 MetalGear_Ninty
Member since 2008 • 6337 Posts
All historical actions of grave injustice are outweighed by the everyday human performances of kindness and generosity.
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JabbaDaHutt30

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#41 JabbaDaHutt30
Member since 2009 • 370 Posts
All historical actions of grave injustice are outweighed by the everyday human performances of kindness and generosity.MetalGear_Ninty
No.
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Video_Game_King

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#42 Video_Game_King
Member since 2003 • 27545 Posts

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]All historical actions of grave injustice are outweighed by the everyday human performances of kindness and generosity.JabbaDaHutt30
No.

Same here. Me cleaning out the litter box won't cancel out all the negative effects of the Holocaust.

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Quofan

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#43 Quofan
Member since 2005 • 1606 Posts

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]What the hell do you define as infancy? Over 3000 years ago, when Hebrews were slaves to Egyptians (if the Bible can be used as a rough historical text)? 70 years ago, when Hitler was trying to creat a "master race"? 20 years ago, when Rwanda was caught up in a similar situation, and right after America saw the movie SCHINDLER'S LIST!?phillo99

Maybe you aren't aware of the fact that we have only been on the planet for a few thousand years while almost everything else has been here for millions of years. That's an infancy.

Wrong. Try a few million? 7 million years is generally the estimation for how long humans have been around. "Civilisation" has effectively been around only a few thousand years perhaps. The Earth has existed for approx. 4 billion years.

I dont know about "infancy" - how do you know if we will last much longer? This could be our prime for all we know an extinction event is around the corner.

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sAndroid17

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#44 sAndroid17
Member since 2005 • 8715 Posts
im extremely Misanthropic!
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hokies1313

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#45 hokies1313
Member since 2005 • 13919 Posts
I like humanity, but I hate people. There's a slight difference in there.
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tzar3

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#46 tzar3
Member since 2006 • 12393 Posts
Meh, sometimes I don't like people. But thats mostly at school, teens are annoying at times.
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ShotGunBunny

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#47 ShotGunBunny
Member since 2004 • 2184 Posts
A lot of people still have a lot to learn, but that doesn't mean I hate humanity.
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MetalGear_Ninty

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#48 MetalGear_Ninty
Member since 2008 • 6337 Posts

[QUOTE="JabbaDaHutt30"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]All historical actions of grave injustice are outweighed by the everyday human performances of kindness and generosity.Video_Game_King

No.

Same here. Me cleaning out the litter box won't cancel out all the negative effects of the Holocaust.

Say if billions of people do one kind thing everyday, then that is a lot of good in the world.
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phillo99

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#49 phillo99
Member since 2005 • 2369 Posts
[QUOTE="phillo99"]

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]What the hell do you define as infancy? Over 3000 years ago, when Hebrews were slaves to Egyptians (if the Bible can be used as a rough historical text)? 70 years ago, when Hitler was trying to creat a "master race"? 20 years ago, when Rwanda was caught up in a similar situation, and right after America saw the movie SCHINDLER'S LIST!?Quofan

Maybe you aren't aware of the fact that we have only been on the planet for a few thousand years while almost everything else has been here for millions of years. That's an infancy.

Wrong. Try a few million? 7 million years is generally the estimation for how long humans have been around. "Civilisation" has effectively been around only a few thousand years perhaps. The Earth has existed for approx. 4 billion years.

I dont know about "infancy" - how do you know if we will last much longer? This could be our prime for all we know an extinction event is around the corner.

Wrong? Not 7 million? Not even close? And so I was off on the thousands mark. It's a few HUNDERED thousand. Leave a little part out and everyone jumps on you.