Music you can't stand?

This topic is locked from further discussion.

Avatar image for pianist
pianist

18900

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#451 pianist
Member since 2003 • 18900 Posts

What music do you consider simplistic?

I'm asking because you've differentiated between "simplistic" and "simple" in the past.

dinhibited55

A good question that requires an answer longer than I can be bothered to write here. But I'll give you something. Simple music and simplistic music sound similar. Both are clear and direct in their expression. The primary difference is that simple music is formally interesting on some level, whereas simplistic music gets mired in repetition with only superficial variation. In short, simple music takes you on a musical journey (where the writing itself is what is evolving) whereas simplistic music goes nowhere (once again, musically speaking), or ventures only into the mundane. Usually, this music is created by unskilled composers who don't yet have the tools at their disposal to write more complex music. In general, when a composer chooses to write simple music, it is simple. When it is simply the RESULT of whatever effort he puts into it, it is simplistic.

If we start with Pachelbel's Canon being an example of simplistic music, we can take a work which is equally simple on the surface and which promotes the same gentle character as the Canon, then hopefully demonstrate why it is not simplistic despite sounding simple. Then you can, by direct comparison, hear the difference. So here it is - a song by Rachmaninoff which is not simplistic but which sounds clear and simple.

For our purposes, let's start by focusing on just the melody. Pachelbel's melody is consistently presented in four bar phrases with completely predictable pacing, and there is also a high degree of rhythmic and motivic repetition in the piece. The 'variations' of the motive do nothing with the bass and are primarily accomplished by simply adding more notes to the melodic figuration or its accompaniment. Rachmaninoff, by contrast, presents a melody which is not governed by the bar line. In fact, it is challenging to keep track of where the down beat is when listening to it. It comes to rest at points, but nowhere does it sound like it just finishes and starts over again with exactly the same motive. The phrase lengths are also varied, not just in a structural sense, but with respect to the length of the individual vocal phrases. You can hear it easily - sometimes the voice sings many notes before a pause, sometimes just a few, and the length of these fragments is varied. Structurally, it is not locked into four bar phrases. The first major phrase (starting when the voice enters and ending at 22 seconds or so) is three bars long. The second is two bars long. And the melody comes to rest at different points in the bar.

So why does this matter? Because by avoiding normal musical phrasing and predicatable cadences, Rachmaninoff has created a melody which does not sound like it's ever completely over until the piece ends. We're conditioned, whether we realize it or not, to expect phrases to be four bars long, and for melodies to carry through to a cadence. When that happens, the phrase sounds complete. When it doesn't happen, the phrase doesn't sound complete, and so it allows the music to keep 'moving.' That is very much more satisfying to me than a simple melody that rigidly affixes itself to predicatable, four bar phrasing and keeps repeating the same melody over and over. It's like hearing a piece end twenty times.

Want another example from popular music? Check this melody out. It starts off nice and simple. The first phrase is a predicatable antecedent and consequent pattern, four bars long, with the first three beats being up-beats (making the first long note you hear the downbeat). But the second phrase, though starting normally, pulls us listeners right off our comfortable, predictable rhythmic pattern. This starts at the 18 second mark, where the phrase sounds like it starts too early. This shifts our perception of the downbeat from beat 1 to beat 3. If you listen to just that part, pretending that the word "vision" is the downbeat, it sounds like perfectly normal four-bar phrase... until you get to "within the sound of silence," which will give the impression of being too short. Why? Because the downbeat was shifted, and so the phrase ends earlier than expected. And I'm sure you can hear that, once again, the result is that the second phrase keeps moving forward, unlike the first phrase which has very clear resting points that correspond to our natural four-bar listening bias. That's good melody writing.

Now how about repetition? Repetition is inherent to Western music and vital to formal integrity. Without some repetition, it's difficult to appreciate music. But too much repetition leads to bland music (think rap without the lyrics). Pachelbel is incredibly repetitious. From the harmony right up to the melodic fragments that are heard over and over again, it is repetitious. This is a poor way of handling repetition. Rachmaninoff, by comparison, presents repetition in a much more subtle way. He repeats certain short rhythmic patterns with different melodic notes. And he repeats pitch patterns, but adjusts where the pitches land metrically. In other words - when something is repeated, it is almost always altered in a way which fundamentally changes our interpretation of it.

Then there's harmony. Obviously Pachelbel doesn't go anywhere in his piece. Rachmaninoff does. You can make the argument that Pachelbel came from an earlier time, but it's not like modulation was an alien concept to the Baroque composers. And even if you don't go anywhere harmonically, you can still compensate for THAT lack of interest by promoting interest in other ways. A great example would be the fourth movement of Brahms's fourth symphony, which is written as a passacaglia - another of those repetitive Baroque variation forms. The first theme statement that ends at the 19 second mark is used to build the entire movement, just like the Canon presents its only thematic material in the first few moments. But listen to all the things Brahms does with that simple little tune. That's why the movement is not simplistic. In fact... it doesn't even end up sounding simple at all, despite the simple musical device that is being employed.

Anyways, I'm sick of writing for now, so I'll just leave you with this thought - simple music is that which presents itself with the utmost clarity, but which is not simple at all when you look under the surface at what is happening with the music (i.e. not predicatble and mundane - toying with our natural listening biases). Simplistic music is the opposite - music which has very little happening under the surface, or which IS mundane. And it need not even sound all that simplistic. Lots of the guitar solos that people wet themselves over on this site are remarkably simplistic writing. They sound fantastically difficult and complex, but they simply aren't when you study them. As to your initial question - I find the vast majority of popular music to be simplistic. Rap, rock, disco, metal... you name it. They're all steeped in repetition of motives in a non-developmental fashion, and they cling to safe musical conventions, preferring to experiment with timbre but not with structure. So you get a lot of neat, novel sounds in these genres, but very little music which is satisfying to study, or which fills you with awe of the composer's ability to conceive of and successfully carry out a complex idea with great skill.

Avatar image for TheBigTicket21
TheBigTicket21

30875

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 13

User Lists: 0

#452 TheBigTicket21
Member since 2004 • 30875 Posts
metal and screamo
Avatar image for Quick-Time
Quick-Time

610

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#453 Quick-Time
Member since 2007 • 610 Posts

Opera and gospel.

Avatar image for UnrighteousFury
UnrighteousFury

2764

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#454 UnrighteousFury
Member since 2008 • 2764 Posts

Anything needlessly aggressive.

So yeah, I'm not a big metal fan.

Avatar image for HiResDes
HiResDes

5919

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#455 HiResDes
Member since 2004 • 5919 Posts

Anything needlessly aggressive.

So yeah, I'm not a big metal fan.

UnrighteousFury

WTH does that mean?

Avatar image for remmbermytitans
remmbermytitans

7214

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#456 remmbermytitans
Member since 2005 • 7214 Posts

polka

gamergirl17
Win. Oh and I've got to throw in rap.
Avatar image for Orlando_Magic
Orlando_Magic

37448

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#457 Orlando_Magic
Member since 2002 • 37448 Posts

:lol: let me me guess, because it's not: Popular?

2_Quiet_2_Riot

Popularity doesn't have anything to do with good music. So no.



I could say the same thing about blithering Flhip-Flhoppers defending thier sad precious uninspired Top 40 cRap.

Metal>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>cRap

2_Quiet_2_Riot



That's nice.

The biggest difference is Metal has LONGEVITY and passion, not just the talent to play an instrument.

2_Quiet_2_Riot

Rap has longevity and passion... pretty much any music genre has artists that are passionate about their music :|



With METAL (or any Rock band) the genre can be mainstream with a strong hardcore following, or be Underground with a strong niche following.

2_Quiet_2_Riot

With rap the genre can be mainstream with a strong hardcore following, or be underground with a strong niche following. What is your point :|



Which is why alotof Metal bands try to veer away from the mainstream, simply to sustain that hardcore following, and control their own music. Something cRap severely lacks.
2_Quiet_2_Riot


Plenty of rap artists try to stay away from the mainstream too. How is it something rap severely lacks when you acknowledge that there is underground hip-hop later in your post, not to mention that it's quite plentiful...



After all, the genre needs to be "hot", "new", "poppy", "good beats" and "make alotta dem benjamins, nah mean"- a staple rule in mainstream hip-hop.....which is exactly why cRap artists don't last long. ;)

2_Quiet_2_Riot


Plenty of rap artists have longevity, mainstream or underground. In the mainsteam look at someone like LL Cool J who has been relevent for the past 25 years. In the underground look at someone like MF Doom who has been relevent for about 20 years now...

Look at Feminem, Dr Dre, Snoop Dogg and his retarded hood of horrors :lol: All of them hyped and marketted to death....yet after a few years down the road, their music is practically DEAD.

2_Quiet_2_Riot



How did Dr. Dre's music die out a couple years down the line?:lol: Dr. Dre was a member of N.W.A. and part of one of biggest movements in hip-hop (gangsta hip-hop) starting roughly around 1987. He produced the D.O.C.'s cIassic album No One Can Do It Better in 1989 and then N.W.A. released EFil4zaggin in 1991. In 1992 he revolutionized the genre again (G-Funk) with the release of his debut solo album the Chronic, and further cemented his place in hip-hop history by producing all of Snoop's cIassic debut album DoggystyIe in 1993. Over the next couple years he produced various songs for artists like Tupac, Nas (and also the Firm), Ras Kass, Scarface, the Dogg Pound, and so on. By 1999 he took Eminem under his wing and produced stuff off of the Slim Shady LP and also released his second solo album the Chronic 2001. He continued working with Em and also did work with Busta Rhymes, Jay-Z, and so on in the years afterward. By 2003 he was responsible for making 50 Cent a known commodity by producing his biggest song In Da Club. From then until now he's been producing songs for artists like Jay, the Game, 50 Cent/G-Unit, Nas, DMX, Bishop Lamont, and so on... and he's working on his next album Detox. That's over 20 years in the game.... and his music is still alive. How is that not longevity...



And also, take away the foul explicit content in cRap, it is guaranteed, the genre wouldn't stand up against Rock music in general.

2_Quiet_2_Riot

Public Enemy, A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul anyone...

Avatar image for Orlando_Magic
Orlando_Magic

37448

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#458 Orlando_Magic
Member since 2002 • 37448 Posts

For the jazz haters...

some drum solos...

Buddy Rich drum solo

Billy Cobham drum solo

Art Blakey drum solo


some great songs...

Miles Davis/Herbie Hancock/Wayne Shorter/Ron Carter/Tony Williams- "All Blues"

Art Blakey & the Jazz Messengers- "Children of the Night" (Wayne Shorter sax solo)

Lee Morgan- "I Remember Clifford"

jazz owns ;)

Avatar image for Teenaged
Teenaged

31764

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#459 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

Most rap.

Avatar image for Bumzur
Bumzur

560

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#460 Bumzur
Member since 2009 • 560 Posts

[QUOTE="dinhibited55"]

What music do you consider simplistic?

I'm asking because you've differentiated between "simplistic" and "simple" in the past.

pianist

A good question that requires an answer longer than I can be bothered to write here...

That's a lengthy reply considering it was to a post that was 2 short sentences long. Do you ever wonder if the guy just might not sign onto Gamespot for a day and completely miss your well thought-out and articulated post? Or perhaps he'll see it, notice the length, and not even read it?
Avatar image for Teenaged
Teenaged

31764

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#461 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

[QUOTE="mattykovax"][QUOTE="xaos"]The music of a child's laughter :(Funky_Llama
Wow,thats kind of depressing...

Not as depressing as a child's laughter. It's so freaking irritating :x

What? I am disappointed....

Avatar image for dinhibited55
dinhibited55

64

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#462 dinhibited55
Member since 2009 • 64 Posts

[QUOTE="pianist"]

[QUOTE="dinhibited55"]

What music do you consider simplistic?

I'm asking because you've differentiated between "simplistic" and "simple" in the past.

Bumzur

A good question that requires an answer longer than I can be bothered to write here...

That's a lengthy reply considering it was to a post that was 2 short sentences long. Do you ever wonder if the guy just might not sign onto Gamespot for a day and completely miss your well thought-out and articulated post? Or perhaps he'll see it, notice the length, and not even read it?

Rest assured, I read it.

Avatar image for k16campbell
k16campbell

660

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#463 k16campbell
Member since 2008 • 660 Posts

Well i hate country... im more of a classic rock guy.8)

Avatar image for pianist
pianist

18900

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#464 pianist
Member since 2003 • 18900 Posts

That's a lengthy reply considering it was to a post that was 2 short sentences long. Do you ever wonder if the guy just might not sign onto Gamespot for a day and completely miss your well thought-out and articulated post? Or perhaps he'll see it, notice the length, and not even read it? Bumzur

If he was just asking to try to put me on the spot, then it's entirely possible it wouldn't be read. But I didn't sense that he was doing that, and even if he had been, it was a question that many people may have been asking themselves, so it merited the response. He asked a question and I provided that answer; if he didn't read it, then it's his problem, not mine.

But I happen to know he did read it. In fact, he sent me a kind PM thanking me for it, which I appreciated very much.

Avatar image for Koalakommander
Koalakommander

5462

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#465 Koalakommander
Member since 2006 • 5462 Posts
no metal
Avatar image for twilightpanda
twilightpanda

10607

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#466 twilightpanda
Member since 2008 • 10607 Posts

i can't stand rap and heavy metal it just makes me feel like saying:"what were they thinking?"

Avatar image for Stashbash
Stashbash

479

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#467 Stashbash
Member since 2008 • 479 Posts

I really detest manufactured pop, where the artist has their voice filtered and doesn't even write the music. Not so mad about RnB either =\

Avatar image for Darth-Caedus
Darth-Caedus

20756

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#468 Darth-Caedus
Member since 2008 • 20756 Posts

heavy metal it just makes me feel like saying:"what were they thinking?"

twilightpanda
Whatch mean by that?:P
Avatar image for carlobrown174
carlobrown174

170

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#469 carlobrown174
Member since 2008 • 170 Posts

I despise anything pop. :evil:

Yes I am a metaller. :twisted:

Avatar image for SoraX64
SoraX64

29221

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 12

User Lists: 0

#470 SoraX64
Member since 2008 • 29221 Posts

Pop, Country, Opera, mainstream rap, R&B, reggae, and most cIassic rock (Yes I said it) *puts up flame sheild*

Darth-Caedus
Basically this... I despise all of it.
Avatar image for The_AI
The_AI

4791

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#471 The_AI
Member since 2006 • 4791 Posts

[QUOTE="The_AI"]

[QUOTE="Juggernaut140"] gwar Pictures, Images and Photos That's the best part :lol: Juggernaut140

LOLGWAR :lol:

GWAR rox :o

They're hilarious. :lol:

Avatar image for Jazz559
Jazz559

1750

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#472 Jazz559
Member since 2002 • 1750 Posts

I hate all that scream-o BS with its different sub-genres and all. Aside from that I'm a pretty open book as long as it's solid.

I just feel sorry for the people who rule out entire genres like "country" or "rap", etc...because there is a reason that they are there. There are good songs in every part of music if you look hard enough and give it an honest listen.

Avatar image for edisni_edistuo
edisni_edistuo

75

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#473 edisni_edistuo
Member since 2009 • 75 Posts
Absolutely hate country music with a fiery and burning passion! xD A lot of scream-o music is scary but some of it's okay. Then of course there are the songs, no matter what genre, that get annoying just because they're played on the radio over and over and over again.