Muslim Brotherhood candidate wins Egyptian elections

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/06/201262412445190400.html

While I despise the brotherhod, I'd say I'd rather have a pro-revolution candidate win then an anti-revolution candidate and buddy of the old regime win.

Now Gaza will be further fvcked.GazaAli

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]Now Gaza will be further fvcked.Darkman2007

This will turn out to be a good thing. The Brotherhood hasdecried terrorist action and has been pretty high on Al Quaeda's sh*t list because of it. They won't be the greatest in terms of social equality, but societies evolve through democracies. Simply allowing free speech and democratic referrendums on social issues will eventually allow the people with the largest stake in these issues, i.e. the people actually living in Egypt, to bring about reform on their own terms.

This will turn out to be a good thing. The Brotherhood hasdecried terrorist action and has been pretty high on Al Quaeda's sh*t list because of it. They won't be the greatest in terms of social equality, but societies evolve through democracies. Simply allowing free speech and democratic referrendums on social issues will eventually allow the people with the largest stake in these issues, i.e. the people actually living in Egypt, to bring about reform on their own terms.

theone86

This will turn out to be a good thing. The Brotherhood hasdecried terrorist action and has been pretty high on Al Quaeda's sh*t list because of it. They won't be the greatest in terms of social equality, but societies evolve through democracies. Simply allowing free speech and democratic referrendums on social issues will eventually allow the people with the largest stake in these issues, i.e. the people actually living in Egypt, to bring about reform on their own terms.theone86

Is it weird that i read that as ERECTIONS and not ELECTIONS?

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="GazaAli"]Now Gaza will be further fvcked.BossPerson

[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] why would you say that? if anything I would have thought Hamas are jumping for joy now that their friends are in power.Darkman2007

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]...hence, further fvckedBossPerson

Now Gaza will be further fvcked.GazaAli

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]They'll have more support to do whatever it is they want to do whether it is send rockets across the border or train militants....all things not good for the average gazanBossPerson

[QUOTE="theone86"]This will turn out to be a good thing. The Brotherhood hasdecried terrorist action and has been pretty high on Al Quaeda's sh*t list because of it. They won't be the greatest in terms of social equality, but societies evolve through democracies. Simply allowing free speech and democratic referrendums on social issues will eventually allow the people with the largest stake in these issues, i.e. the people actually living in Egypt, to bring about reform on their own terms.Zeviander

The Brotherhood isn't perpetrating this violence, though how it responds to minority groups will be an early test. The thing is that they're no longer just an outside group, they're tasked with running a nation and as such they have to respond to political pressure from other nations. Also, hopefully, the start of a democratic system will speed the transmission of ideas and more diverse opinions will start to take hold in government. There will be problems, but that's true of any new state. Has any Western democracy really come into being in a better manner? France had to go through the Reign of Terror and Napoleon's rule to get to democracy, the U.S. only started addressing some of its anti-democratic traditions after about a century of existence. So long as fair elections and freedom of the press remain as institutions the odds remain in favor of Egypt moving in a positive direction.

The Brotherhood isn't perpetrating this violence, though how it responds to minority groups will be an early test. The thing is that they're no longer just an outside group, they're tasked with running a nation and as such they have to respond to political pressure from other nations. Also, hopefully, the start of a democratic system will speed the transmission of ideas and more diverse opinions will start to take hold in government. There will be problems, but that's true of any new state. Has any Western democracy really come into being in a better manner? France had to go through the Reign of Terror and Napoleon's rule to get to democracy, the U.S. only started addressing some of its anti-democratic traditions after about a century of existence. So long as fair elections and freedom of the press remain as institutions the odds remain in favor of Egypt moving in a positive direction.theone86

From brutal dictatorship to brutal theocracy. Grats.

[QUOTE="theone86"]This will turn out to be a good thing. The Brotherhood hasdecried terrorist action and has been pretty high on Al Quaeda's sh*t list because of it. They won't be the greatest in terms of social equality, but societies evolve through democracies. Simply allowing free speech and democratic referrendums on social issues will eventually allow the people with the largest stake in these issues, i.e. the people actually living in Egypt, to bring about reform on their own terms.Zeviander

[QUOTE="theone86"]The Brotherhood isn't perpetrating this violence, though how it responds to minority groups will be an early test. The thing is that they're no longer just an outside group, they're tasked with running a nation and as such they have to respond to political pressure from other nations. Also, hopefully, the start of a democratic system will speed the transmission of ideas and more diverse opinions will start to take hold in government. There will be problems, but that's true of any new state. Has any Western democracy really come into being in a better manner? France had to go through the Reign of Terror and Napoleon's rule to get to democracy, the U.S. only started addressing some of its anti-democratic traditions after about a century of existence. So long as fair elections and freedom of the press remain as institutions the odds remain in favor of Egypt moving in a positive direction.Zeviander

Well, for one I don't think that religion is going to be as far away from government as possible, at least not at first. Lamentable, yes, but I really don't see the alternative. What I can never understand is people who think that we can just lay down moral imperatives and have other people and societies accept them wholesale without any development. I think history has pretty much always shown the opposite to be true, and that the only way true change occurs is through the actions of those within a given society. When slavery became morally unacceptable in Europe, for example, it changed nothing about slavery in America. It took the transmission of ideas and the work of U.S. citizens to start to change ideas towards slavery. People in Egypt do not have a secular mindset, and no amount of grandstanding about secular principles is going to change that. However, if we can peacefully transmit secular ideas to individual citizens and convince them that it's not an infringement on their culture then the cause can be advanced, so long as democracy and free speech are protected.

It has little to do with optimism, it has to do with realism and pragmatism, and it's based in observation. For one, generally Muslims view violence on the global stage in a negative light. I believe something like 1% of Muslims support terrorist actions and 3% feel it's justified. That leaves 96% who are peaceful and non-violent. Secondly, there's plenty of precedent for an Islamic society to institute secular reforms, like in Morocco where women's right have made some significant steps forward. At the very least, I think that simply laying down ultimatums for Islamic countries to adopt our own visions of secular society has never worked and probably never will, at best I think there's sufficient evidence that Islamic society in general is experiencing a transformation.

[QUOTE="Zeviander"][QUOTE="theone86"]This will turn out to be a good thing. The Brotherhood hasdecried terrorist action and has been pretty high on Al Quaeda's sh*t list because of it. They won't be the greatest in terms of social equality, but societies evolve through democracies. Simply allowing free speech and democratic referrendums on social issues will eventually allow the people with the largest stake in these issues, i.e. the people actually living in Egypt, to bring about reform on their own terms.themajormayor

[QUOTE="themajormayor"][QUOTE="Zeviander"] Tell that to Coptic Christians getting murdered because they aren't Muslim. Despite them being more naturally Egyptian than the Muslims.kraychik

Facists can't shred anything, their worldview is inherently flawed.

i already miss mubarak.

muslim brotherhood = basically nazis.

muslim brotherhood = basically nazis.

TopTierHustler

[QUOTE="TopTierHustler"]

muslim brotherhood = basically nazis.

BossPerson

Yeah, Nazis is a bit too close to the whole Godwin effect for me. I think that minority rights and security are going to be a large issue in the coming years and there will be enormous pressure on the Brotherhood to do the right thing (and rightfully so). Still, they're not going to go rounding people up for death camps.

[QUOTE="TopTierHustler"]

muslim brotherhood = basically nazis.

BossPerson

-.-

Death to the Muslim Brotherhood. If they were so tough you guys wouldn't see me post a anything forever in the next day....but watch, I'll be back.

[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="TopTierHustler"]

muslim brotherhood = basically nazis.

theone86

Yeah, Nazis is a bit too close to the whole Godwin effect for me. I think that minority rights and security are going to be a large issue in the coming years and there will be enormous pressure on the Brotherhood to do the right thing (and rightfully so). Still, they're not going to go rounding people up for death camps.

[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="TopTierHustler"]

muslim brotherhood = basically nazis.

Darkman2007

Come get me Muslim Brotherhood, if you're so tough and smart lets see if you can kill one of your dissidents in 24 hours.

I am waiting.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]Think of the muslims brotherhood as the Republican party; it has its extremesBossPerson

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="BossPerson"]Think of the muslims brotherhood as the Republican party; it has its extremesDarkman2007

Yeah, Nazis is a bit too close to the whole Godwin effect for me. I think that minority rights and security are going to be a large issue in the coming years and there will be enormous pressure on the Brotherhood to do the right thing (and rightfully so). Still, they're not going to go rounding people up for death camps.

Which somewhat hinders the process of change, but you can hardly blame them when they are unsure if the government is going to protect them and their families from harm. One of my biggest gripes with Israel is that Palestinians don't trust them for general protection, for Egypt to recreate that dynamic would be troubling. I think that just represents, though, that the MB is no longer just grandstanding on the sidelines, they are governing a nation and that means taking care of competing interests and having to deal with diplomatic repercussions.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="theone86"]

Yeah, Nazis is a bit too close to the whole Godwin effect for me. I think that minority rights and security are going to be a large issue in the coming years and there will be enormous pressure on the Brotherhood to do the right thing (and rightfully so). Still, they're not going to go rounding people up for death camps.

theone86

Which somewhat hinders the process of change, but you can hardly blame them when they are unsure if the government is going to protect them and their families from harm. One of my biggest gripes with Israel is that Palestinians don't trust them for general protection, for Egypt to recreate that dynamic would be troubling. I think that just represents, though, that the MB is no longer just grandstanding on the sidelines, they are governing a nation and that means taking care of competing interests and having to deal with diplomatic repercussions.

whats that got to do with it?

you talk about reprecussions or competing interests, most Egyptians are Muslims, the Christians are not a huge minority, so they are pretty much at the mercy of the majority, and frankly I dont think anybody in the wider world will care what happens to the Copts (and Im not saying this to insult them , Im saying this because I know that nothing would be done to help them no matter what happens to them)

That's a shame....LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] I doubt there will be death camps or something like that, but do expect to see more Copts leaving, its already happening in fact.Darkman2007

Which somewhat hinders the process of change, but you can hardly blame them when they are unsure if the government is going to protect them and their families from harm. One of my biggest gripes with Israel is that Palestinians don't trust them for general protection, for Egypt to recreate that dynamic would be troubling. I think that just represents, though, that the MB is no longer just grandstanding on the sidelines, they are governing a nation and that means taking care of competing interests and having to deal with diplomatic repercussions.

whats that got to do with it?

you talk about reprecussions or competing interests, most Egyptians are Muslims, the Christians are not a huge minority, so they are pretty much at the mercy of the majority, and frankly I dont think anybody in the wider world will care what happens to the Copts (and Im not saying this to insult them , Im saying this because I know that nothing would be done to help them no matter what happens to them)

Basically that I find the dynamic of civilians being unable to trust in local police forces troubling no matter where it happens.

That's kinda why I said their leaving hinders the process of change. I know they probably won't have much internal debate on this issue (though remember that Mubarak's candidate did receive 48% of the vote), but hopefully foreign pressures can force them away from a hardline. Egypt received plenty of aid from the U.S., even if they don't come back for aid they're going to be dependent on some country for it. Hopefully that country can threaten sanctions if the government is letting the Copts be killed.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]That's a shame....Darkman2007

[QUOTE="Zeviander"][QUOTE="theone86"]This will turn out to be a good thing. The Brotherhood hasdecried terrorist action and has been pretty high on Al Quaeda's sh*t list because of it. They won't be the greatest in terms of social equality, but societies evolve through democracies. Simply allowing free speech and democratic referrendums on social issues will eventually allow the people with the largest stake in these issues, i.e. the people actually living in Egypt, to bring about reform on their own terms.themajormayor

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]That's a shame....BossPerson

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

[QUOTE="theone86"]

Which somewhat hinders the process of change, but you can hardly blame them when they are unsure if the government is going to protect them and their families from harm. One of my biggest gripes with Israel is that Palestinians don't trust them for general protection, for Egypt to recreate that dynamic would be troubling. I think that just represents, though, that the MB is no longer just grandstanding on the sidelines, they are governing a nation and that means taking care of competing interests and having to deal with diplomatic repercussions.

theone86

whats that got to do with it?

you talk about reprecussions or competing interests, most Egyptians are Muslims, the Christians are not a huge minority, so they are pretty much at the mercy of the majority, and frankly I dont think anybody in the wider world will care what happens to the Copts (and Im not saying this to insult them , Im saying this because I know that nothing would be done to help them no matter what happens to them)

Basically that I find the dynamic of civilians being unable to trust in local police forces troubling no matter where it happens.

That's kinda why I said their leaving hinders the process of change. I know they probably won't have much internal debate on this issue (though remember that Mubarak's candidate did receive 48% of the vote), but hopefully foreign pressures can force them away from a hardline. Egypt received plenty of aid from the U.S., even if they don't come back for aid they're going to be dependent on some country for it. Hopefully that country can threaten sanctions if the government is letting the Copts be killed.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]That's a shame....BossPerson

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

whats that got to do with it?

you talk about reprecussions or competing interests, most Egyptians are Muslims, the Christians are not a huge minority, so they are pretty much at the mercy of the majority, and frankly I dont think anybody in the wider world will care what happens to the Copts (and Im not saying this to insult them , Im saying this because I know that nothing would be done to help them no matter what happens to them)

Darkman2007

Basically that I find the dynamic of civilians being unable to trust in local police forces troubling no matter where it happens.

That's kinda why I said their leaving hinders the process of change. I know they probably won't have much internal debate on this issue (though remember that Mubarak's candidate did receive 48% of the vote), but hopefully foreign pressures can force them away from a hardline. Egypt received plenty of aid from the U.S., even if they don't come back for aid they're going to be dependent on some country for it. Hopefully that country can threaten sanctions if the government is letting the Copts be killed.

Well, then hopefully if they're not focused on minority issues that means that there won't be institutional discimination. The thing that worries me is that TMB has previously advocated for a protection tax on non-Muslims, which could be very problematic if they went ahead with it.

[QUOTE="kraychik"][QUOTE="themajormayor"] But they DID decry terrorist action so everything is OKtheone86

Facists can't shred anything, their worldview is inherently flawed.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="theone86"]

Basically that I find the dynamic of civilians being unable to trust in local police forces troubling no matter where it happens.

That's kinda why I said their leaving hinders the process of change. I know they probably won't have much internal debate on this issue (though remember that Mubarak's candidate did receive 48% of the vote), but hopefully foreign pressures can force them away from a hardline. Egypt received plenty of aid from the U.S., even if they don't come back for aid they're going to be dependent on some country for it. Hopefully that country can threaten sanctions if the government is letting the Copts be killed.

theone86

Well, then hopefully if they're not focused on minority issues that means that there won't be institutional discimination. The thing that worries me is that TMB has previously advocated for a protection tax on non-Muslims, which could be very problematic if they went ahead with it.