Nationalism & Patriotism - does human kind need it?

Nationalism & Patriotism

I have been seeing lots of patriots & nationalists in this world of gamespot, and I would like to hear your opinions on why you believe or do not believe that they are right?

I am against both as i find them deeply dull. I am english and have lived there my whole life, but yet I have never felt patriotic in my life.

Neither do I feel a strong sense of belonging here.

My curiousity arose when a hero of mine Morrissey deeply believes in both ...

AGAINST:

Here is a kind of Bill Hicks-ish comedian arguing against nationalism (I know its comedy but he has a point)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQEcMTSgg5w

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them! ~Albert Einstein

It is not easy to see how the more extreme forms of nationalism can long survive when men have seen the Earth in its true perspective as a single small globe against the stars. ~Arthur C Clarke

Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons. ~Bertrand Russell

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. ~George Bernard Shaw

FOR:

It is the love of country that has lighted and that keeps glowing the holy fire of patriotism. ~J. Horace McFarland

Our country is not the only thing to which we owe our allegiance. It is also owed to justice and to humanity. Patriotism consists not in waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous as well as strong. ~James Bryce

I like to see a man proud of the place in which he lives. I like to see a man live so that his place will be proud of him. ~Abraham Lincoln

love to hear your views .... thank you ...

No, it does not. Nations, strictly speaking, are abstractions. Governments, populations and artificially segregated chunks of land are not sentient beings. Ultimately, the only true societal sovereign is the individual. Collectivism is an illusion, and even blind patriotism and nationalism invariably end up serving the interests of a select few (individuals). Therefore, the only function of a nation should be to house individuals and secure their rights, while leaving them be in their own pursuits.

Nor are nations different from one another in any real sense (and subsequently, not superior or inferior). Things such as culture, shared worldviews and ethnicity are not solely confined to specific nations, nor does any one nation represent only one demographic. Especially now, with the advent of globalization and the internet, borders really are disappearing all but for the imposed institutions of government and economy.

Both ideas are not only logically, factually and morally reprehensible, they are even quite obsolete for virtually all interests, individual or otherwise.

Well, it permits humans to adjust into a group without any need of acceptance. If you're from any country, you belong to that group.

But i don't think it's good. Totally not good. We humans are no longer a species of violence. But still, we live by it.

I don't believe in it. I'm an individualist, not a collectivist. And that's not an individualist quality. I'm not white, or Bi, or American, or a young adult, or whatever. I'm just me, some guy. That's the way I see it. I'm proud of myself, not my country. I'm proud of other individuals, not my country. I'm proud of Ben Franklin(He was awesome), not America. None of my demographic based qualities have done anything(Age, race, nationality, sexual orientation), but individuals including myself have. In my opinion.
wemhim

I completely agree.

to be honest I was hoping for the nationalists & patriots, I doubt I'll get any now ...

They can be good or bad, depending on how patriotic someone is. If you're willing to die for your country, you're patriotic. If you want to die for your country, you're insane. That's how I see it.TheZ3nMan

[QUOTE="TheZ3nMan"]They can be good or bad, depending on how patriotic someone is. If you're willing to die for your country, you're patriotic. If you want to die for your country, you're insane. That's how I see it.wemhim

It's an unfortunate part of human nature. People like to group together. I'd call myself patriotic, I have pride in America. I'm glad to live here and have great rights:but I don't want to die defending my country. If there were insurmountable odds(like an, oh, say an alien invasion) I'd go fight. No one should die for their country, but it's a sad part of society...

"I have Pride in America" what specifically are you proud of?

Pride is a sense of one's own proper dignity or value. For me I interpret this as conceit.

Its ridiculous how somebody can take pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement of something they had nothing to do with. Possession, or association with a crowd contained by borders is pathetic.

Crowd is Untruth. The Single Individual is Truth.

Patriotism ... is a superstition artificially created and maintained through a network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that robs man of his self-respect and dignity, and increases his arrogance and conceit.

I see nothing wrong with patriotism just shows you that person has a deep pride in their country.gun65

again pride in what...?

the british empire was the biggest this world has ever known, do i take pride in that? of course not!

your "deep pride" is just an attempt to contain a crowd so you can belong to it.

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.

[QUOTE="gun65"]I see nothing wrong with patriotism just shows you that person has a deep pride in their country.soren008

again pride in what...?

the british empire was the biggest this world has ever known, do i take pride in that? of course not!

your "deep pride" is just an attempt to contain a crowd so you can belong to it.

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.

[QUOTE="gun65"]I see nothing wrong with patriotism just shows you that person has a deep pride in their country.soren008

again pride in what...?

the british empire was the biggest this world has ever known, do i take pride in that? of course not!

your "deep pride" is just an attempt to contain a crowd so you can belong to it.

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.

No,Pride in the things your country has done and what it stands for

America has stood for freedom,I take pride in that.

America has stood for equality of all people,I take pride in that.

You make patriotism seem like a high school clique.

i'm for it. why shouldn't you love the country you live in?shoeman12

The love of one's country is a splendid thing. But why should love stop at the border?

[QUOTE="soren008"]

[QUOTE="gun65"]I see nothing wrong with patriotism just shows you that person has a deep pride in their country.gun65

again pride in what...?

the british empire was the biggest this world has ever known, do i take pride in that? of course not!

your "deep pride" is just an attempt to contain a crowd so you can belong to it.

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.

No,Pride in the things your country has done and what it stands for

America has stood for freedom,I take pride in that.

America has stood for equality of all people,I take pride in that.

You make patriotism seem like a high school clique.

"America has stood for equality of all people,I take pride in that."

I'm not anti-american but I'll tell you as a fact that this is not true - Death Penalty, Health Care

all people?

Glad to see so many rational people on here. I was expecting more bigots to be honest. I think there is nothing beneficial to your character if you care that deeply which side of an imaginary line you're born. This is quite relevant in Britain right now as there's a suggeston that we should all recite a pledge of allegience. The idea sickens me. Patriotism is really just a tool to persuade young people to kill other young people and should not be applauded.

To be quite honest, we're all hypocrites to some degree, as I'm sure all of us would support our national sports team.

[QUOTE="gun65"][QUOTE="soren008"]

[QUOTE="gun65"]I see nothing wrong with patriotism just shows you that person has a deep pride in their country.soren008

again pride in what...?

the british empire was the biggest this world has ever known, do i take pride in that? of course not!

your "deep pride" is just an attempt to contain a crowd so you can belong to it.

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.

No,Pride in the things your country has done and what it stands for

America has stood for freedom,I take pride in that.

America has stood for equality of all people,I take pride in that.

You make patriotism seem like a high school clique.

"America has stood for equality of all people,I take pride in that."

I'm not anti-american but I'll tell you as a fact that this is not true - Death Penalty, Health Care

all people?

I don't see how America hasn't tried to treat people fairly.

But you seem to be angry that someone loves their country and has pride in what it stands for,why?

Glad to see so many rational people on here. I was expecting more bigots to be honest. I think there is nothing beneficial to your character if you care that deeply which side of an imaginary line you're born. This is quite relevant in Britain right now as there's a suggeston that we should all recite a pledge of allegience. The idea sickens me. Patriotism is really just a tool to persuade young people to kill other young people and should not be applauded.

To be quite honest, we're all hypocrites to some degree, as I'm sure all of us would support our national sports team.

Junkie_man

[QUOTE="Junkie_man"]

Glad to see so many rational people on here. I was expecting more bigots to be honest. I think there is nothing beneficial to your character if you care that deeply which side of an imaginary line you're born. This is quite relevant in Britain right now as there's a suggeston that we should all recite a pledge of allegience. The idea sickens me. Patriotism is really just a tool to persuade young people to kill other young people and should not be applauded.

To be quite honest, we're all hypocrites to some degree, as I'm sure all of us would support our national sports team.

wemhim

Personally, I think there is a line between morality in difficult decisions such as abortion and euthanasia, which is completely subjective, and things like racism. Altruism is objective, and I suppose that's what morality comes down to with a subjective interpretation.

[QUOTE="wemhim"][QUOTE="Junkie_man"]

Glad to see so many rational people on here. I was expecting more bigots to be honest. I think there is nothing beneficial to your character if you care that deeply which side of an imaginary line you're born. This is quite relevant in Britain right now as there's a suggeston that we should all recite a pledge of allegience. The idea sickens me. Patriotism is really just a tool to persuade young people to kill other young people and should not be applauded.

To be quite honest, we're all hypocrites to some degree, as I'm sure all of us would support our national sports team.

Junkie_man

Personally, I think there is a line between morality in difficult decisions such as abortion and euthanasia, which is completely subjective, and things like racism. Altruism is objective, and I suppose that's what morality comes down to with a subjective interpretation.

[QUOTE="Junkie_man"][QUOTE="wemhim"][QUOTE="Junkie_man"]

Glad to see so many rational people on here. I was expecting more bigots to be honest. I think there is nothing beneficial to your character if you care that deeply which side of an imaginary line you're born. This is quite relevant in Britain right now as there's a suggeston that we should all recite a pledge of allegience. The idea sickens me. Patriotism is really just a tool to persuade young people to kill other young people and should not be applauded.

To be quite honest, we're all hypocrites to some degree, as I'm sure all of us would support our national sports team.

wemhim

Personally, I think there is a line between morality in difficult decisions such as abortion and euthanasia, which is completely subjective, and things like racism. Altruism is objective, and I suppose that's what morality comes down to with a subjective interpretation.

A surprising number of people seem to equate nihilism with amorality.

A surprising number of people seem to equate nihilism with amorality.

Junkie_man

[QUOTE="Junkie_man"]

A surprising number of people seem to equate nihilism with amorality.

wemhim

That makes sense, I was just pointing out that nihilists aren't devoid of empathy because they realise it's illogical. It's not lke all nihillists are sociopaths.

""America has stood for equality of all people,I take pride in that." " gun65

I'm not anti-american but I'll tell you as a fact that this is not true - Death Penalty, Health Care

all people?

""I don't see how America hasn't tried to treat people fairly.

But you seem to be angry that someone loves their country and has pride in what it stands for,why?"" gun 65

didnt you read what I just said??

I'm not angry at all. You can love your country but don't take pride in an equality that doesnt exist.

I believe the death penalty to be murder plain and simple

I really don't intend this thread to be anti-american in any way...

[QUOTE="wemhim"][QUOTE="Junkie_man"]

A surprising number of people seem to equate nihilism with amorality.

Junkie_man

That makes sense, I was just pointing out that nihilists aren't devoid of empathy because they realise it's illogical. It's not lke all nihillists are sociopaths.

I believe the death penalty to be murder plain and simple

soren008

Me too. It crosses the line between justice and revenge.

""America has stood for equality of all people,I take pride in that." "

I'm not anti-american but I'll tell you as a fact that this is not true - Death Penalty, Health Care

all people?

""I don't see how America hasn't tried to treat people fairly.

But you seem to be angry that someone loves their country and has pride in what it stands for,why?""

didnt you read what I just said??

I'm not angry at all. You can love your country but don't take pride in an equality that doesnt exist.

I believe the death penalty to be murder plain and simple

America's broken health care system - one where 50 million people are entirely without insurance coverage and tens of millions more struggle to have the treatment they need approved.

I really don't intend this thread to be anti-american in any way...

soren008

Just because you believe it is,doesn't make it true. If a criminal commits such a horrible act as to bring the death penalty upon himself I have no sympathy for him.

America isn't perfect but I do believe it is a great place to live.

""America has stood for equality of all people,I take pride in that." " gun65

I'm not anti-american but I'll tell you as a fact that this is not true - Death Penalty, Health Care

all people?

""I don't see how America hasn't tried to treat people fairly.

But you seem to be angry that someone loves their country and has pride in what it stands for,why?"" gun 65

didnt you read what I just said??

I'm not angry at all. You can love your country but don't take pride in an equality that doesnt exist.

I believe the death penalty to be murder plain and simple

I really don't intend this thread to be anti-american in any way...

soren008

It seems most people here are in favor of cosmopolitanism, where basically we're all citizens of the globe rather than of a particular country. While I do believe to some extent in individualism and in the fact that the nation is no more than a facade, it still provides a moral bond between people that we all belong to the same country, and I do believe that it gives a sense of belonging. You only need to look at the World Cup or any other international sport tournament and how the people of a nation are united behind their national team to see that nationalism also has its positive effects.sthadji

fair enough the world cup is a honourable excuse to be a patriotic yob

but this is a mild competition, I wouldn't accociate nationalism with the world cup, its the wrong word

"Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race." albert einstein

please watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQEcMTSgg5w its funny but it has a huge chunk of truth in it.

I don't believe it .... how rubbish ....

gamespot is overrun with ignorant nationalists & patriots and not one came to share his views???????

I should have called my thread title "America - we kick ass!"

I don't believe it .... how rubbish ....

gamespot is overrun with ignorant nationalists & patriots and not one came to share his views???????

I should have called my thread title "America - we kick ass!"

soren008

would have been better:P

I don't believe it .... how rubbish ....

gamespot is overrun with ignorant nationalists & patriots and not one came to share his views???????

I should have called my thread title "America - we kick ass!"

soren008

[QUOTE="Junkie_man"][QUOTE="wemhim"][QUOTE="Junkie_man"]

A surprising number of people seem to equate nihilism with amorality.

wemhim

That makes sense, I was just pointing out that nihilists aren't devoid of empathy because they realise it's illogical. It's not lke all nihillists are sociopaths.

Altogether nationalism is something perculiar.

You will often find it strongest and most violent where there is the lowest degree of culture.

Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. ''Patriotism'' is its cult. It should hardly be necessary to say, that by ''patriotism'' I mean that attitude which puts the own nation above humanity, above the principles of truth and justice; not the loving interest in one's own nation, which is the concern with the nation's spiritual as much as with its material welfare /never with its power over other nations. Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one's country which is not part of one's love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship.

Erich Fromm

H. L. Mencken~

In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell.

I'm my own individual first, an American second, and a human being last. I look out for myself and my family, then my country and fellow citizens, and then everybody else. If you think we are ever going to progress to the point of a world-wide utopia, you're dreaming.its_me_

dont worry I'm not, as long as theres little fellows like you

[QUOTE="gun65"]I see nothing wrong with patriotism just shows you that person has a deep pride in their country.soren008

again pride in what...?

the british empire was the biggest this world has ever known, do i take pride in that? of course not!

your "deep pride" is just an attempt to contain a crowd so you can belong to it.

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.

Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. ''Patriotism'' is its cult. It should hardly be necessary to say, that by ''patriotism'' I mean that attitude which puts the own nation above humanity, above the principles of truth and justice; not the loving interest in one's own nation, which is the concern with the nation's spiritual as much as with its material welfare /never with its power over other nations. Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one's country which is not part of one's love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship.

Erich Fromm

soren008

What I was going to say but put far more eloquently. ;)

Patriotism and Nationalism means you deem the welfare of a minorty more important than the welfare of the majority.