North Korea

What if they're sane and sensible and we, in the west, have been brainwashed to shit? What if they do have this very real nuclear program to protect them from us?

@oi_oi_spanky: Well, even a US newspaper---the Washington Post---admitted a year ago that the US military's war crimes against North Korea during the Korean War lay at the root of North Korea's anti-US paranoia.

Washington Post: The U.S. war crime North Korea won’t forget

The hate, though, is not all manufactured. It is rooted in a fact-based narrative, one that North Korea obsessively remembers and the United States blithely forgets.

Pointing out US war crimes isn't very popular, though. I'm dismissed as a troll on many forums (including this one) for doing it.

Not like there's much to protect.

One city that for the most part is a fake facade and the rest outside of the city being farming communities that are struggling to grow enough food.

@Stesilaus: it was 70 years ago hardly anybody involved is even alive anymore. Seems irrational to still be angry.

Their nuclear weapon program is not for protecting their shit country from us, it´s to blackmail South Korea for money.

Well the Armenians are still upset about the genocide that the Ottoman Turks committed a century ago, and the number of victims of that genocide is thought to be "only" 1.5 million, vs ~4 million killed by US bombing of the Korean peninsula.

And just yesterday thousands of people marched through Auschwitz to pay homage to victims of another Holocaust that ended more than 70 years ago. I think few people would suggest that they were all irrational.

I do think it's one thing to pay respects, and another entirely to be angry at a group of people for what an entirely different group of people did.

Both sides are messed up. The US has a long history of messing with North Korea. But the fact remains that the country is ruled by psychotics. Kim Il Sung was a straight crazy. He would only sleep facing true north at 100 meters above sea levels, in blankets that required 700,000 sparrows to be killed. When he died, he continued to be the president. There are many more insane, bs sounding facts about him beyond that. His son, Kim Jong Il claimed to hit 9 hole in ones his first time golfing, and required prayers in his name every day, in sporting events etc etc. When he died, he became the head of the party. His son, Kim Jong Un, is equally crazy. Feeding advisors to dogs and sharks, coupled with serious ankle problems due to an obsession with cheese. They form a trinity.

That type of crazy is no fault of the United States.

If you don't get why people call you a troll, then god help you. You also seem (and are) blind to the evils of Russia, North Korea and any nation that isn't the USA, to the point of harping on it and over-exaggerating it. Worst part is you swear up and down the USA is the sole evil in the world and Russia and North Korea are perfect saints, victims of Murcan propaganda. You are a troll, and a bad one at that.

BTW, poof of what I said about you.

Much of it is cooked up daily in Pyongyang. Like all dictatorial regimes, the Kim family dynasty needs an endless existential struggle against a fearsome enemy. Such a threat rationalizes massive military spending and excuses decades of privation, while keeping dissenting mouths shut and political prisons open.

That is the REAL reason behind it. Also that 20% killed is a lie. The NK population only declined by 0.68% between 1949 and 1953 and rose by 2,05% between 1953 and 1960.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_North_Korea

Stop your bad trolling kid.

People forget and others ignore what the Soviet Union did to it.

When China says they're done with your shit then you know it you not them.

But this is what the discussion is about. Is it really like that? Or are you told to believe that?

Also, I feel the need to clarify that when I use the word "us" I mean we the collective west and not the United States.

The United States of America also needs an endless existential struggle against a fearsome enemy. That's why G. W. Bush elevated poverty-stricken Third World people to grave national threats and launched the interminable "War on Terror".

@TheWalkingGhost said:

Such a threat rationalizes massive military spending and excuses decades of privation, while keeping dissenting mouths shut and political prisons open.

Again, how is that any different from the United States? There, too, manufactured threats are used to justify massive military spending while social programs are cut, leaving the poor to languish in homelessness and destitution.

And while the US prisons aren't ostensibly political ones, they're used to incarcerate Americans at a greater rate than any other nation on Earth incarcerates its citizens.

There exists pictures that show that is the case, witness statements from people who's left North Korea.

Granted none of us has actually been there and seen it for ourselves, mainly cause the country has shut itself in. So wether it actually is like that or not is unknown for both me and you and so we'd rely on smuggled out pictures and statements to paint a picture of how it might be in North Korea.

Yeah US has done and does wrong, but North Korea takes the cake. At least the US does not starve its citizens. Not intentionally, at least...I mean the US will let you starve via poverty (though it does offer assistance), but it won't force you to starve.

We can also talk shit about our leaders and possible leaders, which is a HUGE relief right now; I'd go crazy if I couldn't talk smack about Kim

So if we are the crazy ones, well, I'm happy to be loco.

@Stesilaus The United States of America also needs an endless existential struggle against a fearsome enemy. That's why G. W. Bush elevated poverty-stricken Third World people to grave national threats and launched the interminable "War on Terror".

There you go again,downgrading others to make the USA look like a monster. Those poor people were radical terrorists who just killed 3000 plus people. And it wasn't the whole, just a small sect of legit enemies. This is why you get called a troll.

@Stesilaus Again, how is that any different from the United States? There, too, manufactured threats are used to justify massive military spending while social programs are cut, leaving the poor to languish in homelessness and destitution.

Did you even read that comment or just give a kneejerk reaction? And why do you keep downplaying others to bash America? Troll.

The social programs get cut as part of a political ideologically, that would happen regardless of any outside forces. Also, unlike NK we offer more help and don't do this to silence dissent

@Stesilaus And while the US prisons aren't ostensibly political ones, they're used to incarcerate Americans at a greater rate than any other nation on Earth incarcerates its citizens.

More of your famous trolling. Those are people who commit actual crimes, not silence political dissent. In NK it is used to silence people, not much else. This is the third time you ignored the evils of the outside world, played them off as victims and lied and overstated what the US does in an effort to deamonize it. This is why you get called and are a troll.

.

But really, if I post a picture of my knob, and other people verify that it is indeed my knob, is it really my knob? I mean, it could be anybody's.

Thus making it second hand information. The overall majority of information in the world is second hand documentation/information, If you take a piece of paper and write " The grass is green" and then hand it to someone that hasn't seen you actually write the note yourself then it's second hand information.

Now second hand information might be unreliable because of it, however if you then also recieve other second hand informations about the same subject and very little to contradict it then the reliability that the info is correct increases. Which it needs to be since first hand information is only presented to those that actually witness the information firsthand, while if they then tell others who were not present about it then it becomes second hand information.

So if you did post a picture of your knob and others verified it then it would be second hand information since first hand information would be to have it shown while we were in the same room as you. Likewise with North Korea. We can't say with a 100% accuracy that North Korea is the way it is from the pictures and witness statements told us, However with the large amount of info that shows the same result and little that shows otherwise then we'd need to consider the images and statements as credible, most cause none of us have actually been in North Korea and seen their "knobs" for ourselves.

So, you finaly understand what the topic is about. What if it's YOUR government telling YOU lies?

What about? North Korea?

I get my opinion about that country based on the pictures I see and statements I hear from those that have left the country, not what the Norwegian Government tells me about it. I form my opinion based on the second hand information available and a part of my own logical reasoning.

And again, who are you trusting to bring you this information? Have you met these people? Why are you trusting these people whos face you have never seen?

Again cause their information, despite being different also has similarities which helps construct a picture and it's more likely to be authentic when it's stories and pictures from people who's actually been there. Perhaps some of it is wrong, perhaps it is not. On the flip side, why do you not trust the info they are showing you?

Why would people lie about what they've seen or experienced in North Korea? Why would the Red Cross workers in North Korea lie about local clinics there lacking medication and using herbal medicine as a replacement? Why would they lie about people starving due to a flood and difficulty to grow crops? That the majority in the farming communities lack indoor plumbing?

What reason would there be to lie about such things?

I could see it. I'm no history buff, but it wasn't until Stesi posted an essay about the Korean-American situation back in the late 40's, early 50's, that I realized how ignorant I was

Why would the Red Cross workers in North Korea lie about local clinics there lacking medication and using herbal medicine as a replacement? Why would they lie about people starving due to a flood and difficulty to grow crops? That the majority in the farming communities lack indoor plumbing?

sounds like China 25 years ago ^^

Meanwhile, Kim Jong Un has just embarked on a campaign of conciliation that's so comprehensive that it should stand him in good stead to receive a Nobel Peace Prize.

The magnificent statesman has ...

• declared that North Korea will not use nuclear weapons unless its sovereignty is violated (a constraint that the US has never imposed on its own use of nuclear weapons),
• confirmed North Korea's commitment to the nonproliferation of nuclear weapons and to the "denuclearization" of the world,
• stated his readiness to improve ties with hostile nations,
• called for talks with the militaristic US garrison state of South Korea, and
• stated his desire to increase international trade and engagement in the global economy.

Full Story on MSN

@Stesilaus: pui ... what a relieve ^^

@Treflis: Please, I'm not asking you justify your opinion although some people here seem to read the thread title and skip the post. Now, just one more time I'll put it out there, you think and then you reply please. What if the North Korean government is telling its people the truth and you have had nothing but a pack of lies rammed into you through, shall we say, easily obtainable data? I mean, it's not the North Korean people feeding you this "information" is it? Do you finaly understand?

I do understand but If you're not asking for my opinion and why I view what I do, then what discussion is there in this topic?

Cause clearly me agreeing that the info you can find can be unreliable due to being second hand information by default was not the case, but rather my opinion on wether I believe the information that is being presented or I am being lied to. Clearly now that is also not what you wished for me to answer since my answer to that is I do believe a good amount of the info rather then what the North Korean government is presenting.

Not to mention you asked me in your last post why I had the views that I do, I wasn't supposed to answer/justify why I held the position that I do when you asked me?

^^^

Can anyone please tell me why he is defending his view when I specifically stated that it's not relevent of the topic multiple times? Anyone?

But this is what the discussion is about. Is it really like that? Or are you told to believe that?

So, you finaly understand what the topic is about. What if it's YOUR government telling YOU lies?

And again, who are you trusting to bring you this information? Have you met these people? Why are you trusting these people whos face you have never seen?

You asked me questions, I answered.

If you didn't want me to answer the questions you gave me then you should've either not asked me the questions or told me not to answer them if they were retorical.

^^^

Anyone?