Poll for US citizens

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BuddithTheBear

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#1 BuddithTheBear
Member since 2009 • 92 Posts

Yote what you think and say why in your post.

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Pirate700

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#2 Pirate700
Member since 2008 • 46465 Posts

Do I believe it's alive?

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XD4NTESINF3RNOX

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#3 XD4NTESINF3RNOX
Member since 2008 • 7438 Posts
didn't know the US constitution was alive...how does it move around?
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MrPraline

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#4 MrPraline
Member since 2008 • 21351 Posts
Yes, it's a sentient organism.
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Wilfred_Owen

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#5 Wilfred_Owen
Member since 2005 • 20964 Posts
We're all alive in our own "special" way. Don't ask me why I put quotations around special. I don't know either.
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Fun_MallYak

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#6 Fun_MallYak
Member since 2009 • 44 Posts
didn't know the US constitution was alive...how does it move around? XD4NTESINF3RNOX
I didn't know trees were alive. How do they move around?
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Pirate700

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#7 Pirate700
Member since 2008 • 46465 Posts

[QUOTE="XD4NTESINF3RNOX"]didn't know the US constitution was alive...how does it move around? Fun_MallYak
I didn't know trees were alive. How do they move around?

Wait, what?

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PolskaKing

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#8 PolskaKing
Member since 2008 • 39592 Posts
old papers live? Since when? I want an explanation!!! :x
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Hewkii

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#9 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts
yes, because assuming a bunch of pre-Industrial farmers had enough insight to draft a document that is still relevant after 250 years is foolish at best.
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dann14v

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#10 dann14v
Member since 2005 • 689 Posts
[QUOTE="XD4NTESINF3RNOX"]didn't know the US constitution was alive...how does it move around? Fun_MallYak
I didn't know trees were alive. How do they move around?

+1.
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LJS9502_basic

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#11 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180110 Posts
[QUOTE="XD4NTESINF3RNOX"]didn't know the US constitution was alive...how does it move around? Fun_MallYak
I didn't know trees were alive. How do they move around?

Uh....trees are alive dude.
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Free_Marxet

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#12 Free_Marxet
Member since 2009 • 1549 Posts
[QUOTE="Fun_MallYak"][QUOTE="XD4NTESINF3RNOX"]didn't know the US constitution was alive...how does it move around? LJS9502_basic
I didn't know trees were alive. How do they move around?

Uh....trees are alive dude.

Unless theyre dead
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Fun_MallYak

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#13 Fun_MallYak
Member since 2009 • 44 Posts

[QUOTE="Fun_MallYak"][QUOTE="XD4NTESINF3RNOX"]didn't know the US constitution was alive...how does it move around? LJS9502_basic
I didn't know trees were alive. How do they move around?

Uh....trees are alive dude.

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Pocky5678

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#14 Pocky5678
Member since 2005 • 206 Posts

yes, because assuming a bunch of pre-Industrial farmers had enough insight to draft a document that is still relevant after 250 years is foolish at best.Hewkii

Ah, yes. The great farmers of this country providing us with wheat, apples, and a Constitution since 1776! lol sorry i had to

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LJS9502_basic

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#15 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180110 Posts
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Fun_MallYak"]I didn't know trees were alive. How do they move around?Free_Marxet
Uh....trees are alive dude.

Unless theyre dead

Same can be said of people. Your point?
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pis3rch

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#16 pis3rch
Member since 2006 • 1695 Posts

[QUOTE="Free_Marxet"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Uh....trees are alive dude.LJS9502_basic
Unless theyre dead

Same can be said of people. Your point?

The first dude implied that the constitution wasn't alive because it doesn't move around. The second dude owned him by saying that trees are alive yet they don't move around.

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alphamale1989

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#17 alphamale1989
Member since 2008 • 3134 Posts
I voted 'no' since the idea of the US constitution being a "living and breathing document" doesn't make any sense to me.
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LJS9502_basic

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#18 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180110 Posts

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Free_Marxet"] Unless theyre deadpis3rch

Same can be said of people. Your point?

The first dude implied that the constitution wasn't alive because it doesn't move around. The second dude owned him by saying that trees are alive yet they don't move around.

Well technically if they grow....they move.
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Pirate700

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#19 Pirate700
Member since 2008 • 46465 Posts

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Free_Marxet"] Unless theyre deadpis3rch

Same can be said of people. Your point?

The first dude implied that the constitution wasn't alive because it doesn't move around. The second dude owned him by saying that trees are alive yet they don't move around.

Trust me, nobody was owned by that.

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RockysCatnipCo

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#20 RockysCatnipCo
Member since 2005 • 3165 Posts

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Free_Marxet"] Unless theyre deadpis3rch

Same can be said of people. Your point?

The first dude implied that the constitution wasn't alive because it doesn't move around. The second dude owned him by saying that trees are alive yet they don't move around.

When are people going to finally stop saying "owned?"
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0Tyler0

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#21 0Tyler0
Member since 2008 • 2602 Posts
I do not believe it is because it's paper. Paper is not living and breathing. Therefore, the US Constitution is not living and breathing. What are you trying to get at?
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Fun_MallYak

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#23 Fun_MallYak
Member since 2009 • 44 Posts

[QUOTE="Fun_MallYak"][QUOTE="XD4NTESINF3RNOX"]didn't know the US constitution was alive...how does it move around? Lilyanne46

I didn't know trees were alive. How do they move around?

Trees are living things, just like plants. :|

Whooooosh!
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LJS9502_basic

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#24 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180110 Posts
When people say the constitution is living and breathing they are talking metaphorically not literally. Just to clear that up.
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LJS9502_basic

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#25 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180110 Posts

[QUOTE="Fun_MallYak"][QUOTE="XD4NTESINF3RNOX"]didn't know the US constitution was alive...how does it move around? Lilyanne46

I didn't know trees were alive. How do they move around?

Trees are living things, just like plants. :|

Trees ARE plants.
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XD4NTESINF3RNOX

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#26 XD4NTESINF3RNOX
Member since 2008 • 7438 Posts

I was kidding cmon guys :|

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MrPraline

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#28 MrPraline
Member since 2008 • 21351 Posts
[QUOTE="pis3rch"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Same can be said of people. Your point?LJS9502_basic

The first dude implied that the constitution wasn't alive because it doesn't move around. The second dude owned him by saying that trees are alive yet they don't move around.

Well technically if they grow....they move.

I wouldn't say so, the tree itself does not change location.
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super_mario_128

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#29 super_mario_128
Member since 2006 • 23884 Posts
just like plants. :|Lilyanne46
A tree IS a plant. :|
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Fun_MallYak

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#30 Fun_MallYak
Member since 2009 • 44 Posts

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="pis3rch"] The first dude implied that the constitution wasn't alive because it doesn't move around. The second dude owned him by saying that trees are alive yet they don't move around.

MrPraline

Well technically if they grow....they move.

I wouldn't say so, the tree itself does not change location.

Apparently boulders move constantly too, because of erosion

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LJS9502_basic

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#31 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180110 Posts

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="pis3rch"] The first dude implied that the constitution wasn't alive because it doesn't move around. The second dude owned him by saying that trees are alive yet they don't move around.

MrPraline

Well technically if they grow....they move.

I wouldn't say so, the tree itself does not change location.

Changing location doesn't mean they don't move. In fact they do. The branches bend and twist toward the sun you know. Getting height is movement as well. I'm moving my hands to type but I'm not changing location. Does that mean I'm not moving?

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super_mario_128

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#33 super_mario_128
Member since 2006 • 23884 Posts

[QUOTE="MrPraline"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Well technically if they grow....they move.Fun_MallYak

I wouldn't say so, the tree itself does not change location.

Apparently boulders move constantly too, because of erosion

Deposition via erosion is the best kind of deposition.
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goth_bacon

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#35 goth_bacon
Member since 2007 • 1110 Posts
I think people are missing the point here. By living and breathing, the TC refers to the ability of the Constitution to change. In which case, it is indeed living and breathing because over the years amendments have added new articles to it.
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Fun_MallYak

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#36 Fun_MallYak
Member since 2009 • 44 Posts
[QUOTE="Fun_MallYak"]

[QUOTE="MrPraline"] I wouldn't say so, the tree itself does not change location. super_mario_128

Apparently boulders move constantly too, because of erosion

Deposition via erosion is the best kind of deposition.

Oh sm128, you put the eros into erosion
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Fun_MallYak

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#37 Fun_MallYak
Member since 2009 • 44 Posts

[QUOTE="Fun_MallYak"]

[QUOTE="MrPraline"] I wouldn't say so, the tree itself does not change location. Lilyanne46

Apparently boulders move constantly too, because of erosion

Boulders are not living things. :| Erosion moves them, not the boulder itself.

Which implies that boulders move constantly, yes. I never stated what the cause of their movement was. And also DEAR GOD THIS THREAD IS AWFUL.
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one4damoney

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#39 one4damoney
Member since 2006 • 405 Posts

Wow this topic really flew over some peoples heads.

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LJS9502_basic

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#41 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180110 Posts
I think people are missing the point here. By living and breathing, the TC refers to the ability of the Constitution to change. In which case, it is indeed living and breathing because over the years amendments have added new articles to it.goth_bacon
I already alluded to that.......but obviously tree movement is more pressing.:P
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super_mario_128

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#42 super_mario_128
Member since 2006 • 23884 Posts
Oh sm128, you put the eros into erosionFun_MallYak
I put the Eros into a lot of things. ...That sounded a lot better in my head.
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Teenaged

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#43 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

[QUOTE="pis3rch"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Same can be said of people. Your point?LJS9502_basic

The first dude implied that the constitution wasn't alive because it doesn't move around. The second dude owned him by saying that trees are alive yet they don't move around.

Well technically if they grow....they move.

The key factor here is the "around". Phrasal verb: "move around". Refers to movement from one spot to another, not just any sort of movement.

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Teenaged

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#44 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

And, TC, what do you mean by the poll question?

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lynxed

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#45 lynxed
Member since 2009 • 129 Posts

Lol, op, way to explain :roll: (I think it's good to raise literacy on this issue, though) This is a big debate among legal scholars and judges today.

Originalists believe that the Constitution should be understood as our founding fathers/the Congress that adopted the amendment in question saw their additions to the Constitution. For example, the right to privacy/right to abortion was (arguably) not something that the adopters of the 14th Amendment considered to be a fundamental liberty protected by the Constitution. Originalists believe that, because of this, there's no such right to privacy or abortion. Originalists' main argument is that to interpret the Constitution as "evolving" in a certain direction basically lets judges read whatever protections or rights they want into the Constitution, so long as they can somewhat justify it. Originalists prefer to have some grounding to avoid arbitrary and baseless decisions.

The Living Constitution is a concept advocated by those who believe the Constitution changes to adapt to new developments within culture and society. They do believe that we can adopt heretofore unrecognized Constitutional rights to do XYZ, regardless of whether the adopters of the 14th Amendment contemplated that particular right. Or, for another example, that"you have the rightto remain silent..." under the Fifth Amendmentintroduced in Miranda v. Arizona comes from a desire for adequate safeguards to constitutional rights andis drawn from the judges' opinions rather than the intent of the authors of the Constitution. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Constitutionfor more, if you're interested.

Currently, originalism is generally associated with conservatives (e.g. Justices Scalia and Thomas), while the Living Constitution is associated with liberals (the Warren Court, Justice Breyer).

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Free_Marxet

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#46 Free_Marxet
Member since 2009 • 1549 Posts
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Free_Marxet"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Uh....trees are alive dude.

Unless theyre dead

Same can be said of people. Your point?

Why did you get so offended?
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Teenaged

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#47 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

Lol, op, way to explain :roll: (I think it's good to raise literacy on this issue, though) This is a big debate among legal scholars and judges today.

Originalists believe that the Constitution should be understood as our founding fathers/the Congress that adopted the amendment in question saw their additions to the Constitution. For example, the right to privacy/right to abortion was (arguably) not something that the adopters of the 14th Amendment considered to be a fundamental liberty protected by the Constitution. Originalists believe that, because of this, there's no such right to privacy or abortion. Originalists' main argument is that to interpret the Constitution as "evolving" in a certain direction basically lets judges read whatever protections or rights they want into the Constitution, so long as they can somewhat justify it. Originalists prefer to have some grounding to avoid arbitrary and baseless decisions.

The Living Constitution is a concept advocated by those who believe the Constitution changes to adapt to new developments within culture and society. They do believe that we can adopt heretofore unrecognized Constitutional rights to do XYZ, regardless of whether the adopters of the 14th Amendment contemplated that particular right. Or, for another example, that"you have the rightto remain silent..." under the Fifth Amendmentintroduced in Miranda v. Arizona comes from a desire for adequate safeguards to constitutional rights andis drawn from the judges' opinions rather than the intent of the authors of the Constitution. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Constitutionfor more, if you're interested.

Currently, originalism is generally associated with conservatives (e.g. Justices Scalia and Thomas), while the Living Constitution is associated with liberals (the Warren Court, Justice Breyer).

lynxed

Thanks for clearing that up. :)

In that case I dont think you can characterise any constitution of any country as either. The constitution itself cannot be any of those. Its how a constitution is treated as.

In my opinion constitutions should be treated as Living Constitutions to a great degree.

I think its wrong to assume that the founding fathers of any constitution of any country were so insightful that the constitution they made has no need to be revised and/or corrected.

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double_decker

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#48 double_decker
Member since 2006 • 146090 Posts
When people say the constitution is living and breathing they are talking metaphorically not literally. Just to clear that up.LJS9502_basic
You'd think that such a thing wouldn't have to be explained but I guess not. :lol: I beleive it is yes, because it's a much different place than it was back then. So I voted yes, but not because I thought the document itself was alive. :P
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lynxed

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#49 lynxed
Member since 2009 • 129 Posts
[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="lynxed"]

Lol, op, way to explain :roll: (I think it's good to raise literacy on this issue, though) This is a big debate among legal scholars and judges today.

Originalists believe that the Constitution should be understood as our founding fathers/the Congress that adopted the amendment in question saw their additions to the Constitution. For example, the right to privacy/right to abortion was (arguably) not something that the adopters of the 14th Amendment considered to be a fundamental liberty protected by the Constitution. Originalists believe that, because of this, there's no such right to privacy or abortion. Originalists' main argument is that to interpret the Constitution as "evolving" in a certain direction basically lets judges read whatever protections or rights they want into the Constitution, so long as they can somewhat justify it. Originalists prefer to have some grounding to avoid arbitrary and baseless decisions.

The Living Constitution is a concept advocated by those who believe the Constitution changes to adapt to new developments within culture and society. They do believe that we can adopt heretofore unrecognized Constitutional rights to do XYZ, regardless of whether the adopters of the 14th Amendment contemplated that particular right. Or, for another example, that"you have the rightto remain silent..." under the Fifth Amendmentintroduced in Miranda v. Arizona comes from a desire for adequate safeguards to constitutional rights andis drawn from the judges' opinions rather than the intent of the authors of the Constitution. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Constitutionfor more, if you're interested.

Currently, originalism is generally associated with conservatives (e.g. Justices Scalia and Thomas), while the Living Constitution is associated with liberals (the Warren Court, Justice Breyer).

Thanks for clearing that up. :)

In that case I dont think you can characterise any constitution of any country as either. The constitution itself cannot be any of those. Its how a constitution is treated as.

In my opinion constitutions should be treated as Living Constitutions to a great degree.

I think its wrong to assume that the founding fathers of any constitution of any country were so insightful that the constitution they made has no need to be revised and/or corrected.

YW, but I do want to point out that the U.S. Constitution *does* have an amendment process in Article V. IMO, though, it's completely substandard, as it requires 3/4 of the states to ratify any amendment. I think that slows change too forcibly - it's rare you're going to get that many states to move quickly enough on an issue or even get that many to agree at all. This is why the amendment guaranteeing equal rights between the genders was never passed, and the level of protection for people facing gender discrimination is now in a very weird place. Look up the Equal Rights Amendment if you're interested.
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Teenaged

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#50 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="lynxed"]

Lol, op, way to explain :roll: (I think it's good to raise literacy on this issue, though) This is a big debate among legal scholars and judges today.

Originalists believe that the Constitution should be understood as our founding fathers/the Congress that adopted the amendment in question saw their additions to the Constitution. For example, the right to privacy/right to abortion was (arguably) not something that the adopters of the 14th Amendment considered to be a fundamental liberty protected by the Constitution. Originalists believe that, because of this, there's no such right to privacy or abortion. Originalists' main argument is that to interpret the Constitution as "evolving" in a certain direction basically lets judges read whatever protections or rights they want into the Constitution, so long as they can somewhat justify it. Originalists prefer to have some grounding to avoid arbitrary and baseless decisions.

The Living Constitution is a concept advocated by those who believe the Constitution changes to adapt to new developments within culture and society. They do believe that we can adopt heretofore unrecognized Constitutional rights to do XYZ, regardless of whether the adopters of the 14th Amendment contemplated that particular right. Or, for another example, that"you have the rightto remain silent..." under the Fifth Amendmentintroduced in Miranda v. Arizona comes from a desire for adequate safeguards to constitutional rights andis drawn from the judges' opinions rather than the intent of the authors of the Constitution. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Constitutionfor more, if you're interested.

Currently, originalism is generally associated with conservatives (e.g. Justices Scalia and Thomas), while the Living Constitution is associated with liberals (the Warren Court, Justice Breyer).

lynxed

Thanks for clearing that up. :)

In that case I dont think you can characterise any constitution of any country as either. The constitution itself cannot be any of those. Its how a constitution is treated as.

In my opinion constitutions should be treated as Living Constitutions to a great degree.

I think its wrong to assume that the founding fathers of any constitution of any country were so insightful that the constitution they made has no need to be revised and/or corrected.

YW, but I do want to point out that the U.S. Constitution *does* have an amendment process in Article V. IMO, though, it's completely substandard, as it requires 3/4 of the states to ratify any amendment. I think that slows change too forcibly - it's rare you're going to get that many states to move quickly enough on an issue or even get that many to agree at all. This is why the amendment guaranteeing equal rights between the genders was never passed, and the level of protection for people facing gender discrimination is now in a very weird place. Look up the Equal Rights Amendment if you're interested.

Yeah I guess the specific amendments of a constitution might give it a predisposition as to how easily it can be altered and to what level.