POLL - Is individualism good or evil?

Well, I've been thinking, and I've come to the conclusion that individualism (the belief that self-interest is virtuous, a la Ayn Rand) is inherently unnatural. People always talk about how individual rights trump everything, but we need to remember that we as humans are social animals. Physical isolation is not a natural occurence (and has actually been found to be unhealthy for human growth).

To relate this to politics, I just seems like we need to balance individual responsibility (rights) with obligation to community (for example, community service). I don't see why Libertarian and conservative types are so ardently opposed to required service of any kind, when governments in places like Europe give incentives for such things. Is Europe really such a backwards place? They don't embrace greed and individualism to the extent that we Americans do on a daily basis, and they have lower infant mortality rates, better healthcare, a generally happier populace, etc.

Sorry if it sounds like I ranted...

Thoughts? I realize that everyone pretty much believes in individual rights (except the religious right), so I'm not expecting a debate on social policy (well, maybe gov. implementation of programs...).

So, are individualism, consumerism, and greed giving us a better country (or world in general)?

Greed is not really the same as individualism. Greed and excessive competition as in our society actually leads to the crushing of many individuals. That's why most people in the world especially in Africa and Latin America (those who live in the favelas) remain poor and only a few (like Bill Gates) succeed and become millionaires and billionaires. Individualism respects the needs of every individual while capitalism and greed does not really respect the needs and desires of every individual. So greed in my opnion =/= individualism

individualism? don't make me ****ing sick

Greed is not really the same as individualism. Greed and excessive competition as in our society actually leads to the crushing of many individuals. That's why most people in the world especially in Africa and Latin America (those who live in the favelas) remain poor and only a few (like Bill Gates) succeed and become millionaires and billionaires. Individualism respects the needs of every individual while capitalism and greed does not really respect the needs and desires of every individual. So greed in my opnion =/= individualism

X4D

Individualism is the respecting of other people's rights without being obligated to provide them. You have the right to live, but not at the cost of draining away from other people's lives.thepwninator

The ones who are really draining away from other people's lives are in my opinon the greedy employers (the bosses) and the corporate masters.

[QUOTE="thepwninator"]Individualism is the respecting of other people's rights without being obligated to provide them. You have the right to live, but not at the cost of draining away from other people's lives.X4D

The ones who are really draining away from other people's lives are in my opinon the greedy employers(the bosses)and the corporate masters.

its bad because we as people are supposed to be one.SkweebsThePanda

Individualism is good, but one should not ever let that go to their head. It's one thing to be individualistic, but another to be narcicistic.

Individualism is good, but one should not ever let that go to their head. It's one thing to be individualistic, but another to be narcicistic.

Mr_Oblivio

[QUOTE="SkweebsThePanda"]its bad because we as people are supposed to be one.thepwninator

[QUOTE="SkweebsThePanda"]its bad because we as people are supposed to be one.thepwninator

[QUOTE="thepwninator"][QUOTE="SkweebsThePanda"]its bad because we as people are supposed to be one.SkweebsThePanda

no. but expalin why god made us in a reflection of himself. therefore we all are related and alike therefore one. you simply sound like someone trying to be different when you know yo u are not. noob.SkweebsThePanda

Thesubjective theory of value is obviously false. We all need air, water, food, a home etc. So the vast majority of our needs are similar. So I think we need to replace the subjective theory of value with an objective theory of value of some kind. And since God is one we are one.

We all act in our own self-interest - always

In one way or another everything we do comes back to our own self interest.

It's just how we're programmed.

[QUOTE="thepwninator"][QUOTE="SkweebsThePanda"]its bad because we as people are supposed to be one.SkweebsThePanda

The problem with your statement is that you state God created us as a reflection of himself, yet you ignored that if a God created us, he made us individuals with free will.There are also passages in the Holy Bible (assuming that you are a Christian) where God punished the Jewish people for giving up their individuality in favor of collectivism to King Samuel under the guise of comfort.

Individualism is neither good nor evil, its the way of life. Everybody here is a free mind making choices for him/herself. If a man chooses to share his wealth and his time, that's his business. If not, oh well. That's freedom, folks. The result of what man does for himself can be analyzed as good or evil, but the act of using his god/nature given ability to exercise free will and individuality is natural.

I don't want to turn this into a religion thread, but I will say this: you have no proof that God exists, and, as a result, I have no reason to believe he does. You simply have the assertion that he does. You cannot base arguments on unfounded assertions.thepwninator

There is actually lot of evidence that some kind of God exists. However I must say that this God if he is really omnipotent, omnipresent and all-knowing has a quite sadistic sense of humor: creating plagues, tsunamis, droughts, starvations, thousands of horrible diseases, deadly insects, predatory animals, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, floods etc. These phenomena kill thousands upon thousands of people every year. Or maybe this is all just a test to see how we, his creations, deal with difficulties. So either God is evil or he is not all-capable: He is not capable to prevent all human suffering or all these bad phenomena from occuring.

[QUOTE="thepwninator"][QUOTE="SkweebsThePanda"]its bad because we as people are supposed to be one.SkweebsThePanda

religion is collectivism. This is a thread about individualism.

Individualism is largely behind the periods of great advancement in human history (the enlightenment, for example), as well as the liberal democracies of the world. It's good to care for other people, but usually, in economic terms, working for your own personal benefit ends up helping other people in a big way. A society based on the individual is about individual merits and abilities. A society based on the collective is about needs and weaknesses. I'd also like to mention that racism and all forms of prejudice are solely collectivist phenomenon.fidosim

I disagree. Religion is collectivism. Organized movements are collectivism. Personal bigotry is solely the responsibility of the individual.

Also, jusdging by your logic, that means that murder and suicide are individualist occurences (which I happen to agree with :D)

We desire life as individuals. Not human herd animals -against human nature to be like every human else. The act of granting individualism is a way to lower stress in the herd. Individualism becomes the reward, while herd mentality is the status quo.

HOWEVER By desiring individualism, we become herd animals. We are also required with our sheer number on the earth to become social (herd animals). We talk and communicate better than real animals, so we are social. We think intelligently beyond animal instinct (hopefully)so we are also individual in this. If all humanity is required to think only as directed by herd mentality, then any new ideas for the herd have no success regardless if they will serve the herd better.

It is this duality of humans which makes us humans. We live on razor's edge between instinct as group, and choice as individual. Part of our evolution beyond whatever animal ancestor we came from.

Both individual and group are acceptable and necessary for the human species.

Anything could be evil when taken to the extreme. Sometimes individuality has to be set aside for the good of many - an army, for example. A battalion of individuals would lose a battle, whereas a cohesive unit stands a better chance of winning.

We desire life as individuals. Not human herd animals -against human nature to be like every human else. The act of granting individualism is a way to lower stress in the herd. Individualism becomes the reward, while herd mentality is the status quo.

HOWEVER By desiring individualism, we become herd animals. We are also required with our sheer number on the earth to become social (herd animals). We talk and communicate better than real animals, so we are social. We think intelligently beyond animal instinct (hopefully)so we are also individual in this. If all humanity is required to think only as directed by herd mentality, then any new ideas for the herd have no success regardless if they will serve the herd better.

It is this duality of humans which makes us humans. We live on razor's edge between instinct as group, and choice as individual. Part of our evolution beyond whatever animal ancestor we came from.

Both individual and group are acceptable and necessary for the human species.

matenmoe

Good point. Balance between individualism and collectivism is rarely considered as a viable political stance in the U.S.

[QUOTE="fidosim"]Individualism is largely behind the periods of great advancement in human history (the enlightenment, for example), as well as the liberal democracies of the world. It's good to care for other people, but usually, in economic terms, working for your own personal benefit ends up helping other people in a big way. A society based on the individual is about individual merits and abilities. A society based on the collective is about needs and weaknesses. I'd also like to mention that racism and all forms of prejudice are solely collectivist phenomenon.Hot-Tamale

I disagree. Religion is collectivism. Organized movements are collectivism. Personal bigotry is solely the responsibility of the individual.

Also, jusdging by your logic, that means that murder and suicide are individualist occurences (which I happen to agree with :D)

And, yes, murder and suicide are individualist occurences, but the worst crimes-crimes against entire masses of people-are collectivist by nature.

"Individualism is the moral stance, political philosophy, or social outlook that stresses independence and self-reliance. Individualists promote the exercise of one's goals and desires, while opposing most external interference upon one's choices"

all it is, is looking out for yourself, and not letting yourself become a sheep, or let people take advantage of you. its how you make something of yourself in life instead of being just one of the crowd. it also is about not depending on other people for help.

i see a lot of my own characteristics in this. and i dont see any evil in here.

666 is still the # of the beast.

Individualism in the Ayn Rand sense is a contradiction. There are people whose happiness involves taking advantage of other people. It leads to economic oppression from the private sector taking away the "freedom" that individualism strives for. It may not be the exact same freedoms she talks about, but it still hinder's people ability to strive for their own happiness.

I'm not saying trying to make yourself happy is bad, because it definitely isn't. People just need to make a sacrifice here and there to benefit society. (which in the long run should promote their interest)

Individualism in the Ayn Rand sense is a contradiction. There are people whose happiness involves taking advantage of other people. It leads to economic oppression from the private sector taking away the "freedom" that individualism strives for. It may not be the exact same freedoms she talks about, but it still hinder's people ability to strive for their own happiness.

I'm not saying trying to make yourself happy is bad, because it definitly isn't.

laughingman42

Well, to put this in an economic perspective, it's pretty common knowledge that the Libertarians and conservatives who are self-styled 'individualists,' and still support big business, aren't supporting the good of the majority of individuals, since what's good for the group (society) is often best for the individual (unless that individual is a filthy rich CEO).

[QUOTE="laughingman42"]

Individualism in the Ayn Rand sense is a contradiction. There are people whose happiness involves taking advantage of other people. It leads to economic oppression from the private sector taking away the "freedom" that individualism strives for. It may not be the exact same freedoms she talks about, but it still hinder's people ability to strive for their own happiness.

I'm not saying trying to make yourself happy is bad, because it definitly isn't.

Hot-Tamale

Well, to put this in an economic perspective, it's pretty common knowledge that the Libertarians and conservatives who are self-styled 'individualists,' and still support big business, aren't supporting the good of the majority of individuals, since what's good for the group (society) is often best for the individual (unless that individual is a filthy rich CEO).

That is why I think that is a contradiction.