[QUOTE="Tykain"][QUOTE="playmynutz"]I was gonna make a thread but hey theres already a god thread. Instead of talking to an ignorant. and no ignorant is not bliss get real. i have a bone to pick wit some of yall so called christians. you need to get your facts straight because your not helping the cause if you cant defend a simple question like does god exist. be realistic but have that confidence that what you believe in is for certain. god exist. nothing is truely random everything can be calculated. so life wasn't an accident point blank. we were precalculated to exist trillions of years ago. its the domino effect. something had to "knock" us to give us motion in the first place.HAZE-Unit
So as everything has to be created from something and everything is precalculated, what created god ? Or is god the exception ? then if there can be exceptions, why couldn't life itself be that exception ?1- It is an exception because that question could go to infinity and beyond, Lets say humans found the answer of who created god, lets say his name is master lol the creator then people would continue to ask who created master lol the creator and the cycle goes on and on because the question in the first place is wrong since the human being can not perceive or comprehend the thought of "god is first", it supposedly takes a new thought process, however, the fact of the matter is the type of that perception is already experienced but it needs refreshment to the mind.
when asking this exact question lets take this rule, if you don't know, it doesn't mean it never exists.
For instance, your eyes are closed, a person is screaming, you don't know who is that person but it doesn't mean that person does not exist and the proof is the loud noise "created" by that "unknown" person.
Another example, you are in the middle of the desert, you find a chair or a lost city, the city or/and chair's creators are unknown but these are signs of existence, you don't know who "built" the city but that doesn't mean the people never existed.
there is nothing spontaneous or questions that are hard to answer about my examples and Im pretty sure there is no disagreement there.
On that note, I will talk about the theory of chance/accident/spontaneous and how to bring that theory down on it's own rule, I hope people knows math though :P
The law of probability.
lets say you have a deck of cards on your hand numbered from 1 to 10, and someone asks you to pull card numbered 1, the chance of pulling card numbered 1 is 1 chance in a 10 right? lets add number 2 , that makes it 1 chance in 100, how about picking up number 3? 1 in a 1000 and so on until it gets to a point of 0 chance of happening.
Let me make it easier, hypothetically there are old writing machines in a print house and the old machines exploded, as a result random letters are scattered all over the floor of the building from the writing machines.
you are the manager of that building and you are watching the people cleaning the floor, suddenly one of the workers stare at you and tell you to look at how amazingly the word "dog" was created from the explosion, impressive right? believable, it could happen right?
I could believe that.
The same guy comes to you and say, boss I found out from the random letters on one corner of the building this amazing story.
"Alex ate at Mcdonald's, went to the toilet and after a while cameback home to sleep with his lovely wife Rita"
Can you believe that sir? Hard to believe but lets assume that also happened.
Then the guy comes to you and say wow it didn't stop there, I found on the side of the room A Tale Of Two Cities by Charles Dickens have been created randomly on the floor and not only that, the whole encyclopedia of the world is written too.
me : 911!! we have a crazy person in the building!!
you ask why I react like this because the chance of something like that happening is out of the question if you return to the law of probability, to say the encyclopedia of the earth is written from random letters that exploded is impossible.
this way the proof is in infront of you, if you believe that something that is called a big bang that happened and it is the whole reason behind life on earth, I will ask a question, the chance of that actually happening is how much?? 1 in a trillion?
2- As for your other question, yes life is not an exception specially when we are talking about the human body, there are countless of scientific proved facts about how the human body works or how it is impossible to create a protein cell from randomness for example.
Let's hear from Swiss mathematician Charles Eugene Jai. In an experiment aimed at answering this very question, Jai set out to calculate the probability of the random formation of a single protein molecule. Jai 'helped' the situation by assuming the existence of formative elements, and by selecting a protein consisting of only 2,000 atoms (An average protein might consist of 32,000 atoms or more). Jai also assumed that the protein would consist of only 2 unique formative atoms.
He determined the value of probability by considering the size of the material and the time necessary for the random formation to occur. He calculated that the probability of forming even a simplified protein molecule was approximately 1 in 5 x 10 e+320 !
The size of the material necessary to produce that almost zero probability would have been a sphere with a diameter of approximately 6 x 10 e+176 miles - about 10 e+63 times bigger than the imagined size of the universe. Finally, the time necessary for the molecule to form was 10 e+243 billion years. This was far greater than the supposed age of the universe - only about 2 billion years.
He concluded that the universe was neither old enough, nor big enough to allow for the random formation of even a simple protein molecule. It was impossible for the universe to have created itself, and for life to randomly form.
That doesn't really make any sense (the bits about probability anyway.)
If you have a hand of cards numbered one through ten, and are asked to draw one or more specific cards, even if you are asked to draw them in sequence, your chance of doing so is never 0%. There is always a chance that the suit will be drawn in order.
The other thing you should consider is that the chance of drawing a full suit in sequence is the exact same as drawing any other sequence of ten cards. (one in whatever the total number of possible combinations is) The full suit is only significant to you because we have decided that the particular order of cards is important.
The problem with your cosmological analogy is as follows:
1. We have only observed one possible outcome of, for lack of a better term, the existence of totality.
The only reason our universe is significant to us is because it is OURS. Imagine if some force or physical law was changed such that life was not able to exist in this universe, then there would be no one to ponder the numbers and no significance would be ascribed to that universe.
Let's imagine for a moment that trillions of universes exist, each with different physical laws. The chances of the laws in a specific universe being conducive to OUR type of life is remote, but, if the number of universes is sufficiently large, it is not zero. In that strata of universes, we might find another with physical laws different than our own. In this universe, our lifeforms could not exist, but a different kind could. The likelihood of our universe existing is the exact same as theirs. Certainly those creatures would marvel at the odds of their universe having come into being. But the likelihood of any specific universe existing is the same. Its only significance is what is ascribed to it by us. Of course, all of this assumes that existence is based solely on probability.
2. There is no reason to assume probability is the only force acting on the universe.
We do not know enough about the basic forces of the universe to state that they exist only because of chance. Currently, there is no basis to make that assumption. It is just as likely that there is some selective pressure acting on universal formation. Concerning the more regional influences on life we observe the action of selective pressures. Your anecdote about the Swiss mathematician* is irrelevant because protein molecules where not formed by chance alone. Selective pressures acted upon preexisting (and relatively simple) compounds to make more complex compounds which were again selected for or against to make even more complex compounds until a protein sequence is formed.
Going back to your card analogy, let's say instead of drawing ten cards at random, we draw one card and, based on the outcome of that card, decide whether or not to keep or discard it.
On the first draw we have a one in ten chance of getting the right card. If we draw the card and find a one (the card we want) we keep it, anything else we throw back. After doing this for a while, eventually we would get a "one." Since we are retaining the one, the next draw holds a greater chance of selecting the right card (a one in nine chance.) Keeping the "one" makes it easier to find the "two" if we find the "two," we get to keep it as well, which in turn makes it easier to find the next card, so on and so fourth. Obviously this is not random chance. We are selecting for certain cards and against others. This process better describes the formation of proteins than simple chance.
* I decided to look up this guy, He does not seem to exist except inside the lore of religious apologetics. Given the incredibly stupid conclusion he drew, I suspect he was made up by some religious person in order to further their cause.
Log in to comment