"If they're gonna support us, support us all the way."

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KobukSohn

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#1 KobukSohn
Member since 2004 • 3184 Posts

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2203f11597

Thoughts?

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comp_atkins

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#2 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 38924 Posts
so a president could put troops anywhere, giving them a "mission" and the us populace just has to support it 100% ? like that last guy in the vid said. you could end up dying for nothing. this is true.. its not a comforting thought but its reality.
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KobukSohn

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#3 KobukSohn
Member since 2004 • 3184 Posts
They irony of "We're against what you're getting killed for, but we support you anyway"...
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-911-

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#4 -911-
Member since 2006 • 6177 Posts
If we were to pull back, we would might as well let the Taliban take over, the first soldier in the vid was pretty much right about the whole thing.
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SymphonicWaves

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#5 SymphonicWaves
Member since 2006 • 832 Posts
They irony of "We're against what you're getting killed for, but we support you anyway"...KobukSohn
Yep. I don't support what they are doing, but that doesn't mean I hate the troops or want them to get killed. But I can't get behind what they are doing either.
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KobukSohn

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#6 KobukSohn
Member since 2004 • 3184 Posts

[QUOTE="KobukSohn"]They irony of "We're against what you're getting killed for, but we support you anyway"...SymphonicWaves
Yep. I don't support what they are doing, but that doesn't mean I hate the troops or want them to get killed. But I can't get behind what they are doing either.

If you don't support the cause their fighting for, what's the point in supporting the soldiers themselves?

If you're opposed to the cause, wouldn't you logically be opposed to those fighting for that cause?

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194197844077667059316682358889

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#7 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts

[QUOTE="SymphonicWaves"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]They irony of "We're against what you're getting killed for, but we support you anyway"...KobukSohn

Yep. I don't support what they are doing, but that doesn't mean I hate the troops or want them to get killed. But I can't get behind what they are doing either.

If you don't support the cause their fighting for, what's the point in supporting the soldiers themselves?

If you're opposed to the cause, wouldn't you logically be opposed to those fighting for that cause?

No, not at all; I can't even fathom how you conflate the two. An expression of support for the troops to me would be getting them out of harm's way and out of an area where they have an ill-defined mission for which they are poorly suited.
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KobukSohn

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#8 KobukSohn
Member since 2004 • 3184 Posts
[QUOTE="KobukSohn"]

[QUOTE="SymphonicWaves"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]They irony of "We're against what you're getting killed for, but we support you anyway"...xaos

Yep. I don't support what they are doing, but that doesn't mean I hate the troops or want them to get killed. But I can't get behind what they are doing either.

If you don't support the cause their fighting for, what's the point in supporting the soldiers themselves?

If you're opposed to the cause, wouldn't you logically be opposed to those fighting for that cause?

No, not at all; I can't even fathom how you conflate the two. An expression of support for the troops to me would be getting them out of harm's way and out of an area where they have an ill-defined mission for which they are poorly suited.

Then you don't support raising money to properly equip our troops in battle?

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xXBuffJeffXx

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#9 xXBuffJeffXx
Member since 2006 • 5913 Posts

[QUOTE="SymphonicWaves"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]They irony of "We're against what you're getting killed for, but we support you anyway"...KobukSohn

Yep. I don't support what they are doing, but that doesn't mean I hate the troops or want them to get killed. But I can't get behind what they are doing either.

If you don't support the cause their fighting for, what's the point in supporting the soldiers themselves?

If you're opposed to the cause, wouldn't you logically be opposed to those fighting for that cause?



No. The soldiers didn't devise the foreign policy debacle that got them into this mess. If anything, the president has abused one of his most sacred responsibilities to use the American military wisely.
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comp_atkins

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#10 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 38924 Posts

[QUOTE="SymphonicWaves"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]They irony of "We're against what you're getting killed for, but we support you anyway"...KobukSohn

Yep. I don't support what they are doing, but that doesn't mean I hate the troops or want them to get killed. But I can't get behind what they are doing either.

If you don't support the cause their fighting for, what's the point in supporting the soldiers themselves?

If you're opposed to the cause, wouldn't you logically be opposed to those fighting for that cause?

so if there cause was to kill all iraqi... we have to blindly so "YAY! i support teh troops!, kill all iraqi!"... thats ridiculous. look. soldiers are going to get killed... thats the reality of war.. so answer this. is it better to have 3000 americans die for a lost cause, or 9000 americans die because we have to support the cause, not just the troops and keep americans there for another 10 years?

support means more than just waving a flag and having a yellow magnet on your car. it means being disguisted at the fact that so many have already died for reasons that 90% of the country would deem stupid...  and wanting to do something about it

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194197844077667059316682358889

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#11 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts
[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]

[QUOTE="SymphonicWaves"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]They irony of "We're against what you're getting killed for, but we support you anyway"...KobukSohn

Yep. I don't support what they are doing, but that doesn't mean I hate the troops or want them to get killed. But I can't get behind what they are doing either.

If you don't support the cause their fighting for, what's the point in supporting the soldiers themselves?

If you're opposed to the cause, wouldn't you logically be opposed to those fighting for that cause?

No, not at all; I can't even fathom how you conflate the two. An expression of support for the troops to me would be getting them out of harm's way and out of an area where they have an ill-defined mission for which they are poorly suited.

Then you don't support raising money to properly equip our troops in battle?

How did you possibly interpret my statement to mean that?
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xXBuffJeffXx

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#12 xXBuffJeffXx
Member since 2006 • 5913 Posts
[QUOTE="KobukSohn"]

[QUOTE="SymphonicWaves"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]They irony of "We're against what you're getting killed for, but we support you anyway"...comp_atkins

Yep. I don't support what they are doing, but that doesn't mean I hate the troops or want them to get killed. But I can't get behind what they are doing either.

If you don't support the cause their fighting for, what's the point in supporting the soldiers themselves?

If you're opposed to the cause, wouldn't you logically be opposed to those fighting for that cause?

so if there cause was to kill all iraqi... we have to blindly so "YAY! i support teh troops!, kill all iraqi!"... thats ridiculous. look. soldiers are going to get killed... thats the reality of war.. so answer this. is it better to have 3000 americans die for a lost cause, or 9000 americans die because we have to support the cause, not just the troops and keep americans there for another 10 years?



I agree. After the Tet Offensive during the Vietnam war it should have been clear that we couldn't win, but instead we "stayed the course." All I know is that if we would have read the writing on the wall that black monument in Washington D.C. would be a helluva lot shorter than it is today.
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KobukSohn

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#13 KobukSohn
Member since 2004 • 3184 Posts
[QUOTE="KobukSohn"]

[QUOTE="SymphonicWaves"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]They irony of "We're against what you're getting killed for, but we support you anyway"...comp_atkins

Yep. I don't support what they are doing, but that doesn't mean I hate the troops or want them to get killed. But I can't get behind what they are doing either.

If you don't support the cause their fighting for, what's the point in supporting the soldiers themselves?

If you're opposed to the cause, wouldn't you logically be opposed to those fighting for that cause?

so if there cause was to kill all iraqi... we have to blindly so "YAY! i support teh troops!, kill all iraqi!"... thats ridiculous. look. soldiers are going to get killed... thats the reality of war.. so answer this. is it better to have 3000 americans die for a lost cause, or 9000 americans die because we have to support the cause, not just the troops and keep americans there for another 10 years?

Answer me this:

Is it better for America to lose some soldiers there in Iraq with full support from the boys back home, yet eventually win the conflict and stabilize the situation

Or

Would it be better to pull out of Iraq and leave behind a broken Iraq and a further destabilized Middle East with even more, better organized terrorist organizations that will strike back against the United States?

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KrayzieJ

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#14 KrayzieJ
Member since 2003 • 3283 Posts
I might actually support unwarranted invasion of foreign countries if i had an ounce of faith in my leader, but Bush blows it.
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KobukSohn

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#15 KobukSohn
Member since 2004 • 3184 Posts
[QUOTE="KobukSohn"][QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]

[QUOTE="SymphonicWaves"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]They irony of "We're against what you're getting killed for, but we support you anyway"...xaos

Yep. I don't support what they are doing, but that doesn't mean I hate the troops or want them to get killed. But I can't get behind what they are doing either.

If you don't support the cause their fighting for, what's the point in supporting the soldiers themselves?

If you're opposed to the cause, wouldn't you logically be opposed to those fighting for that cause?

No, not at all; I can't even fathom how you conflate the two. An expression of support for the troops to me would be getting them out of harm's way and out of an area where they have an ill-defined mission for which they are poorly suited.

Then you don't support raising money to properly equip our troops in battle?

How did you possibly interpret my statement to mean that?

What, don't have an answer?

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sped_ed

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#16 sped_ed
Member since 2006 • 217 Posts
I don't support the troops because I don't support the war.
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SymphonicWaves

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#17 SymphonicWaves
Member since 2006 • 832 Posts
[QUOTE="comp_atkins"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]

[QUOTE="SymphonicWaves"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]They irony of "We're against what you're getting killed for, but we support you anyway"...KobukSohn

Yep. I don't support what they are doing, but that doesn't mean I hate the troops or want them to get killed. But I can't get behind what they are doing either.

If you don't support the cause their fighting for, what's the point in supporting the soldiers themselves?

If you're opposed to the cause, wouldn't you logically be opposed to those fighting for that cause?

so if there cause was to kill all iraqi... we have to blindly so "YAY! i support teh troops!, kill all iraqi!"... thats ridiculous. look. soldiers are going to get killed... thats the reality of war.. so answer this. is it better to have 3000 americans die for a lost cause, or 9000 americans die because we have to support the cause, not just the troops and keep americans there for another 10 years?

Answer me this:

Is it better for America to lose some soldiers there in Iraq with full support from the boys back home, yet eventually win the conflict and stabilize the situation

Or

Would it be better to pull out of Iraq and leave behind a broken Iraq and a further destabilized Middle East with even more, better organized terrorist organizations that will strike back against the United States?

This what we get for getting involved in a 1500 year long relegious conflict with radicals.
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xXBuffJeffXx

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#18 xXBuffJeffXx
Member since 2006 • 5913 Posts
[QUOTE="comp_atkins"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]

[QUOTE="SymphonicWaves"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]They irony of "We're against what you're getting killed for, but we support you anyway"...KobukSohn

Yep. I don't support what they are doing, but that doesn't mean I hate the troops or want them to get killed. But I can't get behind what they are doing either.

If you don't support the cause their fighting for, what's the point in supporting the soldiers themselves?

If you're opposed to the cause, wouldn't you logically be opposed to those fighting for that cause?

so if there cause was to kill all iraqi... we have to blindly so "YAY! i support teh troops!, kill all iraqi!"... thats ridiculous. look. soldiers are going to get killed... thats the reality of war.. so answer this. is it better to have 3000 americans die for a lost cause, or 9000 americans die because we have to support the cause, not just the troops and keep americans there for another 10 years?

Answer me this:

Is it better for America to lose some soldiers there in Iraq with full support from the boys back home, yet eventually win the conflict and stabilize the situation

Or

Would it be better to pull out of Iraq and leave behind a broken Iraq and a further destabilized Middle East with even more, better organized terrorist organizations that will strike back against the United States?



I don't think you understand the nature of counter-insurgent warfare and how far gone this cause is. We have already lost.
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KobukSohn

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#19 KobukSohn
Member since 2004 • 3184 Posts

I don't support the troops because I don't support the war.sped_ed

There we go, a man who actually has the stones to go out and say it.

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194197844077667059316682358889

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#20 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts
[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"][QUOTE="xaos"]No, not at all; I can't even fathom how you conflate the two. An expression of support for the troops to me would be getting them out of harm's way and out of an area where they have an ill-defined mission for which they are poorly suited.KobukSohn
Then you don't support raising money to properly equip our troops in battle?

How did you possibly interpret my statement to mean that?

What, don't have an answer?

I support pulling our troops out as soon as is practical and keeping them alive and well to whatever extent is possible in the meantime. Now, do you have an answer for the question I gave, since you asked one completely unrelated to what I said?
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KobukSohn

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#21 KobukSohn
Member since 2004 • 3184 Posts
[QUOTE="KobukSohn"][QUOTE="comp_atkins"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]

[QUOTE="SymphonicWaves"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]They irony of "We're against what you're getting killed for, but we support you anyway"...xXBuffJeffXx

Yep. I don't support what they are doing, but that doesn't mean I hate the troops or want them to get killed. But I can't get behind what they are doing either.

If you don't support the cause their fighting for, what's the point in supporting the soldiers themselves?

If you're opposed to the cause, wouldn't you logically be opposed to those fighting for that cause?

so if there cause was to kill all iraqi... we have to blindly so "YAY! i support teh troops!, kill all iraqi!"... thats ridiculous. look. soldiers are going to get killed... thats the reality of war.. so answer this. is it better to have 3000 americans die for a lost cause, or 9000 americans die because we have to support the cause, not just the troops and keep americans there for another 10 years?

Answer me this:

Is it better for America to lose some soldiers there in Iraq with full support from the boys back home, yet eventually win the conflict and stabilize the situation

Or

Would it be better to pull out of Iraq and leave behind a broken Iraq and a further destabilized Middle East with even more, better organized terrorist organizations that will strike back against the United States?



I don't think you understand the nature of counter-insurgent warfare and how far gone this cause is. We have already lost.

We can at least stabilize the situation by following the guidelines of the Baker-Hamilton Commission, yet for some reason our leaders refuse to follow them.

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KobukSohn

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#22 KobukSohn
Member since 2004 • 3184 Posts

[QUOTE="KobukSohn"][QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"][QUOTE="xaos"]No, not at all; I can't even fathom how you conflate the two. An expression of support for the troops to me would be getting them out of harm's way and out of an area where they have an ill-defined mission for which they are poorly suited.xaos
Then you don't support raising money to properly equip our troops in battle?

How did you possibly interpret my statement to mean that?

What, don't have an answer?

I support pulling our troops out as soon as is practical and keeping them alive and well to whatever extent is possible in the meantime. Now, do you have an answer for the question I gave, since you asked one completely unrelated to what I said?

You still haven't properly answered my question, dancing around it instead,

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194197844077667059316682358889

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#23 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts
You still haven't properly answered my question, dancing around it instead,KobukSohn
I answered the question you asked; while I support an immediate pullout, I feel that the troops should be equipped sufficiently to be able to perform their mission in a way that ensures minimal possible casualties until that happens. If that does not answer your question, then you need to restart it more clearly.
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comp_atkins

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#24 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 38924 Posts
[QUOTE="comp_atkins"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]

[QUOTE="SymphonicWaves"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]They irony of "We're against what you're getting killed for, but we support you anyway"...KobukSohn

Yep. I don't support what they are doing, but that doesn't mean I hate the troops or want them to get killed. But I can't get behind what they are doing either.

If you don't support the cause their fighting for, what's the point in supporting the soldiers themselves?

If you're opposed to the cause, wouldn't you logically be opposed to those fighting for that cause?

so if there cause was to kill all iraqi... we have to blindly so "YAY! i support teh troops!, kill all iraqi!"... thats ridiculous. look. soldiers are going to get killed... thats the reality of war.. so answer this. is it better to have 3000 americans die for a lost cause, or 9000 americans die because we have to support the cause, not just the troops and keep americans there for another 10 years?

Answer me this:

Is it better for America to lose some soldiers there in Iraq with full support from the boys back home, yet eventually win the conflict and stabilize the situation

Or

Would it be better to pull out of Iraq and leave behind a broken Iraq and a further destabilized Middle East with even more, better organized terrorist organizations that will strike back against the United States?

actually.. i'm of the tack that at this point.. we're in a s---hole for a long time. the us went in and took a dump on that country and unfortunately now it has the job of fixing it.. and the sad fact is if the military is there for 10 years, thousands more will die. though keep in mind that it is not ensured that if we just stick with it long enough peace and stability will follow. it could be a mess there for 10 years, 50 years.. who knows.. you going to keep an occupying force in a hostile country for 3 decades???  be real. it will not happen.    this country needs to start being able to admit it made mistakes and correct them.
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xXBuffJeffXx

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#25 xXBuffJeffXx
Member since 2006 • 5913 Posts
[QUOTE="KobukSohn"][QUOTE="comp_atkins"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]

[QUOTE="SymphonicWaves"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]They irony of "We're against what you're getting killed for, but we support you anyway"...comp_atkins

Yep. I don't support what they are doing, but that doesn't mean I hate the troops or want them to get killed. But I can't get behind what they are doing either.

If you don't support the cause their fighting for, what's the point in supporting the soldiers themselves?

If you're opposed to the cause, wouldn't you logically be opposed to those fighting for that cause?

so if there cause was to kill all iraqi... we have to blindly so "YAY! i support teh troops!, kill all iraqi!"... thats ridiculous. look. soldiers are going to get killed... thats the reality of war.. so answer this. is it better to have 3000 americans die for a lost cause, or 9000 americans die because we have to support the cause, not just the troops and keep americans there for another 10 years?

Answer me this:

Is it better for America to lose some soldiers there in Iraq with full support from the boys back home, yet eventually win the conflict and stabilize the situation

Or

Would it be better to pull out of Iraq and leave behind a broken Iraq and a further destabilized Middle East with even more, better organized terrorist organizations that will strike back against the United States?

actually.. i'm of the tack that at this point.. we're in a s---hole for a long time. the us went in and took a dump on that country and unfortunately now it has the job of fixing it.. and the sad fact is if the military is there for 10 years, thousands more will die. though keep in mind that it is not ensured that if we just stick with it long enough peace and stability will follow. it could be a mess there for 10 years, 50 years.. who knows.. you going to keep an occupying force in a hostile country for 3 decades???



Yeah, as soon as I graduate college and go through Officer's Basic Course I'll probably be leading a platoon in Iraq. I don't see us leaving anytime soon. Even if we began withdrawing today it would take years to complete a phased withdrawal.
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KobukSohn

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#26 KobukSohn
Member since 2004 • 3184 Posts
[QUOTE="KobukSohn"][QUOTE="comp_atkins"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]

[QUOTE="SymphonicWaves"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]They irony of "We're against what you're getting killed for, but we support you anyway"...comp_atkins

Yep. I don't support what they are doing, but that doesn't mean I hate the troops or want them to get killed. But I can't get behind what they are doing either.

If you don't support the cause their fighting for, what's the point in supporting the soldiers themselves?

If you're opposed to the cause, wouldn't you logically be opposed to those fighting for that cause?

so if there cause was to kill all iraqi... we have to blindly so "YAY! i support teh troops!, kill all iraqi!"... thats ridiculous. look. soldiers are going to get killed... thats the reality of war.. so answer this. is it better to have 3000 americans die for a lost cause, or 9000 americans die because we have to support the cause, not just the troops and keep americans there for another 10 years?

Answer me this:

Is it better for America to lose some soldiers there in Iraq with full support from the boys back home, yet eventually win the conflict and stabilize the situation

Or

Would it be better to pull out of Iraq and leave behind a broken Iraq and a further destabilized Middle East with even more, better organized terrorist organizations that will strike back against the United States?

actually.. i'm of the tack that at this point.. we're in a s---hole for a long time. the us went in and took a dump on that country and unfortunately now it has the job of fixing it.. and the sad fact is if the military is there for 10 years, thousands more will die. though keep in mind that it is not ensured that if we just stick with it long enough peace and stability will follow. it could be a mess there for 10 years, 50 years.. who knows.. you going to keep an occupying force in a hostile country for 3 decades???  be real. it will not happen.    this country needs to start being able to admit it made mistakes and correct them.

If you want to see my stance on how to solve things, just read the Baker-Hamilton Report.

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KobukSohn

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#27 KobukSohn
Member since 2004 • 3184 Posts

[QUOTE="KobukSohn"]You still haven't properly answered my question, dancing around it instead,xaos
I answered the question you asked; while I support an immediate pullout, I feel that the troops should be equipped sufficiently to be able to perform their mission in a way that ensures minimal possible casualties until that happens. If that does not answer your question, then you need to restart it more clearly.

You can't support equipping our troops with weapons which will aid them in carrying out their mission, and not support the cause.

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194197844077667059316682358889

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#28 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts

[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]You still haven't properly answered my question, dancing around it instead,KobukSohn

I answered the question you asked; while I support an immediate pullout, I feel that the troops should be equipped sufficiently to be able to perform their mission in a way that ensures minimal possible casualties until that happens. If that does not answer your question, then you need to restart it more clearly.

You can't support equipping our troops with weapons which will aid them in carrying out their mission, and not support the cause.

Actually, I can and do. You appear to be mistaken. I'm sorry if my position doesn't fit into your worldview, but it's the one I hold.
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KobukSohn

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#29 KobukSohn
Member since 2004 • 3184 Posts
[QUOTE="KobukSohn"]

[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]You still haven't properly answered my question, dancing around it instead,xaos

I answered the question you asked; while I support an immediate pullout, I feel that the troops should be equipped sufficiently to be able to perform their mission in a way that ensures minimal possible casualties until that happens. If that does not answer your question, then you need to restart it more clearly.

You can't support equipping our troops with weapons which will aid them in carrying out their mission, and not support the cause.

Actually, I can and do. You appear to be mistaken. I'm sorry if my position doesn't fit into your worldview, but it's the one I hold.

I'm just spreading the message of the boys who are actually serving in Iraq.

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comp_atkins

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#30 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 38924 Posts

[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]You still haven't properly answered my question, dancing around it instead,KobukSohn

I answered the question you asked; while I support an immediate pullout, I feel that the troops should be equipped sufficiently to be able to perform their mission in a way that ensures minimal possible casualties until that happens. If that does not answer your question, then you need to restart it more clearly.

You can't support equipping our troops with weapons which will aid them in carrying out their mission, and not support the cause.

of course you can. just because you dont support the fact that they are there for retarded reasons does not mean you want them out there with water guns and paper armor.
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194197844077667059316682358889

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#31 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts
[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]

[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]You still haven't properly answered my question, dancing around it instead,KobukSohn

I answered the question you asked; while I support an immediate pullout, I feel that the troops should be equipped sufficiently to be able to perform their mission in a way that ensures minimal possible casualties until that happens. If that does not answer your question, then you need to restart it more clearly.

You can't support equipping our troops with weapons which will aid them in carrying out their mission, and not support the cause.

Actually, I can and do. You appear to be mistaken. I'm sorry if my position doesn't fit into your worldview, but it's the one I hold.

I'm just spreading the message of the boys who are actually serving in Iraq.

Please pass along my hopes for a safe and swift return home to all those men and women.
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KobukSohn

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#32 KobukSohn
Member since 2004 • 3184 Posts
[QUOTE="KobukSohn"][QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]

[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="KobukSohn"]You still haven't properly answered my question, dancing around it instead,xaos

I answered the question you asked; while I support an immediate pullout, I feel that the troops should be equipped sufficiently to be able to perform their mission in a way that ensures minimal possible casualties until that happens. If that does not answer your question, then you need to restart it more clearly.

You can't support equipping our troops with weapons which will aid them in carrying out their mission, and not support the cause.

Actually, I can and do. You appear to be mistaken. I'm sorry if my position doesn't fit into your worldview, but it's the one I hold.

I'm just spreading the message of the boys who are actually serving in Iraq.

Please pass along my hopes for a safe and swift return home to all those men and women.


I will, to my cousin.

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DJ-PRIME90

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#33 DJ-PRIME90
Member since 2004 • 11292 Posts
I don't support the troops:roll: