"Rise of the Planet of the Apes" ending...? (MAJOR SPOILERS!!)

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fred1712

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#1 fred1712
Member since 2005 • 1220 Posts

So at the end of the rise of the planet of the apes, Caesar climbs up the tree, and looks toward the city. *Credits play* Me: OK, kind of a lame ending. 5 seconds after the credits start, there's another scene. The annoying neighbour, appears to be going off to the army/navy. His nose bleeds, and it is implied that he has caught the 'disease'. Then it pans over to the list of flights. It zooms in on New York....wait a minute...New York? Does this mean that we are going to get another remake? Do you think that the creators could be hinting towards a sequel/remake? Actually, I would not be surprised. And by the way, was it just me, or does it seem like the final third or so of the movie was one big fight scene? (not that there's anything wrong with that).

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#2 Jacobistheman
Member since 2007 • 3975 Posts

So at the end of the rise of the planet of the apes, Caesar climbs up the tree, and looks toward the city. *Credits play* Me: OK, kind of a lame ending. 5 seconds after the credits start, there's another scene. The annoying neighbour, appears to be going off to the army/navy. His nose bleeds, and it is implied that he has caught the 'disease'. Then it pans over to the list of flights. It zooms in on New York....wait a minute...New York? Does this mean that we are going to get another remake? Do you think that the creators could be hinting towards a sequel/remake? Actually, I would not be surprised. And by the way, was it just me, or does it seem like the final third or so of the movie was one big fight scene? (not that there's anything wrong with that).

fred1712
Of course they are going to do another remake. I really enjoyed the movie. I wasn't expecting much walking in, but they did it really well.
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iloverikku11

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#3 iloverikku11
Member since 2005 • 11039 Posts

if it makes enough money, there will definitely be a sequel :)

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#4 RHCPlusXbox
Member since 2009 • 385 Posts
My thoughts: Yeah they'll probably make a sequel. But, so you remember when in the news/newspaper in the movie they said they sent men to Mars? If you remember the old Planet of the Apes, astronauts land on Earth, though they think it's a different planet because no humans. And the part at the end of the credits hinted that a deadly plague was spreading, which will eventually wipe out the human race, making it a Planet of the Apes. So i think the new movie will be the astronauts returning like the old one.
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#5 fred1712
Member since 2005 • 1220 Posts
[QUOTE="RHCPlusXbox"]My thoughts: Yeah they'll probably make a sequel. But, so you remember when in the news/newspaper in the movie they said they sent men to Mars? If you remember the old Planet of the Apes, astronauts land on Earth, though they think it's a different planet because no humans. And the part at the end of the credits hinted that a deadly plague was spreading, which will eventually wipe out the human race, making it a Planet of the Apes. So i think the new movie will be the astronauts returning like the old one.

Ah, good point. And I think at one point in the movie I remember hearing something like the mars mission failed? I don't quite remember...
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#6 Hatiko
Member since 2006 • 4669 Posts

[QUOTE="RHCPlusXbox"]My thoughts: Yeah they'll probably make a sequel. But, so you remember when in the news/newspaper in the movie they said they sent men to Mars? If you remember the old Planet of the Apes, astronauts land on Earth, though they think it's a different planet because no humans. And the part at the end of the credits hinted that a deadly plague was spreading, which will eventually wipe out the human race, making it a Planet of the Apes. So i think the new movie will be the astronauts returning like the old one.fred1712
Ah, good point. And I think at one point in the movie I remember hearing something like the mars mission failed? I don't quite remember...

The TV news said something about a ship called "Icarus" being launched. And then later there was a newspaper that said "Lost in space?" And the credits showed the plague spreading. If you looked while the names were being shown it showed a yellow line going fromplace to place across continentsand then branching off into more lines signifying the spread of the disease. Dumb fat guy. How did his mask even come off?

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coasterguy65

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#7 coasterguy65
Member since 2005 • 7133 Posts

My thoughts: Yeah they'll probably make a sequel. But, so you remember when in the news/newspaper in the movie they said they sent men to Mars? If you remember the old Planet of the Apes, astronauts land on Earth, though they think it's a different planet because no humans. And the part at the end of the credits hinted that a deadly plague was spreading, which will eventually wipe out the human race, making it a Planet of the Apes. So i think the new movie will be the astronauts returning like the old one.RHCPlusXbox

Don't forget one of the most important moments of the original movie. When Heston rounds the corner and sees the Statue of Liberty buried in the sand. It's obviously New York, but in the future. You can't get much more of a tie in to New York than that.

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#8 Hatiko
Member since 2006 • 4669 Posts

[QUOTE="RHCPlusXbox"]My thoughts: Yeah they'll probably make a sequel. But, so you remember when in the news/newspaper in the movie they said they sent men to Mars? If you remember the old Planet of the Apes, astronauts land on Earth, though they think it's a different planet because no humans. And the part at the end of the credits hinted that a deadly plague was spreading, which will eventually wipe out the human race, making it a Planet of the Apes. So i think the new movie will be the astronauts returning like the old one.coasterguy65

Don't forget one of the most important moments of the original movie. When Heston rounds the corner and sees the Statue of Liberty buried in the sand. It's obviously New York, but in the future. You can't get much more of a tie in to New York than that.

I thought they blew up the statue of liberty. Doesn't Heston say "You idiots! You blew it up"

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campzor

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#9 campzor
Member since 2004 • 34932 Posts
didnt it zoom into most of the places around the world? And ye..what i was thinking of credits scene is that the neighbour got into the cab (which is now infected meaning anyone else going in the cab would now get infected and being a cab i would think that would be a lot and the chain continues) same with the airport (as shown with the graphics)
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#10 Hatiko
Member since 2006 • 4669 Posts

didnt it zoom into most of the places around the world? And ye..what i was thinking of credits scene is that the neighbour got into the cab (which is now infected meaning anyone else going in the cab would now get infected and being a cab i would think that would be a lot and the chain continues) same with the airport (as shown with the graphics)campzor

Well he would have to sneeze on them. That's how the neighbor got infected in the first place.

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LostProphetFLCL

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#11 LostProphetFLCL
Member since 2006 • 18526 Posts

[QUOTE="fred1712"][QUOTE="RHCPlusXbox"]Dumb fat guy. How did his mask even come off?

Hatiko

[spoiler] When they went to do that 113 experiment and that chimp flipped out he got smacked in the face and it knocked his face equipment off. [/spoiler]

Anyways, I missed this extra ending part, but that is really interesting.

This movie was definitely great! I am not a fan of the series, but this movie was really cool and I know enough about the series to also know that this one did a fantastic job at setting up the story for the next movies.

Funny because my date heard someone complaining that they didn't set up the thing with the astronauts, yet they totally did! :P

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#12 jacobwethington
Member since 2011 • 25 Posts
ok my brother, cousin, and I thought there is going to be another movie. When the man at the end starts coughing blood he is going to give it to the rest of the world (of course). but most people didnt catch this part in the movie!!! when the kids are throwing the newspapers the front headlines says "lost in space" We think their talking about mark wahlberg in the last one. So in the next movie almost everyone dies from the disease but the apes live and takeover. Then at the end of that movie mark is going to land back on earth but when he lands at the lincoln memorial the apes are going to be there. so in the next movie after that mark is going to lead what is left of the humans against the apes who have taken over. thank you and tell me what you think
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#13 noxboxlive
Member since 2008 • 5856 Posts

[QUOTE="coasterguy65"]

[QUOTE="RHCPlusXbox"]My thoughts: Yeah they'll probably make a sequel. But, so you remember when in the news/newspaper in the movie they said they sent men to Mars? If you remember the old Planet of the Apes, astronauts land on Earth, though they think it's a different planet because no humans. And the part at the end of the credits hinted that a deadly plague was spreading, which will eventually wipe out the human race, making it a Planet of the Apes. So i think the new movie will be the astronauts returning like the old one.Hatiko

Don't forget one of the most important moments of the original movie. When Heston rounds the corner and sees the Statue of Liberty buried in the sand. It's obviously New York, but in the future. You can't get much more of a tie in to New York than that.

I thought they blew up the statue of liberty. Doesn't Heston say "You idiots! You blew it up"

In the first film it was hinted that the humans had a nuclear war, and 99.9% of humans died in it., the radiation caused the apes to mutate to what you see in the film

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#14 Hatiko
Member since 2006 • 4669 Posts

ok my brother, cousin, and I thought there is going to be another movie. When the man at the end starts coughing blood he is going to give it to the rest of the world (of course). but most people didnt catch this part in the movie!!! when the kids are throwing the newspapers the front headlines says "lost in space" We think their talking about mark wahlberg in the last one. So in the next movie almost everyone dies from the disease but the apes live and takeover. Then at the end of that movie mark is going to land back on earth but when he lands at the lincoln memorial the apes are going to be there. so in the next movie after that mark is going to lead what is left of the humans against the apes who have taken over. thank you and tell me what you think jacobwethington

This movie has no connection to the one with mark wahlberg. They were planning on doing a sequel to that but instead they decided to reboot and start over again.

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Pirate700

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#15 Pirate700
Member since 2008 • 46465 Posts

Are spoilertags really necessary? This a prequel.

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#16 Hatiko
Member since 2006 • 4669 Posts

[QUOTE="Hatiko"]

[QUOTE="coasterguy65"]

Don't forget one of the most important moments of the original movie. When Heston rounds the corner and sees the Statue of Liberty buried in the sand. It's obviously New York, but in the future. You can't get much more of a tie in to New York than that.

noxboxlive

I thought they blew up the statue of liberty. Doesn't Heston say "You idiots! You blew it up"

In the first film it was hinted that the humans had a nuclear war, and 99.9% of humans died in it., the radiation caused the apes to mutate to what you see in the film

Actually, the apes learned to talk and do things after being pets and then slaves. This is revealed in the third movie when sira and cornelius are being questioned on how they learned to speak and how the future became the way it was in the future earth where they escaped from. Also, it was confirmed in the second film that the humans had a war. The second film has mutated humans (that for some reason wore normal human masks) and they unexplicably have mind powers that allow them to also talk by thoughts. They also worship a working nuclear bomb that was left over from the war.In the fifth movie we see some of the remaining humans already being mutated by the radiation underground.

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#17 Pirate700
Member since 2008 • 46465 Posts

if it makes enough money, there will definitely be a sequel :)

iloverikku11

I can't tell if this is a joke or not but they already did. It's called the Planet of the Apes. :|

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KeitekeTokage

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#18 KeitekeTokage
Member since 2011 • 770 Posts

[QUOTE="campzor"]didnt it zoom into most of the places around the world? And ye..what i was thinking of credits scene is that the neighbour got into the cab (which is now infected meaning anyone else going in the cab would now get infected and being a cab i would think that would be a lot and the chain continues) same with the airport (as shown with the graphics)Hatiko

Well he would have to sneeze on them. That's how the neighbor got infected in the first place.

I'm not so sure that it actually has to be from sneezing. Coughing of course would also work, as well as the virus simply being airborne and able to transmit itself without either method.
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#19 KeitekeTokage
Member since 2011 • 770 Posts

[QUOTE="iloverikku11"]

if it makes enough money, there will definitely be a sequel :)

Pirate700

I can't tell if this is a joke or not but they already did. It's called the Planet of the Apes. :|

I don't know if this is what he meant, but I was thinking they could make a sort of "in between" movie. There's a lot of material here still (ie: humans dying of global disease as apes slowly rise to power) that can take place before the "start" of the original movie
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#20 thesolutionx
Member since 2011 • 25 Posts
As much as I enjoyed the movie. I think a sequel wouldn't do much good. What made the original so good was the audience thinking he's on some new planet only to find out at the very end that he's on Earth. The big twist is what is so iconic about Planet of the Apes series. Rise of the Planet of the Apes gave a great back story to that. With a sequel, you know what would happen, so there isn't much room for a surprise ending. There isn't much more to tell in the story. But I'm sure if they're considering a sequel, they've thought all this through.
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#21 Hexagon_777
Member since 2007 • 20348 Posts

[QUOTE="Hatiko"]

[QUOTE="coasterguy65"]

Don't forget one of the most important moments of the original movie. When Heston rounds the corner and sees the Statue of Liberty buried in the sand. It's obviously New York, but in the future. You can't get much more of a tie in to New York than that.

noxboxlive

I thought they blew up the statue of liberty. Doesn't Heston say "You idiots! You blew it up"

In the first film it was hinted that the humans had a nuclear war, and 99.9% of humans died in it., the radiation caused the apes to mutate to what you see in the film

Not the radiation, but evolution. The apes in the originals evolved over the span of at least six centuries.
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#22 Hexagon_777
Member since 2007 • 20348 Posts
So Contagion is going to be the sequel to Planet of the Apes, right? :D
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#23 trick_man01
Member since 2003 • 11441 Posts
It obviously sets up a sequel. And the way this movie is making money a sequel is inevitable. Of course whether the sequel takes place immediately after, or remakes the Charlton Heston version is up for grabs.
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#24 Hexagon_777
Member since 2007 • 20348 Posts
It obviously sets up a sequel. And the way this movie is making money a sequel is inevitable. Of course whether the sequel takes place immediately after, or remakes the Charlton Heston version is up for grabs.trick_man01
What way is that?
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#25 trick_man01
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[QUOTE="trick_man01"]It obviously sets up a sequel. And the way this movie is making money a sequel is inevitable. Of course whether the sequel takes place immediately after, or remakes the Charlton Heston version is up for grabs.Hexagon_777
What way is that?

By drawing ticket sales of course, lots of them to be the #1 movie on the planet.
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Hexagon_777

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#26 Hexagon_777
Member since 2007 • 20348 Posts
[QUOTE="Hexagon_777"][QUOTE="trick_man01"]It obviously sets up a sequel. And the way this movie is making money a sequel is inevitable. Of course whether the sequel takes place immediately after, or remakes the Charlton Heston version is up for grabs.trick_man01
What way is that?

By drawing ticket sales of course, lots of them to be the #1 movie on the planet.

Really? Bigger than Green Lantern, Captain America, Transformers 3, and so on? :o
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#27 Aquat1cF1sh
Member since 2006 • 11096 Posts
They'll probably make another movie... This movie was a "rebooting of the series", so... yeah.
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#28 trick_man01
Member since 2003 • 11441 Posts
Really? Bigger than Green Lantern, Captain America, Transformers 3, and so on? :oHexagon_777
:|You know they measure ticket sales on a week by week basis right. And last week it made $34.1 Million more domestically than it's closest competition. So yeah, it made more money than those movies.
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#29 Hexagon_777
Member since 2007 • 20348 Posts
[QUOTE="Hexagon_777"]Really? Bigger than Green Lantern, Captain America, Transformers 3, and so on? :otrick_man01
:|You know they measure ticket sales on a week by week basis right. And last week it made $34.1 Million more domestically than it's closest competition. So yeah, it made more money than those movies.

:|I see! Didn't it just come out compared to the competition, though?
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#30 Netherscourge
Member since 2003 • 16364 Posts

There appears to be a different continuity with this remake though.

1.The original Apes movies indicated an alternate reality. Heston flys into a "worm-hole" or whatever and winds up in another universe with an alternate timeline all of it's own. The Apes were ALWAYS the dominant and superior speicies and the Human were the inferiors.

2. The 2001 Tim Burton movie did the "worm-hole" thing too. It was an alternate reality. However, at the end of the movie, you learn that there may have been a past where Humans were the superior species. But it didn't explain what happened. And coinciding with the "worm-hole" theory it didn't make sense.

3. This new 2011 movie indicates that Apes take over the Planet due to Experimental Genetic alteration coinciding with a human viral outbreak. It was not a natural switchover. It was man-made. There was no indication of a time-warp or another dimension. It all happens through a chain-of-events through a consistent timeline. That's why I prefer this new version. It allows things to happen sequentially without a lame, mysterious parallel universe motif/JJAbrams Lost goofy thing.

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#31 trick_man01
Member since 2003 • 11441 Posts
There appears to be a different continuity with this remake though.
1.The original Apes movies indicated an alternate reality. Heston flys into a "worm-hole" or whatever and winds up in another universe with an alternate timeline all of it's own. The Apes were ALWAYS the dominant and superior speicies and the Human were the inferiors.Netherscourge
No, the wormhole took him to the future. It is explained during the film (and it's sequels) that humans ruined the planet and then apes rose.
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#33 redrogue70
Member since 2011 • 25 Posts
So Icarus takes off to go to Mars just as the uprising of the Apes begins and also just as the virus spreads....It is noted in the newspaper at the end that Icarus is "Lost in Space" so I can only assume at this point it is in the wormhole heading towards a future Earth ruled by Apes. Icarus coming back to earth could possibly be the "sequel" to RISE although I would like to see the next movie showing how they advance further and create a society before then, possibly with the next movie ending as Icarus comes back into the Earth orbit...Just my opinions though
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#34 mrmusicman247
Member since 2008 • 17601 Posts

There appears to be a different continuity with this remake though.

1.The original Apes movies indicated an alternate reality. Heston flys into a "worm-hole" or whatever and winds up in another universe with an alternate timeline all of it's own. The Apes were ALWAYS the dominant and superior speicies and the Human were the inferiors.

2. The 2001 Tim Burton movie did the "worm-hole" thing too. It was an alternate reality. However, at the end of the movie, you learn that there may have been a past where Humans were the superior species. But it didn't explain what happened. And coinciding with the "worm-hole" theory it didn't make sense.

3. This new 2011 movie indicates that Apes take over the Planet due to Experimental Genetic alteration coinciding with a human viral outbreak. It was not a natural switchover. It was man-made. There was no indication of a time-warp or another dimension. It all happens through a chain-of-events through a consistent timeline. That's why I prefer this new version. It allows things to happen sequentially without a lame, mysterious parallel universe motif/JJAbrams Lost goofy thing.

Netherscourge
I don't know about the original but in the 2001 version it was fairly obvious he was sent into the future.
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#35 Hexagon_777
Member since 2007 • 20348 Posts
I definitely wouldn't mind another Planet of the Apes movie if it is done like the newest one. Some of these reboots definitely aren't all that bad in my humble opinion. Where is the Star Trek sequel, though?
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#36 pygmahia5
Member since 2007 • 7428 Posts
i hope there is. everybody go and see it so i can see more of caesar!! what a great movie that was.
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#37 MetallicaKings
Member since 2004 • 4781 Posts
No, the last scene when the apes escaped the shelter was only 14 minutes of a 2 hour movie. (Watched it online and timed it)
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#38 MetallicaKings
Member since 2004 • 4781 Posts
[QUOTE="Netherscourge"]

There appears to be a different continuity with this remake though.

1.The original Apes movies indicated an alternate reality. Heston flys into a "worm-hole" or whatever and winds up in another universe with an alternate timeline all of it's own. The Apes were ALWAYS the dominant and superior speicies and the Human were the inferiors.

2. The 2001 Tim Burton movie did the "worm-hole" thing too. It was an alternate reality. However, at the end of the movie, you learn that there may have been a past where Humans were the superior species. But it didn't explain what happened. And coinciding with the "worm-hole" theory it didn't make sense.

3. This new 2011 movie indicates that Apes take over the Planet due to Experimental Genetic alteration coinciding with a human viral outbreak. It was not a natural switchover. It was man-made. There was no indication of a time-warp or another dimension. It all happens through a chain-of-events through a consistent timeline. That's why I prefer this new version. It allows things to happen sequentially without a lame, mysterious parallel universe motif/JJAbrams Lost goofy thing.

mrmusicman247
I don't know about the original but in the 2001 version it was fairly obvious he was sent into the future.

I do enjoy the new version. I like that Caeser never injected himself with the virus, but acquired it through his mother during pregnancy. Ergo, the apes that escaped, when they fornicate, their babies will be super smart also. Two things I didn't like though. I hated the "circus orangatang" and how he could sign wayyyy too well for a normal apes intelligence level. Only a few monkeys have been taught to sign, and they can barely make out things (refer to Kiki on youtube), let alone speak full on sentences. Secondly, when the apes escaped, they went to the zoo and free'd all the apes there. But why bother? They didn't have the Serum in their bodies. They were useless.
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#39 stupid4
Member since 2008 • 3695 Posts

[QUOTE="fred1712"]

So at the end of the rise of the planet of the apes, Caesar climbs up the tree, and looks toward the city. *Credits play* Me: OK, kind of a lame ending. 5 seconds after the credits start, there's another scene. The annoying neighbour, appears to be going off to the army/navy. His nose bleeds, and it is implied that he has caught the 'disease'. Then it pans over to the list of flights. It zooms in on New York....wait a minute...New York? Does this mean that we are going to get another remake? Do you think that the creators could be hinting towards a sequel/remake? Actually, I would not be surprised. And by the way, was it just me, or does it seem like the final third or so of the movie was one big fight scene? (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Jacobistheman

Of course they are going to do another remake. I really enjoyed the movie. I wasn't expecting much walking in, but they did it really well.

This

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Cornelius-Zira

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#40 Cornelius-Zira
Member since 2011 • 25 Posts
Mark Walburg and his spaceship having nothing to do with this movie. This movie is the prequel to the original 1960s-70s movies, and it sets it up perfectly. The astronauts lost in space return to earth a thousand or so years later to find the planet of the apes (they don't know its earth until they see that the new york and statue of liberty is waste deep in ruin). He realizes then what happened over the 1000+ years after this current movie ended.. Of course there will be sequels, and im hoping it will only fill in the cracks between "Caesar is Home" and the Astronauts returning from space. I'd disagree to the purists that say they shouldnt make a remake. Sure us old guys feel it would spoil it, but i was at the theater with my teenage son and they were all begging for 'what's next'. they don't have any interest in watching movies from the 1970s for that. but If you guys want a thrill, in the meantime, burn your 2001 copy of POTA and watch the 1968 version after you see this new movie. you will be impressed. Although i love them like a child, i would avoid the 4 sequels from the 1970s that followed the original, as they don't play well to todays culture.
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Cornelius-Zira

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#41 Cornelius-Zira
Member since 2011 • 25 Posts
The original 1968 movie doesnt at all assume they were always a dominant species. the worm hole is to earth in the year 3978 AD, which would take place 2000 years after the movie in theaters now. the discovery of the statue of liberty tells us that man was the dominant species and apes evolved, as explained in today's movie. And this movie hinted at the wormhole still in play with the launch of that mission to mars and the 'lost' spaceship, which fits into the plot of the 1968 version.
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mitu123

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#42 mitu123
Member since 2006 • 155290 Posts

if it makes enough money, there will definitely be a sequel :)

iloverikku11

I heard it was planned as a trilogy now.

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Hexagon_777

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#43 Hexagon_777
Member since 2007 • 20348 Posts
Although i love them like a child, i would avoid the 4 sequels from the 1970s that followed the original, as they don't play well to todays culture.Cornelius-Zira
How come?
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i5750at4Ghz

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#44 i5750at4Ghz
Member since 2010 • 5839 Posts

I thought the ending was pretty clear and conclusive. The humans will die out do to the virus being spread everywhere. Thats why the airport scene was so important. And the apes who can pass on the virus genetically will take over the world. Finally the people "lost in space" will return to a planet filled with smart apes who have a serious issue with humans. At least thats what I got from it.

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Yasz86

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#45 Yasz86
Member since 2011 • 25 Posts
[QUOTE="mrmusicman247"][QUOTE="Netherscourge"]

There appears to be a different continuity with this remake though.

1.The original Apes movies indicated an alternate reality. Heston flys into a "worm-hole" or whatever and winds up in another universe with an alternate timeline all of it's own. The Apes were ALWAYS the dominant and superior speicies and the Human were the inferiors.

2. The 2001 Tim Burton movie did the "worm-hole" thing too. It was an alternate reality. However, at the end of the movie, you learn that there may have been a past where Humans were the superior species. But it didn't explain what happened. And coinciding with the "worm-hole" theory it didn't make sense.

3. This new 2011 movie indicates that Apes take over the Planet due to Experimental Genetic alteration coinciding with a human viral outbreak. It was not a natural switchover. It was man-made. There was no indication of a time-warp or another dimension. It all happens through a chain-of-events through a consistent timeline. That's why I prefer this new version. It allows things to happen sequentially without a lame, mysterious parallel universe motif/JJAbrams Lost goofy thing.

MetallicaKings
I don't know about the original but in the 2001 version it was fairly obvious he was sent into the future.

I do enjoy the new version. I like that Caeser never injected himself with the virus, but acquired it through his mother during pregnancy. Ergo, the apes that escaped, when they fornicate, their babies will be super smart also. Two things I didn't like though. I hated the "circus orangatang" and how he could sign wayyyy too well for a normal apes intelligence level. Only a few monkeys have been taught to sign, and they can barely make out things (refer to Kiki on youtube), let alone speak full on sentences. Secondly, when the apes escaped, they went to the zoo and free'd all the apes there. But why bother? They didn't have the Serum in their bodies. They were useless.

But remember how Caesar delivered the virus to the apes, through aerosol form, and it probably spreads to other apes through the air, like the virus does with humans since it is a more aggressive strain. So it'll spread through human population and will kill them, and it will spread through the ape population, making them smarter and that is how they take over.