Racist Debate at Harvard

"Every time you put something into an email, please remember that someone you send it to may hit Forward. If your email makes the case for a biological reason for racial disparities in intelligence, someone might hit Forward and send it to Black Law Student Associations across the nation.

That's what happened to a Harvard 3L yesterday. We'll call this 3L CRIMSON DNA. According to our sources, DNA made some controversial comments about race at a dinner held by the school's Federalist Society. CORRECTION: This dinner was not an official Fed Soc dinner. [FN1]

After the dinner, DNA felt the need to send an email to a few friends clarifying those views."

Link to article

Should Universities such as Harvard be allowed to have these sort of debates on race and intelligence and how they correlate? Or is this sort of debate wrong and considered being racist instead?

Given the apparent mass outrage over this, I must admit that I was expecting much more inflammatory remarks than what the person actually said. I would rather hesitate to call the person racist purely on those grounds.

Whatever. Ths person has the right to do this, I don't care.

Conisder this. Even if African Americans are less intelligent statistically that says absolutely nothing about me as an individual. So it's an irrelevant and pointless argument, isn't it?

I think the debate should happen, personally I also think it's possible that African-Americans genetically have lower IQs, but I'm skeptical.

I always think that culture and enviroment play a big part too, it's been shown Asians have the highest IQs and Sub-Saharan Africans have the lowest, but why do Nigerian, Kenyan, Jamaican, Ethiopian immigrants come to the U.S. and outperform East and South Asian, European, and Latin American immigrants academically.

I think the debate should happen, personally I also think it's possible that African-Americans genetically have lower IQs, but I'm skeptical.

I always think that culture and enviroment play a big part too, it's been shown Asians have the highest IQs and Sub-Saharan Africans have the lowest, but why do Nigerian, Kenyan, Jamaican, Ethiopian immigrants come to the U.S. and outperform East and South Asian, European, and Latin American immigrants academically.

the_new_guy_92

This is irrelevant, because I am an individual, not a group. My intelligence is my own, not a group's. So this is completely pointless in terms of the individual. Just because blacks are statistically lower in intelligence doesn't mean that I am not very intelligent as an individual.

And what evidence is there that blacks are genetically inferior in terms of intelligence?

EDIT: I didn't read your entire post. The reason that I think that "black" immigrants do so well is that we haven't really grown up in the African American culture. Which shows of course what a huge role culture has in this all.

I personally expected it to be a lot worse.

I don't see what the big problem is here.:?

I personally expected it to be a lot worse.

I don't see what the big problem is here.:?

dreamdude

She said it is a possibility that African Americans are genetically inferior. That's why people are angry.

The premise is so odious as to disqualify the topic from debate, IMO.

[QUOTE="dreamdude"]

I personally expected it to be a lot worse.

I don't see what the big problem is here.:?

SgtKevali

She said it is a possibility that African Americans are genetically inferior. That's why people are angry.

Meh, people are so sensitive these days. She only claimed that there was a possibility, she didn't come out and plainly say blacks are genetically inferior. People should not be held from exploring curiosity because of political correctness and the fear of hurting peoples feeling.

Genetically inferior....from my observation Blacks tend to excell in almost every aspect of political, Athletic and Academic aspect of American life.

You cant have a good debate with that kind of baseless argument

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

[QUOTE="dreamdude"]

I personally expected it to be a lot worse.

I don't see what the big problem is here.:?

dreamdude

She said it is a possibility that African Americans are genetically inferior. That's why people are angry.

Meh, people are so sensitive these days. She only claimed that there was a possibility, she didn't come out and plainly say blacks are genetically inferior. People should not be held from exploring curiosity because of political correctness and the fear of hurting peoples feeling.

If you are going to say that there is such a possibility then you should at least present some form of evidence. Otherwise you are just speculating, which is extremely foolish under these crcumstances.

Genetically inferior....from my observation Blacks tend to excell in almost every aspect of political, Athletic and Academic aspect of American life.

You cant have a good debate with that kind of baseless argument

Zaibach

Genetically inferior....from my observation Blacks tend to excell in almost every aspect of political, Athletic and Academic aspect of American life.

You cant have a good debate with that kind of baseless argument

Zaibach

Academic? Black people graduate from college in smaller numbers. They perform worse on tests. They drop out of school at higher rates. It is a simple fact that they do not perform as well academically as others.

Obviously the question remains regarding why and what to do about it, but denying the very existence of this reality is not something one ought to do.

[QUOTE="dreamdude"]

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

She said it is a possibility that African Americans are genetically inferior. That's why people are angry.

SgtKevali

Meh, people are so sensitive these days. She only claimed that there was a possibility, she didn't come out and plainly say blacks are genetically inferior. People should not be held from exploring curiosity because of political correctness and the fear of hurting peoples feeling.

If you are going to say that there is such a possibility then you should at least present some form of evidence. Otherwise you are just speculating, which is extremely foolish under these crcumstances.

I dont think it was foolish so much as tasteless.Was it not a conversation for the private sphere? I think it would be foolish to say such things in the public without evidence, but this was not meant for the public in the first place. Its just some persons random thoughts.

[QUOTE="Zaibach"]

Genetically inferior....from my observation Blacks tend to excell in almost every aspect of political, Athletic and Academic aspect of American life.

You cant have a good debate with that kind of baseless argument

GabuEx

Academic? Black people graduate from college in smaller numbers. They perform worse on tests. They drop out of school at higher rates. It is a simple fact that they do not perform as well academically as others.

Obviously the question remains regarding why and what to do about it, but denying the very existence of this reality is not something one ought to do.

Yes but then the question comes in as to who is at fault for these statistics? Could it be the social standings in our society based on racial backgrounds? Could it be the difficulties most minorities face when living in a poor and difficult upbringing as a child? There is way to many factors to be set in and it would be ignorant to agree with the Harvard student and say it was due solely on genetics.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Academic? Black people graduate from college in smaller numbers. They perform worse on tests. They drop out of school at higher rates. It is a simple fact that they do not perform as well academically as others.

Obviously the question remains regarding why and what to do about it, but denying the very existence of this reality is not something one ought to do.

GTA3_Darkel

Yes but then the question comes in as to who is at fault for these statistics? Could it be the social standings in our society based on racial backgrounds? Could it be the difficulties most minorities face when living in a poor and difficult upbringing as a child? There is way to many factors to be set in and it would be ignorant to agree with the Harvard student and say it was due solely on genetics.

Yes, which is why I said that "the question remains regarding why".

However, I think one ought to note that this Harvard student did not say it was due to genetics, and to do so is to vastly overstate the extent to which her statements were racist. She said that she "(does) not rule out the possibility that African Americans are, on average, genetically predisposed to be less intelligent", noting that "some things are genetic", such as darker skin, but qualified this by saying that she "could also obviously be convinced that by controlling for the right variables, we would see that they are, in fact, as intelligent as white people under the same circumstances". She further says that she "also (doesn't) think that there are no cultural differences or that cultural differences are not likely the most important sources of disparate test scores" and that she "would just like some scientific data to disprove the genetic position". She finally concludes by saying that "it is bad science to disagree with a conclusion in your heart, and then try (unsuccessfully, so far at least) to find data that will confirm what you want to be true".

I really do not find much racist content at all in what she had to say, really. For the outcry it has inspired, it is surprisingly reserved and qualified.

People should have the right to debate issues without having to resort to personal insults.

I got into an argument once about an issue in our local area - a proposed Muslim school. My argument was "It's in a flood zone, there are only 200 Muslims in the LGA and this school is for over 1000, there would be massive traffic issues (they were planning to bus students in), and there were already other buildings proposed there and they failed, why should a Muslim school get preference?". He's response was "you just have Muslims and are a racist".

[QUOTE="Zaibach"]

Genetically inferior....from my observation Blacks tend to excell in almost every aspect of political, Athletic and Academic aspect of American life.

You cant have a good debate with that kind of baseless argument

GabuEx

Academic? Black people graduate from college in smaller numbers. They perform worse on tests. They drop out of school at higher rates. It is a simple fact that they do not perform as well academically as others.

Obviously the question remains regarding why and what to do about it, but denying the very existence of this reality is not something one ought to do.

This is sad, I see no problem with this sort of research and even if it does say that one race on average does this better than another race, it still basically doesn't tell us much about the individual. But people do like to whine these days...

I think black people excel in academics, because given thte social standing and the imaqge and aspirations that the govt ans media perpetuates (you can only be a rapper, thug/ athlete) I thikn thEy're doing alright down there in the US of A

Zaibach

Living up to very low expectations does not mean that one excels.

Lol, I was expecting some seriously racist remarks. People get outraged way too easily nowadays.

[QUOTE="Zaibach"]

I think black people excel in academics, because given thte social standing and the imaqge and aspirations that the govt ans media perpetuates (you can only be a rapper, thug/ athlete) I thikn thEy're doing alright down there in the US of A

GabuEx

Living up to very low expectations does not mean that one excels.

[QUOTE="Zaibach"]

Genetically inferior....from my observation Blacks tend to excell in almost every aspect of political, Athletic and Academic aspect of American life.

You cant have a good debate with that kind of baseless argument

the_new_guy_92

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="Zaibach"]

I think black people excel in academics, because given thte social standing and the imaqge and aspirations that the govt ans media perpetuates (you can only be a rapper, thug/ athlete) I thikn thEy're doing alright down there in the US of A

Zaibach

Living up to very low expectations does not mean that one excels.

EDIT: Regarding the privileged - My girlfriend graduated from Yale with honors (currently acquiring her masters) and she is an east-African immigrant (now American citizen). Grew up poor, but with a fervent will to learn and passion to support her and her family. She's told me so much about the ivy league school and systems. The majority of students are def. privileged (and coincidentally white), though she (amongst many others) has a contradicting background / upbringing.

She said it is a possibility that African Americans are genetically inferior. That's why people are angry.

SgtKevali

She made no conclusiopns. She just refused to rule out a possibility until scientific investigation clarified the matter. There is absolutely nothing wrong with refusing to rule out a possibility until evidence is analyzed scientifically.

"i don't understand what the problem is..."

"i don't see a problem with these sort of debates"

*walks in...*

can pretty much guess that just about everyone who wrote in this thread is caucasion..

*walks out...*

*not touching this topic with a 100ft pole*

The person who sent the article is a hypocrite, she says we should not try to prove things that we wish to be true but rather study and made a subjective conclusion. But then she states that blacks are inferior intelectually with no research or data to back it up.

The biggest problem is that reguardless of what race is smarter or even if there is any difference, it does not mean a thing. A person's potential cannot be meassured by tests that some people in the high circles of education(mostly white elitist) come up with. They forget about the human soul and will. Will alone can overcome any obstacle.

I know a Congo immigrant with 4 degrees. It has nothing to do with intelligence. Education is more about will and passion. This guy is trying to study more and more in order to go back to Congo and help improve his country. A very noble cause.

So why even bother with stupid tests to try and figure out who is more intelligent? Its does no good. And what good could come out of it anyway. Imagine if X race comes out to be inferior in intelligence it would just open up the door to more discrimination and self hating reguardless of weather the results are true or not.

A black proffesor I had told me once that a reason why so many blacks are out in the streets is that they do not believe in their ability to succeed. And that could be the biggest problem for any race. Once you believe you are inferior why even try.

It wouldnt suprise me, given all the statistics. I'm not a racist person by nature, but all the statistics out there, and the fact that everytime I turn on the news all I hear about is how some black males killed this or that, beat an old white man to death, or raped someone, I can't help but question their integrity and intelligence as a race. Wow. Maybe I am racist afterall o.O

Lol, I'm sorry but how is that Racist?

I read the E-mail sent out, Didn't seem very racist to me.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/opinion/09nisbett.html?pagewanted=2

It wouldnt suprise me, given all the statistics. I'm not a racist person by nature, but all the statistics out there, and the fact that everytime I turn on the news all I hear about is how some black males killed this or that, beat an old white man to death, or raped someone, I can't help but question their integrity and intelligence as a race. Wow. Maybe I am racist afterall o.O

Mephers

That was actually mentioned in the persons email. It was brought up how nonviolentblackwere viewed during the slave era and howthe fewuprising shook up the white population.

universities are allowed to debate anything they want to

Lol, I'm sorry but how is that Racist?

I read the E-mail sent out, Didn't seem very racist to me.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/opinion/09nisbett.html?pagewanted=2

Snipes_2

Title: 'All Brains Are the Same Color'

Closing: "This mutability is further evidence that the I.Q. difference has environmental, not genetic, causes. And it should encourage us, as a society, to see that all children receive ample opportunity to develop their minds."

---

This echoes some points in my previous posts.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="Zaibach"]

Genetically inferior....from my observation Blacks tend to excell in almost every aspect of political, Athletic and Academic aspect of American life.

You cant have a good debate with that kind of baseless argument

GTA3_Darkel

Academic? Black people graduate from college in smaller numbers. They perform worse on tests. They drop out of school at higher rates. It is a simple fact that they do not perform as well academically as others.

Obviously the question remains regarding why and what to do about it, but denying the very existence of this reality is not something one ought to do.

Yes but then the question comes in as to who is at fault for these statistics? Could it be the social standings in our society based on racial backgrounds? Could it be the difficulties most minorities face when living in a poor and difficult upbringing as a child? There is way to many factors to be set in and it would be ignorant to agree with the Harvard student and say it was due solely on genetics.

It's African American culture. African immigrants do very well in America even though they have far worse upbringings. I don't think it has anything to do with race or genetics.

It wouldnt suprise me, given all the statistics. I'm not a racist person by nature, but all the statistics out there, and the fact that everytime I turn on the news all I hear about is how some black males killed this or that, beat an old white man to death, or raped someone, I can't help but question their integrity and intelligence as a race. Wow. Maybe I am racist afterall o.O

Mephers