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ImmoDuck

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#1 ImmoDuck
Member since 2007 • 231 Posts

I know very little about the belief of reincarnation. I've just had an honest question on my mind: how does the population grow globally if it's just the same people in different bodies? Does it have something to do with animals and stuff being souls with bad karma or something? My knowledge of this belief is very brief.

Note: this isn't anti-religion or anything, I've just been wondering. I'm sure there's an answer for those that believe in reincarnation.

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-_Rain_-

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#2 -_Rain_-
Member since 2009 • 886 Posts

People can be reincarnated into animals, and vice versa.

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foxhound_fox

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#3 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

All beings on the samsaric existence cycle can be reborn into any of the realms of existence. Humans as worms. Worms as dogs. Fish as humans. Etectera.

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ImmoDuck

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#4 ImmoDuck
Member since 2007 • 231 Posts

I thought it was something along those lines. It would go along with the fact that as human population goes up, animal population goes down in a certain area, but there's still equilibrium in souls, or whatever term may be used. That's pretty interesting.

One other question: what's the belief for the creation of the universe in this subject? Or is it considered eternal?

I read one of the Dalai Lama's books on this before but it wasn't in depth.

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mindstorm

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#5 mindstorm
Member since 2003 • 15255 Posts

People can be reincarnated into animals, and vice versa.

-_Rain_-
If that is the case then what level of the "I'm blessed to be this" scale would humans be? If humans are at the top then does that mean we are "progressing" as a species. If it as lower than that, then are humans degrading as a species? I'm basing this idea off of the assumption that living a good life will mean the next life will be better. Also, would life not have had a beginning in the belief?
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Spicy-McHaggis

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#6 Spicy-McHaggis
Member since 2008 • 902 Posts
I'm Buddhist :) Hope you go through with your studies.
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foxhound_fox

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#7 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

The universe has always been and always will be.

In Mahayana Buddhist belief, it "may" end when the Bodhisattva's finally bring all beings to nirvana.

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ImmoDuck

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#8 ImmoDuck
Member since 2007 • 231 Posts

I'm Buddhist :) Hope you go through with your studies.Spicy-McHaggis

It's not serious or anything, the thought was just on my mind and I was sure there was an explanation for it from the Buddhist standpoint. :P

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ImmoDuck

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#9 ImmoDuck
Member since 2007 • 231 Posts

The universe has always been and always will be.

In Mahayana Buddhist belief, it "may" end when the Bodhisattva's finally bring all beings to nirvana.

foxhound_fox

Yeah, thought it was something like that. Thanks for quenching my curiosity.

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Holy_Xbox

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#10 Holy_Xbox
Member since 2008 • 489 Posts
Ask a rabbi about that (^_^)
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bsman00

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#11 bsman00
Member since 2008 • 6038 Posts
[QUOTE="ImmoDuck"]

I know very little about the belief of reincarnation. I've just had an honest question on my mind: how does the population grow globally if it's just the same people in different bodies? Does it have something to do with animals and stuff being souls with bad karma or something? My knowledge of this belief is very brief.

Note: this isn't anti-religion or anything, I've just been wondering. I'm sure there's an answer for those that believe in reincarnation.

any thing with life.... hey you could come back as a tree... but many people will tell you animals, and plants dont have souls....
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foxhound_fox

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#12 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

Yeah, thought it was something like that. Thanks for quenching my curiosity.ImmoDuck

If you ever have any questions regarding Buddhist or Hindu ideas, feel free to discuss them with me.

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foxhound_fox

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#13 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

any thing with life.... hey you could come back as a tree... but many people will tell you animals, and plants dont have souls.... bsman00

No, in both Hindu and Buddhist belief, plants do not have atman (souls).

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bsman00

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#14 bsman00
Member since 2008 • 6038 Posts

[QUOTE="bsman00"]any thing with life.... hey you could come back as a tree... but many people will tell you animals, and plants dont have souls.... foxhound_fox


No, in both Hindu and Buddhist belief, plants do not have atman (souls).

i wasn't referring to hindu or buddhist beliefs

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foxhound_fox

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#15 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

i wasn't referring to hindu or buddhist beliefsbsman00

What were you referring to? It would have been good if you were more specific and mentioned that you weren't referring to the most widely accepted views on the subject.

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ImmoDuck

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#16 ImmoDuck
Member since 2007 • 231 Posts

[QUOTE="ImmoDuck"]Yeah, thought it was something like that. Thanks for quenching my curiosity.foxhound_fox


If you ever have any questions regarding Buddhist or Hindu ideas, feel free to discuss them with me.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. By the way, what seperates Hinduism and Buddhism, generally?

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bsman00

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#17 bsman00
Member since 2008 • 6038 Posts

[QUOTE="bsman00"]i wasn't referring to hindu or buddhist beliefsfoxhound_fox


What were you referring to? It would have been good if you were more specific and mentioned that you weren't referring to the most widely accepted views on the subject.

I have never read anything on hindu or buddhist.....

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foxhound_fox

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#18 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. By the way, what seperates Hinduism and Buddhism, generally?ImmoDuck

A lot of things. They share a lot of the same philisophical concepts but are fundamentally very different.

Hinduism draws its origins from the Vedas, a set of Sanskrit texts outlining Hindu belief and ritual practice. Buddhism is the teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha (c. 500 BCE) that draw on Hindu concepts (like atman) but put their own spin on them.

The ultimate goal in both is removing oneself from the samsaric existence (samsara being the wheel of existence, a constant cycle of death and rebirth that has always been and always will be). Moksha for Hinduism and Nirvana for Buddhism. However, the means of achieveing those goals are very different.

I have never read anything on hindu or buddhist.....bsman00

That is where the concept of reincarnation comes from.

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Tiefster

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#19 Tiefster
Member since 2005 • 14639 Posts

Any being can be reborn into another being. My cat might be my nephew one day, my great grandma could be my dog.

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RadBooley

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#20 RadBooley
Member since 2008 • 1237 Posts

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought there weren't a whole lot of supernatural elements in Buddhism.

If that's so, I've always wondered how reincarnation could work without things like souls, dieties to control reincarnation, etc.

I've always respected Buddhism as a philosophy and Buddha as a philosophical teacher. I'd just like some clarification on those two points. :)

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ImmoDuck

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#21 ImmoDuck
Member since 2007 • 231 Posts

[QUOTE="ImmoDuck"]Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. By the way, what seperates Hinduism and Buddhism, generally?foxhound_fox


A lot of things. They share a lot of the same philisophical concepts but are fundamentally very different.

Hinduism draws its origins from the Vedas, a set of Sanskrit texts outlining Hindu belief and ritual practice. Buddhism is the teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha (c. 500 BCE) that draw on Hindu concepts (like atman) but put their own spin on them.

The ultimate goal in both is removing oneself from the samsaric existence (samsara being the wheel of existence, a constant cycle of death and rebirth that has always been and always will be). Moksha for Hinduism and Nirvana for Buddhism. However, the means of achieveing those goals are very different.

I have never read anything on hindu or buddhist.....bsman00

That is where the concept of reincarnation comes from.

Ah, I see. Alright, thanks. I'll come to you again if anything else crosses my mind on the subject.

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#22 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought there weren't a whole lot of supernatural elements in Buddhism.

If that's so, I've always wondered how reincarnation could work without things like souls, dieties to control reincarnation, etc.

I've always respected Buddhism as a philosophy and Buddha as a philosophical teacher. I'd just like some clarification on those two points. :)

RadBooley


It depends on who you ask.

Theravada and Zen Buddhism don't have very many supernatural elements at all... while Mahayana and Vajrayana have enough to compete with the best of them.

Reincarnation is controlled by karma. It is like a currency. You get "paid" in good karma for good deeds and bad karma for bad deeds. Depending on how much you have "buys" you into your new existence. Of course, that is an extremely bastardized way of explaining it, but it works.

The concept of the "soul" in Buddhism is an extension of that in Hinduism. In Hinduism, there is the "atman" or soul, a manifestation of the thoughts of an individual, that carries over from one life to the next. In Buddhism, they have to take this concept and apply it to their concept of impermanence. So they came up with the idea of "anatman" or "no self." It is basically the same idea, except instead of it being a constant manifestation of the same "person," it just slightly "changes" over time.

It is really odd... and I haven't kept up on my Theravada in a while, though I do plan on reading the Dhammapada soon.

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deactivated-58188738395f3

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#23 deactivated-58188738395f3
Member since 2008 • 1161 Posts

I don't believe in reincarnation. When the brain dies that's it. If there is a God you probably go to heaven and he may make a copy of you.

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#24 RadBooley
Member since 2008 • 1237 Posts

[QUOTE="RadBooley"]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought there weren't a whole lot of supernatural elements in Buddhism.

If that's so, I've always wondered how reincarnation could work without things like souls, dieties to control reincarnation, etc.

I've always respected Buddhism as a philosophy and Buddha as a philosophical teacher. I'd just like some clarification on those two points. :)

foxhound_fox


Theravada and Zen Buddhism don't have very many supernatural elements at all... while Mahayana and Vajrayana have enough to compete with the best of them.

Reincarnation is controlled by karma. It is like a currency. You get "paid" in good karma for good deeds and bad karma for bad deeds. Depending on how much you have "buys" you into your new existence. Of course, that is an extremely bastardized way of explaining it, but it works.

That's where I've always gotten lost. Isn't having some sort of record of karma that influences one's new existance sort of supernatural? (I'm mainly referring to Theravada Buddhism here).

Maybe I'm thinking about it wrong. :?

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#25 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

That's where I've always gotten lost. Isn't having some sort of record of karma that influences one's new existance sort of supernatural? (I'm mainly referring to Theravada Buddhism here).

Maybe I'm thinking about it wrong. :?

RadBooley


That's the issue I've always found with Buddhism. If "you" are affected by karma, then shouldn't there be a definitive "you" that doesn't change? The concept of anatman is a little vague and I've never fully grasped it.

As far as anatman goes for Buddhists, it isn't supernatural. In some of the Mahayana discourses, there are things called "dharmas" that are like atoms that phase in and out of existence. Every time these dharmas phase out of existence and new ones come into their place, they carry over the "data" of the first, only with slight variation... and only VERY slowly do things change in an appreciable amount. It is their explanation of decomposition and further proof that things change and are impermanent.

It would be difficult for me to try and explain all these things, especially in enough detail for anyone to understand them, without going and finding my course notes and just copying them verbatim into a post.

Theravadin Buddhists very much play down the supernatural elements of the belief, despite the requirement of becoming an Arhat (or Buddha under the Buddha's Dharma) requires one to be male, so women need to be reborn as men and then join the sangha (the monks community). And the fact that the mythos surrounding the life of Shakyamuni Buddha is incredibly supernatural (virgin birth, etc.). Thus enforcing the fact that one needs to believe in reincarnation for one to become enlightened.

The only Buddhist sect that requires very little, to no supernatural belief or leaps of faith is Zen. All the previous sects require many lives of work in order to achieve enlightenment. Mahayana requiring at least two. Zen allows you to become enlightened straight up, no bull****.

But then you have to ask yourself, if there is no objective way to analyze enlightenment, how do we really know when someone is enlightened?

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#26 RadBooley
Member since 2008 • 1237 Posts

[QUOTE="RadBooley"]That's where I've always gotten lost. Isn't having some sort of record of karma that influences one's new existance sort of supernatural? (I'm mainly referring to Theravada Buddhism here).

Maybe I'm thinking about it wrong. :?

foxhound_fox


That's the issue I've always found with Buddhism. If "you" are affected by karma, then shouldn't there be a definitive "you" that doesn't change? The concept of anatman is a little vague and I've never fully grasped it.

As far as anatman goes for Buddhists, it isn't supernatural. In some of the Mahayana discourses, there are things called "dharmas" that are like atoms that phase in and out of existence. Every time these dharmas phase out of existence and new ones come into their place, they carry over the "data" of the first, only with slight variation... and only VERY slowly do things change in an appreciable amount. It is their explanation of decomposition and further proof that things change and are impermanent.

It would be difficult for me to try and explain all these things, especially in enough detail for anyone to understand them, without going and finding my course notes and just copying them verbatim into a post.

Theravadin Buddhists very much play down the supernatural elements of the belief, despite the requirement of becoming an Arhat (or Buddha under the Buddha's Dharma) requires one to be male, so women need to be reborn as men and then join the sangha (the monks community). And the fact that the mythos surrounding the life of Shakyamuni Buddha is incredibly supernatural (virgin birth, etc.). Thus enforcing the fact that one needs to believe in reincarnation for one to become enlightened.

The only Buddhist sect that requires very little, to no supernatural belief or leaps of faith is Zen. All the previous sects require many lives of work in order to achieve enlightenment. Mahayana requiring at least two. Zen allows you to become enlightened straight up, no bull****.

But then you have to ask yourself, if there is no objective way to analyze enlightenment, how do we really know when someone is enlightened?

Yeah, that's essentially what I've been unable to wrap my head around surrounding Buddhism. :?

Although, I had always just sort of rationalized karma as a means to improve the planet and the lives of those on it. Like, the good works one does affect future generations moreso than it does the actual person who does them. But hey, that's just me and my attempts to root the idea of karma into something observable and something that doesn't require anything supernatural to function.

Are there any Buddhist texts or resources that can help clear some of this up? (Not like your post didn't do a good job, I'm just interested in Buddhism and have no idea what I ought to be looking into.)

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#27 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

Yeah, that's essentially what I've been unable to wrap my head around surrounding Buddhism. :?

Although, I had always just sort of rationalized karma as a means to improve the planet and the lives of those on it. Like, the good works one does affect future generations moreso than it does the actual person who does them. But hey, that's just me and my attempts to root the idea of karma into something observable and something that doesn't require anything supernatural to function.

Are there any Buddhist texts or resources that can help clear some of this up? (Not like your post didn't do a good job, I'm just interested in Buddhism and have no idea what I ought to be looking into.)

RadBooley


Wikipedia would probably be the best place to go, since its freely available on the internet.

But there are some scholarly texts that I'd have to recommend as well:

  • "The Foundations of Buddhism" by Rupert Gethin (Theravada)
  • "Mahayana Buddhism: The Doctrinal Foundations" by Paul Williams (Mahayana)
  • "Introduction to Tibetan Buddhism" by John Powers (Vajrayana)
  • "Zen: Tradition and Transition" by Kenneth Kraft (Zen)


Those are the four sourcebooks I used for my course in Buddhism. They are all great, but both the Williams and Powers books are some very difficult reads.

As far as actual scripture goes:

  • The Dhammapada (the deer park sermon, basically the main text of central Buddhist doctrines)
  • The Astasahasrika Prajnaparimita (or Perfection of Wisdom, the earliest and most important Mahayana texts)
  • The Mulamadhyamikakarika (or Fundamental Wisdome of the Middle Way, Nagarjuna's treatise on Shunyata or emptiness, a HUGE Mahayana concept that carries over into Vajrayana and Zen)
  • The Bardo Thodol (or Tibetan Book of the Dead, one of the most important Vajrayana texts)
  • The Lankavatara Sutra (a central Chan/Zen text that is the basis for many Zen ideas)


There are plenty more I could list, but that is a good start I think.

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MyNameisaMeme

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#28 MyNameisaMeme
Member since 2009 • 661 Posts

People can be reincarnated into animals, and vice versa.

-_Rain_-

Humans are animals.

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RadBooley

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#29 RadBooley
Member since 2008 • 1237 Posts

[QUOTE="RadBooley"]Yeah, that's essentially what I've been unable to wrap my head around surrounding Buddhism. :?

Although, I had always just sort of rationalized karma as a means to improve the planet and the lives of those on it. Like, the good works one does affect future generations moreso than it does the actual person who does them. But hey, that's just me and my attempts to root the idea of karma into something observable and something that doesn't require anything supernatural to function.

Are there any Buddhist texts or resources that can help clear some of this up? (Not like your post didn't do a good job, I'm just interested in Buddhism and have no idea what I ought to be looking into.)

foxhound_fox

There are plenty more I could list, but that is a good start I think.

Wow, thanks a lot! :D

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#30 Holy_Xbox
Member since 2008 • 489 Posts
I love beef !
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#31 bigfatcrap
Member since 2006 • 1919 Posts

It's completely true. I used to be a platypus. Oh the adventures I've had!