Religious Topic

Can a person believe in a god without faith?

For the philosophers (or others) out there...

It seems to me that reason itself rests on faith...at least, I cannot know that all men are mortal.

"Socrates Is A Man

All Men Are Mortal

Therefore Socractes is Mortal"

Is an example of flawed reasoning since we do not know for certain that humans are mortal. Scientifically speaking...we are alive, right? Who is to say that we are not mortal?

All men are mortal. Everything that is now living will eventually die, it's the only absolute truth of this world, the only thing we can be absolutely certain of. What happens after death is a whole other subject, but we are all going to die eventually, it's inevitable.

Yes it does. Everything outside of mathematics, logic or evidence requires faith. God has none of those.

Without inductive reasoning we might as well curl up in the fetal position and weep.SolidSnake35

nice

All men are mortal. Everything that is now living will eventually die, it's the only absolute truth of this world, the only thing we can be absolutely certain of. What happens after death is a whole other subject, but we are all going to die eventually, it's inevitable.

black_cat19

At some point believing in God comes down to blind faith. You can trace the causes of everything back only so far, and then we don't know what caused it. That is where we believe God comes in. Of course the role of God has gotten smaller and smaller over the centuries. People used to believe that it was because of God that we were able to move, but science has taken away from Gods role. We now know that it isn't God that lets us move, but rather muscles which are controlled by our brain. So belief in God ends up coming to blind faith. jrabbit99

[QUOTE="jrabbit99"]At some point believing in God comes down to blind faith. You can trace the causes of everything back only so far, and then we don't know what caused it. That is where we believe God comes in. Of course the role of God has gotten smaller and smaller over the centuries. People used to believe that it was because of God that we were able to move, but science has taken away from Gods role. We now know that it isn't God that lets us move, but rather muscles which are controlled by our brain. So belief in God ends up coming to blind faith. illegalimigrant

Forming an opinion based on all the available evidence is the exact opposite of faith.

[QUOTE="jrabbit99"]At some point believing in God comes down to blind faith. You can trace the causes of everything back only so far, and then we don't know what caused it. That is where we believe God comes in. Of course the role of God has gotten smaller and smaller over the centuries. People used to believe that it was because of God that we were able to move, but science has taken away from Gods role. We now know that it isn't God that lets us move, but rather muscles which are controlled by our brain. So belief in God ends up coming to blind faith. illegalimigrant

I practice the magic in Harry Potter and it works for me.

[QUOTE="jrabbit99"]At some point believing in God comes down to blind faith. You can trace the causes of everything back only so far, and then we don't know what caused it. That is where we believe God comes in. Of course the role of God has gotten smaller and smaller over the centuries. People used to believe that it was because of God that we were able to move, but science has taken away from Gods role. We now know that it isn't God that lets us move, but rather muscles which are controlled by our brain. So belief in God ends up coming to blind faith. illegalimigrant

No. Faith comes from hearing. Knowledge is not possible from hearing.

[QUOTE="illegalimigrant"][QUOTE="jrabbit99"]At some point believing in God comes down to blind faith. You can trace the causes of everything back only so far, and then we don't know what caused it. That is where we believe God comes in. Of course the role of God has gotten smaller and smaller over the centuries. People used to believe that it was because of God that we were able to move, but science has taken away from Gods role. We now know that it isn't God that lets us move, but rather muscles which are controlled by our brain. So belief in God ends up coming to blind faith. Danm_999

[QUOTE="black_cat19"]

All men are mortal. Everything that is now living will eventually die, it's the only absolute truth of this world, the only thing we can be absolutely certain of. What happens after death is a whole other subject, but we are all going to die eventually, it's inevitable.

illegalimigrant

Life AFTER death means you are still mortal, because even if there's something on the other side, you still die. Not being mortal means not dying in the first place.

[QUOTE="Danm_999"][QUOTE="illegalimigrant"] Well everything that is believed in science is also blind faith because it assumes that we know the truth. But as we discover new rules and mechanics of our universe then the scientific beliefs change to accept them. Even science has blind faith because it has to believe that there is nothing else that matters except what is known until something new is discovered.illegalimigrant

Regardless of whether or not you think human knowledge is limited to scientific inquiry, it does not require faith.

[QUOTE="black_cat19"]

All men are mortal. Everything that is now living will eventually die, it's the only absolute truth of this world, the only thing we can be absolutely certain of. What happens after death is a whole other subject, but we are all going to die eventually, it's inevitable.

illegalimigrant

Thanks to everyone who posted. I wasn't sure where this would go but religion is an intensely interesting topic for me personally so I appreciate the comments.

As to the "we cannot know that men are mortal"...I pulled that from a law school prep text...(and reversed the statements, by accident, and mispelled Socrates).

The point, which is purely therotical, I was trying to make is something I heard back in college in my astronomy class about the scientific method...it's an illustration:

Basically, it goes like this:

A scientist is a person sitting on an infinite number of apples. They record the color of the apple they pull from the top of the pyramid. If every apple pulled from the pyramid is red, then they can say that all the apples are most likely red. That is as good as it gets (inductive reasoning has it's limitations).

The point is that there in theory could be a green apple in the infinite pyramid. So anyone of us posting could in fact be immortal...we just cannot say for certain until that person is in fact dead.

There have been green apples in the past, and there will be green apples in the future...smoking used to be good for you, right?

Step back and think. That is the only reasonable place I can come to...or make an inductive leap and build off of that.

For believers of gods, there is adequate evidence of their god or gods. So in their minds it's reason, and not so much faith, that drives them.

[QUOTE="illegalimigrant"][QUOTE="black_cat19"]

All men are mortal. Everything that is now living will eventually die, it's the only absolute truth of this world, the only thing we can be absolutely certain of. What happens after death is a whole other subject, but we are all going to die eventually, it's inevitable.

black_cat19

Life AFTER death means you are still mortal, because even if there's something on the other side, you still die. Not being mortal means not dying in the first place.

Everything in this world is blind. Just because you have a method does not make it blind.Science relies on what can be seen but ignores what can be felt and other human characteristics. Is that not being blind in some way? I'm not dissing scientific advancement. We all know we need science.illegalimigrant

Not everything in this world is blind.

Not everything is subjective. People who say it is are usually masking a pretty deficient knowledge in something.

But saying that science is the absolute truth is just ignorant.illegalimigrant

Who says this?

Certainly not science. Science, by definition is a system of predicting outcomes based on the scientific method.

It doesn't claim to be an absolute truth, that's religion.

Scientists or people who call science an absolute truth are bad scientists.

Even science has its limits as no matter how far it goes there will always be new questions arising. And there are also things that science does not touch or just ignores. In fact many scientists were ridiculed before for studying time or other science fiction sections. And now its acceptable.illegalimigrant

Yes, science has its limits. That does not make it a belief system, because when a (good) scientist finds a limit to his/her knowledge, they say "I don't know".

Science also does not touch things it cannot test (for example, the existence of God). This does not make it a belief system either.

Faith is belief without evidence. Science, by definition, will end when evidence does. Therefore science and faith cannot exist in the same realm.

*theoretical

Time for bed.

[QUOTE="black_cat19"]

[QUOTE="illegalimigrant"] I think what he means is what happens after death. If there is life after death then we are not mortal.illegalimigrant

Life AFTER death means you are still mortal, because even if there's something on the other side, you still die. Not being mortal means not dying in the first place.

Then why are we arguing? I'm just saying the exact same thing you just said. :P

How could not one person get the point of this thread. Its not asking if we die is asking about life after death. If we do not know whats after death how can we say that we are mortal when we do not know. Everything in the universe is eternal. Its just in different forms. So if you see a rock then the rock has always existed and will always exist maybe in different forms. So if we are alive right now then that means that we were alive before and will be alive afterwards perhaps just in difference forms. I think this is a logical statement considering I'm just using that which is known. If we see everything around us being infinite then its fair to assume that we are infinite too.illegalimigrant

Can a person believe in a god without faith?

Stowik

God is not religious, you can believe in God without showing affliation towards any religion- that's what I do. It makes your life simple and positive.

That all depends on what you define "God" as. If you define "God" as Ritz Bitz, then you don't need faith to believe God exists. But if you claim that it is a "being," or is supernatural in any way... damn sure it requires faith. And a ton of it to boot.

Meaning that what we become after we die does not have the memory to know what it once was.illegalimigrant

There is a way to recover the memory through meditation, try it :)

To believe in something that you cannot see, hear, or touch requires faith.

[QUOTE="Stowik"]

Can a person believe in a god without faith?

Blubadox

God is not religious, you can believe in God without showing affliation towards any religion- that's what I do. It makes your life simple and positive.

[QUOTE="Blubadox"]

[QUOTE="Stowik"]

Can a person believe in a god without faith?

foxhound_fox

God is not religious, you can believe in God without showing affliation towards any religion- that's what I do. It makes your life simple and positive.

There is no such thing as uknowable, it's just that you dunno what/how/when etc, the sad part is religions have conditioned people to believe in supernatural winged beings of light. If there is God you must see it...otherwise it's better not to believe!!- atheists atleast question existence of God so they keep looking for the real truth so it's not all mere blind belief.

[QUOTE="illegalimigrant"] Meaning that what we become after we die does not have the memory to know what it once was.Blubadox

There is a way to recover the memory through meditation, try it :)

[QUOTE="Blubadox"]

[QUOTE="Stowik"]

Can a person believe in a god without faith?

foxhound_fox

God is not religious, you can believe in God without showing affliation towards any religion- that's what I do. It makes your life simple and positive.

[QUOTE="illegalimigrant"][QUOTE="black_cat19"]

All men are mortal. Everything that is now living will eventually die, it's the only absolute truth of this world, the only thing we can be absolutely certain of. What happens after death is a whole other subject, but we are all going to die eventually, it's inevitable.

Stowik

Thanks to everyone who posted. I wasn't sure where this would go but religion is an intensely interesting topic for me personally so I appreciate the comments.

As to the "we cannot know that men are mortal"...I pulled that from a law school prep text...(and reversed the statements, by accident, and mispelled Socrates).

The point, which is purely therotical, I was trying to make is something I heard back in college in my astronomy class about the scientific method...it's an illustration:

Basically, it goes like this:

A scientist is a person sitting on an infinite number of apples. They record the color of the apple they pull from the top of the pyramid. If every apple pulled from the pyramid is red, then they can say that all the apples are most likely red. That is as good as it gets (inductive reasoning has it's limitations).

The point is that there in theory could be a green apple in the infinite pyramid. So anyone of us posting could in fact be immortal...we just cannot say for certain until that person is in fact dead.

There have been green apples in the past, and there will be green apples in the future...smoking used to be good for you, right?

Step back and think. That is the only reasonable place I can come to...or make an inductive leap and build off of that.

For believers of gods, there is adequate evidence of their god or gods. So in their minds it's reason, and not so much faith, that drives them.

All men are mortal

Illegalimmigrant is a man

Therefore Illegalimmigrant is mortal

Sorry, couldn't resist. But I see your point about philosophy potentially being annoying at times.

Just as there is no hard evidence that God does not exist, there is no evidence that he does. So yes I believe that faith is required to believe in God.btaylor2404

The thing is that the reason some people believe that you actually need proof to deny the existence of god is all due to the immensely dense and articulated tradition (called religion) built around the notion of god. When you have such a wealth of, supposedly affirming of gods notion, information based on folklore and tradition then the idea of god seems to be a self-evident notion, while its not.

There is no such thing as uknowable, it's just that you dunno what/how/when etc, the sad part is religions have conditioned people to believe in supernatural winged beings of light. If there is God you must see it...otherwise it's better not to believe!!- atheists atleast question existence of God so they keep looking for the real truth so it's not all mere blind belief.

Blubadox

That is not my definition. For me faith is the belief in something I can feel and have experienced but cannot prove. For example I have seen a ghost(demon(or entity I don't know for sure)) and for me they are real. I cannot prove it but its real to me.illegalimigrant

Can a person believe in a god without faith?

For the philosophers (or others) out there...

It seems to me that reason itself rests on faith...at least, I cannot know that all men are mortal.

"Socrates Is A Man

All Men Are Mortal

Therefore Socractes is Mortal"

Is an example of flawed reasoning since we do not know for certain that humans are mortal. Scientifically speaking...we are alive, right? Who is to say that we are not mortal?

Stowik

[QUOTE="Blubadox"]

There is no such thing as uknowable, it's just that you dunno what/how/when etc, the sad part is religions have conditioned people to believe in supernatural winged beings of light. If there is God you must see it...otherwise it's better not to believe!!- atheists atleast question existence of God so they keep looking for the real truth so it's not all mere blind belief.

foxhound_fox

If you read ancient philosphy you will know everything is defined as "creator"- both external and internal universe. If everything is made of tiny quantum particles- so is your mind, body and thought. Something cannot evolve out of nothing, therefore creator and creation are two lines without beginning or end. Time, Space and Universe are derived out of sense perceptions- therefore your observations are limited to your senses....so your interpretations are also limited. How do you define the exact nature of the matter, take a flower for example...is it a mere combination of atoms and reflection of light that is making it beautiful? Or is it your interpretation?

If you read ancient philosphy you will know everything is defined as "creator"- both external and internal universe. If everything is made of tiny quantum particles- so is your mind, body and thought. Blubadox

Something cannot evolve out of nothing, therefore creator and creation are two lines without beginning or end. Blubadox

Time, Space and Universe are derived out of sense perceptions- therefore your observations are limited to your senses....so your interpretations are also limited. How do you define the exact nature of the matter, take a flower for example...is it a mere combination of atoms and reflection of light that is making it beautiful? Or is it your interpretation?

Blubadox

[QUOTE="Stowik"]

Can a person believe in a god without faith?

For the philosophers (or others) out there...

It seems to me that reason itself rests on faith...at least, I cannot know that all men are mortal.

"Socrates Is A Man

All Men Are Mortal

Therefore Socractes is Mortal"

Is an example of flawed reasoning since we do not know for certain that humans are mortal. Scientifically speaking...we are alive, right? Who is to say that we are not mortal?

mindstorm

I never understood the need to believe in something with as much proof to exist as Big Footboxxybabee342

An Upanishadic scholar will tell you that sense perceptions are merely part of maya (illusion) and distract you from the realization of Brahman. However, that still doesn't stop the thing you are sensing from being real and provable through the scientific method.

foxhound_fox

I see what you are saying, but it's just a mere intellectual debate we are having. Why do you need to prove by scientific method? It definetly raises some questions. Because there is truly no utility or purpose in seeing or realizing God. Inspiration is higher than intelligence......But essential to know what's the real source of everything. Imagine there is nothing in this whole universe, an intelligent robot won't do anything but a human being will look for light because he has hope even if there is none, something inspires him to move forward. Can it be proved? Heck no....there is no need to do it.

Unless they find complete rock hard proof for everything, then pretty much everything requires faith. For all I know i could be in the matrix right now and robots could be controlling my thoughts:|