Should Japan Be Allowed To Remillitarize Again?

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IndigoSunrise

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#1 IndigoSunrise
Member since 2009 • 1141 Posts

Basicilly since World War 2 after their defeat Japan has not been allowed to have their own millitary. They are allowed to have a small defense force but thats about it.

WW2 was over 60 years ago. Japan has proven they are a stable country. Why not let them have an Army?

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duxup

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#2 duxup
Member since 2002 • 43443 Posts
Huh? They have their own military.
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Shad0ki11

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#3 Shad0ki11
Member since 2006 • 12576 Posts

I think Japan should be allowed to do whatever the hell it wants (except genocides).

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Toriko42

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#4 Toriko42
Member since 2006 • 27562 Posts
Japan should be able to exercise it's right as a sovereign nation, therefore it should have a standing army.
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tocklestein2005

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#5 tocklestein2005
Member since 2008 • 5532 Posts

my grandmother was 40 miles from Nagasaki at the time an atomic bomb was dropped there. She losta sister to radiation induced cancer.

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BigDizz

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#6 BigDizz
Member since 2004 • 2592 Posts

Yea... i dont understand

They DO have a military

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194197844077667059316682358889

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#7 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts

Basicilly since World War 2 after their defeat Japan has not been allowed to have their own millitary. They are allowed to have a small defense force but thats about it.

WW2 was over 60 years ago. Japan has proven they are a stable country. Why not let them have an Army?

IndigoSunrise
They have nearly a quarter million active JSDF members; I can understand North Korea's bat**** insanity making them nervous, but I think that they are well-equipped already to contain any threat from them.
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mfp16

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#8 mfp16
Member since 2006 • 4551 Posts
Huh? They have their own military.duxup
thats not quite true.. from the council on foreign relations: Since 1947, Japan's constitution has forbidden the formation of a traditional military force. The country has maintained only a Self Defense Force (SDF), the mission of which has been to protect the Japanese mainland. Even within these limitations, the SDF has performed a paramilitary, logistical role, supporting U.S. troops based in Japan in exchange for promises of protection. Some experts now see this dynamic shifting. Arguments for "remilitarization"-or military "normalization," as many proponents term it-have gained currency over the last two decades. Since 9/11, SDF forces have been deployed overseas for the first time (to Afghanistan and Iraq). Their roles have been almost exclusively support-based, but their deployment is seen as symbolic of a change in attitudes as well as a challenge to the constitution. Japan is already one of the world's largest spenders on national defense, and the SDF is a robust force, though expenditures are narrowly targeted and essentially protective-they include no long-range bombers or missiles, no aircraft carries or nuclear submarines. Japan has come under increasing pressure to redirect this focus and expand its military operations, both from the United States and also domestically, in response to feared threats from China and North Korea. ... and to answer the question... no...
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194197844077667059316682358889

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#9 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts

my grandmother was 40 miles from Nagasaki at the time an atomic bomb was dropped there. She losta sister to radiation induced cancer.

tocklestein2005
That's very sad to hear, though I don't see it having any relevance whatsoever to this thread...
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mfp16

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#10 mfp16
Member since 2006 • 4551 Posts
[QUOTE="tocklestein2005"]

my grandmother was 40 miles from Nagasaki at the time an atomic bomb was dropped there. She losta sister to radiation induced cancer.

xaos
That's very sad to hear, though I don't see it having any relevance whatsoever to this thread...

it's basically the reason why they aren't allowed a standing military...
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duxup

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#11 duxup
Member since 2002 • 43443 Posts
[QUOTE="duxup"]Huh? They have their own military.mfp16
thats not quite true.. from the council on foreign relations: Since 1947, Japan's constitution has forbidden the formation of a traditional military force. The country has maintained only a Self Defense Force (SDF), the mission of which has been to protect the Japanese mainland. Even within these limitations, the SDF has performed a paramilitary, logistical role, supporting U.S. troops based in Japan in exchange for promises of protection. Some experts now see this dynamic shifting. Arguments for "remilitarization"-or military "normalization," as many proponents term it-have gained currency over the last two decades. Since 9/11, SDF forces have been deployed overseas for the first time (to Afghanistan and Iraq). Their roles have been almost exclusively support-based, but their deployment is seen as symbolic of a change in attitudes as well as a challenge to the constitution. Japan is already one of the world's largest spenders on national defense, and the SDF is a robust force, though expenditures are narrowly targeted and essentially protective-they include no long-range bombers or missiles, no aircraft carries or nuclear submarines. Japan has come under increasing pressure to redirect this focus and expand its military operations, both from the United States and also domestically, in response to feared threats from China and North Korea. ... and to answer the question... no...

They have their own military. It looks like any other military.
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Duckman5

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#12 Duckman5
Member since 2006 • 18934 Posts
They should be able to do what they want.
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carrot-cake

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#13 carrot-cake
Member since 2008 • 6880 Posts

my grandmother was 40 miles from Nagasaki at the time an atomic bomb was dropped there. She losta sister to radiation induced cancer.

tocklestein2005


Although that is indeed tragic, it has no relevance to this thread whatsoever.

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-eddy-

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#14 -eddy-
Member since 2006 • 11443 Posts
Just because they attacked US doesn't mean they shouldn't have an army. :l
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mfp16

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#15 mfp16
Member since 2006 • 4551 Posts
[QUOTE="duxup"] They have their own military. It looks like any other military.

no they don't... it was part of the treaty they signed at the end of WW2 which is still in effect... they have many restrictions on it... feel free to do some research on the issue.
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IndigoSunrise

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#16 IndigoSunrise
Member since 2009 • 1141 Posts
[QUOTE="mfp16"][QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="tocklestein2005"]

my grandmother was 40 miles from Nagasaki at the time an atomic bomb was dropped there. She losta sister to radiation induced cancer.

That's very sad to hear, though I don't see it having any relevance whatsoever to this thread...

it's basically the reason why they aren't allowed a standing military...

Japan dropped a bomb on their own cities?
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194197844077667059316682358889

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#17 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts
Just because they attacked US doesn't mean they shouldn't have an army. :l-eddy-
Yeah, there are much better reasons
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mfp16

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#18 mfp16
Member since 2006 • 4551 Posts

[QUOTE="tocklestein2005"]

my grandmother was 40 miles from Nagasaki at the time an atomic bomb was dropped there. She losta sister to radiation induced cancer.

carrot-cake


Although that is indeed tragic, it has no relevance to this thread whatsoever.

actually it does... it's at the heart of why they aren't allowed a standing military due to the treaty at the end of WW2

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carrot-cake

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#19 carrot-cake
Member since 2008 • 6880 Posts

[QUOTE="mfp16"][QUOTE="duxup"]Huh? They have their own military.duxup
thats not quite true.. from the council on foreign relations: Since 1947, Japan's constitution has forbidden the formation of a traditional military force. The country has maintained only a Self Defense Force (SDF), the mission of which has been to protect the Japanese mainland. Even within these limitations, the SDF has performed a paramilitary, logistical role, supporting U.S. troops based in Japan in exchange for promises of protection. Some experts now see this dynamic shifting. Arguments for "remilitarization"-or military "normalization," as many proponents term it-have gained currency over the last two decades. Since 9/11, SDF forces have been deployed overseas for the first time (to Afghanistan and Iraq). Their roles have been almost exclusively support-based, but their deployment is seen as symbolic of a change in attitudes as well as a challenge to the constitution. Japan is already one of the world's largest spenders on national defense, and the SDF is a robust force, though expenditures are narrowly targeted and essentially protective-they include no long-range bombers or missiles, no aircraft carries or nuclear submarines. Japan has come under increasing pressure to redirect this focus and expand its military operations, both from the United States and also domestically, in response to feared threats from China and North Korea. ... and to answer the question... no...

They have their own military. It looks like any other military.


It is not a traditional military. It is much smaller, and it is only used for defence.

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mfp16

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#20 mfp16
Member since 2006 • 4551 Posts
[QUOTE="mfp16"][QUOTE="xaos"] That's very sad to hear, though I don't see it having any relevance whatsoever to this thread...IndigoSunrise
it's basically the reason why they aren't allowed a standing military...

Japan dropped a bomb on their own cities?

no, they were on the losing side of WW2.
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hakanakumono

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#21 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

They have an army but it's not an "army."

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Never3ndingLife

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#22 Never3ndingLife
Member since 2009 • 1114 Posts

i thought they did?.. but if they dont, than i believe they have the right to construct one

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194197844077667059316682358889

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#23 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts

[QUOTE="carrot-cake"]

[QUOTE="tocklestein2005"]

my grandmother was 40 miles from Nagasaki at the time an atomic bomb was dropped there. She losta sister to radiation induced cancer.

mfp16


Although that is indeed tragic, it has no relevance to this thread whatsoever.

actually it does... it's at the heart of why they aren't allowed a standing military due to the treaty at the end of WW2

How does the atomic attack on Nagasaki inform the demilitarization of Japan?
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duxup

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#24 duxup
Member since 2002 • 43443 Posts
[QUOTE="mfp16"][QUOTE="duxup"] They have their own military. It looks like any other military.

no they don't... it was part of the treaty they signed at the end of WW2 which is still in effect... they have many restrictions on it... feel free to do some research on the issue.

I suggest the same. Their restrictions are purely based on paper. They could choose to change that, and have, at their whim. They have their own military.
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194197844077667059316682358889

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#25 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts

It is not a traditional military. It is much smaller, and it is only used for defence.

carrot-cake
It's 24th largest in the world; I think that they are doing fine
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Vandalvideo

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#26 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
I think Japan should have a military that rivals our own...........in technology. We need someone over there to help the SOKOs.
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Serraph105

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#27 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36092 Posts

[QUOTE="duxup"]Huh? They have their own military.mfp16
thats not quite true.. from the council on foreign relations: Since 1947, Japan's constitution has forbidden the formation of a traditional military force. The country has maintained only a Self Defense Force (SDF), the mission of which has been to protect the Japanese mainland. Even within these limitations, the SDF has performed a paramilitary, logistical role, supporting U.S. troops based in Japan in exchange for promises of protection. Some experts now see this dynamic shifting. Arguments for "remilitarization"-or military "normalization," as many proponents term it-have gained currency over the last two decades. Since 9/11, SDF forces have been deployed overseas for the first time (to Afghanistan and Iraq). Their roles have been almost exclusively support-based, but their deployment is seen as symbolic of a change in attitudes as well as a challenge to the constitution. Japan is already one of the world's largest spenders on national defense, and the SDF is a robust force, though expenditures are narrowly targeted and essentially protective-they include no long-range bombers or missiles, no aircraft carries or nuclear submarines. Japan has come under increasing pressure to redirect this focus and expand its military operations, both from the United States and also domestically, in response to feared threats from China and North Korea. ... and to answer the question... no...

interesting. I guess as long as they are not really complaining why bring it up. Personally I would just be happy that my country was producing a bunch of cash and the majority of incredibly smart people in the world. No need to get all macho and start spending money on making a giant military.

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mfp16

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#28 mfp16
Member since 2006 • 4551 Posts
[QUOTE="duxup"][QUOTE="mfp16"][QUOTE="duxup"] They have their own military. It looks like any other military.

no they don't... it was part of the treaty they signed at the end of WW2 which is still in effect... they have many restrictions on it... feel free to do some research on the issue.

I suggest the same. Their restrictions are purely based on paper. They could choose to change that, and have, at their whim. They have their own military.

I'm not going to argue... I've done plenty of research on the subject believe me..
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carrot-cake

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#29 carrot-cake
Member since 2008 • 6880 Posts

[QUOTE="carrot-cake"]

It is not a traditional military. It is much smaller, and it is only used for defence.

xaos

It's 24th largest in the world; I think that they are doing fine


Actually according to that list, its the 49th largest in the world with a whole 296,550 active troops.
You're looking at the active troop list...

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Gallion-Beast

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#30 Gallion-Beast
Member since 2005 • 35803 Posts
Why not? Germany does after all and things sure as hell hit the fan when they were denied the right after WWI.
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enterawesome

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#31 enterawesome
Member since 2009 • 9477 Posts
Nah, lets just get a bunch of Americans to protect them.
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duxup

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#32 duxup
Member since 2002 • 43443 Posts

They have their own military. It looks like any other military.
It is not a traditional military. It is much smaller, and it is only used for defence.

carrot-cake

Wikipedia notes their active numbers at 238,000 (ranked 24th). That is hardly tiny. The idea that they're only used in defense ... that's part of just about any nations rhetoric and depends on your point of view and where you point the weapon. Aside from some conceptual paper claims Japan has long since been slowly loosening restrictions on their military.

The question of should they be allowed to "remillitarize" is silly. They long since have done so.

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Toriko42

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#33 Toriko42
Member since 2006 • 27562 Posts
[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="tocklestein2005"]

my grandmother was 40 miles from Nagasaki at the time an atomic bomb was dropped there. She losta sister to radiation induced cancer.

mfp16
That's very sad to hear, though I don't see it having any relevance whatsoever to this thread...

it's basically the reason why they aren't allowed a standing military...

So because they got nuked they can't have an army :?
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mfp16

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#34 mfp16
Member since 2006 • 4551 Posts

[QUOTE="carrot-cake"]They have their own military. It looks like any other military.duxup


It is not a traditional military. It is much smaller, and it is only used for defence.

Wikipedia notes their active numbers at 238,000 (ranked 24th). That is hardly tiny. The idea that they're only used in defense ... that's part of just about any nations rhetoric and depends on your point of view and where you point the weapon. Aside from some conceptual paper claims Japan has long since been slowly loosening restrictions on their military.

The question of should they be allowed to "remillitarize" is silly. They long since have done so.

feel free to read something thats not from wikipedia... this is the council for foreign relations once again... probably a bit more trustworthy http://www.cfr.org/publication/10439/

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-eddy-

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#35 -eddy-
Member since 2006 • 11443 Posts
[QUOTE="-eddy-"]Just because they attacked US doesn't mean they shouldn't have an army. :lxaos
Yeah, there are much better reasons

Uuoh, that's pretty nasty. Still, surely other militarized countries have also done rather bad things.
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Toriko42

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#36 Toriko42
Member since 2006 • 27562 Posts
[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="-eddy-"]Just because they attacked US doesn't mean they shouldn't have an army. :l-eddy-
Yeah, there are much better reasons

Uuoh, that's pretty nasty. Still, surely other militarized countries have also done rather bad things.

I don't think using something that happened a long time ago under very extreme and different circumstances counts as a reason to deny Japan the right to a military.
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duxup

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#37 duxup
Member since 2002 • 43443 Posts

feel free to read something thats not from wikipedia... this is the council for foreign relations once again... probably a bit more trustworthy http://www.cfr.org/publication/10439/

mfp16

What about the wikipedia article is inaccurate or your link refutes?

The issue here I think is just a lot of "oh yeah I heard once in high school that japan doesn't have a military and we defend them" and what do you know, that turns out to be inaccurate.

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mfp16

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#38 mfp16
Member since 2006 • 4551 Posts
I don't think using something that happened a long time ago under very extreme and different circumstances counts as a reason to deny Japan the right to a military. Toriko42
The family of a lot of dead American soldiers would disagree with you...
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Toriko42

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#39 Toriko42
Member since 2006 • 27562 Posts
[QUOTE="Toriko42"] I don't think using something that happened a long time ago under very extreme and different circumstances counts as a reason to deny Japan the right to a military. mfp16
The family of a lot of dead American soldiers would disagree with you...

By that logic then no one who was in WW2 should have an army, infact no one should have an army by that logic. Those families of a lot of dead soldiers would also be very ignorant as well. It's not like Japan is the only country to have an army commit atrocities in war, everyone was guilty of something in WW2.
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SunofVich

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#40 SunofVich
Member since 2004 • 4665 Posts

Well Germany has remilitarized so why not.

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#41 mfp16
Member since 2006 • 4551 Posts

[QUOTE="mfp16"] feel free to read something thats not from wikipedia... this is the council for foreign relations once again... probably a bit more trustworthy http://www.cfr.org/publication/10439/

duxup

What about the wikipedia article is inaccurate or your link refutes?

The issue here I think is just a lot of "oh yeah I heard once in high school that japan doesn't have a military and we defend them" and what do you know, that turns out to be inaccurate.

LOL... I can assure you that my information goes a little bit deeper than "I heard one time in high school"... The fact remains... Japan does not have a standard military. It says it in their constitution. Yes, in Japan there has been some talk about changing the constitution, attitudes have changed a bit, and has been modified to allow Japan to participate in peacekeeping operations. They have publically stated inside and outside Japan, that they first article that states "Japan will not go to war" will not change. I'm not going to get into a tit for tat argument with you, but what they have presently is not a regular military... that may change in the future (which is the point of this thread)... you simply stating "Huh? They have a military" using a tone that you know more than the TC justs goes to show that you don't have enough information on the subject.
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194197844077667059316682358889

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#42 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts
[QUOTE="duxup"]

[QUOTE="mfp16"] feel free to read something thats not from wikipedia... this is the council for foreign relations once again... probably a bit more trustworthy http://www.cfr.org/publication/10439/

mfp16

What about the wikipedia article is inaccurate or your link refutes?

The issue here I think is just a lot of "oh yeah I heard once in high school that japan doesn't have a military and we defend them" and what do you know, that turns out to be inaccurate.

LOL... I can assure you that my information goes a little bit deeper than "I heard one time in high school"... The fact remains... Japan does not have a standard military. It says it in their constitution. Yes, in Japan there has been some talk about changing the constitution, attitudes have changed a bit, and has been modified to allow Japan to participate in peacekeeping operations. They have publically stated inside and outside Japan, that they first article that states "Japan will not go to war" will not change. I'm not going to get into a tit for tat argument with you, but what they have presently is not a regular military... that may change in the future (which is the point of this thread)... you simply stating "Huh? They have a military" using a tone that you know more than the TC justs goes to show that you don't have enough information on the subject.

Can you provide a list of objective (non-semantic) differences between the JSDF and the military of other, similarly sized and developed countries?
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hakanakumono

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#43 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

[QUOTE="Toriko42"] I don't think using something that happened a long time ago under very extreme and different circumstances counts as a reason to deny Japan the right to a military. mfp16
The family of a lot of dead American soldiers would disagree with you...

At least they only killed our soldiers. We targetted their citizens. Where does that place our standing for a military?

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194197844077667059316682358889

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#44 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts

[QUOTE="mfp16"][QUOTE="Toriko42"] I don't think using something that happened a long time ago under very extreme and different circumstances counts as a reason to deny Japan the right to a military. hakanakumono

The family of a lot of dead American soldiers would disagree with you...

At least they only killed our soldiers. We targetted their citizens. Where does that place our standing for a military?

See above re: rape of Nan King...
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duxup

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#45 duxup
Member since 2002 • 43443 Posts

[QUOTE="duxup"]

[QUOTE="mfp16"] feel free to read something thats not from wikipedia... this is the council for foreign relations once again... probably a bit more trustworthy http://www.cfr.org/publication/10439/

mfp16

What about the wikipedia article is inaccurate or your link refutes?

The issue here I think is just a lot of "oh yeah I heard once in high school that japan doesn't have a military and we defend them" and what do you know, that turns out to be inaccurate.

LOL... I can assure you that my information goes a little bit deeper than "I heard one time in high school"... The fact remains... Japan does not have a standard military. It says it in their constitution. Yes, in Japan there has been some talk about changing the constitution, attitudes have changed a bit, and has been modified to allow Japan to participate in peacekeeping operations. They have publically stated inside and outside Japan, that they first article that states "Japan will not go to war" will not change. I'm not going to get into a tit for tat argument with you, but what they have presently is not a regular military... that may change in the future (which is the point of this thread)... you simply stating "Huh? They have a military" using a tone that you know more than the TC justs goes to show that you don't have enough information on the subject.

So spill the beans what does that information refute about the wikipedia article?. Nothing there except your assurance?

The idea that on paper or thru public statements someone "will not go to war" is irrelevant to how militarized someplace is. Seriously thru history how many assurances peace treaties and so forth have been broken?

I can own a gun and claim to only use it in self defense. All I have to do is walk next door and point it at someone and suddenly all that talk and paper is irrelevant. Japan can change any of that stance at its whim, or just ignore it and go to war. The question was "Should Japan be allowed to demilitarize?" The question is moot. They've got a military and a capable one.

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Serraph105

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#46 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36092 Posts

[QUOTE="mfp16"][QUOTE="Toriko42"] I don't think using something that happened a long time ago under very extreme and different circumstances counts as a reason to deny Japan the right to a military. Toriko42
The family of a lot of dead American soldiers would disagree with you...

By that logic then no one who was in WW2 should have an army, infact no one should have an army by that logic. Those families of a lot of dead soldiers would also be very ignorant as well. It's not like Japan is the only country to have an army commit atrocities in war, everyone was guilty of something in WW2.

yeah about that

[spoiler] [/spoiler]

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hakanakumono

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#47 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="mfp16"] The family of a lot of dead American soldiers would disagree with you...xaos

At least they only killed our soldiers. We targetted their citizens. Where does that place our standing for a military?

See above re: rape of Nan King...

See: Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

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194197844077667059316682358889

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#48 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts

[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

At least they only killed our soldiers. We targetted their citizens. Where does that place our standing for a military?

hakanakumono

See above re: rape of Nan King...

See: Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

My point being that Japan's military was perfectly happy to target civilians for atrocities...
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hakanakumono

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#49 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="xaos"] See above re: rape of Nan King...xaos

See: Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

My point being that Japan's military was perfectly happy to target civilians for atrocities...

Yes, that's right. The difference is that Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and the Toukyou fire bombings were all ordered from Washington. No one planned the rape of nanking. The Japanese military in China basically did whatever it wanted, even before the war started.

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Toriko42

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#50 Toriko42
Member since 2006 • 27562 Posts

[QUOTE="Toriko42"][QUOTE="mfp16"] The family of a lot of dead American soldiers would disagree with you...Serraph105

By that logic then no one who was in WW2 should have an army, infact no one should have an army by that logic. Those families of a lot of dead soldiers would also be very ignorant as well. It's not like Japan is the only country to have an army commit atrocities in war, everyone was guilty of something in WW2.

yeah about that

Indeed, America commited many atrocities on all fronts, Fire bombing of Dresden, atomic bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, you get the point :P