Surprise: Most Black People Support Voter ID laws

I found this a bit surprising. According to Rasmussen, 64% of Black people support voter ID laws. Usually when people are opposed to these laws they argue that these laws are "voter suppression" aimed at black people (and young people and old people) who supposedly are less likely to have a photo ID. I do find that argument kind of surprising. I think most black people have a driver's license.

I wonder if they are also for spending time trying to fix problems that don't exist.

Another interesting stat from the same poll: 57% of blacks believe Officer Wilson should be found guilty of killing Michael Brown, while only 17% of whites and 24% of "other minorities" think so. Kind of seems like black people are being too quick to think Wilson is guilty here, probably the force of emotion.

Probably. I think everybody spends some time trying to fix problems that either don't exist or aren't really problems.

Voter fraud certainly exists.

On topic: I'm not sure what the big deal is. I can count on one hand the number of times someone hasn't given me an approved government ID when I have asked for one. And three out of five of them were Caucasians. I've never understood why this would be considered voter suppression.

Yeah it seems like it's fairly easy to get a photo ID.

Anybody willing to explain to me what the Voter ID law is?

I think it means that in order to vote you have to show a photo ID (driver's license, pistol permit, passport, etc.) so that the people at the booth know you are who you say you are. Do you have such laws in your country? The idea behind it is to prevent people from voting using someone else's name.

We certainly do. I'm assuming it's the same all over Europe but at least in Portugal and the Netherlands (both countries where I've lived) we get told in which booth to vote, we show our ID card, they scratch our name from the list and you're good to go. In Portugal we even have a voter number that determines where we can go to vote.

How do you guys control who voted and guarantee that the same people don't vote several times?

It's a measure to stop fraud. In order to cast your vote you would need a valid, government-issued photo ID. It's been a typical democrat vs republican issue for as long as I can remember. Democrats believe it's an effort at voter suppression, Republicans think it's necessary to ensure fair elections.

I recall the latest effort would have basically made it possible for anybody who didn't have a drivers license to get a government photo ID issued to them by the DMV. All they would have to show is proof of residency and citizenship.

I think this stems from the fact that each state and locality has a different setup for voting. I know in my county you have to register every time you move to a different area within the county(so they can give you a polling location to go to). I'm not sure how it works in other parts of my state.

@airshocker: So not all Americans have an ID card? We get ours in elementary school and everybody must have one.

No, usually the only IDs people get are from the DMV. We use that as a sort of universal ID. It's usually not a problem because, well, almost everyone in this country learns how to drive. The first time they wanted voter ID laws there wasn't a provision to ensure everybody got IDs. Now I think there is, and I actually think DMVs will issue government IDs that just don't say drivers license. But I'm not sure.

@airshocker: Oh ok; we receive ours at the age of 6 or 7 and even kids need to show ID in several situations. It seems weird to me that a child would have no way to prove his or her identity =)

It's a Republican scheme used to disenfranchise voters and get people who generally vote Democrat away from voting in general. It's all bullshit, voter "fraud" is less than 1% or some absurdly low number like that. Completely useless to waste time on it. Even funnier when this is coming from the supposed "fiscally responsible" party yet so hellbent on spending money on pointless laws and regulations.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/voter-id-laws-charts-maps

See what I mean?

There are people out there who are against people having to prove who they are in order to vote? lolwut?

Is this an American thing?

We're trying to keep the black man down.

Proof you can't polish a turd.

Care to expand?

Some absurdly low number is still not zero. Doesn't matter, it's still bad for it to go unchecked. Unless you are advocating bending the rules, to which I am not against doing for the sake of humanity and it's development. Cheating, lying, and playing unfairly are necessary in our evolutionary process, but soon it will be removed from our genes.

I don't pretend to know anything about how US politics and voting works but why would it stop people from voting? Is it that hard to get an ID? Also, are Democrats the ones who don't have an ID? Why? Is being a Democrat some sort of religion that prevents people from driving or travelling abroad? =P

I have to show two forms of ID to get a library card or open an account at the bank.

You have to provide ID to qualify for "obamacare".

You need ID to rent an apartment.

Why would anyone be against ID for voting? . . . unless they knew it would stop fraud.

That really isn't the reason....but it is their spin. LOL

Sure it's not 0, but it's still utterly useless to waste time and money on passing then enforcing a law that matters very little in the grand scheme of things. I'd be completely for it if it was a problem - but it's not, the data does not exist to suggest voter fraud is a problem. And even then, there are better ways to go about than IDs such as having voting tied directly to one's social security number. You've all been duped by the Republicans to believe this nonsense myth about voter fraud.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/07/09/7-papers-4-government-inquiries-2-news-investigations-and-1-court-ruling-proving-voter-fraud-is-mostly-a-myth/

"But there is overwhelming scholarly and legal consensus that voter fraud is vanishingly rare, and in fact non-existent at the levels imagined by voter ID proponents."

Personally I go to republicans when I want answers about voter ID laws.

http://www.care2.com/causes/5-republicans-who-are-getting-honest-about-voter-id-laws.html

I suppose Voter-Id is a problem because, unlike in Europe, you don't automaticaly have ID.

Also, last I heard it mentioned, voter fraud in America was very rare.

@Aljosa23: So a few papers and a single government ruling proving voter fraud is "mostly" a myth is enough for you. If it had any legs it would be a complete and full myth, would it not? So now there IS a problem... but you've already implied you think illegal votes aren't anything to worry about so long as it doesn't effect the "grand scheme" of things...

You're on a slippery slope, kiddo.

@Aljosa23: Also, there's no such thing as an incomplete myth. There's fact and there's fiction. Voter fraud is real and it IS a problem at ANY level of intensity.

"But there is overwhelming scholarly and legal consensus that voter fraud is vanishingly rare, and in fact non-existent at the levels imagined by voter ID proponents."

That up there is an example you used to prove your point when the statement itself is bogus. Something cannot be rare and non-existent at the same time... Come out your butt and actually read what your sources are making you believe.

Cause they're dumb.

Uh yeah, that's how it works. Voter fraud (at least, the kind of voter fraud that would be stopped with ID laws) is extremely rare, whereas instituting such voter laws would disenfranchise a LOT of people. You don't "fix" a small problem if it's gonna cause a substantially worse problem. That's like having your hand amputated because you've developed a wart.

And no, it's not really a problem because it doesn't happen in sufficient numbers to change the outcome of elections. In order to change the outcome of elections, you'd have to systematically get thousands (or even millions) of voters to illegally show up and vote under a false identity, and it's virtually impossible to so that without getting caught. This is precisely why this kind of fraud barely happens: there's no incentive to do it. A handful of fraudulent votes aren't gonna affect the election, which means that they get nothing out of it. So that's zero gain, at the risk of going to prison. This stuff doesn't happen enough to actually be a problem.

1/15 million people is pretty rare.

compared to 22 million voters who can't vote if there were ID laws.

Because it costs millions to put in place and maintain, while there were literally 10 cases of it in 2012. So it literally costs more than a million dollars to prevent, one case of voter fraud.

Seriously

Let's be honest, republicans are trying to stop Latinos Blacks and Asians from voting.

Sure voter fraud is a problem, as much of a problem as people worrying about spontaneous human combustion..

I never said it was a problem... I've said it happens; but the amount that it happens is so statistically insignificant that it might as well be 0 because it poses no harm to the fairness of an election. The word's "mostly" are used because there's not 0 cases of voter fraud, more like 10. It's not that hard to understand what I'm saying.

That statement makes perfect sense; the scholarly and legal communities believe it is rare but in actual fact it is non-existent. Again, there is nothing confusing about what I have said. If you're that interested I will gladly find plenty more sources dispelling the myth. But since you seem so dead set on believing Republican propaganda, I'd love to see evidence that it is a problem, because you have not provided any in this thread.

They are, actually. Most of the ID laws also had provisions that addressed legal voting citizens getting ID's including stuff like providing transportation credits, subsidies, community outreach, etc.

Anyways not sure where I stand on this issue. Frankly, even if voting fraud is only like 1%, I'd still imagine that's enough to swing a race if it's close? Beyond that, it just makes sense to me that proving you are who you say you are at the ballot makes sense. ID's are required for many of life's responsibilities...so why not voting? I understand the other side of the argument as well, and def think it's a situation that needs addressing. Disenfranchising groups of people isn't something to take lightly.

the thing is that it doesn't come anywhere near 1%. It's closer to .0004%.

Despite this I would actually support voter ID laws if we set up a system where everyone was automatically mailed an ID for free, but currently people want to make you go deal with the famously terrible DMV just so they can exercise the right to vote.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/20/1110832/-The-Fraud-of-Voter-Fraud

@Aljosa23: Okay, so it's like a .9999...=1 kinda thing when we all know it isn't really true? Kool, gotcha. Too small to catch, so just ignore it. Aight. It's too insignificant to matter, even though it could matter in the future. Why not start everyone out the gate right and have everyone required to have photo ID to prevent voter fraud, which you agree does happen. I say make it harder for criminals and people who shouldn't be voting to vote because they're values and morals aren't votes we want, right?

That may be true, I think it's a difficult thing to really know for sure. Regardless, they did try and alleviate some of the issues around people not having ID's which was my main point. I think it should be updated, as you suggest, though not sure it could all be done by mail? You need your picture and part of the "verification process" is that you are there in person with your supporting documents. At least, that's how I understand it.

Overall I agree that it's not as big of a deal as some make it out to be, but I still think it make sense from a policy perspective.

see my post above, it doesn't come anywhere near 1% or .9999%, it's really much much lower than that. Hell it's not even as high as .5%.

Out of the 197 million votes cast for federal candidates between 2002 and 2005, only 40 voters were indicted for voter fraud, according to a Department of Justice study outlined during a 2006 Congressional hearing. Only 26 of those cases, or about .00000013 percent of the votes cast, resulted in convictions or guilty pleas.

Hey look a source. Like Aljosa said, please feel free to add your own source.

I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to have a drivers licence.

Even if you don't have a car, it's handy to have the requirements to drive one.

so how did people vote in elections prior to new voter id laws being in place? they didn't need an id?

I don't need a source to prove people vote fraudulently, your sources tell me that by how they're written. It's a given that it happens on some level. And I'm willing to bet there are cases where fraudulent voters aren't accounted for. Obtaining a license as a citizen should be a problem for anyone. People or families without them could EASILY make next Saturday the Let's Get Our Photo IDs Day and there wouldn't be an issue, unless they shouldn't be voting.

I suppose some people can't afford it.

Which would cost millions, and money states and some people don't have....

You would need a source showing that it has ever been problematic for elections however. Aljosa's and my sources clearly show it be a non-issue, yet you staunchly stand by your claims of it being one.

So yeah you would need a source beyond how you personally feel about the subject if you want anyone to take you seriously.

You can vote without an ID card???
That's new.

how do you vote w/o an id? just give them your name and they believe you?