The Assault Weapon Myth

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deactivated-6127ced9bcba0

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#1 deactivated-6127ced9bcba0
Member since 2006 • 31700 Posts

The Assault Weapon Myth

"OVER the past two decades, the majority of Americans in a country deeply divided over gun control have coalesced behind a single proposition: The sale of assault weapons should be banned.

That idea was one of the pillars of the Obama administration’s plan to curb gun violence, and it remains popular with the public. In a poll last December, 59 percent of likely voters said they favor a ban.

But in the 10 years since the previous ban lapsed, even gun control advocates acknowledge a larger truth: The law that barred the sale of assault weapons from 1994 to 2004 made little difference.

It turns out that big, scary military rifles don’t kill the vast majority of the 11,000 Americans murdered with guns each year. Little handguns do.

In 2012, only 322 people were murdered with any kind of rifle, F.B.I. data shows.

The continuing focus on assault weapons stems from the media’s obsessive focus on mass shootings, which disproportionately involve weapons like the AR-15, a civilian version of the military M16 rifle. This, in turn, obscures some grim truths about who is really dying from gunshots.

Annually, 5,000 to 6,000 black men are murdered with guns. Black men amount to only 6 percent of the population. Yet of the 30 Americans on average shot to death each day, half are black males.

It was much the same in the early 1990s when Democrats created and then banned a category of guns they called “assault weapons.” America was then suffering from a spike in gun crime and it seemed like a problem threatening everyone. Gun murders each year had been climbing: 11,000, then 13,000, then 17,000.

Democrats decided to push for a ban of what seemed like the most dangerous guns in America: assault weapons, which were presented by the media as the gun of choice for drug dealers and criminals, and which many in law enforcement wanted to get off the streets.

This politically defined category of guns — a selection of rifles, shotguns and handguns with “military-style” features — only figured in about 2 percent of gun crimes nationwide before the ban.

Handguns were used in more than 80 percent of murders each year, but gun control advocates had failed to interest enough of the public in a handgun ban. Handguns were the weapons most likely to kill you, but they were associated by the public with self-defense. (In 2008, the Supreme Court said there was a constitutional right to keep a loaded handgun at home for self-defense.)

Banning sales of military-style weapons resonated with both legislators and the public: Civilians did not need to own guns designed for use in war zones.

On Sept. 13, 1994, President Bill Clinton signed an assault weapons ban into law. It barred the manufacture and sale of new guns with military features and magazines holding more than 10 rounds. But the law allowed those who already owned these guns — an estimated 1.5 million of them — to keep their weapons.

The policy proved costly. Mr. Clinton blamed the ban for Democratic losses in 1994. Crime fell, but when the ban expired, a detailed study found no proof that it had contributed to the decline.

The ban did reduce the number of assault weapons recovered by local police, to 1 percent from roughly 2 percent.

“Should it be renewed, the ban’s effects on gun violence are likely to be small at best and perhaps too small for reliable measurement,” a Department of Justice-funded evaluation concluded.

Still, the majority of Americans continued to support a ban on assault weapons.

One reason: The use of these weapons may be rare over all, but they’re used frequently in the gun violence that gets the most media coverage, mass shootings.

The criminologist James Alan Fox at Northeastern University estimates that there have been an average of 100 victims killed each year in mass shootings over the past three decades. That’s less than 1 percent of gun homicide victims.

But these acts of violence in schools and movie theaters have come to define the problem of gun violence in America.

Most Americans do not know that gun homicides have decreased by 49 percent since 1993 as violent crime also fell, though rates of gun homicide in the United States are still much higher than those in other developed nations. A Pew survey conducted after the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., found that 56 percent of Americans believed wrongly that the rate of gun crime was higher than it was 20 years ago.

Even as homicide rates have held steady or declined for most Americans over the last decade, for black men the rate has sometimes risen. But it took a handful of mass shootings in 2012 to put gun control back on Congress’s agenda.

AFTER Sandy Hook, President Obama introduced an initiative to reduce gun violence. He laid out a litany of tragedies: the children of Newtown, the moviegoers of Aurora, Colo. But he did not mention gun violence among black men.

To be fair, the president’s first legislative priority after Sandy Hook was universal background checks, a measure that might have shrunk the market for illegal guns used in many urban shootings. But Republicans in Congress killed that effort. The next proposal on his list was reinstating and “strengthening” bans on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. It also went nowhere.

“We spent a whole bunch of time and a whole bunch of political capital yelling and screaming about assault weapons,” Mayor Mitchell J. Landrieu of New Orleans said. He called it a “zero sum political fight about a symbolic weapon.”

Mr. Landrieu and Mayor Michael A. Nutter of Philadelphia are founders of Cities United, a network of mayors trying to prevent the deaths of young black men. “This is not just a gun issue, this is an unemployment issue, it’s a poverty issue, it’s a family issue, it’s a culture of violence issue,” Mr. Landrieu said.

More than 20 years of research funded by the Justice Department has found that programs to target high-risk people or places, rather than targeting certain kinds of guns, can reduce gun violence.

David M. Kennedy, the director of the Center for Crime Prevention and Control at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, argues that the issue of gun violence can seem enormous and intractable without first addressing poverty or drugs. A closer look at the social networks of neighborhoods most afflicted, he says, often shows that only a small number of men drive most of the violence. Identify them and change their behavior, and it’s possible to have an immediate impact.

Working with Professor Kennedy, and building on successes in other cities, New Orleans is now identifying the young men most at risk and intervening to help them get jobs. How well this strategy will work in the long term remains to be seen.

But it’s an approach based on an honest assessment of the real numbers."

-----

Are the liberals in OT finally ready to stop their crusade against "assault weapons"? Your gospel has spoken.

Also, I quoted the entire article only because I don't know if the NYT hides it's content behind a paywall for some people. So don't get pissy at the wall of text.

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MrGeezer

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#2 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts

Well, I have no disagreement with any of that.

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LostProphetFLCL

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#4 LostProphetFLCL
Member since 2006 • 18526 Posts

So what I got is that we need to start doing something about handguns.

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deactivated-6127ced9bcba0

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#5 deactivated-6127ced9bcba0
Member since 2006 • 31700 Posts

@LostProphetFLCL said:

So what I got is that we need to start doing something about handguns.

We do a great deal about handguns already. We can expand that to universal background checks, but what do we do about laws like the SAFE act? Those focus on assault weapons rather than what's actually the problem.

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Treflis

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#6 Treflis
Member since 2004 • 13757 Posts

Unless Americans start to demand bringing their guns on international flights, you can allow citizens to purchase Rocket launchers and whatnot for self defense as far as I'm concerned.

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GamingGod999

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#7 GamingGod999
Member since 2011 • 3135 Posts

So Americans need to ban handguns as well as assault rifles?

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SaintLeonidas

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#8 SaintLeonidas
Member since 2006 • 26735 Posts

tl;dr but I don't need an article to tell me that assault rifles are real.

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deactivated-6127ced9bcba0

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#9  Edited By deactivated-6127ced9bcba0
Member since 2006 • 31700 Posts

@SaintLeonidas said:

tl;dr but I don't need an article to tell me that assault rifles are real.

You apparently do need the article to tell you exactly what it's talking about.

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XaosII

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#10 XaosII
Member since 2003 • 16705 Posts

I think everyone knows that the gun issues tends to be somewhat black and white with most people either in favor of a wide range of gun and its usage, or limiting them almost entirely. I dont think the argument the article makes will do anything except to convince pro-gun people to be more pro-gun.

The issue is still guns. The bigger problem is dealing with the ridiculous number that are already in circulation. Attempting to control the flow, even if its just assault rifles, helps.... but its almost nothing. Its a little too late since the gun genie has been opened and cant be put back into the bottle.

But what should we do? Just allow assault weapons because of their statistically low usage? Pro gun people will say, yes. Anti-gun people will still say no.

I'm not entirely sure how many people sit on the "pro-gun, but not pro-assault gun" fence.

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#11  Edited By LordQuorthon
Member since 2008 • 5803 Posts

Jesus loved guns. That's why he wrote the second amendment.

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deactivated-6127ced9bcba0

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#12 deactivated-6127ced9bcba0
Member since 2006 • 31700 Posts

@XaosII said:

I think everyone knows that the gun issues tends to be somewhat black and white with most people either in favor of a wide range of gun and its usage, or limiting them almost entirely. I dont think the argument the article makes will do anything except to convince pro-gun people to be more pro-gun.

The issue is still guns. The bigger problem is dealing with the ridiculous number that are already in circulation. Attempting to control the flow, even if its just assault rifles, helps.... but its almost nothing. Its a little too late since the gun genie has been opened and cant be put back into the bottle.

But what should we do? Just allow assault weapons because of their statistically low usage? Pro gun people will say, yes. Anti-gun people will still say no.

I'm not entirely sure how many people sit on the "pro-gun, but not pro-assault gun" fence.

So what you're saying is despite proof that assault weapons aren't really the problem, we should still ban them? That makes a whole lot of sense.

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XaosII

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#13  Edited By XaosII
Member since 2003 • 16705 Posts

@airshocker said:

So what you're saying is despite proof that assault weapons aren't really the problem, we should still ban them? That makes a whole lot of sense.

No, what i'm saying is that this evidence will do nothing to move anyone progun or antigun from changing their view at all. Progun people would have always wanted access to assault rifles. Antigun people would have never wanted assault rifles - or any gun for that matter.

If someone believes that guns, of any type, are the problem, then i cant see how they would be convinced that a subset of guns, even if they only present a miniscule portion of the problem, should be allowed.

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speedfreak48t5p

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#14  Edited By speedfreak48t5p
Member since 2009 • 14489 Posts

@LordQuorthon said:

Jesus loved guns. That's why he wrote the second amendment.

Wacky Americans and their fairy tales.

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deactivated-6127ced9bcba0

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#15 deactivated-6127ced9bcba0
Member since 2006 • 31700 Posts

@XaosII said:

@airshocker said:

So what you're saying is despite proof that assault weapons aren't really the problem, we should still ban them? That makes a whole lot of sense.

No, what i'm saying is that this evidence will do nothing to move anyone progun or antigun from changing their view at all. Progun people would have always wanted access to assault rifles. Antigun people would have never wanted assault rifles - or any gun for that matter.

If someone believes that guns, of any type, are the problem, then i cant see how they would be convinced that a subset of guns, even if they only present a miniscule portion of the problem, should be allowed.

Well first of all, it's not really meant to change the views of the pro-gun crowd. So I'm not sure why you're even bringing that up. Secondly, while this might not change the views of the anti-gun crowd, it will further the case that those who are anti-gun are unreasonable when it comes to their views on assault weapons.

Nice try at damage control, though.

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XaosII

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#16 XaosII
Member since 2003 • 16705 Posts

@airshocker said:

Well first of all, it's not really meant to change the views of the pro-gun crowd. So I'm not sure why you're even bringing that up. Secondly, while this might not change the views of the anti-gun crowd, it will further the case that those who are anti-gun are unreasonable when it comes to their views on assault weapons.

Nice try at damage control, though.

Its not damage control, im just telling you the reality: This will do absolutely nothing to "stop their crusade against assault weapons?" These are your own words. If a liberal is against guns, please, tell me what is it about this that will change their opinions about unbanning assault weapons.

Most of them believe that ALL guns are the problems, why would they suddenly be open to the idea of unbanning a subset of guns when many of them feel that the bannings don't go far enough?

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#17 deactivated-6127ced9bcba0
Member since 2006 • 31700 Posts

@XaosII said:

@airshocker said:

Well first of all, it's not really meant to change the views of the pro-gun crowd. So I'm not sure why you're even bringing that up. Secondly, while this might not change the views of the anti-gun crowd, it will further the case that those who are anti-gun are unreasonable when it comes to their views on assault weapons.

Nice try at damage control, though.

Its not damage control, im just telling you the reality: This will do absolutely nothing to "stop their crusade against assault weapons?" These are your own words. If a liberal is against guns, please, tell me what is it about this that will change their opinions about unbanning assault weapons.

Most of them believe that ALL guns are the problems, why would they suddenly be open to the idea of unbanning a subset of guns when many of them feel that the bannings don't go far enough?

Rational people tend to realize when their actions to combat a problem aren't working, something else should be done. As this article just pointed out, banning assault weapons doesn't solve the issue. Why continue with the effort? Why keep laws in place that do ban them when it's being shown that something else is the issue?

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#18 XaosII
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@airshocker said:

Rational people tend to realize when their actions to combat a problem aren't working, something else should be done. As this article just pointed out, banning assault weapons doesn't solve the issue. Why continue with the effort? Why keep laws in place that do ban them when it's being shown that something else is the issue?

If the most liberal viewpoint is to ban all guns, and this law bans a subset of guns, then it would seem to still be in favor of their agenda. Appealing to a worse problem doesnt stop making assault guns being a real or perceived problem either.

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#19 deactivated-6127ced9bcba0
Member since 2006 • 31700 Posts

@XaosII said:

@airshocker said:

Rational people tend to realize when their actions to combat a problem aren't working, something else should be done. As this article just pointed out, banning assault weapons doesn't solve the issue. Why continue with the effort? Why keep laws in place that do ban them when it's being shown that something else is the issue?

If the most liberal viewpoint is to ban all guns, and this law bans a subset of guns, then it would seem to still be in favor of their agenda. Appealing to a worse problem doesnt stop making assault guns being a real or perceived problem either.

So liberals simply have an agenda when it comes to gun control. Their opinions aren't based in actual facts or reasons. That's what you're saying?

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#20 XaosII
Member since 2003 • 16705 Posts

@airshocker said:

So liberals simply have an agenda when it comes to gun control. Their opinions aren't based in actual facts or reasons. That's what you're saying?

I don't why you are being so deliberately obtuse, so i'll spell it out for you: any law that favors the banning of guns is still a win for most liberals. The efficacy of the assault weapons ban is hardly the issue.

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deactivated-6127ced9bcba0

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#21  Edited By deactivated-6127ced9bcba0
Member since 2006 • 31700 Posts

@XaosII said:

@airshocker said:

So liberals simply have an agenda when it comes to gun control. Their opinions aren't based in actual facts or reasons. That's what you're saying?

I don't why you are being so deliberately obtuse, so i'll spell it out for you: any law that favors the banning of guns is still a win for most liberals. The efficacy of the assault weapons ban is hardly the issue.

That's basically what I've said.

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Audacitron

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#22 Audacitron
Member since 2012 • 991 Posts

322 people a year, yeah, that's nothing. Let 'em die. We want our toys. You can tell their bereaved families they were statistically insignificant. Why should their right to life trump our right to toys?

More Statistics:

Number of Murders, United States, 2010: 12,996

Number of Murders by Firearms, US, 2010: 8,775

Number of Murders, Britain, 2011*: 638

(Since Britain’s population is 1/5 that of US, this is equivalent to 3,095 US murders)

Number of Murders by firearms, Britain, 2011*: 58

(equivalent to 290 US murders)

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ad1x2

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#23 ad1x2
Member since 2005 • 8430 Posts

I wish that we didn't need guns but when assholes want to break into my house it is nice to have one. I don't need an AR-15 to do it, though and would rather have a pistol. The issue is a lot of antigun activists want the Second Amendment repealed outright and banning those "scary" rifles aren't good enough for them. I empathize with some of their viewpoints considering that I was disturbed when Sandy Hook happened but an adsault weapons ban really wouldn't have helped there.

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#24 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts

@XaosII said:

@airshocker said:

So what you're saying is despite proof that assault weapons aren't really the problem, we should still ban them? That makes a whole lot of sense.

No, what i'm saying is that this evidence will do nothing to move anyone progun or antigun from changing their view at all. Progun people would have always wanted access to assault rifles. Antigun people would have never wanted assault rifles - or any gun for that matter.

If someone believes that guns, of any type, are the problem, then i cant see how they would be convinced that a subset of guns, even if they only present a miniscule portion of the problem, should be allowed.

The thing is, it's erroneous to assume that people must fall into the category of "pro-gun" or "anti-gun". I used to be for banning assault weapons, but after educating myself on the issue a little bit I had to conclude that an assault rifle ban accomplishes nothing in regards to reducing gun deaths. If it doesn't work, stop wasting time doing it. And that's coming from someone who's neither anti-gun nor pro-gun.

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#25 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

Colt AR-15's are illegal here in Canada (i.e. "prohibited" not just restricted) while the Tavor TAR-21 is completely legal.

Figure that one out. Same calibre, same capacity, same semi-auto fire rate, same effective range. But since one is an "assault weapon" that the government arbitrarily defines as "prohibited" it's illegal.

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#26 JangoWuzHere
Member since 2007 • 19032 Posts

Why can't everyone just use smart guns at this point?

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#27 bforrester420
Member since 2014 • 3480 Posts

The bigger the gun, the smaller the penis.

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#28  Edited By Planeforger
Member since 2004 • 20039 Posts

@airshocker: I see where you're coming from, but I've got to disagree with you.

The average person could read that article and come to the perfectly rational conclusion that handguns should be banned, in an effort to reduce the number of gun-related deaths in the country.

It wouldn't be logical for that person saying "ban handguns" to then say "unban assault weapons!", since if handguns ever were successfully banned, people would turn to assault weapons as their murder weapon of choice.

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#29 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36092 Posts

@airshocker: It's as you said handguns do the majority of the damage, yet if I said we should reduce the amount of available handguns in this country I have no doubt you would oppose that too.

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#30 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts
@Planeforger said:

@airshocker: I see where you're coming from, but I've got to disagree with you.

The average person could read that article and come to the perfectly rational conclusion that handguns should be banned, in an effort to reduce the number of gun-related deaths in the country.

It wouldn't be logical for that person saying "ban handguns" to then say "unban assault weapons!", since if handguns ever were successfully banned, people would turn to assault weapons as their murder weapon of choice.

The point is...as long as these kinds of assault weapons bans focus on primarily cosmetic features, they accomplish absolutely NOTHING in terms of reducing gun violence. Sure, the scary looking gun gets banned, but it's a total freaking waste if it's still legal for people to go out and buy a functionally equivalent gun that just doesn't look so scary. Assuming that reducing gun violence is the intended purpose of the ban, then it doesn't work. So, regardless of how "pro-gun" or "anti-gun" one is, what exactly is the point of pursuing legislation that doesn't work? Even for someone who is "anti-gun", it makes far more sense to stop wasting time with an assault weapons ban and focus on finding a solution that's actually going to work. Wasting time banning "assault weapons" accomplishes literally nothing if it's still legal for people to go out and buy a different rifle that's functionally equivalent.

And that's not a pro-gun thing or an anti-gun thing, that's just basic logic. When something doesn't work, stop doing it and try something else.

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#31 lamprey263
Member since 2006 • 45418 Posts

yeah, they've been going about it all wrong, they should ban handguns instead

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#32 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts

@lamprey263 said:

yeah, they've been going about it all wrong, they should ban handguns instead

Well, whether one is "pro-gun" or "anti-gun", I think it's pretty clear that banning handguns would probably have more effect (whether or not that effect is good or bad) than banning "assault weapons". Whether you're for or against a handgun ban, at least that's more likely to actually do SOMETHING.

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#34 Riverwolf007
Member since 2005 • 26023 Posts

hey, why let facts get in the way of action?

all these people that are a decade away from eating, drinking and smoking themselves to death will feel much safer with those guns that are responsible for 1% of gun deaths safely off the street.

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always_explicit

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#35 always_explicit
Member since 2007 • 3379 Posts

More facts that prove people get shot by all types of gun, yet the obvious solution is ridiculed by the majority of Americans. LOL

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#36 vl4d_l3nin
Member since 2013 • 3705 Posts

@Ackad said:

Let Illinois, also known as the "Nanny State" be the pinnacle example of why gun control doesn't work (Chicago murders,etc).

LOL

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#37  Edited By DaJuicyMan
Member since 2010 • 3557 Posts

@Audacitron said:

322 people a year, yeah, that's nothing. Let 'em die. We want our toys. You can tell their bereaved families they were statistically insignificant. Why should their right to life trump our right to toys?

There are people who feel this way who will relentlessly do what they can to rationalize it away to themselves.

I've seen posters in this thread do it before.

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#38 bforrester420
Member since 2014 • 3480 Posts

Assault weapons make up such an infinitesimally small percentage of the guns owned in the U.S. that it would make statistical sense that they're responsible for so few homicides when compared to handguns. Fucking duh.

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#39 SwagSurf
Member since 2009 • 3022 Posts

@vl4d_l3nin said:

@Ackad said:

Let Illinois, also known as the "Nanny State" be the pinnacle example of why gun control doesn't work (Chicago murders,etc).

LOL

That's not "LOL" worthy really. Chicago's (or still is) murder rate is at an all time high. I'll take that you don't live in the state of Illinois/city of Chicago.

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#40  Edited By ScottMescudi
Member since 2011 • 1550 Posts

@vl4d_l3nin said:

@Ackad said:

Let Illinois, also known as the "Nanny State" be the pinnacle example of why gun control doesn't work (Chicago murders,etc).

LOL

LOL indeed. Oh Liberals!

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#41 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

@Audacitron said:

322 people a year, yeah, that's nothing. Let 'em die. We want our toys. You can tell their bereaved families they were statistically insignificant. Why should their right to life trump our right to toys?

More Statistics:

Number of Murders, United States, 2010: 12,996

Number of Murders by Firearms, US, 2010: 8,775

Number of Murders, Britain, 2011*: 638

(Since Britain’s population is 1/5 that of US, this is equivalent to 3,095 US murders)

Number of Murders by firearms, Britain, 2011*: 58

(equivalent to 290 US murders)

How many of those gun deaths were with legally acquired guns? Banning guns does nothing for the illegal market. If anything, it would just make it bigger.

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Serraph105

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#42 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36092 Posts

@foxhound_fox said:

@Audacitron said:

322 people a year, yeah, that's nothing. Let 'em die. We want our toys. You can tell their bereaved families they were statistically insignificant. Why should their right to life trump our right to toys?

More Statistics:

Number of Murders, United States, 2010: 12,996

Number of Murders by Firearms, US, 2010: 8,775

Number of Murders, Britain, 2011*: 638

(Since Britain’s population is 1/5 that of US, this is equivalent to 3,095 US murders)

Number of Murders by firearms, Britain, 2011*: 58

(equivalent to 290 US murders)

How many of those gun deaths were with legally acquired guns? Banning guns does nothing for the illegal market. If anything, it would just make it bigger.

I can't speak for Audacitron, but personally I'm not interested in reducing death by illegal guns vs legal guns, instead I'm interested in reducing the number of death by guns. So long as that number is greatly reduced it doesn't matter much to me whether or not the remaining number is done by illegal or legally obtained guns.

Say if we managed to reduce the 11000 deaths per year to 2000, but the number of deaths by illegally guns obtained guns rose from 500-800 we would still be substantially better off.

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#43  Edited By foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

@Serraph105 said:

@foxhound_fox said:

@Audacitron said:

322 people a year, yeah, that's nothing. Let 'em die. We want our toys. You can tell their bereaved families they were statistically insignificant. Why should their right to life trump our right to toys?

More Statistics:

Number of Murders, United States, 2010: 12,996

Number of Murders by Firearms, US, 2010: 8,775

Number of Murders, Britain, 2011*: 638

(Since Britain’s population is 1/5 that of US, this is equivalent to 3,095 US murders)

Number of Murders by firearms, Britain, 2011*: 58

(equivalent to 290 US murders)

How many of those gun deaths were with legally acquired guns? Banning guns does nothing for the illegal market. If anything, it would just make it bigger.

I can't speak for Audacitron, but personally I'm not interested in reducing death by illegal guns vs legal guns, instead I'm interested in reducing the number of death by guns. So long as that number is greatly reduced it doesn't matter much to me whether or not the remaining number is done by illegal or legally obtained guns.

Say if we managed to reduce the 11000 deaths per year to 2000, but the number of deaths by illegally guns obtained guns rose from 500-800 we would still be substantially better off.

You missed my point. My point was that gun deaths happen whether the guns are legal or illegal, and taking away the legal guns would have no effect on the illegal guns or the gun deaths (as I would believe most gun related homicides are likely perpetrated with illegal guns, since legal ones can be traced to the owner incredibly easy).

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#44 Audacitron
Member since 2012 • 991 Posts

@foxhound_fox said:

@Audacitron said:

322 people a year, yeah, that's nothing. Let 'em die. We want our toys. You can tell their bereaved families they were statistically insignificant. Why should their right to life trump our right to toys?

More Statistics:

Number of Murders, United States, 2010: 12,996

Number of Murders by Firearms, US, 2010: 8,775

Number of Murders, Britain, 2011*: 638

(Since Britain’s population is 1/5 that of US, this is equivalent to 3,095 US murders)

Number of Murders by firearms, Britain, 2011*: 58

(equivalent to 290 US murders)

How many of those gun deaths were with legally acquired guns? Banning guns does nothing for the illegal market. If anything, it would just make it bigger.

that's irrelevant. The illegal market is fueled by the legal market.

My point in posting those statistics is that this supposedly insignificant number of people killed by assault rifles is still several times the total amount of murders by guns in the UK, and just over half the total murders there.

That's the difference between a society that made guns harder to get hold of, and a society that puts gun rights ahead of human rights.

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#45 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

@Audacitron said:

The illegal market is fueled by the legal market.

lolwut?

People who want guns to commit crimes aren't people who would likely be capable of acquiring one legally. And really, who in their right mind would spend $300-1000 to buy a handgun with a traceable serial number on it and wait up to two weeks to get it... when they could go out, spend $150 that night and get an untraceable weapon they can easily dispose of after committing the crime?

Switzerland has a MANDATORY gun ownership law, for all citizens to keep their fully automatic assault rifles maintained, in their homes, ready to be used at any time, and their gun-related murder rate isn't anywhere near that of the US. There is substantially more at play in the US besides the tools people use to kill each other.

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#46  Edited By Renevent42
Member since 2010 • 6654 Posts
@foxhound_fox said:

@Audacitron said:

The illegal market is fueled by the legal market.

lolwut?

People who want guns to commit crimes aren't people who would likely be capable of acquiring one legally. And really, who in their right mind would spend $300-1000 to buy a handgun with a traceable serial number on it and wait up to two weeks to get it... when they could go out, spend $150 that night and get an untraceable weapon they can easily dispose of after committing the crime?

Switzerland has a MANDATORY gun ownership law, for all citizens to keep their fully automatic assault rifles maintained, in their homes, ready to be used at any time, and their gun-related murder rate isn't anywhere near that of the US. There is substantially more at play in the US besides the tools people use to kill each other.

That's exactly right...there's a fairly large segment of society (poor, ignorant, angry, whatever) that likes to shoot people and the legality of a gun isn't going to magically fix the reason why these people want to kill each other.

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#47  Edited By deactivated-6127ced9bcba0
Member since 2006 • 31700 Posts

@Serraph105 said:

@airshocker: It's as you said handguns do the majority of the damage, yet if I said we should reduce the amount of available handguns in this country I have no doubt you would oppose that too.

Sorry about the delayed reply. I was banned.

I would oppose any attempts to lower the amount of legal handguns in this country.

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#48 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36092 Posts

@airshocker said:

@Serraph105 said:

@airshocker: It's as you said handguns do the majority of the damage, yet if I said we should reduce the amount of available handguns in this country I have no doubt you would oppose that too.

Sorry about the delayed reply. I was banned.

I would oppose any attempts to lower the amount of legal handguns in this country.

Sorry to hear you were banned.

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deactivated-6127ced9bcba0

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#49 deactivated-6127ced9bcba0
Member since 2006 • 31700 Posts

@Serraph105 said:

@airshocker said:

@Serraph105 said:

@airshocker: It's as you said handguns do the majority of the damage, yet if I said we should reduce the amount of available handguns in this country I have no doubt you would oppose that too.

Sorry about the delayed reply. I was banned.

I would oppose any attempts to lower the amount of legal handguns in this country.

Sorry to hear you were banned.

Ah well, what are you gonna' do when the mods are more concerned with banning regular users instead of ban dodgers?

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#50  Edited By Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36092 Posts

@airshocker said:

@Serraph105 said:

@airshocker said:

@Serraph105 said:

@airshocker: It's as you said handguns do the majority of the damage, yet if I said we should reduce the amount of available handguns in this country I have no doubt you would oppose that too.

Sorry about the delayed reply. I was banned.

I would oppose any attempts to lower the amount of legal handguns in this country.

Sorry to hear you were banned.

Ah well, what are you gonna' do when the mods are more concerned with banning regular users instead of ban dodgers?

set up an alternate account I suppose.