the flaw in Christianity that killed my faith

im curious what you religious folks will think of this. this isnt the only thing that turned me away from christianity, but it was one of the first steps that opened my eyes to how the rules, theology, philosophy, and principles of the bible are nonsensical and illogical.

I remember whenever I would ask my parents why humans have to be flawed and have to suffer, they always loved to quote a verse where John says something to the effect of

"what right does the pot have to say to the potter 'why did you make me like this?'"

but then a thought dawned on me one day. and this is my response to that verse

"but what right does the potter have to castigate (blame) the pot for how he, himself, made it?"

now, an apologist could make the rebuttal

"well, a potter has a right to throw his creation into the furnace"

to that I would say

"yes, but a potter does that because he makes mistakes in his creations. a potter is imperfect. god isnt supposed to be imperfect, right? he is supposed to be all powerful and perfect in every way. so, logically, he must be making these mistakes on purpose, just to have an excuse to burn them. Doesnt that just make him capricious and cruel? adding to that, he doesnt simply destroy them, but instead forces them to suffer for all eternity. that is totally unnecessary, and if thats not enough, he blames it all on them them, as if all this is really their fault, as if he really thinks they chose to be created this way. its not right and apart from that, it makes no sense why he would be motivated to do that."

this line of thinking is what really helped free me from Christianity. maybe it will free you too.

It seems more to me that the pot is blaming the potter for damage done to it by the cupboard.Theokhoth

well if you are still talking about the omniscient being who created everything, as described in the bible, than the analogy demands that this potter also carved and put together the cabinet (he is a carpenter too apparently). either way, he is a shoddy craftsman

but regardless, the cabinet didnt create the furnace of torture did it?

so what are you going to blame imperfection on next? the other pots? apparently the potter is in the practice of making self destructive, volatile pottery?

no matter what, the fault will have to fall on the creator of these things.

I considered giving various philosophical and theological arguments to rebuke your statement but I'll simply respond by referencing the book of Job.

Within the book of Job he receives much hardship in his life that is not a result of his own sin and seemed to have been without cause. His initial response was to simply say in Job 1:21, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised."

However, he would eventually come to the point of demanding that God give reason for his sufferings. After realizing the greatness and majesty of God at God's mere appearance, Job responds as follows in Job 42:2-6:

I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted. You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?' Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.' My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.

There comes a point when we must realize who is God. As a hint, it is not us.

You lost faith because an imperfect creation quoted an imperfect creation who tried to make a reference to a perfect entity by using an imperfect creation's creation as an example.

Cool story, but I will however keep my faith.

I essentially came to the realization that I no longer required the existence of a higher power in my life to continue living a good and moral life. I've acknowledged that there were flaws in Christianity (Catholicism in particular in my case) years before I completely stopped believing.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]It seems more to me that the pot is blaming the potter for damage done to it by the cupboard.arbitor365

well if you are still talking about the omniscient being who created everything, as described in the bible, than the analogy demands that this potter also carved and put together the cabinet (he is a carpenter too apparently). either way, he is a shoddy craftsman

but regardless, the cabinet didnt create the furnace of torture did it?

so what are you going to blame imperfection on next? the other pots? apparently the potter is in the practice of making self destructive, volatile pottery?

no matter what, the fault will have to fall on the creator of these things.

God isn't really blaming anyone per say. He's testing us to make us better people. Mario2007

I will be sure to remember how much character I am building when I am

burning in eternal torment with demons knawing on my toes and satan jamming a pitchfork into my rear and shoving cacti in my nostrils

im kidding of course, seeing as there is no hell. but anyway, I have to say something. if putting mankind through all of these horrors on this planet just to burn the vast majority of us forever in torment is his idea of "teaching us a lesson," maybe he should be taught a few lessons.

I agree with most of what has already been posted by others. Also, why would you want someone to lose their faith? You enjoy being an evangelical athiest? What's the point.

And the light blue font is pretty rough...

[QUOTE="Mario2007"]God isn't really blaming anyone per say. He's testing us to make us better people. arbitor365

I will be sure to remember how much character I am building when I am

burning in eternal torment with demons knawing on my toes and satan jamming a pitchfork into my rear and shoving cacti in my nostrils

im kidding of course, seeing as there is no hell. but anyway, I have to say something. if putting mankind through all of these horrors on this planet just to burn the vast majority of us forever in torment is his idea of "teaching us a lesson," maybe he should be taught a few lessons.

I considered giving various philosophical and theological arguments to rebuke your statement but I'll simply respond by referencing the book of Job.

Within the book of Job he receives much hardship in his life that is not a result of his own sin and seemed to have been without cause. His initial response was to simply say in Job 1:21, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised."

However, he would eventually come to the point of demanding that God give reason for his sufferings. After realizing the greatness and majesty of God at God's mere appearance, Job responds as follows in Job 42:2-6:

I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted. You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?' Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.' My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.

There comes a point when we must realize who is God. As a hint, it is not us.

mindstorm

I agree with this gentleman. I'm always amazed when someone shakes his fist at God.

You're asking for a perfect world but don't know what perfection is. Theokhoth

well I can gather a guess that a perfect world would have a bit less children being born with aids.

but really im not asking for a perfect world. Im severely questioning the validity of this widely claimed "perfect deity."

[QUOTE="arbitor365"]

[QUOTE="Mario2007"]God isn't really blaming anyone per say. He's testing us to make us better people. Theokhoth

I will be sure to remember how much character I am building when I am

burning in eternal torment with demons knawing on my toes and satan jamming a pitchfork into my rear and shoving cacti in my nostrils

im kidding of course, seeing as there is no hell. but anyway, I have to say something. if putting mankind through all of these horrors on this planet just to burn the vast majority of us forever in torment is his idea of "teaching us a lesson," maybe he should be taught a few lessons.

But hey, that's why I tell Christians to repent more than I tell non-Christians. :P

[QUOTE="arbitor365"]

[QUOTE="Mario2007"]God isn't really blaming anyone per say. He's testing us to make us better people. Theokhoth

I will be sure to remember how much character I am building when I am

burning in eternal torment with demons knawing on my toes and satan jamming a pitchfork into my rear and shoving cacti in my nostrils

im kidding of course, seeing as there is no hell. but anyway, I have to say something. if putting mankind through all of these horrors on this planet just to burn the vast majority of us forever in torment is his idea of "teaching us a lesson," maybe he should be taught a few lessons.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"] You're asking for a perfect world but don't know what perfection is. arbitor365

well I can gather a guess that a perfect world would have a bit less children being born with aids.

but really im not asking for a perfect world. Im severely questioning the value of this widely claimed "perfect deity."

I tend to think about life instictually, but at the same time scientifically so I don't start blowing hot air.

My thoughts:

We're all a part of the universe, which has changed and grown in different ways. Just because something is perfect in every way doesn't mean it has to make something exactly the same. The story goes that God made man in His image. An image isn't a clone or copy. It's an interpretation. A painting of a tree doesn't produce Oxygen or photosynthesize.

With that in mind, I'd say that because man is a part of a universe which cannot be created or destroyed, in a way, we are indeed made in God's image.

What I'm trying to figure out is is whether or not the pot had handles.

Agreed. Also, you have the choice to believe in Jesus and avoid it altogether whether or not it exists.fbstar57

you still cant ignore the concept.

the entire deal being made is like if your dad walked into your room and said

"if you clean your room by the end of the week, I am going to buy you a new car and we will go out for ice cream. but if you dont, Im going to smash your knee caps and light you on fire."

it is messed up, no matter how good one side of the deal is.

What I'm trying to figure out is is whether or not the pot had handles.

poptart

[QUOTE="fbstar57"] Agreed. Also, you have the choice to believe in Jesus and avoid it altogether whether or not it exists.arbitor365

you still cant ignore the concept.

the entire deal being made is like if your dad walked into your room and said

"if you clean your room by the end of the week, I am going to buy you a new car and we will go out for ice cream. but if you dont, Im going to smash your knee caps and light you on fire."

it is messed up, no matter how good one side of the deal is.

[QUOTE="arbitor365"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"] You're asking for a perfect world but don't know what perfection is. Theokhoth

well I can gather a guess that a perfect world would have a bit less children being born with aids.

but really im not asking for a perfect world. Im severely questioning the value of this widely claimed "perfect deity."

not really. im just giving a single little example of how horrendously imperfect this world is, in case some people let it slip their minds.

[QUOTE="poptart"]

What I'm trying to figure out is is whether or not the pot had handles.

cd_rom

But why is the potter sad :(

Oh I'm so confused. I wish I could just give that potter a big hug *squeeze* and tell him his pots are okay.

[QUOTE="cd_rom"][QUOTE="poptart"]

What I'm trying to figure out is is whether or not the pot had handles.

poptart

But why is the potter sad :(

Oh I'm so confused. I wish I could just give that potter a big hug *squeeze* and tell him his pots are okay.

Whenever I hear, "He can do with His creation as He wishes" I wonder.....do people that preach and believe that also hold the position that a parent can abuse, torture, and do anything they wish to their children? Be kind of hypocritical if not...

Whenever I hear, "He can do with His creation as He wishes" I wonder.....do people that preach and believe that also hold the position that a parent can abuse, torture, and do anything they wish to their children? Be kind of hypocritical if not...

Rekunta

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="arbitor365"]

well I can gather a guess that a perfect world would have a bit less children being born with aids.

but really im not asking for a perfect world. Im severely questioning the value of this widely claimed "perfect deity."

arbitor365

not really. im just giving a single little example of how horrendously imperfect this world is, in case some people let it slip their minds.

Of course not. That's stupid.cd_rom

But why is the potter sad :(

Oh I'm so confused. I wish I could just give that potter a big hug *squeeze* and tell him his pots are okay.

[QUOTE="arbitor365"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"] Okay. Let's say AIDs didn't exist or that children were never born with it. Would you be satisfied?Theokhoth

not really. im just giving a single little example of how horrendously imperfect this world is, in case some people let it slip their minds.

[QUOTE="poptart"]

[QUOTE="cd_rom"] Of course not. That's stupid.cd_rom

But why is the potter sad :(

Oh I'm so confused. I wish I could just give that potter a big hug *squeeze* and tell him his pots are okay.

Sadly not, but I have read the books

EDIT - beaten to it above :P

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="arbitor365"]

not really. im just giving a single little example of how horrendously imperfect this world is, in case some people let it slip their minds.

cd_rom

Does not approve.

Is this the same God that tells us that killing disobedient kids is A-Okay and likes to torture the innocent just because they don't believe in him?

I don't like the concept of Hell at all. But I don't believe in it, so it really doesn't bother me. I don't believe Hell is real and I don't believe the concept of Hell is consistent with the idea of a benevolent deity. Theokhoth

its a nice idea to phase out the concept of hell. it is possible that the concept of hell was added into the bible later by the clergy. but realistically, there is a greater chance that it wasnt a conspiracy and that jesus really did say this stuff about hell and really believed it. There isnt any solid evidence to the contrary. there arent any surviving versions of the gospels that were originally written without hell. so youre kinda shooting in the dark with this idea.

it almost seems like youre simply omitting things that dont jive with your personal feelings (which all christians do to verying extents). since Christianity's founding, pretty much everyone up until the last few centuries (and even now, still the vast vast vast majority) believed in heaven and hell. if there is no hell, than why the **** was jesus hanging on that cross to begin with? it doesnt make sense. youre too logical for this stuff.

im curious what you religious folks will think of this. this isnt the only thing that turned me away from christianity, but it was one of the first steps that opened my eyes to how the rules, theology, philosophy, and principles of the bible are nonsensical and illogical.

I remember whenever I would ask my parents why humans have to be flawed and have to suffer, they always loved to quote a verse where John says something to the effect of

"what right does the pot have to say to the potter 'why did you make me like this?'"

but then a thought dawned on me one day. and this is my response to that verse

"but what right does the potter have to castigate (blame) the pot for how he, himself, made it?"

now, an apologist could make the rebuttal

"well, a potter has a right to throw his creation into the furnace"

to that I would say

"yes, but a potter does that because he makes mistakes in his creations. a potter is imperfect. god isnt supposed to be imperfect, right? he is supposed to be all powerful and perfect in every way. so, logically, he must be making these mistakes on purpose, just to have an excuse to burn them. Doesnt that just make him capricious and cruel? adding to that, he doesnt simply destroy them, but instead forces them to suffer for all eternity. that is totally unnecessary, and if thats not enough, he blames it all on them them, as if all this is really their fault, as if he really thinks they chose to be created this way. its not right and apart from that, it makes no sense why he would be motivated to do that."

this line of thinking is what really helped free me from Christianity. maybe it will free you too.

arbitor365

It's sort of funny how, the second that people start doubting their faith, they suddenly think that they've become wise and enlightened and that they need to save the world by making everyone think like them.

Yes, no Christian has ever heard this argument ever before. :roll:

[QUOTE="arbitor365"]

im curious what you religious folks will think of this. this isnt the only thing that turned me away from christianity, but it was one of the first steps that opened my eyes to how the rules, theology, philosophy, and principles of the bible are nonsensical and illogical.

I remember whenever I would ask my parents why humans have to be flawed and have to suffer, they always loved to quote a verse where John says something to the effect of

"what right does the pot have to say to the potter 'why did you make me like this?'"

but then a thought dawned on me one day. and this is my response to that verse

"but what right does the potter have to castigate (blame) the pot for how he, himself, made it?"

now, an apologist could make the rebuttal

"well, a potter has a right to throw his creation into the furnace"

to that I would say

"yes, but a potter does that because he makes mistakes in his creations. a potter is imperfect. god isnt supposed to be imperfect, right? he is supposed to be all powerful and perfect in every way. so, logically, he must be making these mistakes on purpose, just to have an excuse to burn them. Doesnt that just make him capricious and cruel? adding to that, he doesnt simply destroy them, but instead forces them to suffer for all eternity. that is totally unnecessary, and if thats not enough, he blames it all on them them, as if all this is really their fault, as if he really thinks they chose to be created this way. its not right and apart from that, it makes no sense why he would be motivated to do that."

this line of thinking is what really helped free me from Christianity. maybe it will free you too.

MrGeezer

It's sort of funny how, the second that people start doubting their faith, they suddenly think that they've become wise and enlightened and that they need to save the world by making everyone think like them.

Yes, no Christian has ever heard this argument ever before. :roll:

True, however I'm not sure it's ever been presented as 'The Parable of the Potter' before.

[QUOTE="cd_rom"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"] Okay. Nobody argues that the world is horrendously imperfect. Theokhoth

Does not approve.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"] I don't like the concept of Hell at all. But I don't believe in it, so it really doesn't bother me. I don't believe Hell is real and I don't believe the concept of Hell is consistent with the idea of a benevolent deity. arbitor365

its a nice idea to phase out the concept of hell. it is possible that the concept of hell was added into the bible later by the clergy. but realistically, there is a greater chance that it wasnt a conspiracy and that jesus really did say this stuff about hell and really believed it. There isnt any solid evidence to the contrary. there arent any surviving versions of the gospels that were originally written without hell. so youre kinda shooting in the dark with this idea.

it almost seems like youre simply omitting things that dont jive with your personal feelings (which all christians do to verying extents). since Christianity's founding, pretty much everyone up until the last few centuries (and even now, still the vast vast vast majority) believed in heaven and hell. if there is no hell, than why the **** was jesus hanging on that cross to begin with? it doesnt make sense. youre too logical for this stuff.

True, however I'm not sure it's ever been presented as 'The Parable of the Potter' before.

poptart

I've made a similar argument before, but was more about robots instead of pots.

I'm just saying...pots are sort of boring. But if you want to keep people's interest, you're better off talking about robots.

I really don't get religion. In fact, I'd say religion is one of humanity's biggest blunders.

Providing we don't kill ourselves in the next 100-200 years, I think religion will continually lose ground to science.

To me, God not existing is kind of like a common fact. We all know the planet is round (excluding that ****ed up message board), and it just makes sense.

if there is no hell, than why the **** was jesus hanging on that cross to begin with?arbitor365

Rotten luck?

My beliefs and my feelings are intertwined. Don't get me wrong; I believe an afterlife separate from Heaven exists. I just don't believe it's Hell (I believe Hell, if it is real, is reserved for the devil and his angels). Nor do I believe it's permanent. That's why Jesus was up there in the first place. But Jesus also said that "The kingdom of God is within you," so perhaps all Jesus was trying to do was get people to pick themselves up out of their shoddy state of existence and make the Earth a slightly less imperfect place; more. . .heavenly, if you will. I dunno. I wasn't there. All I do know is that I am human, I want to be happy, and there are seven billion other creatures on Earth exactly like me.Theokhoth

your beleifs seem so detached from what the bible actually states, that you might as well be a deist

[QUOTE="poptart"]

True, however I'm not sure it's ever been presented as 'The Parable of the Potter' before.

MrGeezer

I've made a similar argument before, but was more about robots instead of pots.

I'm just saying...pots are sort of boring. But if you want to keep people's interest, you're better off talking about robots.

Robots vs Pots - I can see an enthrallling thread coming... :P

Actually I'll give my vote to robots - robots are hands down better than pots