The ideals of modern feminism vs the goals

So I was having a chat about this the other day with a friend who was saying that she did not identify with modern feminism because she chooses to rely on her husband for certain things in the same way he relies on her for other things. Because of this she felt that she was not a modern day feminist because her roles are more traditional of a housewife. My response was that as long as she chose to do these things because she wanted it that she was very much in line with the ideals of modern feminism.

With this thread I would like to parse out the ideals vs the goals of what feminists today would like to achieve. For example my understanding of today's feminist ideals really boils down to women getting to do what they want to do in their lives (regardless of the choice) without being forced out simply due to their gender. The other main idea is having an equal say as their partner in their relationship at home or at work.

I think the goals of feminism consist of things that can be tied back to those two ideals. Equal pay is a goal that ties back into equality at home and in the work place. Getting to do any job you wish (obviously being qualified is necessary) ties back into the ideal that a woman gets to choose what to do with her life and shouldn't be held back solely because of her gender.

What do you guys think? Am I missing anything? Do you consider my view of modern day feminism as correct or totally off?

It's about women getting unwarranted advantages because they are women. Or not having to deal with some uncomfortable parts of life. Let men pay for it, mix it up with distortion and hypocracy.

It's about women being just as strong as men but needing to be treated like tender little snowflakes because they are not as strong as men.

Equal rights are important. Beyond that I don't care.

Women rights are important, but so are men's rights.

lol this is going to be an interesting thread.............

Yeah I agree, it'll be a dumb thread.

Yeah I'm aware, but I think it can potentially bring to light misunderstandings of the subject of feminism. Either my misunderstandings or others, but if helps anyone to better understand it I will consider the thread a success.

What examples can you give that makes you believe this.

No misunderstanding. SJW's have taken a legit concern and made it into a special snowflake shit show. Old school feminism is dead. What you have left is a bunch of people who think that life is one giant liberal arts campus.

****'em.

You're understanding of the ideals of modern feminism are correct. This whole subject has been muddied up by millions of stupid people on both sides of the argument screaming very loudly. Truth is, most people are feminists, they just don't know it.

Incoming beta-male alt-right posters in 3.....2.....1....

*sigh* Examples please.

What happened to feminism is what happens when every dragon is slain for any organisation. The loss of relevance forces it to create its own monsters to slay or it disappears. For feminism to survive it has to have an enemy. If that enemy does not exist it has to be created. Women are not stupid, they see exactly what is going on and that is why the vast majority of women are loathe to identify as a feminist.

You heard it here first from Riverwolf007, the official spokesperson for gender relations apparently, that women have achieved equality and everything after is just made up!

Excuse me while I tell my girlfriend that, I'm sure she will be pleased of this latest development. What other nuggets of wisdom do you have to bestow upon us?

@perfect_blue: So you have an example of discrimination against women that is legal to practice anyplace in western civilisation? (not counting canada where the pm can give a diversity speech at a place the women mp's that attended with him were not allowed to stand.)

Enjoy: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/ng-interactive/2014/feb/04/womens-rights-country-by-country-interactive

LOL the Guardian, that's full of articles from crazy feminist that believe in the White Patriarchy devil

@perfect_blue: I did enjoy that since it pretty much completly illustrated exactly what I said.

100% protection of women's rights across western civilisation.

I guess if you ignore all those red X's, sure lol.

Yup.

I want women to have the same rights as men, but no more.

Thankfully, in western societies that is already the case.

@perfect_blue: It was 100% across all the places feminists bitch about the most so I don't see what you are talking about. I said western civilisation which leaves out basically everyplace that failed on the map. Sub-sahara Africa, Asia and the Arab states are not western civilization.

"All women are beautiful"-nonsense, equal wage for "equal work", no tax on female hygiene products,

I definitely haven't heard about that last one (perhaps you could help me find examples of people pushing for removing said tax). I think research goes against your ideas of equal wage for equal work, but perhaps we will just have to agree to disagree on that one.

Does "all women are beautiful" really fall into modern feminism ideals? Or is it just push back by some women when they are referred to in derogatory terms? Maybe I just don't see that as directly part of the movement, but simply as a few prominent women who happen to be feminists making noise about it. Anyone else want to way in on this aspect?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/08/the-tampon-tax-explained/?utm_term=.c26d7e6dbb87

No, research certainly does not go against my ideas.

I don't know, I see it made by feminists in social media all the time, what modern feminism is is very hard to pinpoint exactly, especially since they don't seem to know it themselves. But since equality is already achieved, and more, I assume it's a bunch of lazy weak women getting together to get free stuff and be able to live in a protected bubble.

The goals of feminism are very noble but the the execution of said goals was and is disastrous , the only people who have benefited from feminism are middle class hetero-white woman in the western world. Everyone else is irrelevant, while the feminist snowflakes are fainting at sexist air condition and eye rape Muslim/African/Indian have very little freedom.

That's kinda the point of this thread. I have to ask if you mean to come across as inflammatory as you do when you call people lazy and weak, and if so who do you expect to win over beyond the people who already agree with you?

I read the article you provided on tax removal of feminine hygiene products, and I actually think it's a fair point about women getting taxed on products they don't really have a choice in buying. It brings about the problem of people being taxed for other things that are often needed like gasoline and internet, but I can't think of many other products like tampons that are as uniformly unavoidable as tampons that can be obtained tax free, including those two examples I just gave. Because of this I have to ask what your logical problem is with wanting a tax removal on feminine hygiene products given the context of the reasons given.

EDIT I do suppose toilet paper falls under that same category, but then I would probably defer to the argument that products like that have a good reason to to not be subject to tax.

It certainly does, where have you been living? Under a rock? Feminist today believe in a super natural being called the White Patriarchy, which suppresses women of all kind and never put them into good paying jobs or let them do whatever they want. Just watch the video below and you'll see what today's feminist are

@FireEmblem_Man: I really dislike those videos. I haven't seen all of it, but I saw that she mentioned suicide. Norway does it quite well when it comes to equal rights and equality between men and women. Recently I actually read an article about how men and women who are doing the conscription/a somewhat mandatory one year in the military. By reading it you would think women are actually doing it far better in the military than men. Never was it mentioned that for women to get in, they have to want it. If they don't want to, they don't have to. For men it is not like that.

Anyway back to suicide. Ladies, get your act together and start killing yourself. Men far outnumber you in actual suicides. Oh and start going bankrupt because you start up new companies that fail as well.

Those videos gives feminism a bad name these days I think.

Please, western feminists. Tell me more about your heartrending struggles. Did someone not pay for your birth control? Did you go into social work with your gender studies degree and not make enough money? Did someone you shot in a video game call you names? Is the correct shade of blue for your hair not carried at the patriarchal CVS? Gee, That's that's super tough.

There are obvious problems in the U.S. But most of the outrage comes from a pretty specific age, economic, education and racial group. I'm a minority myself and have been through some things on my way to where I am. But at some point I start to wonder if people are actually trying to make change or are they trying to place blame? I have far too many family members and friends that place all of their blame on racist white America. I listen to a lot of talk radio that covers both sides of the political spectrum. One topic that always entertains is when a feminist gets on and talks about taking a stand against Trumps sexist policies. When asked which policies they are referring to the comedy ensues. Yes the man is a bigot and has said plenty of horrific things. But nothing he has run on or any of the policies he has mentioned are sexist. And the "racist" portions are only based on the legality of ones citizenship. It's almost as if his winning the election has given these entitled millennials a platform they wouldn't have otherwise.

How many people have examples of actually being refused education or employment because of race, religion, sexual orientation etc? There are examples everywhere of underachieving youth placing blame on their shortcomings in life. One example is of a Detroit teen who had a 3.6 GPA and a 23 on the SAT crying foul at her rejection to the University of Michigan. A school with an average admission GPA of 3.85 and an average SAT score of 29. Yet she blames her race and gender on the rejection. This got national media attention because of race and gender of course. Don't get me started on "Occupy Wall Street."

Yeah, pretty much. Do whatever the hell you want. Be a housewife if that's what you want to do, so long as the reason you are doing it is because it's what you and your partner mutually decide as opposed to some bullshit gender role expectation.

My wife stays at home and takes care of our two boys while I work. Not because "she's the wife", but because she chose a much nobler profession than I did and she became a school teacher. But since one of the most important jobs in the US is also one of the worst paid jobs in the US, I make more than four times what she made so when one of us had to give up work to take care of the kids it made sense that it be her. Had it been the other way around, I'd be home with the kids. Either way it's equal, because we are two parts of a team. The money I get from my job is our money and we make all our decisions as a team.

-Byshop

I think the problem is that the radicals have taken over the proverbial mic. This means the reasonable to lunacy ratio has greatly shifted for the worse. I suppose this may actually just be natural. As you approach your goal, the reasonable and thus more satisfied people will go quiet, while the unreasonable lunatics remain yelling through their megaphones. So, naturally the ratio of reasonables to lunatics actually speaking up shifts in favor steadily to the lunatics. Problem is, people are starting to think the lunatics have a point because they don't know their lunatics.

You asked what I think, this is what I think that MODERN feminism ultimately comes down to. Laziness and weakness.

So what if they have no choice in buying it? Why does that matter? Why should a COMPLETE tax exception be made for this? A lot of things are necessary, we still pay our tax for it. But, according to modern feminism, women can't pay for their things, so men has to come in and do it (cause that's the effect).

That's good! Raising children is much more of an important role than working all day. Kids need a lot of love an attention and I applaud your wife for her sacrifices and for you to keep the bread on the table. Wish a lot of today's modern feminist see that women have choices to do what they want to do and not be shamed for choosing to stay home and raise the kids.

@horgen: Yeah, those videos by Zarna Joshi scare me a lot. It's like she really wants to create an army to destroy a non-existing issue. She has taken over the mic to REAL feminist like Based Mom, Christina Hoff Sommers and Goddess Camille Paglia. It's like if you don't follow the tribe, you're automatically labelled sexist, a bigot, and a misogynist.

Well, we are fortunate that my job pays well enough to cover all of the expenses for a family of four. Not every family has that luxury. The issue that feminism has with this is the idea that this is expected of the woman and sexism like that cuts both ways. If my wife had the higher paying job (as was the case with my parents) then I'd happily be the one spending the time at home taking care of the kids. The same idea that the man has to be the "bread winner" is the same idea that the man is less of a man if he's the one at home taking care of the kids.

-Byshop

3rd wave feminism is about representation over the male counterpart. It's no longer about equal rights, but about being advantageous to the opposite gender.

Goals consist of:

• Affirmative Action for Females
• Equity over Equality
• Be positioned in jobs often held by men
• To be represented in all fields, including fields that are predominately male
• To acquire and normalize/inhibit the habits of males. Example: Manspreading, mansplaining
• Getting rid of a hierarchy and replacing it with an ideal that fits their own.

Conclusion: Feminism is bullshit in the West.

After reading Limbaugh's books, I'm under the impression that the anti-feminism crowd is at least as full of BS as the modern feminism crowd is.

That being said, I'm sure there are some nuts out there in the feminism movement as well. I'm not sure how much it's played up to perpetuate the stereotype of the "feminazis" like some other stereotypes are, though (such as the millennial stereotype to name a more recent one).

The feminists I've personally met and conversed with were pretty pleasant and mostly concerned with a pet policy or two - equal pay (I don't think this is the issue they think it is, but I believe they think it's genuine), maternity leave, cultural objectification, etc.)

@mattbbpl: You read books by limbaugh?

Absolutely. I read books by a lot of people - particularly those I disagree with.

I'll admit Limbaugh was a bit of a disappointment. People like Charles Murray or Thomas Sowell at least give the pretense of of looking at data and drawing conclusions from it even if their logic is designed to work from their predetermined conclusion backwards. Limbaugh trends more along the lines of assuming that his inherently, obviously correct and then just ranting about how people don't agree with him.

Some of the chapters he wrote on topics like homosexuality and feminism rather starkly illustrate his ridiculousness due to the benefit of being able to look at them through the lens of history now.

@mattbbpl: I recently read Dale Carnage's famous book, "How to win Friends and Influence People" and one of the things I have been trying to take great strides in is seeing and understanding how others see the world, particularly people who are diametrically opposed to my own beliefs about the world. Not to say I've never done this before of course, but simply that I'm working even harder at keeping cool head while doing so.

Honestly I'm not sure I'd be able to do Limbaugh just yet. He's a guy who says things in a way specifically designed to piss people who disagree with him off. I'd be concerned my goal of greater empathy would take 3-4 steps back if not lost entirely if I dove that deep into a book written by a guy like him.

See I agree with this here.

I am an old school feminist, equal rights in every sense etc. etc. but modern 3rd wave feminism is just something I can't truly support.

A lot of the 3rd wave feminists that complain live in 1st world countries as well. I just see a lot of victim mentality in this generation tbh.

@luckylucious: I'll never understand the mentality that one shouldn't complain just because they live in a 1st world country. Literally no one in America should complain about anything by that logic which is precisely why the logic fails.

Honestly I really only ever see this argument brought up as a means to discredit others and to shut down conversations.

Pretty much this. This is "true" feminism. The stuff the original, pioneering feminist fought for. The "Rosie the Riveters" that built the ships and planes, but were then told to go back to the kitchens and replied "Why should we?"

"Modern" feminism is full of double standards, hypocrisy, and idiots. I think we call that third-wave feminism?

I think you'll find most adult women will fall into the category of true feminist, or traditional gender role, or a blend of the two. You generally find that girls--college aged females who are entertaining new ideas, or on the flip-side don't know what to think and are thus told what to--comprise the "modern" third-wave feminists.

Thankfully I don't know many of the latter!

Being a women in the USA compared to a pretty significant portion of the world is easy AF. Fact.

Are you really trying to tell me being a woman in a 1st world country even begins to compare to being a woman in the Middle East/other parts of the world? Its just laughable dude. Classic victim mentality.

Idk about you guys but when I see Feminist threads on gaming forums I get very afraid of the Neckbeard-y tendencies of the comments

Like people calling out first world feminism for what it truly is? There are actual countries where woman being oppressed for actually being a women. Its just not happening here (in the US) at-least not right now on a grand scale.

Sure there are some societal and social effects of being a women, but that just simply doesn't count as oppression.

Ironically those are the very same cultures that feminist defend hardest.. You couldn't write a better damned satire.. Lets demonize western society claiming its a rape culture and the like, while defending the real rape cultures in the world in which women have the fewest right possible..

That's a great goal. I've learned that it's something that a lot of people struggle with, which surprised me.

But... I'm not confident I'd recommend Limbaugh anyway. There's nothing there intellectually so the main benefit of reading him is to get an insight into what his audience believes/is being led to believe, but his sphere of influence is receding so the benefit of that is shrinking.

Wow, that's not what I said at all.