The problem with Islam that only Muslims can acknowledge (long read)

It's that... very rarely in Middle-East societies, key note Saudi Arabia, do they allow discussion of Islam. That is, debating what is halal and haram (allowed or taboo, respectively). Such as I don't know, why dancing isn't really allowed.

Or more importantly, the real issue: why women and men aren't equal: why it's not allowed to hang out with women, to... ugh, I'm just saying basic interactions with the opposite sex.

I don't know about anyone else, but I know I can keep my basic primal instincts in check.

The thing is, I look at Western society and I cannot help but see why this will never change: With your strip clubs and nightclub alcohol dancing and teenage pregnancy and STD's and all manner of other crap, there's no way the hypocrites in charge will relent from preaching how men and women must not be together. Where some college classes actually have segregation of the sexes.

I mean, me and my friends would joke about how embarrassing it would be on our wedding night: the minister would pronounce us "husband and wife" and then proceed to tell us how to have sex or something. Because you know, sexual education and basic human anatomy is actually not even covered in schools (there are SOME, few exceptions). Frickin aye. So we'd like get a crash course on "what to do" by the guy. Just a little joke me and my friends would make (among others)

This is the thing: Most Westerners insist on saying stuff like just because others abuse such and such, doesn't mean we can't have fun! It's alright in moderation! However in Islam, we deal with absolutes, not this wishy-washy material: Alcohol is bad, that's it. Narcotic abuse is bad, that's it. Murder, rape, gambling all those things are wrong and that's it: there is no grey area in this matter, and I think it is rightfully so.

Another thing: Westerns aren't much about building a community and looking out for each other. Basically, the common consensus is: let "them" do what they want, I don't care as long as it's not affecting me. But in Islam, we do not leave it up to the individual and hope that they will abstain from drugs and alcohol and other stuff. If you're a Muslim you do your best in this life by praying to God and living your life to the fullest, whether it be studying the Sciences or computer engineering or any other job and career.

^^ Now whether this is right or not... I know that as Muslims, we are brothers and everyone has each other's back. We pay money to the poor and help out in any way we can.

Lastly, the reason why I mention that only Muslims can argue this case is because… well this doesn't reflect on you guys, but it's difficult to take the opinion of someone who drinks alcohol seriously.

Who says they can't live without it, that gambling is alright, that strip clubs and prostitution, as long as "two people" are consenting, is okay. I look at my cousins and other people that I'm acquainted with, and they all have dreams and aspirations.

Whether they want to be a doctor, a physical therapist, an architect, graphic designer, a business man, etc etc they all study and work hard in college and they don't drink alcohol, or do drugs, which are apparently a "rite of passage" as stated by some teens.

So I look at these kinds of people as role models. If they can do it… can't you? I'm not preaching, just wanting you to understand this point of view.

Why is it difficult to take the opinion of someone who drinks alcohol seriously? Wine was drunk in biblical times....and probably some other beverages as well.LJS9502_basic

Well I just mentioned that in the Italics part as you can see:

Basically I don't want to offend anyone, I just want to mention that I was raised to be a strong person, a strong man. Among all the other sins, drinking is such a huge sign of weakness and does not promote a stronger tighter community. If entire nations can exist without it... and so far our communities have thrived without it (still need that extra... evolution to become thriving societies and eventually nations) then it's not really impossible is it?

Again, it's what you do with your own life. I'm still just wandering how exactly, or rather what a person tells himself to justify drinking alcohol.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Why is it difficult to take the opinion of someone who drinks alcohol seriously? Wine was drunk in biblical times....and probably some other beverages as well.Safetynetss

Well I just mentioned that in the Italics part as you can see:

Basically I don't want to offend anyone, I just want to mention that I was raised to be a strong person, a strong man. Among all the other sins, drinking is such a huge sign of weakness and does not promote a stronger tighter community. If entire nations can exist without it... and so far our communities have thrived without it (still need that extra... evolution to become thriving societies and eventually nations) then it's not really impossible is it?

Again, it's what you do with your own life. I'm still just wandering how exactly, or rather what a person tells himself to justify drinking alcohol.

I can just tell this isn't going to end well at all.

The third comment already says it all.

All I got out of that post is that I'm really glad I'm an Atheist. I don't mind telling you that, because I'm drinking a beer right now so I know you won't take me seriously.

I didn't know charity was such a big thing in Islam. The countries providing the most amount of international aid/charity (as a percentage of what they earn) are all European.F1_2004

those countries can't afford it, and don't forget Canada it bleeds aid.

Anyway, I think your right that Islam is not well known about outside of the middle east.

However in Islam, we deal with absolutesSafetynetss

All I got out of that post is that I'm really glad I'm an Atheist. I don't mind telling you that, because I'm drinking a beer right now so I know you won't take me seriously.

Atheos-Arkhaios

[QUOTE="Safetynetss"]However in Islam, we deal with absolutesB33thoven

Why not? Not like Jail does any good.

Correct me if I'm wrong but... Muslims have each other's back? It hardly seems that way. Granted, I'm no anthropologist, but from what I've seen from the Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq, you guys really don't seem tohave each other's back completely. You may have your own denomination of Islam or whatever, but in no way do all Muslims support each other.

[QUOTE="Atheos-Arkhaios"]

All I got out of that post is that I'm really glad I'm an Atheist. I don't mind telling you that, because I'm drinking a beer right now so I know you won't take me seriously.

LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="Safetynetss"] Now whether this is right or not... I know that as Muslims, we are brothers and everyone has each other's back. We pay money to the poor and help out in any way we can.

wstfld

....and blow each other up.

thats not Islam. Its people with daddy issues. Think Usama Bin Laden has a free pass to heaven just because of 9/11? :lol: yeh right.

[QUOTE="wstfld"]

[QUOTE="Safetynetss"] Now whether this is right or not... I know that as Muslims, we are brothers and everyone has each other's back. We pay money to the poor and help out in any way we can.

Disturbed123

....and blow each other up.

thats not Islam. Its people with daddy issues. Think Usama Bin Laden has a free pass to heaven just because of 9/11? :lol: yeh right.

thats not Islam. Its people with daddy issues. Think Usama Bin Laden has a free pass to heaven just because of 9/11? :lol: yeh right.Disturbed123

[QUOTE="Safetynetss"]and so far our communities have thrived without itB33thoven

Defeat arrogance with arrogance?

Correct me if I'm wrong but... Muslims have each other's back? It hardly seems that way. Granted, I'm no anthropologist, but from what I've seen from the Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq, you guys really don't seem tohave each other's back completely. You may have your own denomination of Islam or whatever, but in no way do all Muslims support each other.

Vari3ty

Shiites have very strict rulings and is a fairly backward country, and majority of the population in Iraq is infact Shiites. If you look at other countries, i.e. Saudi Arabia, Syria, Malaysia, Dubai, Turkey, Sudan, Eygpt, and Libya which are densely populated with Sunnis, very little issues happen.

[QUOTE="Vari3ty"]

Correct me if I'm wrong but... Muslims have each other's back? It hardly seems that way. Granted, I'm no anthropologist, but from what I've seen from the Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq, you guys really don't seem tohave each other's back completely. You may have your own denomination of Islam or whatever, but in no way do all Muslims support each other.

Disturbed123

Shiites have very strict rulings and is a fairly backward country, and majority of the population in Iraq is infact Shiites. If you look at other countries, i.e. Saudi Arabia, Syria, Malaysia, Dubai, Turkey, Sudan, Eygpt, and Libya which are densely populated with Sunnis, very little issues happen.

So basically you're saying Sunnis are more peaceful than Shiites?

[QUOTE="Vari3ty"]

Correct me if I'm wrong but... Muslims have each other's back? It hardly seems that way. Granted, I'm no anthropologist, but from what I've seen from the Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq, you guys really don't seem tohave each other's back completely. You may have your own denomination of Islam or whatever, but in no way do all Muslims support each other.

Disturbed123

Shiites have very strict rulings and is a fairly backward country, and majority of the population in Iraq is infact Shiites. If you look at other countries, i.e. Saudi Arabia, Syria, Malaysia, Dubai, Turkey, Sudan, Eygpt, and Libya which are densely populated with Sunnis, very little issues happen.

[QUOTE="Vari3ty"]

Correct me if I'm wrong but... Muslims have each other's back? It hardly seems that way. Granted, I'm no anthropologist, but from what I've seen from the Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq, you guys really don't seem tohave each other's back completely. You may have your own denomination of Islam or whatever, but in no way do all Muslims support each other.

Disturbed123

Shiites have very strict rulings and is a fairly backward country, and majority of the population in Iraq is infact Shiites. If you look at other countries, i.e. Saudi Arabia, Syria, Malaysia, Dubai, Turkey, Sudan, Eygpt, and Libya which are densely populated with Sunnis, very little issues happen.

[QUOTE="Disturbed123"]thats not Islam. Its people with daddy issues. Think Usama Bin Laden has a free pass to heaven just because of 9/11? :lol: yeh right.SolidSnake35

Being western is not a religion though. You are governed by your own rulings via government and presidents. Islam is different. Its islamically proven bombings and negativity is against Islamic ways. Muslim people dont take inspiration from people like Sadam Hussein, Osama bin Laden etc, they take teachings such as Sheikh Al Yaquobi, Prophet Muhammad etc. You think people like Nepoleon, Muhammad Ali, and other muslim converts feel like doing what Usama Bin laden does?

The problem is, the issues I want to explore are WAY too long for a small post on a game website. I could write an entire essay, thesis, book on the many flaws currently presiding in the Middle-East, the main area practicing Islam.

More or less, Islam is... the right way isn't it? Like I said, all the people I know that live their lives well, heck my own father: From living in mud houses as a kid, where he and his brothers would sleep on the roof every night because of the heat (and outdoors at night would be relatively cool) to now a hard-working doctor, who's given me everything I could ever need- a house, food, comfort of living, financial security, the opportunity to see education without worrying about finances, etc etc. I can only hope that I also work hard and do my best in life.

It's difficult to listen to stuff like "oh well alcohol has health benefits" instead of saying "I take a light jog every now and then, but man courses this semester are tough I have no time" or you know, being more productive. I look at one group of people, the people I'm with, some of my cousins who go on to study in the States (as it is the best place now) and come back knowing more than they did.

Am I making any sense? Is anyone open-minded enough to realize, maybe take a step back and think about all the things they find okay, then notice how a potentially perfect society has so many problems? I mean the US for example is such a great place that has all kinds of landscape, weather, entertainment, education opportunities without resorting to the bad stuff.

The problem is, the issues I want to explore are WAY too long for a small post on a game website. I could write an entire essay, thesis, book on the many flaws currently presiding in the Middle-East, the main area practicing Islam.

More or less, Islam is... the right way isn't it? Like I said, all the people I know that live their lives well, heck my own father: From living in mud houses as a kid, where he and his brothers would sleep on the roof every night because of the heat (and outdoors at night would be relatively cool) to now a hard-working doctor, who's given me everything I could ever need- a house, food, comfort of living, financial security, the opportunity to see education without worrying about finances, etc etc. I can only hope that I also work hard and do my best in life.

It's difficult to listen to stuff like "oh well alcohol has health benefits" instead of saying "I take a light jog every now and then, but man courses this semester are tough I have no time" or you know, being more productive. I look at one group of people, the people I'm with, some of my cousins who go on to study in the States (as it is the best place now) and come back knowing more than they did.

Am I making any sense? Is anyone open-minded enough to realize, maybe take a step back and think about all the things they find okay, then notice how a potentially perfect society has so many problems? I mean the US for example is such a great place that has all kinds of landscape, weather, entertainment, education opportunities without resorting to the bad stuff.

Safetynetss

Another thing: Westerns aren't much about building a community and looking out for each other. Basically, the common consensus is: let "them" do what they want, I don't care as long as it's not affecting me. But in Islam, we do not leave it up to the individual and hope that they will abstain from drugs and alcohol and other stuff. If you're a Muslim you do your best in this life by praying to God and living your life to the fullest, whether it be studying the Sciences or computer engineering or any other job and career.

Safetynetss

Why is alcohol bad? It's actually good for you, in moderation. They even do it in the Bible.

Another thing: Westerns aren't much about building a community and looking out for each other. Basically, the common consensus is: let "them" do what they want, I don't care as long as it's not affecting me. But in Islam, we do not leave it up to the individual and hope that they will abstain from drugs and alcohol and other stuff. If you're a Muslim you do your best in this life by praying to God and living your life to the fullest, whether it be studying the Sciences or computer engineering or any other job and career.

Safetynetss

Lastly, the reason why I mention that only Muslims can argue this case is because… well this doesn't reflect on you guys, but it's difficult to take the opinion of someone who drinks alcohol seriously.

Who says they can't live without it, that gambling is alright, that strip clubs and prostitution, as long as "two people" are consenting, is okay. I look at my cousins and other people that I'm acquainted with, and they all have dreams and aspirations.

Safetynetss

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="Disturbed123"]thats not Islam. Its people with daddy issues. Think Usama Bin Laden has a free pass to heaven just because of 9/11? :lol: yeh right.Disturbed123

Being western is not a religion though. You are governed by your own rulings via government and presidents. Islam is different. Its islamically proven bombings and negativity is against Islamic ways. Muslim people dont take inspiration from people like Sadam Hussein, Osama bin Laden etc, they take teachings such as Sheikh Al Yaquobi, Prophet Muhammad etc. You think people like Nepoleon, Muhammad Ali, and other muslim converts feel like doing what Usama Bin laden does?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Why is it difficult to take the opinion of someone who drinks alcohol seriously? Wine was drunk in biblical times....and probably some other beverages as well.Safetynetss

Well I just mentioned that in the Italics part as you can see:

Basically I don't want to offend anyone, I just want to mention that I was raised to be a strong person, a strong man. Among all the other sins, drinking is such a huge sign of weakness and does not promote a stronger tighter community. If entire nations can exist without it... and so far our communities have thrived without it (still need that extra... evolution to become thriving societies and eventually nations) then it's not really impossible is it?

Again, it's what you do with your own life. I'm still just wandering how exactly, or rather what a person tells himself to justify drinking alcohol.

This is the thing: Most Westerners insist on saying stuff like just because others abuse such and such, doesn't mean we can't have fun! It's alright in moderation! However in Islam, we deal with absolutes, not this wishy-washy material: Alcohol is bad, that's it. Narcotic abuse is bad, that's it. Murder, rape, gambling all those things are wrong and that's it: there is no grey area in this matter, and I think it is rightfully so.Safetynetss

See, the teachings that I know of sound pretty ideal. Both ideal and practical to use. And US society is also ideal in how it has advanced so much, in technological aspects and other stuff.

There are problems to both sides and unfortunately it all comes down to human nature and whether people will do good or not. I guess I don't have a lot of faith in people because since I am pretty young and hang around peers my age, I can see that humanity would rather indulge in their "sins" than do the much more difficult, right thing.

But what do I know? I still don't know how the world works and I need to be educated more, and experience life more to see. Because right now I am very worried about what both types of societies will be like in a decade or so. I've always thought of a career in poilitical science or getting a job at the ministry, fully accepting the fact that I'll probably end up bitter and hating the population I serve who I will always think of as... not smarts

[QUOTE="Disturbed123"]

[QUOTE="Vari3ty"]

Correct me if I'm wrong but... Muslims have each other's back? It hardly seems that way. Granted, I'm no anthropologist, but from what I've seen from the Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq, you guys really don't seem tohave each other's back completely. You may have your own denomination of Islam or whatever, but in no way do all Muslims support each other.

ghoklebutter

Shiites have very strict rulings and is a fairly backward country, and majority of the population in Iraq is infact Shiites. If you look at other countries, i.e. Saudi Arabia, Syria, Malaysia, Dubai, Turkey, Sudan, Eygpt, and Libya which are densely populated with Sunnis, very little issues happen.

You can say that about anyone. "Oh As radical as XYZ rulings are, then XYZ people I KNOW are nice". People lack any form of understanding in terms of Islam. There are differences between Shiites and Sunnis, but Islamically they shouldnt fight over it. Im not saying Shiites are bad people, im saying Iraq is a backward country with backward ruling and harsh conditions, hence consisting of alot of "angry" people.

I don't see how you can claim that islamic countries have prospered. The ideaology (typo?) of breaking human rights have. Homophobia, painful death penalties (for the most stupid reasons, I might add), mistreating women, forced marriage at a young age (a.k.a pedophilia), killing their own children if they refuse to marry (I know it has happened. It was all over the news here in Norway a few years ago), and the list goes on. And still you wonder why the west doesn't take you seriously. I can't for the likes of me understand how that can be normal and accepted in this day and age. If islamic countries want to prosper for real, they first need to regain their dignity by acting more human, by for example start treating women like the human beings they are. Women can work just as good as men, and imagine what could happen if they could actually start contributing, other than have children and be their husband's sex slaves. Don't even try to deny any of my accusations.

However, as I fear I will get a bit flamed for if I don't defend myself first, I do NOT believe terrorism to be representative for islam. A lot of muslims bring that argument up and call me ignorant for it.

Now, I hope no one will give me a reason to bring up the flameshield.

Kaim91

False dichotomy. You are comparing successful Muslim citizens to unsuccessful Western citizens and concluding from this that Western culture is more flawed than Middle Eastern culture because it does not produce successful citizens. I could easily produce a reversed conclusion by comparing Bill Gates to one of your lashed-for-being-a-rape-victim women were I such an intellectually dishonest person.

[QUOTE="Disturbed123"]

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"] So then what are we comparing here? It's not fair to compare a religious ideal to the entirity of Western culture. We could write an idealistic description of how Westerners live and say that those who not live this way are not truly Western.SolidSnake35

Being western is not a religion though. You are governed by your own rulings via government and presidents. Islam is different. Its islamically proven bombings and negativity is against Islamic ways. Muslim people dont take inspiration from people like Sadam Hussein, Osama bin Laden etc, they take teachings such as Sheikh Al Yaquobi, Prophet Muhammad etc. You think people like Nepoleon, Muhammad Ali, and other muslim converts feel like doing what Usama Bin laden does?

Again, you say Muslims are unable to follow Islam properly, but thats totally hypocritical in a sense that in every country, atleast someone breaks the law and cant follow the laws governed to them properly. Not just 1 or 2 people, theres a huge populatiry that has broken a law of some form or another. We are humans, we make mistakes, same for Muslims. I for one wouldnt live in USA, UK or EU for that matter. I would prefer living in Dubai or Syria (which I have in previous years). Im not denying that there some ****ed up people who claim they are "islamic" but truth be told theyre not even muslims. Quran makes it clear on killing, especially their own muslim brothers (which is why we muslims are against 9.11 because muslims died in both twin towers and on plane) that its wrong.

.ShAbInAtOr