The universe created itself?

After reading many posts here, I understand how many people can understand how some might argue how ridiculous to believe in God. But, I just find it strange how one can believe the universe just created itself, with no outside force involved. It just feels weird knowing how leading scientists believe we live in a universe that creates and governs itself. What are your thoughts?

After reading many posts here, I understand how many people can understand how some might argue how ridiculous to believe in God. But, I just find it strange how one can believe the universe just created itself, with no outside force involved. It just feels weird knowing how leading scientists believe we live in a universe that creates and governs itself. What are your thoughts?

the_plan_man

Well, it's really either that the universe created itself, or god did it.....and if god dosen't exist...

Well, it's really either that the universe created itself, or god did it.....and if god dosen't exist...

Celldrax

There is no cosmological suggesting that the universe created itselfxaos

Something something string theory something something xaos can explain it better

[QUOTE="xaos"]There is no cosmological suggesting that the universe created itselfthe_plan_man

god or primordial super dense atom whichever it was you can bet your bottom dollar that no scientist or religious authority has even the most rudimentary grasp on what is really going on.

if i had to guess i would say science has come closer by far though.

you can run the universe backwards and draw the super dense atom conclusion, i have yet to see any evidence of an invisible supernatural agent with absolute authority over reality.

[QUOTE="the_plan_man"][QUOTE="xaos"]There is no cosmological suggesting that the universe created itselfxaos

I'm not sure that 'created' is the appropriate word to describe the origin of the universe that we happen to reside within.

[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="the_plan_man"] Then what did, from a non-religious perspective?the_plan_man

I'm not sure that 'created' is the appropriate word to describe the origin of our universe.UniverseIX

I'm not sure that 'created' is the appropriate word to describe the origin of the universe that we happen to reside within.

UniverseIX

[QUOTE="UniverseIX"]I'm not sure that 'created' is the appropriate word to describe the origin of our universe.the_plan_man

What if God is the universe?

The collective forces forming its own consciousness that decided to spread life.

^not just physical/scientific forces

[QUOTE="Celldrax"]

Well, it's really either that the universe created itself, or god did it.....and if god dosen't exist...

the_plan_man

I'm curious, what do you mean when you say "agnostic?"

[QUOTE="Treflis"]Who's to say everything has a beginning and a end? .Kcube

[QUOTE="the_plan_man"][QUOTE="Celldrax"]

Well, it's really either that the universe created itself, or god did it.....and if god dosen't exist...

I'm curious, what do you mean when you say "agnostic?"

What if God is the universe?

The collective forces forming its own consciousness that decided to spread life.

^not just physical/scientific forces

Either God had to create itself or the Universe created itself, so I don't really see why one makes more sense then the other.

Wasn't created, it's here cause Nothing can't exist.KiIIyou

After reading many posts here, I understand how many people can understand how some might argue how ridiculous to believe in God. But, I just find it strange how one can believe the universe just created itself, with no outside force involved. It just feels weird knowing how leading scientists believe we live in a universe that creates and governs itself. What are your thoughts?

the_plan_man

[QUOTE="Frattracide"]

[QUOTE="the_plan_man"] Which is why I can't be anything but agnostic...both sides just seem so distorted. :?the_plan_man

I'm curious, what do you mean when you say "agnostic?"

Thanks, I always like to here self-described agnostics define that term since it seems to have so many varied definitions.

Follow up question: Which of the two following phrases do you think best describes agnosticism (as it pertains to you specifically)

1. An agnostic is someone who dosen't believe in a deity but also does not, not believe in a deity

2. An agnostic is someone who does not assert that a god exists, but also does not assert that no god exists.

I find it strange how you jump to the conclusion that the universe was created and then ask how people don't believe god created it. I believe what current knowledge tells me is true, and current knowledge has yet, to my knowledge, proven the existence or the necessity of a first cause.

Maybe the 'creator' created the universe by becoming aware of itself and expanding it's consciousness until the universe and everything within the cosmos came to be as it is now through the flower of life. :o

[QUOTE="the_plan_man"][QUOTE="Frattracide"]

I'm curious, what do you mean when you say "agnostic?"

Thanks, I always like to here self-described agnostics define that term since it seems to have so many varied definitions.

Follow up question: Which of the two following phrases do you think best describes agnosticism (as it pertains to you specifically)

1. An agnostic is someone who dosen't believe in a deity but also does not, not believe in a deity

2. An agnostic is someone who does not assert that a god exists, but also does not assert that no god exists.

[QUOTE="the_plan_man"][QUOTE="Frattracide"]

I'm curious, what do you mean when you say "agnostic?"

Frattracide

Thanks, I always like to here self-described agnostics define that term since it seems to have so many varied definitions.

Follow up question: Which of the two following phrases do you think best describes agnosticism (as it pertains to you specifically)

1. An agnostic is someone who dosen't believe in a deity but also does not, not believe in a deity

2. An agnostic is someone who does not assert that a god exists, but also does not assert that no god exists.

It's neither. Agnosticism means without knowledge, they asser that the existence of god cannot be proven or disproven, or more broadly that knowledge of metaphysical matters is impossible (hence without knowledge). The former I believe is called a weak atheist (atheist means without belief, which fits the description, but it's a weak position because they don't actively asser the non-existence of a god). The latter doesn't really belong to any formal position. Apathetic agnostic maybe, they don't make any claims to knowledge or any statements about position and don't care to.

The idea of self-creating objects is a logical impossibility. However, even if one eliminates self-creation as a cause for the universe, this does not automatically mean that the universe must have been created by a sentient omnipotent and omniscient being with specific moral guidelines.

After reading many posts here, I understand how many people can understand how some might argue how ridiculous to believe in God. But, I just find it strange how one can believe the universe just created itself, with no outside force involved. It just feels weird knowing how leading scientists believe we live in a universe that creates and governs itself. What are your thoughts?

the_plan_man

who would take him seriously? not other scientists.

The idea of self-creating objects is a logical impossibility. However, even if one eliminates self-creation as a cause for the universe, this does not automatically mean that the universe must have been created by a sentient omnipotent and omniscient being with specific moral guidelines.

Barbariser

Not to mention the whole idea of first causes raises a paradox that cannot be fromally remedied within our current logical estimation. If a first cause must exist because everything must have a first cause, then how can a first cause exist without its own first cause?

[QUOTE="xaos"]There is no cosmological suggesting that the universe created itselfthe_plan_man

Well, there was a "force" that started universe's formation... but it wasn't a conscious being with a "design." More like a ripple in a sea of infinite multiverses and singularities. But it really is impossible to know either way, so its best not to think about it.foxhound_fox

[QUOTE="the_plan_man"][QUOTE="xaos"]There is no cosmological suggesting that the universe created itselfmarkop2003

[QUOTE="Frattracide"]

[QUOTE="the_plan_man"] I'm not a theist or atheist.theone86

Thanks, I always like to here self-described agnostics define that term since it seems to have so many varied definitions.

Follow up question: Which of the two following phrases do you think best describes agnosticism (as it pertains to you specifically)

1. An agnostic is someone who dosen't believe in a deity but also does not, not believe in a deity

2. An agnostic is someone who does not assert that a god exists, but also does not assert that no god exists.

It's neither. Agnosticism means without knowledge, they asser that the existence of god cannot be proven or disproven, or more broadly that knowledge of metaphysical matters is impossible (hence without knowledge). The former I believe is called a weak atheist (atheist means without belief, which fits the description, but it's a weak position because they don't actively asser the non-existence of a god). The latter doesn't really belong to any formal position. Apathetic agnostic maybe, they don't make any claims to knowledge or any statements about position and don't care to.

The definition of the term varies depending on who is asked. Language is plastic.

What led up to the creation of a God and what was here even before that? I'm not gonna bother pondering the orgins of my excistence and just accept the fact I am here typing that message.Kcube

Only you're not here. In reality I am a great deceiver, and all these other users, all the people you think you know, even the physical world itself is a hallucination I cooked up to keep you trapped in a false reality. Only problem is I want to deceive you into believing every possible false notion, but I can never deceive you into believing you don't exist, if not physically then as a thinking being. Don't worry, though, I'm working on it. Hey, for all you know my telling you this could be part of a complicated new plan aimed at achieving my ultimate goal.

[QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="the_plan_man"] Then what did, from a non-religious perspective?the_plan_man

[QUOTE="Kcube"]What led up to the creation of a God and what was here even before that? I'm not gonna bother pondering the orgins of my excistence and just accept the fact I am here typing that message.theone86

Only you're not here. In reality I am a great deceiver, and all these other users, all the people you think you know, even the physical world itself is a hallucination I cooked up to keep you trapped in a false reality. Only problem is I want to deceive you into believing every possible false notion, but I can never deceive you into believing you don't exist, if not physically then as a thinking being. Don't worry, though, I'm working on it. Hey, for all you know my telling you this could be part of a complicated new plan aimed at achieving my ultimate goal.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Frattracide"]

Thanks, I always like to here self-described agnostics define that term since it seems to have so many varied definitions.

Follow up question: Which of the two following phrases do you think best describes agnosticism (as it pertains to you specifically)

1. An agnostic is someone who dosen't believe in a deity but also does not, not believe in a deity

2. An agnostic is someone who does not assert that a god exists, but also does not assert that no god exists.

Frattracide

It's neither. Agnosticism means without knowledge, they asser that the existence of god cannot be proven or disproven, or more broadly that knowledge of metaphysical matters is impossible (hence without knowledge). The former I believe is called a weak atheist (atheist means without belief, which fits the description, but it's a weak position because they don't actively asser the non-existence of a god). The latter doesn't really belong to any formal position. Apathetic agnostic maybe, they don't make any claims to knowledge or any statements about position and don't care to.

The definition of the term varies depending on who is asked. Language is plastic.

Okay, I'm a Christian because I think that Jesus existed, only he wasn't the son of god. He was simply the most visionary man on the face of the planet, and his message got twisted by people who couldn't resist the urge to control. His real message is that everyone should love freely and do whatever drugs make them feel good.

Terms and distinctions exist for a reason, they exist beause people take up certain positions and want those positions to be easily identifiable. Using agnostic as anyone who simply doesn't have an opinion on god blurs that distinction and makes the recognition of true agnosticism that much harder.

I am not under the impression I have ever heard someone argue that the universe created itself.

I don't think that's right. The leading theory today is the big bang theory, with only a select few who believe it always existed.the_plan_man