The War of the States..(Includes SHORT summary for you lazy people :P)..

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Xx_Hopeless_xX

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#1 Xx_Hopeless_xX
Member since 2009 • 16562 Posts

Often times in history there are events that you read about, events that make you think "Wow, if only So and So had done this, or if this set of actions had been taken that whole thing could have been avoided". These thoughts come to mind when reading about the War of the States or War for Southern Independence, but it's more commonly known as the Civil War. Many times we hear all about how it was about slavery slavery slavery, slavery was one of the causes in so far as it caused disputes primarily in regards to territories and power within the Senate . According to those who fought, slavery was not even on their list of concerns. It's impossible to cover all the events that led up to the War of the States in so short a time, therefore we will look take a brief look at some of the views held by the North before then looking at the Dred Scott case, the action taken by one John Brown, the views of Abraham Lincoln in regards to slavery and finally the views of the soldiers who actually fought in the war.

(By no means is this intended to provoke an argument in regards to slavery, nor is it meant in any way to demean members of any ethnicity and/or race. Nor is it in any way defending the institution of slavery as it was wrong to enslave members of any race. With that said, this was the way most countries acted at the time. Conquer the populace and either enslave them or make them submit to your rule. As a result of the labor intensive crops such as tobacco and cotton that could only be grown in the Southern climate the South naturally had slaves whereas the North did not have much need for them. Even then, one must keep in mind that not many of the citizens of the South owned slaves and in regards to slave owners, slaves were viewed as property, just as a horse or cow was, thus they were treated as such. The mentalities of both the North and the South were significantly different as a result, so please try and keep this in mind when reading this.)

Also, since people like the short version...Basically, Lincoln was not the "Great Emancipator" as people view him as...The North's intentions were not the great, noble abolitionist views that people generally make them out to have..the South was not the uncivilized, completely slave oriented society and they did actually have more abolitionist groups than the North..and it was Lincoln's foolish decision to send troops to quell the "rebellious" states that ultimately led to the War of the States (Civil War)..This quote sums it up nicely, a Northern soldier stated "We are fighting for the Union, a high and Noble sentiment, but after all a sentiment. They are fighting for independence and are animated by passion and hatred against invaders".

The ultimate point of this essay if you will, was to help shed light on some of the causes of the War of the States, to point out some views that appear to have been missed in History Courses (at least the courses i have attended) at times and to ask this one question, What action do you think members of either side could have taken to avoid the bloodshed that was the War of the States? To clarify the inquiry put forth, what do you think could have been done differently in regards to Lincoln's choices as well as the actions of both sides?

The north may have been the side viewed as the one that was all about freeing slavery, but often times we don't read that the South had numerous organizations that were lobbying for the freeing of the slaves. Unfortunately the Southern abolitionists cause was disregarded because of one William Loyd Garrison. His newspaper The Liberator helped sow nothing but contempt towards the South as his paper was highly influential. As of 1827 there were actually four times as many anti-slavery groups in the south then in the North. As a result of the contempt and such sowed by Garrison the anti-slavery movements in the South were viewed with suspicion and were not taken seriously.

The North, though pro-abolition did not want the freed slaves settling on land. They wanted to reserve the land for the "White man". Oh and while we're on the subject of the "white man", many early Puritans when settling did not actually steal the lands from the Indians as people love to claim. There were actually laws that stated if a Puritan settler settled on a land owned by an Indian he was actually made to give it back if the actual owner of the land presented himself. The Puritans also traded with the Indians for land, any trades made that were not sanctioned were punishable by law as was the murder of any Indian, but i digress...

Getting back on track, we turn our sights to the famous case of the slave Dred Scott. For those who don't know what this was he was a slave in the United States who sued unsuccessfully in St. Louis, Missouri for his freedom in the infamous Dred Scott v. Sandford case of 1857. He travelled to territories such as Illinois with his master in which slavery had been made illegal, thus he should have been freed in accordance with the law that stated if a slave was taken to a land where slavery was illegal by his master then he should be considered a free man. As said by Hamilton Gamble a Missouri chief justice on the matter "In this State, it has been recognized from the beginning of the government as a correct position in law that a master who takes his slave [to]reside in a State or territory where slavery is prohibited, thereby emancipates his slave". The South recognized this, and Scott would have been freed had it been up to a Southern circuit court. Unfortunately the US supreme court reversed the decision to free him on the grounds that the relevant law prevailing in Missouri was not prevailing in Illinois or the Wisconsin territory. Regardless, Scott lived happily ever after because he was emancipated by his owner not long after the case. Surprisingly, it was not so much the ruling that caused such an outcry from the North as it was what the Chief Justice Roger Taney said about Scott. He regarded Scott as a man who was not actually a citizen of the States arguing that because of all the disabilities placed on blacks in the union it showed that they were not considered members of the States in so much as actual citizenship went and that citizenship rights had not been intended to be extended to them. Textbooks often like to state that Taney stated that the blacks were "so far inferior, that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect". Taney was not actually claiming this was his position on the subject. Taney was instead stating that by the time of the Declaration of Independence the general consensus amongst the white man was that blacks were indeed inferior and that this view allowed them no rights. Taney's commentary regarding slavery in the territories is what really riled up the Northerners, basically Taney stated that because the Prohibition of slavery had been unconstitutional in the first place and that the Missouri Compromise had been unconstitutional as well. Had Taney not stated these things perhaps there would not have been such hostility targeted at the South, however misguided this hostility was.

Now we move on to the subject of the murderer John Brown. Murderer? Oh yes, did your history teachers forget to tell you how he believed he was on a divine mission to end slavery? Or how he murdered five men in what was known as the Pottawatomie Creek Massacre? These men he murdered were not even slave owners. Brown and his followers targeted these five families because Brown considered them loyal to the wrong cause. He dragged the man of each house out of his bed and butchered him as his family was forced to watch in horror. After this incident Brown disappeared for some time before resurfacing in October of 1859 to carry out the infamous events that took place at Harpers Ferry. His plan was to arm slaves by raiding an armory and then arming the slaves around Harpers Ferry (of which there were very few in what is now Western Virginia) and help them to massacre their owners, in the hopes that this would then cause a massive slave insurrection in the South. His plan failed as he was surrounded by local citizens, US troops and militia. H surrendered after many of his followers were slain and later hanged. This event in and of itself was not outstanding, what was outstanding to Southerner's, who already believed their safety within the Union was a being threatened, was the fact that many viewed this mad man as a hero, a saint even! As stated by Ralph Waldo Emerson and Louisa May Alcott as well as Henry David Thoreau to name a few of the notable literary minds at the time. The one exception was Nathaniel Hawthorne who rightfully claimed that "Nobody was ever more justly hanged". The attitude of viewing such a man as a saint did nothing more then heighten this feeling of fear for safety in the South. Adding even more to this fear was the fact that six prominent Northerners had funded Brown's expedition, these six men came to be known as the "Secret Six", these men were Thomas Wentworth Higginson, Samuel Howe, Theodore Parker, Franklin Benjamin Sanborn, Gerrit Smith, and George Luther Stearns. Many Southerners concluded that they were so hated by the Northerners that the North may very well welcome the South's departure from the Union. Also creating fear in the South was the fact that because the North supported such a violent scheme to end slavery that the North considered violence the right way to end slavery. Mind you, slavery was ended peacefully in every other nation in the Western Hemisphere. Perhaps if both sides had taken a step back and assessed the situation they may have come to an agreement, slavery would by all indication die a natural death as long as it was not permitted to spread to other territories as the lands of slave owners would eventually become infertile due to over use and if the slave owners were not allowed to move to more fertile land they would have to find another way of making money.

By the time seven of the Southern states had already seceded Abraham Lincoln became president. Lincoln believed that whites were in fact superior and he fully supported the deportation of freed slaves. What caused the War of the States was Lincoln's foolish decision. South Carolina had seceded from the Union, naturally, federal troops should not remain on South Carolina's soil. Unfortunately, Lincoln sent a ship to re-provision the troops at Fort Sumter, giving the South Carolinian citizens the idea that Lincoln was not actually intending to remove the troops from their soil. As an act of resistance Southerner's fired the first shot in the war on Fort Sumter. There were no casualties and Lincoln claimed that it was a rebellion even though South Carolina had every right to try and force the federal troops out of their state because they were no longer part of the Union in which the federal troops served. Lincoln sent 75,000 militia troops to suppress the "rebel" states. This move resulted in the secession of four more states who believed that to use force against American states was a "mad project utterly at variance with traditional American principles". To definitively state that Lincoln, at the very least at the time the War of the States started was not an abolitionist he stated in his fourth debate with Stephen Douglas in 1858 that: "I will say that i am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that i am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Blacks (not the precise word used, the precise word is now considered "offensive" though it was viewed as a very polite term for quite a long time), nor of qualifying them to hold office , nor to intermarry with white people; and i will say that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which i believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they can not so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race". Now, how one could possibly place Lincoln on a pedestal as a great abolitionist is beyond me. These views are evident throughout Lincoln's career as he voted against black suffrage and refused to sign a petition allowing black testimony in court. Ultimately, we now come to what Lincoln's intentions were in regards to the War of the States. Following the actions of those in his time in which unifying territories was "all the rage", Lincoln was "drawn to this spirit of Nationalism, and along with Daniel Webster, viewed the Union and the Southern Secession through this ideological lens". He told Horace Greeley who was an American newspaper editor that if he could save the Union by abolishing slavery he would do it, if he could save the Union without abolishing slavery he would do it and if he could free some slaves whilst others remained in bondage to save the Union he would it.

Many in the North were also worried about the fact that if the South were allowed to remain outside of the Union with their policy of free trade that more international ships would start using Southern ports instead of Northern ports. This was because of the tariffs in the North, which was also a contributing factor the the discontent amongst the South. These tariffs would have raised the price of living in the South and make it much harder for Southern citizens to make a living, of which many citizens of the South were subsistence farmers, meaning that they did NOT own slaves nor were they by any stretch of the imagination wealthy, they lived on farms, grew their own food and sold whatever surplus they had for money. As soon as the Confederate Congress adopted a system of low tariffs an Ohio congressman by the name of Clement Vallindigham said "trade and commerce...began to look south". As a result, the commercial cities such as New York began demanding that this tariff be repealed. Seeing as it would not be, New England and Pennsylvania demanded that Southern ports be closed by way of force as a first step, then the issue of the low tariffs could be fixed peacefully. Many in the South also feared that Lincoln, as a member of the Republican party(which was notoriously abolitionist), would abolish slavery in the South, which would send the Southern society into chaos.

James McPherson, a respected and acclaimed Civil War historian, after consulting many primary sources has stated that two-thirds of the letters read from soldiers stated that members of each side were fighting due to patriotism. "Northern soldiers by and large said they were fighting to preserve what their ancestors had bequeathed to them: the Union. Southern soldiers also referred to their ancestors, but they typically argued that the real legacy of the Founding Fathers was not so much the Union as the principle of self government. Very often we see Southern Soldiers comparing the South's struggle against the US government to the colonies struggle against Britain." As one can see, the soldiers from both sides viewed the war as one that was fought to preserve self government. Even the acclaimed Union General Ulysses S. Grant stated that "If i thought this war was to abolish slavery, I would resign my commission and offer my sword to the other side"

Surprisingly the Cherokee supported the Southern cause, in response to this support the Confederacy even offered to let the Cherokee have their own state. In the "Declaration by the People of the Cherokee Nation of the Causes Which Have Impelled them to Unite Their Fortunes With Those of the Confederate States of America" which was issued in 1861 the Cherokee stated that, in regards to the North they "saw with alarm a violated Constitution, all civil liberty put in peril, and all rules of civilized warfare and the dictates of common humanity and decency unhesitatingly disregarded. In the states which still adhered to the Union a military despotism had displaced civilian power and the laws became silent with arms. Free Speech and almost free though became a crime". They then stated in regards to the Confedracy that the Southerner's only sought to repel the invaders from their own soil and to "secure the right of governing themselves.

Naturally not every topic that led to the War of the States has been covered here. The ultimate point of this essay if you will, was to help shed light on some of the causes of the War of the States, to point out some views that appear to have been missed in History Courses (at least the courses i have attended) at times and to ask this one question, What action do you think members of either side could have taken to avoid the bloodshed that was the War of the States? To clarify the inquiry put forth, what do you think could have been done differently in regards to Lincoln's choices as well as the actions of both sides?

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spazzx625

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#2 spazzx625
Member since 2004 • 43433 Posts
Holy hell...Can we at least get a summary?
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Xx_Hopeless_xX

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#3 Xx_Hopeless_xX
Member since 2009 • 16562 Posts
Holy hell...Can we at least get a summary?spazzx625
Oh, i stated it at the end...It's basically as i said to shed light on some facts that tend to be overlooked or left out..basically i'm asking, if one were to read all that was "The ultimate point of this essay if you will, was to help shed light on some of the causes of the War of the States, to point out some views that appear to have been missed in History Courses (at least the courses i have attended) at times and to ask this one question, What action do you think members of either side could have taken to avoid the bloodshed that was the War of the States? To clarify the inquiry put forth, what do you think could have been done differently in regards to Lincoln's choices as well as the actions of both sides?" sorry it's such an epic read :x..
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#5 bededog
Member since 2005 • 8579 Posts
Holy hell...Can we at least get a summary?spazzx625
I concur, this has to be one of the longest walls o'text I've seen on OT.
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scorch-62

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#6 scorch-62
Member since 2006 • 29763 Posts
Hopeless, I love you and all, but I'm not reading that.
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Xx_Hopeless_xX

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#7 Xx_Hopeless_xX
Member since 2009 • 16562 Posts
[QUOTE="spazzx625"]Holy hell...Can we at least get a summary?bededog
I concur, this has to be one of the longest walls o'text I've seen on OT.

Well than just read the question at the end..the whole point of that was to give people something to think about BEFORE answering the question i posed..
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Xx_Hopeless_xX

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#8 Xx_Hopeless_xX
Member since 2009 • 16562 Posts
Hopeless, I love you and all, but I'm not reading that.scorch-62
Aww pleaase :x..
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Espada12

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#9 Espada12
Member since 2008 • 23247 Posts

Good read, especially about lincoln.. wasn't he also a slave owner?

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scorch-62

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#10 scorch-62
Member since 2006 • 29763 Posts
[QUOTE="scorch-62"]Hopeless, I love you and all, but I'm not reading that.Xx_Hopeless_xX
Aww pleaase :x..

Nothing you can do would make me read that for you. Not even what you're thinking of.
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Xx_Hopeless_xX

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#11 Xx_Hopeless_xX
Member since 2009 • 16562 Posts

Good read, especially about lincoln.. wasn't he also a slave owner?

Espada12
I'm not actually certain, at one point he may very well have...But he lived in Illinois and slavery was illegal there..
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spazzx625

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#12 spazzx625
Member since 2004 • 43433 Posts

Good read, especially about lincoln.. wasn't he also a slave owner?

Espada12
No...He wasn't
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Xx_Hopeless_xX

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#13 Xx_Hopeless_xX
Member since 2009 • 16562 Posts
[QUOTE="Espada12"] [QUOTE="scorch-62"][QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"][QUOTE="scorch-62"]Hopeless, I love you and all, but I'm not reading that.spazzx625
Aww pleaase :x..

Nothing you can do would make me read that for you. Not even what you're thinking of.

But..but...:cry:
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l4dak47

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#14 l4dak47
Member since 2009 • 6838 Posts
Slavery was a relatively small factor in the Civil war. It was a conflict of ideas and culture between the South and North. That conflict of ideas escalated so fast that no-body could really stop it. In reality, the Civil War was very complicated and messy. Like most things in politics.
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Mousetaches

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#15 Mousetaches
Member since 2009 • 1293 Posts
I take it this is an essay for school? If so, I would get rid of questions in your conclusions, as that is a telltale sign of a weak writer.
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Espada12

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#16 Espada12
Member since 2008 • 23247 Posts

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

Good read, especially about lincoln.. wasn't he also a slave owner?

spazzx625

No...He wasn't

Ah ok. People paint him in such a good light but XxhopelessXX has shown us the truth!! On a side note ppl are really wierd on here, that wall of text only takes like 10 mins to read.

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scorch-62

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#17 scorch-62
Member since 2006 • 29763 Posts

But..but...:cry:Xx_Hopeless_xX

No means no.

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Xx_Hopeless_xX

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#18 Xx_Hopeless_xX
Member since 2009 • 16562 Posts

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]But..but...:cry:scorch-62

No means no.

Fine then..*runs away crying* :cry:..

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Xx_Hopeless_xX

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#19 Xx_Hopeless_xX
Member since 2009 • 16562 Posts
I take it this is an essay for school? If so, I would get rid of questions in your conclusions, as that is a telltale sign of a weak writer.Mousetaches
No, it's actually not an essay for school..I wrote it all for the kind people of OT :P..
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#20 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

Good read Hopeless. Took me like..5 minutes to get through. I believe if the slaves were deported and we introduced the South to the idea of Industrial work it may have been avoided. Lincoln should not have sent 75,000 troops to quell the rebellion either.

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#21 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

I think the "Very long Read" in the Title scared a lot of people away :lol:

Might want to edit it.

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Bloodseeker23

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#22 Bloodseeker23
Member since 2008 • 8338 Posts
Great read. I approve of this message.
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#23 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 38938 Posts
words are cool
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#24 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

Great read. I approve of this message.Bloodseeker23

I approve as well:

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#25 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts
words are coolcomp_atkins
What does that mean? :?
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#26 Plzhelpmelearn
Member since 2010 • 1270 Posts

I refuse to believe anything other than the North was completely innocent and noble in their attempts to free the slaves from the tyranny and greed of the south.

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#27 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

I refuse to believe anything other than the North was completely innocent and noble in their attempts to free the slaves from the tyranny and greed of the south.

Plzhelpmelearn
I can't tell if you're being serious :P
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#28 LZ71
Member since 2008 • 10524 Posts
Why do you call it the War of the States? :?
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#29 th3warr1or
Member since 2007 • 20637 Posts
It would've been epic if he had thrown in a "to cut a long story short" somewhere in the second paragraph.
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#30 LZ71
Member since 2008 • 10524 Posts
It would've been epic if he had thrown in a "to cut a long story short" somewhere in the second paragraph. th3warr1or
Or finished it with a Bel-Air.
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#31 vidplayer8
Member since 2006 • 18549 Posts

Interesting read. I did learn about a lot of this in some of my history classes, my AP U.S teacher was sure to get across the point that Slavery was not a major factor. Although I didn't know about the Cherokee inolvement.

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#32 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

Why do you call it the War of the States? :?LZ71
That's what it's called. "The American Civil War (1861–1865), also known as the War Between the States as well as several other names, was a civil war in the United States of America. "

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#33 Xx_Hopeless_xX
Member since 2009 • 16562 Posts
words are coolcomp_atkins
Uhm..i suppose..so..
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#34 LZ71
Member since 2008 • 10524 Posts

[QUOTE="LZ71"]Why do you call it the War of the States? :?Snipes_2

That's what it's called. "The American Civil War (1861–1865), also known as the War Between the States as well as several other names, was a civil war in the United States of America. "

Yes, I know. But I don't understand why he didn't just call it the name most Americans know it by: the Civil War. Unless his name choice played an important role in his essay, then that's fine (I have no idea, you can't expect me to read all that, this is a forum).
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#35 Plzhelpmelearn
Member since 2010 • 1270 Posts

[QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"]

I refuse to believe anything other than the North was completely innocent and noble in their attempts to free the slaves from the tyranny and greed of the south.

Snipes_2

I can't tell if you're being serious :P

Well, we won so don't we get to say what happened? :P

Seriously though it was a pretty good read. I was aware that the war was more about state rights vs. federal authority than slavery, but I was unaware as to how a lot of misinterpretation (such as the justice in the dredd scott case) and demonizing occurred to paint people of opposing views as bad people. It could maybe all have been avoided if both sides tried understanding and listening instead of trying to tear the other side down. This particularly applies to the North it seems.

Just reading about it kind of reminds me of a lot of the stuff that is going on today with the feds and the states clashing about what the Feds can impose on the states and even with individuals who claim the feds are imposing on their individuality (like the tea party movement), with the divide seemingly increasing between liberals and conservatives, it makes me wonder where it could all lead to.

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TwilightTown15

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#36 TwilightTown15
Member since 2009 • 1711 Posts

I really shouldn't have read this right after I woke up, but oh well. It was really good and well thought out. I'll keep this stuff in mind for my history classes; I can hardly pay attention in the actual class. >.>

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#37 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180212 Posts
I did not read that long long essay. But if you're asking for the reason for the war...then it was states rights vs federal rule.....and I assume it's to tie in with today?
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#38 Xx_Hopeless_xX
Member since 2009 • 16562 Posts
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="LZ71"]Why do you call it the War of the States? :?LZ71

That's what it's called. "The American Civil War (1861–1865), also known as the War Between the States as well as several other names, was a civil war in the United States of America. "

Yes, I know. But I don't understand why he didn't just call it the name most Americans know it by: the Civil War. Unless his name choice played an important role in his essay, then that's fine (I have no idea, you can't expect me to read all that, this is a forum).

Well to call it a Civil War is not very accurate..as i found out...since neither side was fighting to control a nation's government..
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#39 Xx_Hopeless_xX
Member since 2009 • 16562 Posts

I did not read that long long essay. But if you're asking for the reason for the war...then it was states rights vs federal rule.....and I assume it's to tie in with today?LJS9502_basic
I was actually just asking the people of OT to try and think of ways in which the War may have been avoided..:x..and by pointing out what i did i was attempting to give them something to go by when thinking of things..but i guess it could actually tie into what's happening now as well..

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#40 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180212 Posts

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]I did not read that long long essay. But if you're asking for the reason for the war...then it was states rights vs federal rule.....and I assume it's to tie in with today?Xx_Hopeless_xX

I was actually just asking the people of OT to try and think of ways in which the War may have been avoided..:x..and by pointing out what i did i was attempting to give them something to go by when thinking of things..but i guess it could actually tie into what's happening now as well..

As with any war....compromise can avoid it. Sorry...thought more deeply then.:P
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#41 LZ71
Member since 2008 • 10524 Posts

[QUOTE="LZ71"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] That's what it's called. "The American Civil War (1861–1865), also known as the War Between the States as well as several other names, was a civil war in the United States of America. "

Xx_Hopeless_xX

Yes, I know. But I don't understand why he didn't just call it the name most Americans know it by: the Civil War. Unless his name choice played an important role in his essay, then that's fine (I have no idea, you can't expect me to read all that, this is a forum).

Well to call it a Civil War is not very accurate..as i found out...since neither side was fighting to control a nation's government..

From Wiki:

"A civil war is a war between organized groups within the same nation state, or, less commonly, between two countries created from a formerly-united nation-state. The aim of one side may be to take control of the country or a region, to achieve independence for a region, or to change government policies."

I think it's fair to call it a Civil War.

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#42 Xx_Hopeless_xX
Member since 2009 • 16562 Posts
[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]I did not read that long long essay. But if you're asking for the reason for the war...then it was states rights vs federal rule.....and I assume it's to tie in with today?LJS9502_basic

I was actually just asking the people of OT to try and think of ways in which the War may have been avoided..:x..and by pointing out what i did i was attempting to give them something to go by when thinking of things..but i guess it could actually tie into what's happening now as well..

As with any war....compromise can avoid it. Sorry...thought more deeply then.:P

That's fine...i do see how you could come to that conclusion though and i wouldn't mind it if it turned into a discussion regarding present day parallels and such..
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#43 Plzhelpmelearn
Member since 2010 • 1270 Posts

Good read Hopeless. Took me like..5 minutes to get through. I believe if the slaves were deported and we introduced the South to the idea of Industrial work it may have been avoided. Lincoln should not have sent 75,000 troops to quell the rebellion either.

Snipes_2
I think by the time Lincoln sent those troops (which the south did instigate by firing on Sumter) it was too late to be avoided, at least with the goals Lincoln had in mind. Lincoln ultimately wanted to preserve the Union at all costs and many southern states by seceding made military action seem like the only method to do it. I think they should have been slower to actually secede until there were no other alternatives. Also, are you saying that deporting the slaves was a good idea?
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#44 Xx_Hopeless_xX
Member since 2009 • 16562 Posts

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"][QUOTE="LZ71"] Yes, I know. But I don't understand why he didn't just call it the name most Americans know it by: the Civil War. Unless his name choice played an important role in his essay, then that's fine (I have no idea, you can't expect me to read all that, this is a forum).LZ71

Well to call it a Civil War is not very accurate..as i found out...since neither side was fighting to control a nation's government..

From Wiki:

"A civil war is a war between organized groups within the same nation state, or, less commonly, between two countries created from a formerly-united nation-state. The aim of one side may be to take control of the country or a region, to achieve independence for a region, or to change government policies."

I think it's fair to call it a Civil War.

I believe it more fair to call it the War of the States or the War for Southern Independence..you call it what you want and i'll call it what i want..
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#45 Plzhelpmelearn
Member since 2010 • 1270 Posts

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"][QUOTE="LZ71"] Yes, I know. But I don't understand why he didn't just call it the name most Americans know it by: the Civil War. Unless his name choice played an important role in his essay, then that's fine (I have no idea, you can't expect me to read all that, this is a forum).LZ71

Well to call it a Civil War is not very accurate..as i found out...since neither side was fighting to control a nation's government..

From Wiki:

"A civil war is a war between organized groups within the same nation state, or, less commonly, between two countries created from a formerly-united nation-state. The aim of one side may be to take control of the country or a region, to achieve independence for a region, or to change government policies."

I think it's fair to call it a Civil War.

or the war of Northern Agression:x

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#46 Xx_Hopeless_xX
Member since 2009 • 16562 Posts
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

Good read Hopeless. Took me like..5 minutes to get through. I believe if the slaves were deported and we introduced the South to the idea of Industrial work it may have been avoided. Lincoln should not have sent 75,000 troops to quell the rebellion either.

Plzhelpmelearn
I think by the time Lincoln sent those troops (which the south did instigate by firing on Sumter) it was too late to be avoided, at least with the goals Lincoln had in mind. Lincoln ultimately wanted to preserve the Union at all costs and many southern states by seceding made military action seem like the only method to do it. I think they should have been slower to actually secede until there were no other alternatives. Also, are you saying that deporting the slaves was a good idea?

There were no casualties at fort Sumter and the South Carolina citizens/militia had every right to fire upon the Fort as it was occupied by troops from the federal government of which they no longer belonged to..
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#47 LZ71
Member since 2008 • 10524 Posts
I believe it more fair to call it the War of the States or the War for Southern Independence..you call it what you want and i'll call it what i want..Xx_Hopeless_xX
All right then.
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#48 Plzhelpmelearn
Member since 2010 • 1270 Posts

[QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

Good read Hopeless. Took me like..5 minutes to get through. I believe if the slaves were deported and we introduced the South to the idea of Industrial work it may have been avoided. Lincoln should not have sent 75,000 troops to quell the rebellion either.

Xx_Hopeless_xX

I think by the time Lincoln sent those troops (which the south did instigate by firing on Sumter) it was too late to be avoided, at least with the goals Lincoln had in mind. Lincoln ultimately wanted to preserve the Union at all costs and many southern states by seceding made military action seem like the only method to do it. I think they should have been slower to actually secede until there were no other alternatives. Also, are you saying that deporting the slaves was a good idea?

There were no casualties at fort Sumter and the South Carolina citizens/militia had every right to fire upon the Fort as it was occupied by troops from the federal government of which they no longer belonged to..

Casualties or no casualties it was still an act of aggression by South Carolina. If there had been casualties would your opinion be different? Because I am pretty sure SC was not purposefully aiming away from people with their canon balls. It is disputable at least as to whether South Carolina had the rights to federal forts held within their boundaries. At the very least they should have offered some concessions in exchange for the forts to try and convince the feds to leave. In hindsight that probably wouldn't have worked considering Lincoln's views, but I think at the very least South Carolina was way out of line by attacking federal troops, thus initiating the violence.

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#49 Xx_Hopeless_xX
Member since 2009 • 16562 Posts
[QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"][QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"][QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"] I think by the time Lincoln sent those troops (which the south did instigate by firing on Sumter) it was too late to be avoided, at least with the goals Lincoln had in mind. Lincoln ultimately wanted to preserve the Union at all costs and many southern states by seceding made military action seem like the only method to do it. I think they should have been slower to actually secede until there were no other alternatives. Also, are you saying that deporting the slaves was a good idea?

There were no casualties at fort Sumter and the South Carolina citizens/militia had every right to fire upon the Fort as it was occupied by troops from the federal government of which they no longer belonged to..

Casualties or no casualties it was still an act of aggression by South Carolina. If there had been casualties would your opinion be different? Because I am pretty sure SC was not purposefully aiming away from people with their canon balls. It is disputable at least as to whether South Carolina had the rights to federal forts held withing their boundaries. At the very least they should have offered some concessions in exchange for the forts to try and convince the feds to leave. In hindsight that probably wouldn't have worked considering Lincoln, but I think at the very least South Carolina was way out of line by attacking federal troops.

Lincoln send provisions..they assumed he was trying to occupy their state...which is understandable..and my opinion would not be different..they had a right to attack those they saw as invaders..
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#50 Plzhelpmelearn
Member since 2010 • 1270 Posts
[QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"][QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"] There were no casualties at fort Sumter and the South Carolina citizens/militia had every right to fire upon the Fort as it was occupied by troops from the federal government of which they no longer belonged to..Xx_Hopeless_xX
Casualties or no casualties it was still an act of aggression by South Carolina. If there had been casualties would your opinion be different? Because I am pretty sure SC was not purposefully aiming away from people with their canon balls. It is disputable at least as to whether South Carolina had the rights to federal forts held withing their boundaries. At the very least they should have offered some concessions in exchange for the forts to try and convince the feds to leave. In hindsight that probably wouldn't have worked considering Lincoln, but I think at the very least South Carolina was way out of line by attacking federal troops.

Lincoln send provisions..they assumed he was trying to occupy their state...which is understandable..and my opinion would not be different..they had a right to attack those they saw as invaders..

Invaders? C'mon, these are their fellow countrymen we are talking about here, by labeling them invaders you are drastically oversimplifying the situation. Until South Carolina seceded the federal government had jurisdiction there, and to expect them to hand over all their stuff to SC with no strings attached is a little bit far fetched I'd say.. Buchanan and Lincoln had the right to send provisions considering it was a federal fort. They had no right to fire on these men considering, to my knowledge, they made no attempt at reaching a peaceful agreement besides giving them an ultimatum to leave or die.