There is no question that an omnipotent all-loving God does not exist...

Whoever believes it is really liviing in delusions. He is either not omnipotent or is not all-loving. Just yesterday I saw an accident where a pedestrian got destroyed by a car, God damn that guy was a broken mess and was in a world of hurt, His wife had gone crazy looking at him and who wouldnt looking at the broken mess of a loved one. The more I look at the world and the more my belief in God "dwindles". :(

Why did He make things like blood? Why did He make death? Why is it so bloody painful? Just why is there soooo much pain? Humans try so hard to help each other and God who is apparantly more merciful than anybody else doesnt do anything with all His powers? I didnt even know that guy and was desperately wishing for his pain to go away.

It really points me to believe that maybe absolutely nobody has power over nature, that would explain the brutality of it. Let's not even get into the brutality of natural selection....let's not even talk about inoocent women getting raped and\or getting spit burning liquid in their faces...

I am NOT saying that there is no God, I believe in one and am still a christian, however provided He is omnipotent, I really will never believe no matter what that He is all-loving...

God is full of hate cos he never got laid

God is full of hate cos he never got laid

vitriolboy

[QUOTE="vitriolboy"]

God is full of hate cos he never got laid

AncientNecro

There was no touching involved

Just you wait. Someone will be here soon enough to tell you that all the bad stuff in the world is man's fault because of his sin nature. See, the easy way to maintain a belief in an all-loving God is to blame everything bad in the world on something else - namely ourselves.

To be honest, I've come to the conclusion that, no matter how bad this world might be, it could not be worse than a world in which nothing exists but happy things and in which nothing ever goes wrong. I've met people who have lived very sheltered lives and who have never really suffered pain and loss, and I have to say, it was pretty darn striking the way in which they seemed to be fundamentally not whole people. There was always something missing in their eyes, some lack of understanding of what it truly meant to be content in life in the face of adversity. The only thing that allows us to truly appreciate the good in life is the very real existence of the bad. When we're sick, simply being in good health again is enough to make us happy, but once we're used to being in good health, it's no longer enough, and the more we allow ourselves to get used to what's right in life, the less we care about the basics and the higher our standards climb until we're finally in the state that nothing makes us truly happy anymore.

Of course, there are two big questions that could be asked in response to this:

1. If God is truly omnipotent, could he not have made it possible for us to be permanently satisfied with the basics in life; and

2. What about the people who never truly know happiness until the day they die?

And I don't really have anything resembling an authoritative answer to these questions. But I can say, however, that I nonetheless cannot believe that any being that would make us capable of love and happiness could possibly be one that does not love us very much, because it would be incredibly easy to make the world one without love and happiness of any kind.

Just you wait. Someone will be here soon enough to tell you that all the bad stuff in the world is man's fault because of his sin nature. See, the easy way to maintain a belief in an all-loving God is to blame everything bad in the world on something else - namely ourselves.pianist

Well, I do think that we definitely do these things to ourselves, and that blaming God for the bad things that humans do doesn't make much sense.

But I don't presume to have all the answers, and I will certainly concede that the above is far from a conclusive response to the question of evil.

Just you wait. Someone will be here soon enough to tell you that all the bad stuff in the world is man's fault because of his sin nature. See, the easy way to maintain a belief in an all-loving God is to blame everything bad in the world on something else - namely ourselves.

pianist

First of all the huge disparity in looks is no-one's fault and it's really one of the root of many bad things in the world, it creates depression, jealousy and hatred towards others. And that accident I saw unless someone was drunk is again nobody's fault...

If God exists, everyone gets to heaven. He's the master of forgivness, or atleast he requires us to forgive everyhting and everyone. So why care about if he exists or not, or if we do bad things or not, if he exists we still get to heaven.

[QUOTE="AncientNecro"][QUOTE="vitriolboy"]

God is full of hate cos he never got laid

vitriolboy

There was no touching involved

Projectile pregnancy!

God dosent exist full stop. im sorry but take a look around youHenderson112

2nd that.

I've never understood that argument. It's like saying a parent doesn't exist because bad things happen to their children. Just because you create something doesn't mean you have full control over it.AirGuitarist87

It's more a question of the supposed qualities of omnipotence and omnibenevolence that are traditionally ascribed to God - many see a fundamental contradiction between the combination of those two traits and the suffering that is so common in the world.

[QUOTE="Henderson112"]God dosent exist full stop. im sorry but take a look around youTheFragcat

2nd that.

Can God create a rock so big he can't lift it? OOooooooooOOOOooooooooooo 0_o"

Anyway, the problem is if you want to try and disprove God you're gonna have to come up with something better than, look at the pain in the world. Religious types will just come back at you with God's plan etc. and even if you come from a dysteleological point of view, it's usually the same response and no matter how many philosophers in the past have tried (a good modern day example is Richard Dawkins) this will always be a battle between believer and non-believers which will most likely never be resolved. I guess you'll have to be satisfied with being convicted with your opinion.

Everytime I come to OT now there is a god thread going on the front page posted by someone with a relatively low total post count.......why?

I was thinking the same thing, they always end up the same way :P

[QUOTE="AirGuitarist87"]I've never understood that argument. It's like saying a parent doesn't exist because bad things happen to their children. Just because you create something doesn't mean you have full control over it.GabuEx

It's more a question of the supposed qualities of omnipotence and omnibenevolence that are traditionally ascribed to God - many see a fundamental contradiction between the combination of those two traits and the suffering that is so common in the world.

Well, I do think that we definitely do these things to ourselves, and that blaming God for the bad things that humans do doesn't make much sense. But I don't presume to have all the answers, and I will certainly concede that the above is far from a conclusive response to the question of evil.GabuEx

What I don't get is the structure of the argument of "is there a God". In all other forms of human society theory turns into fact after tests and proof. If I was to claim that Wi-Fi causes cancer then I better have some evidence to back me up. However it seems only where religion is concerned that this doesn't come into place and the default assumption is that there is until proven that there isn't. I think you can agree that it is a lot easier to prove something exists than to prove that it doesn't, yet the best argument I ever get from any religious person is to have faith. I'm sorry but that doesn't cut it, we no longer live in tents and caves and pray to the sun, hoping the gods will let it rain for a good crop this season. We live in an age of science and technology, fact and fiction. I may not be able to prove without doubt that there isn't a god but I will bet everything I own that you can't prove there is.

I always like to go back thousands of years to the mass of other religion humans have invented throughout history. Greeks believed in sun gods and water gods, now a days we have full proof that they were wrong in thinking that the sun was pulled round the earth by a dude in a chariot. What makes modern religions any different? Human understanding might just not have reached the point where can comprehend the origin of all existence, but I would rather say "hey, I don't know lets find out" then just making up ridiculous stories for future generations to look back and laugh at.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]Well, I do think that we definitely do these things to ourselves, and that blaming God for the bad things that humans do doesn't make much sense. But I don't presume to have all the answers, and I will certainly concede that the above is far from a conclusive response to the question of evil.Funky_Llama

I believe in some God. He may be all-loving but he's not that powerful. If God is all-powerful can he...

1. make a square circle?

Or...

2. make a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?

3. stop the sun from shining for 2 days so there will be total darkness or night for 2 consecutive days?

4. make the earth go more distant from the sun every year?

5. part the sea again as to let people cross as he did in Exodus?

6. make it snow and rain in the Sahara desert for about a month or two?

I know you are not allowed to test God and that God is not obliged to prove anything to us but my point is that if God is really all-powerful he will probably want to demonstate his power to us and by that make everyone believe in him. My rationality tells me that God is no way all-powerful and cannot violate the laws of physics as we currently understand them.

you're not believing in god for all the wrong reasons lol

all the stuff you said + a shread of common sense and abstract thought = laughably obvious

just never stop being skeptical and questioning things, most adults reach a point where they just stop asking questions

To be honest, I've come to the conclusion that, no matter how bad this world might be, it could not be worse than a world in which nothing exists but happy things and in which nothing ever goes wrong.

GabuEx

I am sure you realise the huge problem arising here...

I believe in some God. He may be all-loving but he's not that powerful. If God is all-powerful can he...

1. make a square circle?

Or...

2. make a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?

3. stop the sun from shining for 2 days so there will be total darkness or night for 2 consecutive days?

4. make the earth go more distant from the sun every year?

5. part the sea again as to let people cross as he did in Exodus?

6. make it snow and rain in the Sahara desert for about a month or two?X4D

Going by Thomas Aquinas' definition of omnipotence the answers are 1. No 2. No 3. Yes 4. Yes 5. Yes 6. Yes

Going by Descarte's definition of omnipotence every answer concerning what God can do is yes

I know you are not allowed to test God and that God is not obliged to prove anything to us but my point is that if God is really all-powerful he will probably want to demonstate his power to us and by that make everyone believe in him. My rationality tells me that God is no way all-powerful and cannot violate the laws of physics as we currently understand them.

X4D

The italicised contradicts the bolded.

Why would an all-powerful being not be able to violate the laws of physics?

god is so human lol....so human

the real truths of the universe will be far more interesting

Going by Thomas Aquinas' definition of omnipotence the answers are 1. No 2. No 3. Yes 4. Yes 5. Yes 6. Yes

Going by Descarte's definition of omnipotence every answer concerning what God can do is yesdomatron23

Then I like to believe that they are both wrong or their interpretation of the question is different from mine. I don't think God has any power over the sun, over the mechanics of the heavens and over the seas. It's possible that he had 2000 years ago when he did all these miracles mentioned in the Bible but this cannot be proven and right now he seems to have absolutely no control over it and his powers are rather weak.

The italicised contradicts the bolded.

Why would an all-powerful being not be able to violate the laws of physics?

dematron23

It would but evidence suggests that an all-powerful being does not exist and maybe cannot exist.

God is pretty neglectful and malovent. There are people dieing everyday and have so many diseases yet God could take all that away. BUT FREEWILL!!11 that's a pretty weak arguement.

god is so human lol....so human

the real truths of the universe will be far more interestingBobSacamento

I think I like to agree with Keith Mayes here. God-believers and religious people like to scare you to believe in God and if you don't you'll go to hell. Religion can also be a powerful tool to terrorize people and control them. So everything should be taken with a deep grain of salt.

God is all powerful and omnipotent it tells you in the Bible

Jeremiah 32:27 (New International Version)

27 "I am the LORD, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me?

Matthew 19:26 (New International Version)

26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Translated it means God can do anything

Yay! The old "If god is good then why is there evil?" topic! Well according to the christian belief, originally there was none of that stuff you mentioned. He would have preferred the earth to stay like that, a perfect paradise without death, suffering, or evil. But of course he didn't want us to be mindless robots that where only good because we didn't have a choice. So he had ONE rule, don't eat from that tree over there. Adam and Eve did, they where cursed, and the curse spread across the entire stinking earth. Yell at them, not God.Head_of_games

Because you're supposed to look at all the horrors of the world, and say, thanks God, I know there's a meaning to all this.

Y'know, like any rational person would do.

Because you're supposed to look at all the horrors of the world, and say, thanks God, I know there's a meaning to all this.

Y'know, like any rational person would do.

RadBooley

You mean to tell me.

God had a plan for those people who died in holocaust and we just have to wait and say "God has a meaning for this"

Yous trollin

[QUOTE="RadBooley"]

Because you're supposed to look at all the horrors of the world, and say, thanks God, I know there's a meaning to all this.

Y'know, like any rational person would do.

Epic__Lulz

You mean to tell me.

God had a plan for those people who died in holocaust and we just have to wait and say "God has a meaning for this"

Yous trollin

Actually, it was pure sarcasm. :?

[QUOTE="RadBooley"]

Because you're supposed to look at all the horrors of the world, and say, thanks God, I know there's a meaning to all this.

Y'know, like any rational person would do.

Epic__Lulz

You mean to tell me.

God had a plan for those people who died in holocaust and we just have to wait and say "God has a meaning for this"

Yous trollin

[QUOTE="Epic__Lulz"]

[QUOTE="RadBooley"]

Because you're supposed to look at all the horrors of the world, and say, thanks God, I know there's a meaning to all this.

Y'know, like any rational person would do.

RadBooley

You mean to tell me.

God had a plan for those people who died in holocaust and we just have to wait and say "God has a meaning for this"

Yous trollin

Actually, it was pure sarcasm. :?

Sorry

[QUOTE="Head_of_games"]Yay! The old "If god is good then why is there evil?" topic! Well according to the christian belief, originally there was none of that stuff you mentioned. He would have preferred the earth to stay like that, a perfect paradise without death, suffering, or evil. But of course he didn't want us to be mindless robots that where only good because we didn't have a choice. So he had ONE rule, don't eat from that tree over there. Adam and Eve did, they where cursed, and the curse spread across the entire stinking earth. Yell at them, not God.bean-with-bacon

To be honest, I've come to the conclusion that, no matter how bad this world might be, it could not be worse than a world in which nothing exists but happy things and in which nothing ever goes wrong. I've met people who have lived very sheltered lives and who have never really suffered pain and loss, and I have to say, it was pretty darn striking the way in which they seemed to be fundamentally not whole people. There was always something missing in their eyes, some lack of understanding of what it truly meant to be content in life in the face of adversity. The only thing that allows us to truly appreciate the good in life is the very real existence of the bad. When we're sick, simply being in good health again is enough to make us happy, but once we're used to being in good health, it's no longer enough, and the more we allow ourselves to get used to what's right in life, the less we care about the basics and the higher our standards climb until we're finally in the state that nothing makes us truly happy anymore.

Of course, there are two big questions that could be asked in response to this:

1. If God is truly omnipotent, could he not have made it possible for us to be permanently satisfied with the basics in life; and

2. What about the people who never truly know happiness until the day they die?

And I don't really have anything resembling an authoritative answer to these questions. But I can say, however, that I nonetheless cannot believe that any being that would make us capable of love and happiness could possibly be one that does not love us very much, because it would be incredibly easy to make the world one without love and happiness of any kind.

[QUOTE="pianist"]Just you wait. Someone will be here soon enough to tell you that all the bad stuff in the world is man's fault because of his sin nature. See, the easy way to maintain a belief in an all-loving God is to blame everything bad in the world on something else - namely ourselves.GabuEx

Well, I do think that we definitely do these things to ourselves, and that blaming God for the bad things that humans do doesn't make much sense.

But I don't presume to have all the answers, and I will certainly concede that the above is far from a conclusive response to the question of evil.

Good to know. I'm sure your blog would like this info as well.

[QUOTE="bean-with-bacon"][QUOTE="Head_of_games"]Yay! The old "If god is good then why is there evil?" topic! Well according to the christian belief, originally there was none of that stuff you mentioned. He would have preferred the earth to stay like that, a perfect paradise without death, suffering, or evil. But of course he didn't want us to be mindless robots that where only good because we didn't have a choice. So he had ONE rule, don't eat from that tree over there. Adam and Eve did, they where cursed, and the curse spread across the entire stinking earth. Yell at them, not God.Head_of_games

[QUOTE="Head_of_games"][QUOTE="bean-with-bacon"] When Eve ate that apple she had no knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil, it is like holding a baby responsible for doing something immoral, they don't understand the difference.bean-with-bacon

You're overlooking the tempting snake aspect. . .Eve did obey God at first, and when the snake told her to do otherwise, her first response was "but God said no. . ."

[QUOTE="bean-with-bacon"][QUOTE="Head_of_games"] Of course she did, she wasn't stupid! God said, DO NOT EAT FROM THIS TREE, and she did knowing full well that the creator of the universe told her not to.Theokhoth

You're overlooking the tempting snake aspect. . .Eve did obey God at first, and when the snake told her to do otherwise, her first response was "but God said no. . ."