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theone86

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#101 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

[QUOTE="BuryMe"]

[QUOTE="mccoyca112"]

Yeah, I speak from the experience of my father. I have nothing but kind words when I speak of him. He didn't do it recklessly. What I see as actual abuse is a parent getting a little drunk one night, and a child has the unfortunate luck of being around the house at the time being; Anything remotely close to having no justifiable reason in the parents eyes other than disdain, etc. The extent of acceptable psychical punishment can be stretched or shrunk to one's eyes, but I see abuse as a beating without reason.

mccoyca112

What you've said there pretty much opens the door for parents to do absolutely anything to their kids, so long as they feel they have a reason.

I certainly wont deny that. Fact remains, that's a belting. We don't even know the underlying context of that video. Was the kid talking back after her "twerk"? Giving attitude like she's the queen bee? Whelp, who knows. I digress. A belt is nothing. Ever been whipped by a sturdy thin tree branch? Trust me, you don't want it. I loved my gram to death, but damn she knew how to use it if we were out of line. As my previous posts have stated, I've seen worse, and that kid is doing better in life than I am.(for reasons unrelated to "abuse") I also cant side against it since it didn't mess me psychologically. & How could I? That'd be like giving up video games because "studies" proved gaming caused it. Self restraint plays both sides of that. The bad can outweigh the good perhaps, but only if the parent/guardian allows it. I see it as a slightly hefty whipping made extreme with extreme screaming Others, quite the opposite.

 

Comparing who was beat worse is a glorified pissing contest, worse since it's masochistic.  Next you wanna pull out our d*cks and see whose is bigger?

Psychological damage isn't always easy to spot.  Who's to say your friend, or you for that matter, isn't hiding it?  And what's the baseline we're comparing it against?  We don't exactly have an effective control when it comes to personal experience.  These "studies" do have controls, and they show a significant difference from the experimental group.

Again, most rational people take "studies" that rely on proven methods of experimentation over anecdotal evidence.  The fact that you keep positing your own opinion as carrying more weight than science isn't helping your case at all.

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coolbeans90

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#102 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

Light physical discipline on kids younger than teenagers is one thing. That, however, was straight up abusive.

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MakeMeaSammitch

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#103 MakeMeaSammitch
Member since 2012 • 4889 Posts

[QUOTE="MakeMeaSammitch"]

[QUOTE="Shottayouth13-"] You falsely assume that one child rearing method will work for all children. All children are not the same. In any event, show me these facts.Shottayouth13-

Boom

That's an iq/aggression study.

Not everybody is the same, but trends can be recognized, as can mistakes in discipline.

You do realize that they're more variables than right? The effectiveness of the parent is a HUGE factor that must be taken into account as well as a host of other things like socioeconomic conditions while growing up. That study didn't mention any of that. I'm still not seeing a cause and effect.

hmmm, I don't know how I could convince you then.

all I can do is continue to show you studies.

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IdioticIcarus

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#104 IdioticIcarus
Member since 2012 • 2167 Posts
I just don't understand how some of you can watch that video and think that the father is totally in the right.
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chrisrooR

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#105 chrisrooR
Member since 2007 • 9027 Posts
I just don't understand how some of you can watch that video and think that the father is totally in the right.IdioticIcarus
People on these forums all come from different backgrounds, and some have probably experienced similar stuff. Nobody wants to think of their parent as being a 'bad' parent, so naturally people will try and rationalize this kind of abuse. I thank random chance that I was born into a family where I was never hit once, and I have two loving parents who supported my emotional and psychological development. I'm a firm believer that hitting children is never the answer.
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mccoyca112

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#106 mccoyca112
Member since 2007 • 5434 Posts

[QUOTE="mccoyca112"]

[QUOTE="BuryMe"]What you've said there pretty much opens the door for parents to do absolutely anything to their kids, so long as they feel they have a reason.

theone86

I certainly wont deny that. Fact remains, that's a belting. We don't even know the underlying context of that video. Was the kid talking back after her "twerk"? Giving attitude like she's the queen bee? Whelp, who knows. I digress. A belt is nothing. Ever been whipped by a sturdy thin tree branch? Trust me, you don't want it. I loved my gram to death, but damn she knew how to use it if we were out of line. As my previous posts have stated, I've seen worse, and that kid is doing better in life than I am.(for reasons unrelated to "abuse") I also cant side against it since it didn't mess me psychologically. & How could I? That'd be like giving up video games because "studies" proved gaming caused it. Self restraint plays both sides of that. The bad can outweigh the good perhaps, but only if the parent/guardian allows it. I see it as a slightly hefty whipping made extreme with extreme screaming Others, quite the opposite.

 

Comparing who was beat worse is a glorified pissing contest, worse since it's masochistic.  Next you wanna pull out our d*cks and see whose is bigger?

Psychological damage isn't always easy to spot.  Who's to say your friend, or you for that matter, isn't hiding it?  And what's the baseline we're comparing it against?  We don't exactly have an effective control when it comes to personal experience.  These "studies" do have controls, and they show a significant difference from the experimental group.

Again, most rational people take "studies" that rely on proven methods of experimentation over anecdotal evidence.  The fact that you keep positing your own opinion as carrying more weight than science isn't helping your case at all.

I suppose you could call it a pissing contest. That's fair, truly. What I'm calling it however, is a disagreement as to what is actually harsh. I don't see it. It doesn't help that I don't know the full story.

He's not my friend. He's my cousin. We're like brothers, and hung out almost every couple of day, until recently since his life schedule is crammed. We talked personal matters alot. Hell, he told me he thought he was bi one time. (He wasn't, just confused). I know the deal. You know what he complains about now? His girlfriend harping him. Not his kid, or his job, or anxiety. His hotheaded girl. (1st edit) Me? I have nothing to hide. It's a forum. Anonymous. And a gaming forum(2nd edit) at that. I know some people have a status to uphold here(look no further than systen wars when it comes to ass kissing), but I dropped that act before I even hit High school.

Studies can be helpful, sure, but context matters. We're their parents around much, did they often ignore them and/or not apply themselves when the child was in need for something, what was the extent of the beating and is that the only thing causing them to feel like they do. I refer you to my post about the video game scapegoat for a slight comparison.

I'm not attempting to have my opinion seem more hefty than quote on quote *science; Im saying I came out more than okay, my cousin too, and what is considered abuse is subjective(3'rd edit, look at previous posts) Nothing more.

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WiiCubeM1

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#107 WiiCubeM1
Member since 2009 • 4735 Posts

I was beat as a child quite often with the metal end of the belt.

I'd be lying if I said I support beatings and I'm going to use them on my kids often, but it's not like I turned out as some kind of depressed emo who hates humanity. Good, old-fashioned discipline can work for the better if used in the right situation, like vandalism or something else major, not destroying an ants nest on accident (happened to me once. Also didn't get supper).

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theone86

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#108 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="mccoyca112"]

I certainly wont deny that. Fact remains, that's a belting. We don't even know the underlying context of that video. Was the kid talking back after her "twerk"? Giving attitude like she's the queen bee? Whelp, who knows. I digress. A belt is nothing. Ever been whipped by a sturdy thin tree branch? Trust me, you don't want it. I loved my gram to death, but damn she knew how to use it if we were out of line. As my previous posts have stated, I've seen worse, and that kid is doing better in life than I am.(for reasons unrelated to "abuse") I also cant side against it since it didn't mess me psychologically. & How could I? That'd be like giving up video games because "studies" proved gaming caused it. Self restraint plays both sides of that. The bad can outweigh the good perhaps, but only if the parent/guardian allows it. I see it as a slightly hefty whipping made extreme with extreme screaming Others, quite the opposite.

 

mccoyca112

Comparing who was beat worse is a glorified pissing contest, worse since it's masochistic.  Next you wanna pull out our d*cks and see whose is bigger?

Psychological damage isn't always easy to spot.  Who's to say your friend, or you for that matter, isn't hiding it?  And what's the baseline we're comparing it against?  We don't exactly have an effective control when it comes to personal experience.  These "studies" do have controls, and they show a significant difference from the experimental group.

Again, most rational people take "studies" that rely on proven methods of experimentation over anecdotal evidence.  The fact that you keep positing your own opinion as carrying more weight than science isn't helping your case at all.

I suppose you could call it a pissing contest. That's fair, truly. What I'm calling it however, is a disagreement as to what is actually harsh. I don't see it. It doesn't help that I don't know the full story.

He's not my friend. He's my cousin. We're like brothers, and hung out almost every couple of day, until recently since his life schedule is crammed. We talked personal matters alot. Hell, he told me he thought he was bi one time. (He wasn't, just confused). I know the deal. You know what he complains about now? His girlfriend harping him. Not his kid, or his job, or anxiety. His hotheaded girl. (1st edit) Me? I have nothing to hide. It's a forum. Anonymous. And a gaming forum(2nd edit) at that. I know some people have a status to uphold here(look no further than systen wars when it comes to ass kissing), but I dropped that act before I even hit High school.

Studies can be helpful, sure, but context matters. We're their parents around much, did they often ignore them and/or not apply themselves when the child was in need for something, what was the extent of the beating and is that the only thing causing them to feel like they do. I refer you to my post about the video game scapegoat for a slight comparison.

I'm not attempting to have my opinion seem more hefty than quote on quote *science; Im saying I came out more than okay, my cousin too, and what is considered abuse is subjective(3'rd edit, look at previous posts) Nothing more.

Your attempt to distill everything down to subjective opinion is a weak attempt at argumentation.  When you're comparing one beating to another it's a pissing contest, plain and simple.  Whether or not a beating is harsh is irrelevant, a beating is a beating is a beating and no one on this side of the argument is defending beatings no matter how harsh they are.  That your beatings may or may not have been harsher than the one in the video is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Psychological damage is not always easy to spot.  It's often repressed and can often manifest in very subtle ways.  Perhaps he doesn't even know he's damaged, in which case how would you know?  And perhaps there are other ways in which such beatings have affected him, as I said there is no baseline to compare it to, no control.  This is why scientific studies are FAR more relibale than your anecdotal evidence and why your continued attempts to raise such evidence above scientific evidence are futile and ineffective.  

Besides, we're not trying to say that every person that's beat as a child turns into a raving sociopath who can't function in society, the effects of child abuse are often far more nuanced than that.  Yes, every child turns out differently and yes there are other factors to consider, that just supports our argument.  Perhaps you or your cousin or both of you managed to make it through relatively unscathed because of other factors that worked in your favor, but if beatings are acceptable then it negatively impacts those children who don't have those same factors working in their favor.

As for context, though, you're barking up the wrong tree.  As I keep telling you, studies are specifically designed to account for various factors through the use of controls.  Studies have found that beating a child, on the aggregate, produces negative effects regardless of environment (though frankly, less attentive parents are far more likely to beat their children).  The use of violence in discipline has not only been found to be consistently damaging but completely ineffective.  If children who receive such punishments turn out to be undamaged and disciplined it is because of some other mitigating factor, not because such punishment can be good in the right circumstances.

You're opening up a huge can of worms with the video game comparison.  Suffice it to say if you're going to argue from analogy you should at least show the relevance of the analogy and not just say "well, video game studies, so yeah."

You say you're not trying to elevate your opinion above scientific studies, and then try to elevate your opinion above scientific studies.  All you are offering is anecdotal evidence, that doesn't carry the same weight as a legitimate study.  And what is considered abuse is not subjective, that's what we're all trying to say.  It is established by legitimate scientific studies, not a bunch of people comparing whom was hit harder as a child and drawing some line based on personal experience alone.

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theone86

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#109 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

I was beat as a child quite often with the metal end of the belt.

I'd be lying if I said I support beatings and I'm going to use them on my kids often, but it's not like I turned out as some kind of depressed emo who hates humanity. Good, old-fashioned discipline can work for the better if used in the right situation, like vandalism or something else major, not destroying an ants nest on accident (happened to me once. Also didn't get supper).

WiiCubeM1

Physical discipline isn't supposed to be violent and painful.  It's supposed to cause minor physical discomfort at a young enough age when such discipline, administered properly, can condition the child to avoid repeating the behavior.  Think of Skinnerian behaviorist experiments on animals, they shock them for performing a restricted behavior but it's not going to make them piss themselves or anything.  It's a mild shock, just enough to develop an aversion.  Using physical discipline in extreme situations and when the child is older isn't going to help anything.  The goal is for things to not reach that point in the first place, and if they do then the situation probably requires therapy.

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Angie7F

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#110 Angie7F
Member since 2011 • 1175 Posts

I think a little bit hear and there is necessary.

Sometimes logic and reasoning is too much for a kid to understand and a bit of pain here and there can help.

I

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Innovazero2000

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#111 Innovazero2000
Member since 2006 • 3159 Posts

Light physical discipline on kids younger than teenagers is one thing. That, however, was straight up abusive.

coolbeans90
Agreed, it was very clear that dad was uncontrollably angry. I have no issues with physical discipline say over the a**, but uncontrollably whipping somebody with an object over the entire body is abuse. What if she got caught in the eye with the end of that cord? Point blank it was entirely the wrong way to go about it.
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WiiCubeM1

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#112 WiiCubeM1
Member since 2009 • 4735 Posts

[QUOTE="WiiCubeM1"]

I was beat as a child quite often with the metal end of the belt.

I'd be lying if I said I support beatings and I'm going to use them on my kids often, but it's not like I turned out as some kind of depressed emo who hates humanity. Good, old-fashioned discipline can work for the better if used in the right situation, like vandalism or something else major, not destroying an ants nest on accident (happened to me once. Also didn't get supper).

theone86

Physical discipline isn't supposed to be violent and painful.  It's supposed to cause minor physical discomfort at a young enough age when such discipline, administered properly, can condition the child to avoid repeating the behavior.  Think of Skinnerian behaviorist experiments on animals, they shock them for performing a restricted behavior but it's not going to make them piss themselves or anything.  It's a mild shock, just enough to develop an aversion.  Using physical discipline in extreme situations and when the child is older isn't going to help anything.  The goal is for things to not reach that point in the first place, and if they do then the situation probably requires therapy.

It's all psychological conditioning. As a kid who was raised with this type of discipline, I attempt to rationalize it in a way to seem humane and necessary. despite knowing that any type of physical discipline used against a child should never reach the point of pain. It's just my experience.

Personally, I don't condone physical discipline in any form, mild or not. Human beings aren't animals; we can rationalize why we shouldn't perform certain actions without having to resort to instinctual processes like the need to avoid pain, such as through talks and non-physical punishments, e.g. - groundings, privilege revocation, etc. I should have been much clearer in my original statement (I have a problem with that), but I was actually stating that physical punishments can and do work in a variety of situations, acting more as conditioning through base instincts, but it runs the risk of physical and emotional trauma later in life. In other words, it works, but shouldn't be used due to side effects, like how chopping off your arm after getting bitten by a snake does stop the poison from spreading, but so does tying a tourniquet around the arm. I'd prefer the latter to the former.

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BuryMe

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#113 BuryMe
Member since 2004 • 22017 Posts

[QUOTE="BuryMe"]

[QUOTE="mccoyca112"]

Yeah, I speak from the experience of my father. I have nothing but kind words when I speak of him. He didn't do it recklessly. What I see as actual abuse is a parent getting a little drunk one night, and a child has the unfortunate luck of being around the house at the time being; Anything remotely close to having no justifiable reason in the parents eyes other than disdain, etc. The extent of acceptable psychical punishment can be stretched or shrunk to one's eyes, but I see abuse as a beating without reason.

mccoyca112

What you've said there pretty much opens the door for parents to do absolutely anything to their kids, so long as they feel they have a reason.

I certainly wont deny that. Fact remains, that's a belting. We don't even know the underlying context of that video. Was the kid talking back after her "twerk"? Giving attitude like she's the queen bee? Whelp, who knows. I digress. A belt is nothing. Ever been whipped by a sturdy thin tree branch? Trust me, you don't want it. I loved my gram to death, but damn she knew how to use it if we were out of line. As my previous posts have stated, I've seen worse, and that kid is doing better in life than I am.(for reasons unrelated to "abuse") I also cant side against it since it didn't mess me psychologically. & How could I? That'd be like giving up video games because "studies" proved gaming caused it. Self restraint plays both sides of that. The bad can outweigh the good perhaps, but only if the parent/guardian allows it. I see it as a slightly hefty whipping made extreme with extreme screaming Others, quite the opposite.

Then would it be OK to do something like break your kid's arm for misbehaving?

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Kats_RK

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#114 Kats_RK
Member since 2010 • 2080 Posts

That video was disturbing but even if you beat children some still don't learn.

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dramaybaz

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#115 dramaybaz
Member since 2005 • 6020 Posts
I don't like the twerk anyway.
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Ugalde-

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#116 Ugalde-
Member since 2009 • 3732 Posts
I dont believe in it per say. I have a 10 year old brother(I am 20) and I am the only one he respects between his monther and father. I will be at work and get a phone call that he is misbehaving and all I have to do is get on the phone and tell him stop, and he straightins right up. I have never once hit him. I am very agressive though, I will grab him by the arm and shove him into timeout so fast. I will also leave him in time out for awhile, or take away anything, including food. No, I dont starve him, but I wont let him eat anything enjoyable. Although I have never had to use it I believe in hitting, but not like that. Maybe a slap in mouth , but really if you have some chops, you realy shouldnt have to hit.
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mccoyca112

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#117 mccoyca112
Member since 2007 • 5434 Posts

Then would it be OK to do something like break your kid's arm for misbehaving?

BuryMe

:roll: You betcha

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Nengo_Flow

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#118 Nengo_Flow
Member since 2011 • 10644 Posts

study after study has shown that kids that are beaten or spanked do worse in life financially, are more likely to develop fetishes/mental disorders, are more prone to violence, ect.

So I'm opposed to it.

also, your dad sounds like a terrible parent.

MakeMeaSammitch
my dad? he never hit me. I got my beatings from my mom.
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Palantas

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#119 Palantas
Member since 2002 • 15329 Posts

I think that's a little excessive, but in general I favor physical punishment when necessary. How exactly do you deal with children--who are as$holes, nearly all of them--without physical intervention?

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]

Beating children means they will be damaged as adults.

Nengo_Flow

Im alright.

and pretty much everyone else who was born since the beginning of time and up to the early 1990s turned out alright.

I know, right? Shouldn't we have destroyed the planet a long, long time ago, all growing up batsh!t crazy from spankings?

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theone86

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#120 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="WiiCubeM1"]

I was beat as a child quite often with the metal end of the belt.

I'd be lying if I said I support beatings and I'm going to use them on my kids often, but it's not like I turned out as some kind of depressed emo who hates humanity. Good, old-fashioned discipline can work for the better if used in the right situation, like vandalism or something else major, not destroying an ants nest on accident (happened to me once. Also didn't get supper).

WiiCubeM1

Physical discipline isn't supposed to be violent and painful.  It's supposed to cause minor physical discomfort at a young enough age when such discipline, administered properly, can condition the child to avoid repeating the behavior.  Think of Skinnerian behaviorist experiments on animals, they shock them for performing a restricted behavior but it's not going to make them piss themselves or anything.  It's a mild shock, just enough to develop an aversion.  Using physical discipline in extreme situations and when the child is older isn't going to help anything.  The goal is for things to not reach that point in the first place, and if they do then the situation probably requires therapy.

It's all psychological conditioning. As a kid who was raised with this type of discipline, I attempt to rationalize it in a way to seem humane and necessary. despite knowing that any type of physical discipline used against a child should never reach the point of pain. It's just my experience.

Personally, I don't condone physical discipline in any form, mild or not. Human beings aren't animals; we can rationalize why we shouldn't perform certain actions without having to resort to instinctual processes like the need to avoid pain, such as through talks and non-physical punishments, e.g. - groundings, privilege revocation, etc. I should have been much clearer in my original statement (I have a problem with that), but I was actually stating that physical punishments can and do work in a variety of situations, acting more as conditioning through base instincts, but it runs the risk of physical and emotional trauma later in life. In other words, it works, but shouldn't be used due to side effects, like how chopping off your arm after getting bitten by a snake does stop the poison from spreading, but so does tying a tourniquet around the arm. I'd prefer the latter to the former.

If you want to get technical everything that happens is psycjological conditioning.  What I'm saying is that pain isn't very effective at conditioning, concerns about harming the child aside.  Painful punishments may or may not instill an aversion to the behavior in question, and that can vary due to factors other than the punishment itself.  The most efficacious method utilizes a minimal amount of pain, such as a hand spanking.  Personally I don't think I would spank my child either, but I don't think parents who spank their children at a young age and in a responsible manner are irresponsible.

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megagene

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#121 megagene
Member since 2005 • 23162 Posts
Before I clicked on the video I was expecting a lot worse. The vid just seems a lot more brutal than it is because the kids are screaming way disproportionately louder than how hard he's actually hitting them.