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[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]Nice place to visit; wouldn't want to live there.Virtual_PriceNo outside visitors aloud, I think. They let a few Western tourists in for a guided tour every year.
That post was kind of sarcastic anyway :P
No outside visitors aloud, I think. They let a few Western tourists in for a guided tour every year.[QUOTE="Virtual_Price"][QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]Nice place to visit; wouldn't want to live there.Engrish_Major
That post was kind of sarcastic anyway :P
I know, but I was just sayin.Massive Trolls. In fact I would say they are one of the largest trolls in recent memory. ferrari2001Since when were North Korea an Islamic nation?
I feel really sorry for its inhabitants, the big leaders have completely brainwashed them. Their behavior is completely irrational and dangerous, for themselves and the rest of the world. A reunion between the north and the south will be very difficult, because the differences are way too huge. South Korea will get into an economic crisis if they try to help North Korea.
[QUOTE="ferrari2001"]Massive Trolls. In fact I would say they are one of the largest trolls in recent memory. mywalletsgoneSince when were North Korea an Islamic nation? Islamic nations aren't being nearly as bad as N. Korea.
[QUOTE="mywalletsgone"][QUOTE="ferrari2001"]Massive Trolls. In fact I would say they are one of the largest trolls in recent memory. ferrari2001Since when were North Korea an Islamic nation? Islamic nations aren't being nearly as bad as N. Korea. As a whole I find them more of a threat than an insecure old man somewhere in Asia. I find Islam to be an obnoxious presence in our world.
In my opinion, South Korea > North Korea. Can't really say that I support the North's tactics. Theyare constantly provoking the South with these senseless attacks. The s*** is going to really hit the fan, one day. Why don't they give it a rest already? :roll:
Maybe so, and I'm not going to beat around the bush about it. I hate the faith Islam, but I do not neccisarily hate Muslims.this thread is turning into islam hating rather then NK hating
Harisemo
this thread is turning into islam hating rather then NK hating
Maybe so, and I'm not going to beat around the bush about it. I hate the faith Islam, but I do not neccisarily hate Muslims. how can you hate islam and not hate muslims?[QUOTE="mywalletsgone"][QUOTE="Harisemo"]Maybe so, and I'm not going to beat around the bush about it. I hate the faith Islam, but I do not neccisarily hate Muslims. how can you hate islam and not hate muslims? Simple: Islam is a faith of arbitrary rules that a man named Muhammed allegedly heard in a revelation centuries ago. Muslims are the unfortunate followers of this faith, bound by the so-called word of Allah. Not all muslims want to cut off the hand of a theif, and some are quite progressive in regards to what Sharia Law pertains. However, by definition, to be a good muslim you must accept these doctrines upon which I find obnoxious and quite oppresive.this thread is turning into islam hating rather then NK hating
Harisemo
[QUOTE="Harisemo"][QUOTE="mywalletsgone"] Maybe so, and I'm not going to beat around the bush about it. I hate the faith Islam, but I do not neccisarily hate Muslims.mywalletsgonehow can you hate islam and not hate muslims? Simple: Islam is a faith of arbitrary rules that a man named Muhammed allegedly heard in a revelation centuries ago. Muslims are the unfortunate followers of this faith, bound by the so-called word of Allah. Not all muslims want to cut off the hand of a theif, and some are quite progressive in regards to what Sharia Law pertains. However, by definition, to be a good muslim you must accept these doctrines upon which I find obnoxious and quite oppresive. so you hate good muslims?
[QUOTE="mywalletsgone"][QUOTE="Harisemo"] how can you hate islam and not hate muslims?HarisemoSimple: Islam is a faith of arbitrary rules that a man named Muhammed allegedly heard in a revelation centuries ago. Muslims are the unfortunate followers of this faith, bound by the so-called word of Allah. Not all muslims want to cut off the hand of a theif, and some are quite progressive in regards to what Sharia Law pertains. However, by definition, to be a good muslim you must accept these doctrines upon which I find obnoxious and quite oppresive. so you hate good muslims? I wouldn't use the word "Good" to describe them personally, but I don't think I can reasonably hate "good" muslims for generations and generations before them raising them to be the way they are.
[QUOTE="Harisemo"][QUOTE="mywalletsgone"] Maybe so, and I'm not going to beat around the bush about it. I hate the faith Islam, but I do not neccisarily hate Muslims.mywalletsgonehow can you hate islam and not hate muslims? Simple: Islam is a faith of arbitrary rules that a man named Muhammed allegedly heard in a revelation centuries ago. Muslims are the unfortunate followers of this faith, bound by the so-called word of Allah. Not all muslims want to cut off the hand of a theif, and some are quite progressive in regards to what Sharia Law pertains. However, by definition, to be a good muslim you must accept these doctrines upon which I find obnoxious and quite oppresive.
Can i ask what religion does NOT have arbitrary rules set forth by a Prophet(s) who was listening to a Diety. All religions (Abrahamic or other) are quite oppressive when taken to the fullest extent of the letter and imposed on everyone. Take a gander at that wonderful Shangrila that was Tibet prior to the Communist take over of it. the level of poverty and the philosophy of how to live and deal with poverty (of rising oneself above it) could easily be construed by the more 'enlightened' Communist/Secular/Western thinking as oppressive.
Had you been born in a Muslim country, be it liberal ones like Turkey, Indonesia, or the super conservative ones like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan you'd grow up with a very different idea of Islam.
Islam the word means submission to God, root word is Peace (Salaam), it is the peace one has when one gives themselves in devotion to God. What one does with the submission is how one interprets their faith. It is not unlike a Buddhist who gives up the worldly things in order to reach Nirvana, or a Christian who gives himself up to Jesus who died for his sins.
I hate the notion that the only good Muslim is a bad Muslim, this sort of conceited condescending thinking, like a Muslim cleric saying the only good Christian is a bad Christian who question's the divinity of Jesus. Never mind that under this conceited thinking a good Christian is one who puts the flag of Christ up first before country.
If i could suggest something. Go to a local Mosque, and short of outright saying "I hate your religion sir" ask some questions, be polite but frank.
Simple: Islam is a faith of arbitrary rules that a man named Muhammed allegedly heard in a revelation centuries ago. Muslims are the unfortunate followers of this faith, bound by the so-called word of Allah. Not all muslims want to cut off the hand of a theif, and some are quite progressive in regards to what Sharia Law pertains. However, by definition, to be a good muslim you must accept these doctrines upon which I find obnoxious and quite oppresive.[QUOTE="mywalletsgone"][QUOTE="Harisemo"] how can you hate islam and not hate muslims?SaudiFury
Can i ask what religion does NOT have arbitrary rules set forth by a Prophet(s) who was listening to a Diety. All religions (Abrahamic or other) are quite oppressive when taken to the fullest extent of the letter and imposed on everyone. Take a gander at that wonderful Shangrila that was Tibet prior to the Communist take over of it. the level of poverty and the philosophy of how to live and deal with poverty (of rising oneself above it) could easily be construed by the more 'enlightened' Communist/Secular/Western thinking as oppressive.
I never said other faiths don't have arbitrary rules; because they all do. The main difference between something like Islam and Christianity however, is that for a Christian to be a Christian, he must accept that Jesus rose from the dead in 3 days and ascended to heaven to God the father, i.e, salvation through faith alone. Muslims must believe that Sharia Law is 100% the word of God.
Had you been born in a Muslim country, be it liberal ones like Turkey, Indonesia, or the super conservative ones like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan you'd grow up with a very different idea of Islam.
This is why I said some muslims are quite progressive.
Islam the word means submission to God, root word is Peace (Salaam), it is the peace one has when one gives themselves in devotion to God. What one does with the submission is how one interprets their faith. It is not unlike a Buddhist who gives up the worldly things in order to reach Nirvana, or a Christian who gives himself up to Jesus who died for his sins.
In all honesty I can't argue with how muslim's feel in their submission to Allah, that's their perogative. My interpretation for Jesus dying for people's sins is that it allows them to not fully oblige those ridiculous rules within the old and new testament and instead be saved through faith.
If i could suggest something. Go to a local Mosque, and short of outright saying "I hate your religion sir" ask some questions, be polite but frank.
I had to both write a letter and travel to a mosque for a project I done on world faith'sa couple of years ago. I came away with satisfying, yet unconvincing answers to my stance.
What would I know though, I'm a deist.
I think I like N. Korea, they dont take no BS from no one, instead of being pushed over by everyone else. I tip my hat to them. As for them attacking and doing watever it is that we considered bad, well it is wat it is.................J-WOW
Don't forget they're starving their own people to death :P
[QUOTE="SaudiFury"]
[QUOTE="mywalletsgone"] Simple: Islam is a faith of arbitrary rules that a man named Muhammed allegedly heard in a revelation centuries ago. Muslims are the unfortunate followers of this faith, bound by the so-called word of Allah. Not all muslims want to cut off the hand of a theif, and some are quite progressive in regards to what Sharia Law pertains. However, by definition, to be a good muslim you must accept these doctrines upon which I find obnoxious and quite oppresive.mywalletsgone
Can i ask what religion does NOT have arbitrary rules set forth by a Prophet(s) who was listening to a Diety. All religions (Abrahamic or other) are quite oppressive when taken to the fullest extent of the letter and imposed on everyone. Take a gander at that wonderful Shangrila that was Tibet prior to the Communist take over of it. the level of poverty and the philosophy of how to live and deal with poverty (of rising oneself above it) could easily be construed by the more 'enlightened' Communist/Secular/Western thinking as oppressive.
I never said other faiths don't have arbitrary rules; because they all do. The main difference between something like Islam and Christianity however, is that for a Christian to be a Christian, he must accept that Jesus rose from the dead in 3 days and ascended to heaven to God the father, i.e, salvation through faith alone. Muslims must believe that Sharia Law is 100% the word of God.
Had you been born in a Muslim country, be it liberal ones like Turkey, Indonesia, or the super conservative ones like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan you'd grow up with a very different idea of Islam.
This is why I said some muslims are quite progressive.
Islam the word means submission to God, root word is Peace (Salaam), it is the peace one has when one gives themselves in devotion to God. What one does with the submission is how one interprets their faith. It is not unlike a Buddhist who gives up the worldly things in order to reach Nirvana, or a Christian who gives himself up to Jesus who died for his sins.
In all honesty I can't argue with how muslim's feel in their submission to Allah, that's their perogative. My interpretation for Jesus dying for people's sins is that it allows them to not fully oblige those ridiculous rules within the old and new testament and instead be saved through faith.
If i could suggest something. Go to a local Mosque, and short of outright saying "I hate your religion sir" ask some questions, be polite but frank.
I had to both write a letter and travel to a mosque for a project I done on world faith'sa couple of years ago. I came away with satisfying, yet unconvincing answers to my stance.
What would I know though, I'm a deist.
Shariah Law is not the word of God though. the Quran is. Shariah Law is law via man trying to interpret religious texts. It isn't - at least from what i've been taught the word of God. the judge who gives a sentence isn't in the place of God, he's interpreting to what he thinks. a Muslim can't outright abolish Shariah Law, however there have been some very convincing arguments in the Middle East as to what place should Shariah pertain to. in several different Islamic Empire's Shariah would be applicable to just military law or to the totality of society. The point however to your saying that Muslims MUST believe that Shariah Law is 100% word of God is incorrect, and there is a sort of evolution in Shariah Law, differing in interpretations and changing in judgments in the thinking of getting closer the 'perfect' will of God. A way of thinking this is it is like religious version of upholding the constitution in the United States. There is a debate even in the United States that the Constitution is a living document leaving it open to interpretation and changes, and one where the Founding Fathers had it right all along and the text is plainspoken. It is an endeavor towards an evermore perfect union. to be a Muslim comes down to 5 things, and that is it these are the MUST DO. None of which has Shariah Law in them. 1. Shahadah (declaration of faith) : There is no god but God and Muhammed is his messenger. This mantra is - when done with genuine sincerity is very much like a Christian who declares their belief that Christ died for his sins and was raised to Heaven. The Shahada at the end is what it boils down to for the Muslim, to deny this is to deny being Muslim. 2. Salah (prayer) : observe the five times a day prayers. 3. Zakat (alms): Muslims have to give 2.5-3% of their income directly to the poor and needy, and are also strongly encouraged to do Sadaqh which is the voluntary alms to the poor. 4. Sawm (fasting) : fasting during the holy month of Ramdan 5. Hajj (Pilgrimage): the yearly pilgrimage to Mecca and the rituals (Mount Arafat, stoning the devil, etc.). This is how i understand it, considering i was raised in the Saudi education system. and by the way by some Muslims in Saudi who follow the extreme Salafi thinking would call me a non-Muslim on the mere fact of having a difference of opinions in the religion. Then again, anyone who isn't Salafi - with them - is likely to be called Kafir be they Muslim or not. and i know about Deism, read some material on it myself.[QUOTE="mywalletsgone"][QUOTE="SaudiFury"]
Can i ask what religion does NOT have arbitrary rules set forth by a Prophet(s) who was listening to a Diety. All religions (Abrahamic or other) are quite oppressive when taken to the fullest extent of the letter and imposed on everyone. Take a gander at that wonderful Shangrila that was Tibet prior to the Communist take over of it. the level of poverty and the philosophy of how to live and deal with poverty (of rising oneself above it) could easily be construed by the more 'enlightened' Communist/Secular/Western thinking as oppressive.
I never said other faiths don't have arbitrary rules; because they all do. The main difference between something like Islam and Christianity however, is that for a Christian to be a Christian, he must accept that Jesus rose from the dead in 3 days and ascended to heaven to God the father, i.e, salvation through faith alone. Muslims must believe that Sharia Law is 100% the word of God.
Had you been born in a Muslim country, be it liberal ones like Turkey, Indonesia, or the super conservative ones like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan you'd grow up with a very different idea of Islam.
This is why I said some muslims are quite progressive.
Islam the word means submission to God, root word is Peace (Salaam), it is the peace one has when one gives themselves in devotion to God. What one does with the submission is how one interprets their faith. It is not unlike a Buddhist who gives up the worldly things in order to reach Nirvana, or a Christian who gives himself up to Jesus who died for his sins.
In all honesty I can't argue with how muslim's feel in their submission to Allah, that's their perogative. My interpretation for Jesus dying for people's sins is that it allows them to not fully oblige those ridiculous rules within the old and new testament and instead be saved through faith.
If i could suggest something. Go to a local Mosque, and short of outright saying "I hate your religion sir" ask some questions, be polite but frank.
I had to both write a letter and travel to a mosque for a project I done on world faith'sa couple of years ago. I came away with satisfying, yet unconvincing answers to my stance.
SaudiFury
What would I know though, I'm a deist.
Shariah Law is not the word of God though. the Quran is. Shariah Law is law via man trying to interpret religious texts. It isn't - at least from what i've been taught the word of God. the judge who gives a sentence isn't in the place of God, he's interpreting to what he thinks. a Muslim can't outright abolish Shariah Law, however there have been some very convincing arguments in the Middle East as to what place should Shariah pertain to. in several different Islamic Empire's Shariah would be applicable to just military law or to the totality of society. The point however to your saying that Muslims MUST believe that Shariah Law is 100% word of God is incorrect, and there is a sort of evolution in Shariah Law, differing in interpretations and changing in judgments in the thinking of getting closer the 'perfect' will of God. A way of thinking this is it is like religious version of upholding the constitution in the United States. There is a debate even in the United States that the Constitution is a living document leaving it open to interpretation and changes, and one where the Founding Fathers had it right all along and the text is plainspoken. It is an endeavor towards an evermore perfect union. to be a Muslim comes down to 5 things, and that is it these are the MUST DO. None of which has Shariah Law in them. 1. Shahadah (declaration of faith) : There is no god but God and Muhammed is his messenger. This mantra is - when done with genuine sincerity is very much like a Christian who declares their belief that Christ died for his sins and was raised to Heaven. The Shahada at the end is what it boils down to for the Muslim, to deny this is to deny being Muslim. 2. Salah (prayer) : observe the five times a day prayers. 3. Zakat (alms): Muslims have to give 2.5-3% of their income directly to the poor and needy, and are also strongly encouraged to do Sadaqh which is the voluntary alms to the poor. 4. Sawm (fasting) : fasting during the holy month of Ramdan 5. Hajj (Pilgrimage): the yearly pilgrimage to Mecca and the rituals (Mount Arafat, stoning the devil, etc.). This is how i understand it, considering i was raised in the Saudi education system. and by the way by some Muslims in Saudi who follow the extreme Salafi thinking would call me a non-Muslim on the mere fact of having a difference of opinions in the religion. Then again, anyone who isn't Salafi - with them - is likely to be called Kafir be they Muslim or not. and i know about Deism, read some material on it myself.Well, to adress your first point, if what you say is true in that muslims don't neccisarily have to fully believe Sharia Law, then wouldn't that, along with changes and alterations or differeing interpretations, undermine Muhammed and paint him as a bit of a lunatic? Or paint him sort of wrong?
Also I was under the impression that Shahada was the irrefutable staple of Islam while the rest of the four pillars were more of a moral code, and not exactly what it requires to become a muslim. Apart from Hajj perhapes, where it is required that one must go on the pilgrimage at least once in a lifetime.
I think they are a tyrannical state that is alone and isolated. They are short on food and fuel and supplies and use threats of force to blackmail other countries into giving them aid.
Considering your belief is Deist. I guess that is what you'd think.
Consider this your applying Shariah Law. do by chance know of Halakha? or Canon Law?
Those are Jewish Law and Catholic Law. would then each proceed changes like when Pope John XXIII had the Canon Law completely redone, even Pope John Paul II had parts of it changed. does that mean that each leader with a connection to God who spoke for the Catholics as each nothing more then a mere politician? You may see it that way, but i doubt most believing Catholics do. I could easily turn it around on a similar faith that has laws.
the advantage for the Catholics for instance is that they are centralized, Islam itself is not a centralized religion and even the Prophet spoke to Uthman (the third Caliph for the first four Rightly Guided Caliphs) that a split would occur within the faith (Sunni and Shiite).
Halakha is much more closer to Islamic law, as it derives it's judgements from the Torah (Bible, both are seen are word of God by their respective faiths), Rabbinical Laws, Decree's, and Customs. and within Halakha there is difference of what counts and what does not count (Orthodox, and Conservative) and in some cases of the Jewish faith don't even take Halakha into account. How could one not live their life by the sayings and actions of the Prophet Moses and the others? and these laws were practiced up until the destruction of the Kingdom of Judea in 60 A.D. they remained practiced within a limited fashion amongst their communities during the diaspora.
I doubt with either of these faiths they'd see that changes and interpertations as being bad on their Prophets/Pope's/Rabbi's.
Right now in the Middle East there is a great confusion as to what actually constitutes into Shariah Law, some people seem to think it is the Sunnah and the Quran, making it equal to the word of God, which isn't right because Sunnah is not the word of God but rather what people said (200 years later) what the Prophet Muhammed said and did. That and the Shariah Law is still interpretation of the Holy texts into law by man, by that very nature it will change. For fundamentalists they send the clock back to the 7th century and apply the law as to what they thought happened then, in other places they apply the law while reconciling changes in society. Sunnah however is unchangeable as it is accounts of the Prophet's sayings and actions. However if you look in the dictionary and even amongst a large school of thought within the Islamic World today and in it's long history is the practice of Fiqh.
Fiqh means "Deep Understanding", and these are made by Jurists and over the course of years can go under review and be said as to have made a correct or incorrect ruling. and even within this Fiqh there are differences in what sources one could use. in Sunni Islam there is Hanbali, Hanafi, Shafi, Maliki (Saudi Arabia is Hanbali school of thought, while Egypt is Hanafi), within Shiite Islam there are four, the main one used being Jafari', but the others Zaidi, Ismaili. There is also Quran Only Fiqh practices. and there has been an ongoing debate as to adjusting Fiqh to the more modern world. Some of the Pro-Reform range from the Islamist (who want to 'Islamicize' everything) to Liberal and Traditional camps who merely want to open up the countries to develop further.
The great battle within the Islamic World when it comes to Shariah Law is who binds to who.
does religion bend to the globalized Westernizing world? or must the Western culture be curtailed for the religion. since the Cold War went into high gear it has been more or less that the Western culture needs to be curtailed in the Muslim world. In 2003-2005 I - personally - started seeing actual changes in the religious dialog lately. from Bahrain, Saudi, Iraq, and Egypt. in Egypt the Mufti is against the illeberal democracy that the Muslim Brotherhood supports for, there is a third party (splinter party of the Brotherhood) that doesn't even take into account Shariah Law.
Shariah Law back in the day - up until around 1400-1500 A.D. - was pretty flexible in it's laws, that flexiblity which is argued by pro-reformers, is what helped facilitate the "Golden Age" an era that is over-inflated by Islamists, and severely under-appreciated by Anti-Muslim Polemics. the Golden Age is a time when the Islamic Empire (The Abbasid's) were open to new and foreign idea's, compiling them testing them and building upon them. and yes there Muslim and Christian early scientists during thsi period as well (and i'm currently studying this era at the moment but can't talk further as i don't know enough).
If your wondering what my opinion is for Shariah Law, I am personally not a fan of it as it stands in 2010 but if i could institute change within Saudi Arabia, i would probably severely shrink the jurisdiction of Shariah Law, and change the school of thought when implementing new laws.
--------------------
As far as i was ever tought my school in Saudi (Eastern Province city Al-Khobar) and from my own father and family. the 5 pillars of Islam are the MUST DO's in Islam. There are exceptions made for Zakat, Fasting, and Hajj. for instance if you are Poor you are exempted from the Zakat (as you are the one who is in need of help), chronically ill, younger then puberty or elderly you, the long distance traveling (not so hard in today's world but think about long distance traveling 1400 years ago...), or pregnancy you can be exempt from doing the Fasting. in Hajj is not obligatory those who lack physical or financial ability.
However this should not be taken as i know some of my Catholic friends take to Lent (where they give up on Chocolate or something not all that important to them for a month). you don't find a REASON to give up having to do it, one must find ways to do the Hajj. for example if my father is completely and utterly physcally incapable to Hajj, and he has never done it yet, but he has the finances, i can do the Hajj for him provided i have done the Hajj the first time for myself.
The other tasks are not meant to do hardship on the person that is not the point of the 5 pillar's, hence exceptions are made. and in the course of the history as we know better about our physiology and diseases new exceptions are made. for example in Saudi an imam issued (prior to the ban) a Fatwa (a non-legal binding religious edict) that Muslims who had severe diabetes were exempted from the Hajj unless their affliction were ever lifted.
[QUOTE="J-WOW"]I think I like N. Korea, they dont take no BS from no one, instead of being pushed over by everyone else. I tip my hat to them. As for them attacking and doing watever it is that we considered bad, well it is wat it is.................DoomZaW
Don't forget they're starving their own people to death :P
It is wat it is, deal with it sonI feel really sorry for its inhabitants, the big leaders have completely brainwashed them. Their behavior is completely irrational and dangerous, for themselves and the rest of the world.
TheFlush
Enough about the Americans! The TC asked for opinions on North Korea!
:P
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