Why have faith in the Supernatural?

Is there any good reason to have faith in the supernatural? To me, the answer is no. Having faith or believing in something is a copout--closing your mind to reality and having a god or some other form of supernatural entity or energy to explain what you cannot answer, rather than doing the investigating and questioning yourself. Why? Why have faith? Why believe in something that is likely not there? Why close your mind to the natural world?

What is your reason for having faith?

They all have their different reasons, I guess. I think it's mainly because of convenience. All the thinking you'll ever need to do is already written down, and you don't have to lift a finger. dracula_16

Why not believe that there could be things outside of what is observed? Christianity teaches that there is more than what your eyes see, your ears hear, your fingers touch. There is more to life and there is more to the world than what is around us. Christianity teaches that there is a personal God who loves us and has a plan for our lives. Christianity gives hope and purpose to the believer. Why would one not want that? To have the feeling of being in something big, having your hand in something that would last eternity. Why would one not want that?

Also, anything that is supernatural is simply something that is not explained by simple observation. This might simply be something that defies the laws of physics. That is what miracles are, something that happens outside of would our simple minds comprehend. Just because you have never seen something happen does not mean it cannot happen.

Why not believe that there could be things outside of what is observed? Christianity teaches that there is more than what your eyes see, your ears hear, your fingers touch. There is more to life and there is more to the world than what is around us. Christianity teaches that there is a personal God who loves us and has a plan for our lives. Christianity gives hope and purpose to the believer. Why would one not want that? To have the feeling of being in something big, having your hand in something that would last eternity. Why would one not want that?

Also, anything that is supernatural is simply something that is not explained by simple observation. This might simply be something that defies the laws of physics. That is what miracles are, something that happens outside of would our simple minds conprehend. Just because you have never seen something happen does not mean it cannot happen.

mindstorm

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

Why not believe that there could be things outside of what is observed? Christianity teaches that there is more than what your eyes see, your ears hear, your fingers touch. There is more to life and there is more to the world than what is around us. Christianity teaches that there is a personal God who loves us and has a plan for our lives. Christianity gives hope and purpose to the believer. Why would one not want that? To have the feeling of being in something big, having your hand in something that would last eternity. Why would one not want that?

Also, anything that is supernatural is simply something that is not explained by simple observation. This might simply be something that defies the laws of physics. That is what miracles are, something that happens outside of would our simple minds conprehend. Just because you have never seen something happen does not mean it cannot happen.

swizz-the-gamer

Seek it with an open mind then. Christians are often said to be close-minded yet those who are not will not even give the thought of a possibility... I don't know about anyone else but that sounds kind of double standard to me...

I have faith in the existence in god and yet accept all that science teaches, from evolution to the big bang. How again, is faith blinding me and closing my mind? If anything, i'd say a militant atheist who refuses to even think a god is possible is more closed minded than i could ever be.Tolwan

[QUOTE="Tolwan"]I have faith in the existence in god and yet accept all that science teaches, from evolution to the big bang. How again, is faith blinding me and closing my mind? If anything, i'd say a militant atheist who refuses to even think a god is possible is more closed minded than i could ever be.C_Town_Soul

The bible, historical documents, Jesus christ. Those are my main reason for my faith. Sure, it's history by word of mouth, some anecdotal, but then, that's why it's called Faith. I believe there is more than all that we see, something that transcends our own universe. That takes Faith, and so does taking the word of all those who contributed to the bible and saw Jesus Christ.

[QUOTE="swizz-the-gamer"][QUOTE="mindstorm"]

Why not believe that there could be things outside of what is observed? Christianity teaches that there is more than what your eyes see, your ears hear, your fingers touch. There is more to life and there is more to the world than what is around us. Christianity teaches that there is a personal God who loves us and has a plan for our lives. Christianity gives hope and purpose to the believer. Why would one not want that? To have the feeling of being in something big, having your hand in something that would last eternity. Why would one not want that?

Also, anything that is supernatural is simply something that is not explained by simple observation. This might simply be something that defies the laws of physics. That is what miracles are, something that happens outside of would our simple minds conprehend. Just because you have never seen something happen does not mean it cannot happen.

mindstorm

Seek it with an open mind then. Christians are often said to be close-minded yet those who are not will not even give the thought of a possibility... I don't know about anyone else but that sounds kind of double standard to me...

[QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"][QUOTE="Tolwan"]I have faith in the existence in god and yet accept all that science teaches, from evolution to the big bang. How again, is faith blinding me and closing my mind? If anything, i'd say a militant atheist who refuses to even think a god is possible is more closed minded than i could ever be.Tolwan

The bible, historical documents, Jesus christ. Those are my main reason for my faith. Sure, it's history by word of mouth, some anecdotal, but then, that's why it's called Faith. I believe there is more than all that we see, something that transcends our own universe. That takes Faith, and so does taking the word of all those who contributed to the bible and saw Jesus Christ.

[QUOTE="Tolwan"]

[QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"][QUOTE="Tolwan"]I have faith in the existence in god and yet accept all that science teaches, from evolution to the big bang. How again, is faith blinding me and closing my mind? If anything, i'd say a militant atheist who refuses to even think a god is possible is more closed minded than i could ever be.C_Town_Soul

The bible, historical documents, Jesus christ. Those are my main reason for my faith. Sure, it's history by word of mouth, some anecdotal, but then, that's why it's called Faith. I believe there is more than all that we see, something that transcends our own universe. That takes Faith, and so does taking the word of all those who contributed to the bible and saw Jesus Christ.

Roman documents of Jesus Christs exsistence and Execution, documents taken of Jesus Christs teachings and resurreciton, all highly debated. Like i said, it takes faith. Your mind, for one reason or another, is incapable of having faith, so arguing with you is pointless. You are simply looking for a reason to attack my faith, and i refuse to get into that debate AGAIN

Also, anything that is supernatural is simply something that is not explained by simple observation. This might simply be something that defies the laws of physics. That is what miracles are, something that happens outside of would our simple minds comprehend. Just because you have never seen something happen does not mean it cannot happen.

mindstorm

[QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"][QUOTE="Tolwan"]

[QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"][QUOTE="Tolwan"]I have faith in the existence in god and yet accept all that science teaches, from evolution to the big bang. How again, is faith blinding me and closing my mind? If anything, i'd say a militant atheist who refuses to even think a god is possible is more closed minded than i could ever be.Tolwan

The bible, historical documents, Jesus christ. Those are my main reason for my faith. Sure, it's history by word of mouth, some anecdotal, but then, that's why it's called Faith. I believe there is more than all that we see, something that transcends our own universe. That takes Faith, and so does taking the word of all those who contributed to the bible and saw Jesus Christ.

Roman documents of Jesus Christs exsistence and Execution, documents taken of Jesus Christs teachings and resurreciton, all highly debated. Like i said, it takes faith. Your mind, for one reason or another, is incapable of having faith, so arguing with you is pointless. You are simply looking for a reason to attack my faith, and i refuse to get into that debate AGAIN

If it hasn't been asked already, the better question is,

Why not?

[QUOTE="mindstorm"][QUOTE="swizz-the-gamer"][QUOTE="mindstorm"]

Why not believe that there could be things outside of what is observed? Christianity teaches that there is more than what your eyes see, your ears hear, your fingers touch. There is more to life and there is more to the world than what is around us. Christianity teaches that there is a personal God who loves us and has a plan for our lives. Christianity gives hope and purpose to the believer. Why would one not want that? To have the feeling of being in something big, having your hand in something that would last eternity. Why would one not want that?

Also, anything that is supernatural is simply something that is not explained by simple observation. This might simply be something that defies the laws of physics. That is what miracles are, something that happens outside of would our simple minds conprehend. Just because you have never seen something happen does not mean it cannot happen.

C_Town_Soul

Seek it with an open mind then. Christians are often said to be close-minded yet those who are not will not even give the thought of a possibility... I don't know about anyone else but that sounds kind of double standard to me...

I do have faith in the supernatural but it isn't a blind faith. Christianity goes beyond reason but not against it. Faith is the assurance of the heart in the adequacy of the evidence. The faith I have towards God is the same faith a man has when asking a girl to marry him. He has faith that the girl will remain faithful and that the marriage will last based upon what he knows of her. In just the same way I have faith that God is indeed a living God based upon the evidence of himself within my life.

If it hasn't been asked already, the better question is,

Why not?

sonic_spark

I do have faith in the supernatural but it isn't a blind faith. Christianity goes beyond reason but not against it. Faith is the assurance of the heart in the adequacy of the evidence. The faith I have towards God is the same faith a man has when asking a girl to marry him. He has faith that the girl will remain faithful and that the marriage will last based upon what he knows of her. In just the same way I have faith that God is indeed a living God based upon the evidence of himself within my life.

mindstorm

Is there any good reason to have faith in the supernatural? To me, the answer is no. Having faith or believing in something is a copout--closing your mind to reality and having a god or some other form of supernatural entity or energy to explain what you cannot answer, rather than doing the investigating and questioning yourself. Why? Why have faith? Why believe in something that is likely not there? Why close your mind to the natural world?

What is your reason for having faith?

C_Town_Soul

Is there any good reason to put your faith in the corrupt men who rule this world out of greed?

I suppose you wouldn't call what I have "faith", but I do have my reasons for feeling that the existence of some sort of universal creator is likely, most of which simply have to do with logical deduction and whatnot based on what we know about the universe and such like. Attempts to explain why will not go anywhere, though, if past experience serves as a guide. :P

I'm pretty darn live-and-let-live when it comes to faith in the supernatural, though. For a lot of people, it can give them hope where there might be no rational reason to have hope, and I don't think the benefit of such a thing should be understated. When people try to use their faith to encroach on others' freedoms, that's a different story, but that's not a necessary facet of faith whatsoever.

I dont' have your definition of faith. I can however piss off sparrow and present the evidence for the supernatural. fanofazrienoch

[QUOTE="Tolwan"][QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"][QUOTE="Tolwan"]

[QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"][QUOTE="Tolwan"]I have faith in the existence in god and yet accept all that science teaches, from evolution to the big bang. How again, is faith blinding me and closing my mind? If anything, i'd say a militant atheist who refuses to even think a god is possible is more closed minded than i could ever be.C_Town_Soul

The bible, historical documents, Jesus christ. Those are my main reason for my faith. Sure, it's history by word of mouth, some anecdotal, but then, that's why it's called Faith. I believe there is more than all that we see, something that transcends our own universe. That takes Faith, and so does taking the word of all those who contributed to the bible and saw Jesus Christ.

Roman documents of Jesus Christs exsistence and Execution, documents taken of Jesus Christs teachings and resurreciton, all highly debated. Like i said, it takes faith. Your mind, for one reason or another, is incapable of having faith, so arguing with you is pointless. You are simply looking for a reason to attack my faith, and i refuse to get into that debate AGAIN

Josephus, Tacitus, and the Jewish Targums are just a few sources about the life of Jesus... They were not Christians and were against Christianity so they wouldn't have made it up... The Jewish Targums mention several things such as Jesus' ability to use witchcraft (which they accused him of in the Bible). Very few true historical scholars doubt that Jesus was a prominent man who was killed by the Romans for a major offence (such as blasphemy).

Umm maybe because millions of people have had supernatural things happen to them? Like healing and stuff like that, like myself. ;)

[QUOTE="Tolwan"][QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"][QUOTE="Tolwan"]

[QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"][QUOTE="Tolwan"]I have faith in the existence in god and yet accept all that science teaches, from evolution to the big bang. How again, is faith blinding me and closing my mind? If anything, i'd say a militant atheist who refuses to even think a god is possible is more closed minded than i could ever be.C_Town_Soul

The bible, historical documents, Jesus christ. Those are my main reason for my faith. Sure, it's history by word of mouth, some anecdotal, but then, that's why it's called Faith. I believe there is more than all that we see, something that transcends our own universe. That takes Faith, and so does taking the word of all those who contributed to the bible and saw Jesus Christ.

Roman documents of Jesus Christs exsistence and Execution, documents taken of Jesus Christs teachings and resurreciton, all highly debated. Like i said, it takes faith. Your mind, for one reason or another, is incapable of having faith, so arguing with you is pointless. You are simply looking for a reason to attack my faith, and i refuse to get into that debate AGAIN

There is a book called "The Historical Figure Of Jesus Christ". It is written in a historical textbook fashion, it is fairly recent and it discusses the historical records that chronicle the actual Jesus Christ. In argues the different debates and historical articles that contest either Jesus was real or fictional. The basic analysis of this book provides that Jesus was indeed an actual person, who existed during this time period. Its a long, hard, somewhat dry read, but if you're interested in the subject, i highly recommend it.

You can choose to believe what you would like, no one forces anything on others. I'm Catholic, and believing in something supports my world. Having religion helps you to identify with moral values, and just an overall good way of living. I refuse to have super hardcore religious fanatics shove it down my throat, but in my own respect i am faithful within a reasonable amount.

[QUOTE="fanofazrienoch"]I dont' have your definition of faith. I can however piss off sparrow and present the evidence for the supernatural. C_Town_Soul

Section A: Did Jesus ever really live and was he crucified?

The topic of whether Jesus lived in Nazereth at the beginning of the common era is a hotly, though unjustly debated topic on the internet. there are really only 2 well known scholars who doubt that the person Jesus, around whom the new testament revolves, existed, and these 2 scholars are G.A Wells and Michael martin.

But we have numerous sources on the life of Jesus. For starters we have the 4 canonical Gospels. The 4 canonical Gospels can be shown to be reliable in 2 ways. The first way it to prove a very early date for the Gospels. We will be arguing backward from teh book of Acts. The book of acts is a history of the early christian church written by St. Luke the evangelist. The book of Acts leaves off with Paul being put under house arrest in Rome for 2 years. There are some very important details which are omitted from the book of Acts. These details are as follows, The death of James brother of Jesus (62 AD), the death of Peter (64 AD), the death of Paul (64 AD according to Clement or 68 AD according to tertullian), and the neronian persecution of Christians (64 AD). The importance of these events in the development of christianity are vastly more important than many events which Luke discusses in detail such as the death of Stephen, the death of James brother of John. The only real possible explanation is that Luke did not have knowledge of these historical facts. This would put Acts at 61 AD at the latest.

But how does Acts relate to the rest of the Gospels? Acts was a sequel to the Gospel of luke, we know this because Luke's Gospel is dedicated to Theophilus, and in the beginning of Acts the author alludes to a previous work dedicated to theophilus. Luke is the last of the synoptic Gospels to be written because it clearly relies on the other Gospels. This would place Luke and Matthew in the 50s AD, and Mark, the first greek gospel written, in the mid to late 40s AD. an early date such as this for Mark is EXTREMELY strong evidence that Jesus existed.

Second method of determining the Gospels to be reliable, we can prove that Gospels were either written by eye-witnesses, or heavily influenced by eye-witnesses. The first piece of evidence is the unanimous testimony of the early church fathers. The early church fathers agree unanimously that St. Mark wrote mark, St. Matthew wrote matthew, St. Luke wrote Luke, and St. John wrote John. This indicates that they must have recieved their titles very early on. The second piece of evidence is that these books are never attributed to any other author (John being the exception). This would be strange if these books were written by another person. The third piece is that the early christians obviously viewed these as authoritative. The early church fathers quote extensively from these works and the earliest canons include these 4 works (and Acts)

The Next piece of evidence I will discuss is Paul's letters, but specifically 1 Corinthians 15. Paul quotes an extremely early creed which says that Jesus was crucified and rose 3 days later and appeared to James, Peter, the twelve, all the apostles, and more than 500 witnesses at one time. the early date of this creed excludes it from being a legend.

There are however 2 extra-biblical sources that I want to get into, and those are by Josephus and Tacitus. Josephus in his Antiquities of the Jews, writes of a man who was crucified and calls his followers "Christians". The passage is however only partially interpolated, and in the near-indisputed portions Josephus says that Jesus was crucified, his followers were christians, and that he did miracles, a "doer of wonderful works" as he calls it.

The second reference I wish to discuss is the one by Gaius cornelius tacitus. Gaius Cornelius tacitus was an extremely reliable Roman historian. He writes of a man he calls "Christus" who was crucified by Pontius Pilate, and his followers were named Christians, and they were accused by Nero of burning down Rome.

Section B: Was Jesus buried in a tomb and was that tomb empty

subsection A: the reliability of the burial account. The first evidence we have for Jesus' being buried in a tomb is that it fits the criterion of embarrasment. Joseph of Arimathea was a pharisee, and it was embarrasing for someone to be associated with the Pharisees. The second piece of evidence I have is that all 4 Gospels attest to the burial in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea. as demonstrated before, these accounts are reliable. The third piece of evidence is the pre-markan passion source. in all the synoptic Gospels, the story of the crucifixion and burial of Jesus flows very smoothly and it the same throughout the Gospels. The reason this is so is because prior to mark, there was another written source we call "The passion source". This passion source must be at least 10 years older than Mark's Gospel, which would put this passion source in the mid 30s AD and may go all teh way back to the burial itself.

subsection B: The tomb was empty: The first piece of evidence (undoubtedly the strongest) is that the empty tomb is implicitly stated in the 1 Corinthians 15 creed. This creed says that he was buried and rose on the third day. The body of Jesus really could not be raised and the tomb still be occupied. This is a peculiarity of modern theology. Paul believed that Jesus rose in a bodily form (he uses soma pneumatikon to describe the resurrected body).

second evidence: the extremely early Jewish polemic against christnaity. This is attested in Matthew's Gospel. in Matthew 27, the sanhedrin accuses the disciples of stealing the body. The Disciples said that the guard was there and that they could not get past the guard. The guards said that the disciples stole the body when they were sleeping. The disciples said that the sanhedrin bribed the guards to say that. The extremely early date of this polemic is strong evidence that the tomb was empty because the fact of the empty tomb is enemy attested.

The third evidence is called "The jerusalem factor". The disciples preached in Jerusalem first. but this is where Jesus was crucified. If they proclaimed that Jesus rose and the tomb was empty, and the tomb was not empty, the Jews and Romans could point to the occupied tomb and dispell christianity right then and there. This however did not happen, and Christianity spread.

Section C: the resurrection was physical and not spiritual, namely Paul's belief in a physical resurrection. The first piece of evidence is that Luke 24 clearly says that Jesus had a physical body after he was resurrected. Luke personally knew Paul and possibly peter and james.

The next evidence is that Paul was a pharisee. in contrast with the Greeks and hellenized Jews, the pharisees upheld the mosaic law with Pride. The old testament said that everyone would have a physical resurrection. This is found in the book of Daniel, the book of Ezekial, and the book of Isaiah. Paul says in Philippians that our resurrection bodies will be like that of Christ's resurrection body.

The next piece of evidence is how Paul describes the resurrection body in 1 Corinthians 15. Paul says that our bodies are "sown a natural body, but raised a spiritual body". it is sown a soma yuxikon, but raised soma pneumatikon. "soma" means body. Paul never uses it to describe something non-physical. to say that he did really is just begging the question. the word "pneumatikos" means spiritual. Paul never uses it to describe something spiritual in substance, but in orientation, like we would call the bible "a spiritual book".

Section D: The post resurrection appearances of Jesus.

appearance A: appearance to James a skeptic. in the 1 Corinthians 15 creed, Paul says that Jesus appeared to James after he died. The early date of the creed and the fact that Paul personally met James in galatians insures historicity. Even if his appearance were not listed, you still have to explain why he believed in the resurrection. an appearance experience really can only explain it because the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus describes the martyrdom of James, brother of Jesus, the so called Christ.

appearance B: The appearance to Peter. again, this is described in 1 Corinthians 15 creed. the early date of the creed insures historicity. Clement of Rome also says that Peter was martyred in Rome.

appearance C: the appearance to the twelve. This is attested in 1 Corinthians 15 and is attested in all 4 Gospels. the early date of the Gospels and the creed insure historicity.

appearance D: appearance to Paul, a skeptic. This is accounted in 1 Corinthians 15, Galatians, and Acts. Paul was also martyred Rome in 64 AD or 68 AD. Clement of Rome discusses this. Its interesting to note that Paul was the chief persecutor of the christian church a few years after Jesus died and rose again.

appearance E: The appearance to teh 500 at one time. The appearance to the 500 is attested in the 1 Corinthians 15 creed. The early date of the creed should alone insure historicity, but there is another piece of evidence of this appearance. Paul says that "many of whom are alive to this day, though some have fallen asleep" this probably means that Paul was personally acquainted with these witnesses. I

now, in light of the evidence, consider this. does this not fit into the context (Jesus claiming to be divine, Jesus predicting his resurrection) absolutely PERFECTLY?

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

I do have faith in the supernatural but it isn't a blind faith. Christianity goes beyond reason but not against it. Faith is the assurance of the heart in the adequacy of the evidence. The faith I have towards God is the same faith a man has when asking a girl to marry him. He has faith that the girl will remain faithful and that the marriage will last based upon what he knows of her. In just the same way I have faith that God is indeed a living God based upon the evidence of himself within my life.

C_Town_Soul

If you had the experiences of God in my life like I've had you wouldn't see the "stark contrast." I've experienced the workings of God in my life in ways that he alone could have been the cause. I base my decisions to follow Christ on evidence of him in my life that I have indeed experienced. My faith is not a blind faith.

There is a book called "The Historical Figure Of Jesus Christ". It is written in a historical textbook fashion, it is fairly recent and it discusses the historical records that chronicle the actual Jesus Christ. In argues the different debates and historical articles that contest either Jesus was real or fictional. The basic analysis of this book provides that Jesus was indeed an actual person, who existed during this time period. Its a long, hard, somewhat dry read, but if you're interested in the subject, i highly recommend it.

You can choose to believe what you would like, no one forces anything on others. I'm Catholic, and believing in something supports my world. Having religion helps you to identify with moral values, and just an overall good way of living. I refuse to have super hardcore religious fanatics shove it down my throat, but in my own respect i am faithful within a reasonable amount.

sonic_spark

Onto your second point, are you saying because of your religion that you have morals or that you can only live a good life because of it? Just to clarify.

[QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"][QUOTE="mindstorm"]

I do have faith in the supernatural but it isn't a blind faith. Christianity goes beyond reason but not against it. Faith is the assurance of the heart in the adequacy of the evidence. The faith I have towards God is the same faith a man has when asking a girl to marry him. He has faith that the girl will remain faithful and that the marriage will last based upon what he knows of her. In just the same way I have faith that God is indeed a living God based upon the evidence of himself within my life.

mindstorm

If you had the experiences of God in my life like I've had you wouldn't see the "stark contrast." I've experienced the workings of God in my life in ways that he alone could have been the cause. I base my decisions to follow Christ on evidence of him in my life that I have indeed experienced. My faith is not a blind faith.

To fanofazrienoch:

It would take me forever to respond to everything and I'm about to head out the my bro's preg-raduation party.

I have just skimmed through it.

First of all I don't get how when the gospels were written or when the gospel writers died is evidence for the existence of Jesus. Please explain.

Josephus is a horrible example because if you read the book, everything flows without that excerpt; with it it seems out of place. In other words, it leads one to believe that it was forged and added in later than when the book was originally written. Also Josephus was a Jew so why would he specifically call Jesus the Christ and not "people claim him to be the Christ" or something similar.

Anyway that's what I have right now. I have to go.

[QUOTE="sonic_spark"]

C_Town_Soul

Onto your second point, are you saying because of your religion that you have morals or that you can only live a good life because of it? Just to clarify.

Im with this guy, all sorts of storys and folk tales have been made, for all sorts of different reasons, weither its methods of teaching, or for entertainment. its not that difficult for something to get outta hand. espcially once you have enough followers. people seem to be sheep. I bet we could send MindFreak back in time. or some other magician with at least 12 followers and claim hes jesus. write your personal storys about him and there u go. a new jesus

To fanofazrienoch:

It would take me forever to respond to everything and I'm about to head out the my bro's preg-raduation party.

I have just skimmed through it.

First of all I don't get how when the gospels were written or when the gospel writers died is evidence for the existence of Jesus. Please explain.

Josephus is a horrible example because if you read the book, everything flows without that excerpt; with it it seems out of place. In other words, it leads one to believe that it was forged and added in later than when the book was originally written. Also Josephus was a Jew so why would he specifically call Jesus the Christ and not "people claim him to be the Christ" or something similar.

Anyway that's what I have right now. I have to go.

C_Town_Soul

-Jesus' death by crucifixion
-Jesus was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea
-that tomb was discovered to be empty
-James, a skeptic, saw the risen Christ
-the twelve saw the risen Christ
-Paul, a devout persecutor of the church, saw the risen Christ
-the 12(11) disciples saw Jesus as a group
-500 witnesses saw the risen jesus as a group
-This fits perfectly in the context because Jesus claimed divinity and predicted his resurrection

but about Josephus, there are several reasons to suggest that this testimonium flavianum is in fact partially authentic.

1: later in his discussion about the death of James, he says "James, brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ" This suggests an earlier reference to a "christ" figure.

2: when you remove the obvious christian interpolations, it is in perfect Josephan style and flows very smoothly.

3: if this were a complete forgery, we would expect to see this Jesus connected with John the Baptist because the New Testament makes a clear connection between John the Baptist and Jesus. Josephus does no such thing

4: Josephus calls Jesus a "wise man". This is both A: characteristically Josephan, and B: not the result of a christian forgery. a christian would not have called Jesus a mere "wise man"

everything that is born... dies...

we use a raft to get to the other side of birth and death, so we should avoid using the raft to worship, to enshrine or to put on our heads and carry around with us wherever we go.

metaphysics, speculation and holding to systems of thought keep us in the world of birth and death

[QUOTE="mindstorm"][QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"][QUOTE="mindstorm"]

I do have faith in the supernatural but it isn't a blind faith. Christianity goes beyond reason but not against it. Faith is the assurance of the heart in the adequacy of the evidence. The faith I have towards God is the same faith a man has when asking a girl to marry him. He has faith that the girl will remain faithful and that the marriage will last based upon what he knows of her. In just the same way I have faith that God is indeed a living God based upon the evidence of himself within my life.

C_Town_Soul

If you had the experiences of God in my life like I've had you wouldn't see the "stark contrast." I've experienced the workings of God in my life in ways that he alone could have been the cause. I base my decisions to follow Christ on evidence of him in my life that I have indeed experienced. My faith is not a blind faith.

I shall try. I feel like a mosquito in a nudist colony, I have no idea where to begin. I guess I'll go with how God changed my life in a manner that I'd seek the full-time ministry. Growing up I wasn't the brightest of kids and was always considered the quite child who honestly wouldn't amount to much (even family thought that). I wasn't a bad child by any means but I'd do horrible in school. Eigth grade was the worst, failing every class I didn't need and making D's in every class outside of that. I honestly have no idea how I passed that year. I had horrible vocal abilities and absolutely no motivation. To sum it all up, I prayed in high school that if God would give me the abilities needed and open the doors, I'd go into a full-time church related vocation, specifically being a pastor. God put situations in my life that opened the door for me to no only graduate high school (which I thought I'd honestly never do) but give me a full ride through college. He also used other interests I had to give me other abilities needed, most notably that to communicate more effectively. I know I'm not yet the best orator or student but God radically changed my life. I'm a Senior now and am going to graduate from college in a year and am going to Seminary when I do. I went from being the simple dumb kid into someone who'd end up not only get a full ride through college and what looks like a full ride through graduate school.

I don't have as much of a testamony as many people I know but I can say I've seen God do amazing things not only in my life but those around me. He's given me hope and courage when I could get it from no one else in times such as in February when a lot of crap happened in my life (to give you a summary, my brother was falsely accused of threatening a guy with a gun, my girlfriend broke up with me who I had been planning to propose to rather soon, my best friend was going through horrible family problems, etc etc). I have no doubt it was God who was working in my life through all of that, it's all caused me to become not only stronger in my faith but a better person.

Is there any good reason to have faith in the supernatural? To me, the answer is no. Having faith or believing in something is a copout--closing your mind to reality and having a god or some other form of supernatural entity or energy to explain what you cannot answer, rather than doing the investigating and questioning yourself. Why? Why have faith? Why believe in something that is likely not there? Why close your mind to the natural world?

What is your reason for having faith?

C_Town_Soul

They all have their different reasons, I guess. I think it's mainly because of convenience. All the thinking you'll ever need to do is already written down, and you don't have to lift a finger. dracula_16

What is with the misconception that religion is passive and that religious people never question the world around them. In fact, religion is anything but passive - on the other hand, atheism or agnosticism is passive. Some of History's greatest thinkers were religious. I constantly question my own religion and learn the differences between mine and others and also learn why my religion is right. I serve God as much as I can, I pray and read the Bible, I go to Church 3 times every weekend, and I try my best to help others and lead by example. If you asked me, religion is anything but passive and anything but a cop-out. Instead, religion plays an active role in my life and has only increased my curiosity about the world and about what happens after life. If you think about it, there would be no point to life unless something came after it because all of our bodies and souls are going to perish, but our spirit moves one to an afterlife either in hell or heaven. Out life is a test, and based on our actions, we will either end up in hell or heaven afterwards. It is this concept that gives life meaning that it would not have otherwise. It is this concept that drives me and many others to do good and to go against our human nature of being violent and jealous and hateful.

[QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"]

Is there any good reason to have faith in the supernatural? To me, the answer is no. Having faith or believing in something is a copout--closing your mind to reality and having a god or some other form of supernatural entity or energy to explain what you cannot answer, rather than doing the investigating and questioning yourself. Why? Why have faith? Why believe in something that is likely not there? Why close your mind to the natural world?

What is your reason for having faith?

abdelmessih101

They all have their different reasons, I guess. I think it's mainly because of convenience. All the thinking you'll ever need to do is already written down, and you don't have to lift a finger. dracula_16

What is with the misconception that religion is passive and that religious people never question the world around them. In fact, religion is nothing but passive - on the other hand, atheism or agnosticism is passive. Some of History's greatest thinkers were religious. I constantly question my own religion and learn the differences between mine and others and also learn why my religion is right. I serve God as much as I can, I pray and read the Bible, I go to Church 3 times every weekend, and I try my best to help others and lead by example. If you asked me, religion is anything but passive and anything but a cop-out. Instead, religion plays an active role in my life and has only increased my curiosity about the world and about what happens after life. If you think about it, there would be no point to life unless something came after it because all of our bodies and souls are going to perish, but our spirit moves one to an afterlife either in hell or heaven. Out life is a test, and based on our actions, we will either end up in hell or heaven afterwards. It is this concept that gives life meaning that it would not have otherwise. It is this concept that drives me and many others to do good and to go against our human nature of being violent and jealous and hateful.

Well said. :D

[QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"]

Is there any good reason to have faith in the supernatural? To me, the answer is no. Having faith or believing in something is a copout--closing your mind to reality and having a god or some other form of supernatural entity or energy to explain what you cannot answer, rather than doing the investigating and questioning yourself. Why? Why have faith? Why believe in something that is likely not there? Why close your mind to the natural world?

What is your reason for having faith?

abdelmessih101

They all have their different reasons, I guess. I think it's mainly because of convenience. All the thinking you'll ever need to do is already written down, and you don't have to lift a finger. dracula_16

What is with the misconception that religion is passive and that religious people never question the world around them. In fact, religion is nothing but passive - on the other hand, atheism or agnosticism is passive. Some of History's greatest thinkers were religious. I constantly question my own religion and learn the differences between mine and others and also learn why my religion is right. I serve God as much as I can, I pray and read the Bible, I go to Church 3 times every weekend, and I try my best to help others and lead by example. If you asked me, religion is anything but passive and anything but a cop-out. Instead, religion plays an active role in my life and has only increased my curiosity about the world and about what happens after life. If you think about it, there would be no point to life unless something came after it because all of our bodies and souls are going to perish, but our spirit moves one to an afterlife either in hell or heaven. Out life is a test, and based on our actions, we will either end up in hell or heaven afterwards. It is this concept that gives life meaning that it would not have otherwise. It is this concept that drives me and many others to do good and to go against our human nature of being violent and jealous and hateful.

Why does life always have to have a point? What is the point to living in the physical then going on the live eternally in the spiritual? Why not just be born into the spiritual?

For some it provides hope, hope that they won't just die and rot in the ground after their physical bodies cease to function. I just hope that more people come to realize that their faith can never be ultimately true to anyone besides themselves.foxhound_fox

That is very true. Atheists can't expect to understand someone else's belief of or relationship with God unless they also have a similar belief or relationship. And as a religious person, I also understand that I can't expect to change someone else's beliefs or lack thereof - only God can do that, and I can only hope that God uses me as a vessle to reach others. So regardless of your faith (or lack thereof), you have to understand that you can't change the opinions of others, and you have to respect whatever someone else believes (not accept it, but respect it).

The only thing I ask of atheists and agnostics is to acknowledge that my faith in Christianity, God, and the Bible is by no means a blind faith - that is an insult to my intelligence, to my entire faith, and most importantly, to God. I never have, and never will, believe "blindly" in anything.

[QUOTE="abdelmessih101"][QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"]

Is there any good reason to have faith in the supernatural? To me, the answer is no. Having faith or believing in something is a copout--closing your mind to reality and having a god or some other form of supernatural entity or energy to explain what you cannot answer, rather than doing the investigating and questioning yourself. Why? Why have faith? Why believe in something that is likely not there? Why close your mind to the natural world?

What is your reason for having faith?

NephilimRising

They all have their different reasons, I guess. I think it's mainly because of convenience. All the thinking you'll ever need to do is already written down, and you don't have to lift a finger. dracula_16

What is with the misconception that religion is passive and that religious people never question the world around them. In fact, religion is nothing but passive - on the other hand, atheism or agnosticism is passive. Some of History's greatest thinkers were religious. I constantly question my own religion and learn the differences between mine and others and also learn why my religion is right. I serve God as much as I can, I pray and read the Bible, I go to Church 3 times every weekend, and I try my best to help others and lead by example. If you asked me, religion is anything but passive and anything but a cop-out. Instead, religion plays an active role in my life and has only increased my curiosity about the world and about what happens after life. If you think about it, there would be no point to life unless something came after it because all of our bodies and souls are going to perish, but our spirit moves one to an afterlife either in hell or heaven. Out life is a test, and based on our actions, we will either end up in hell or heaven afterwards. It is this concept that gives life meaning that it would not have otherwise. It is this concept that drives me and many others to do good and to go against our human nature of being violent and jealous and hateful.

Why does life always have to have a point? What is the point to living in the physical then going on the live eternally in the spiritual? Why not just be born into the spiritual?

Life has a point because God gives it one. Life isn't physical then eternity spiritual... there is spirituality now and there will be physical then. The physical and spiritual are not two separate entities that never intertwine. Also, eternal life doesn't begin at death but when one begins to life a life that seeks to follow Christ.

[QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"]

Is there any good reason to have faith in the supernatural? To me, the answer is no. Having faith or believing in something is a copout--closing your mind to reality and having a god or some other form of supernatural entity or energy to explain what you cannot answer, rather than doing the investigating and questioning yourself. Why? Why have faith? Why believe in something that is likely not there? Why close your mind to the natural world?

What is your reason for having faith?

abdelmessih101

They all have their different reasons, I guess. I think it's mainly because of convenience. All the thinking you'll ever need to do is already written down, and you don't have to lift a finger. dracula_16

What is with the misconception that religion is passive and that religious people never question the world around them. In fact, religion is anything but passive - on the other hand, atheism or agnosticism is passive. Some of History's greatest thinkers were religious. I constantly question my own religion and learn the differences between mine and others and also learn why my religion is right. I serve God as much as I can, I pray and read the Bible, I go to Church 3 times every weekend, and I try my best to help others and lead by example. If you asked me, religion is anything but passive and anything but a cop-out. Instead, religion plays an active role in my life and has only increased my curiosity about the world and about what happens after life. If you think about it, there would be no point to life unless something came after it because all of our bodies and souls are going to perish, but our spirit moves one to an afterlife either in hell or heaven. Out life is a test, and based on our actions, we will either end up in hell or heaven afterwards. It is this concept that gives life meaning that it would not have otherwise. It is this concept that drives me and many others to do good and to go against our human nature of being violent and jealous and hateful.

[QUOTE="NephilimRising"][QUOTE="abdelmessih101"][QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"]

Is there any good reason to have faith in the supernatural? To me, the answer is no. Having faith or believing in something is a copout--closing your mind to reality and having a god or some other form of supernatural entity or energy to explain what you cannot answer, rather than doing the investigating and questioning yourself. Why? Why have faith? Why believe in something that is likely not there? Why close your mind to the natural world?

What is your reason for having faith?

mindstorm

They all have their different reasons, I guess. I think it's mainly because of convenience. All the thinking you'll ever need to do is already written down, and you don't have to lift a finger. dracula_16

What is with the misconception that religion is passive and that religious people never question the world around them. In fact, religion is nothing but passive - on the other hand, atheism or agnosticism is passive. Some of History's greatest thinkers were religious. I constantly question my own religion and learn the differences between mine and others and also learn why my religion is right. I serve God as much as I can, I pray and read the Bible, I go to Church 3 times every weekend, and I try my best to help others and lead by example. If you asked me, religion is anything but passive and anything but a cop-out. Instead, religion plays an active role in my life and has only increased my curiosity about the world and about what happens after life. If you think about it, there would be no point to life unless something came after it because all of our bodies and souls are going to perish, but our spirit moves one to an afterlife either in hell or heaven. Out life is a test, and based on our actions, we will either end up in hell or heaven afterwards. It is this concept that gives life meaning that it would not have otherwise. It is this concept that drives me and many others to do good and to go against our human nature of being violent and jealous and hateful.

Why does life always have to have a point? What is the point to living in the physical then going on the live eternally in the spiritual? Why not just be born into the spiritual?

Life has a point because God gives it one. Life isn't physical then eternity spiritual... there is spirituality now and there will be physical then. The physical and spiritual are not two separate entities that never intertwine. Also, eternal life doesn't begin at death but when one begins to life a life that seeks to follow Christ.

So what's the point of non-human life? Last I checked Christian dogma states that only humans have souls so that quickly eliminates the afterlife, God, and Jesus as reasons for life for anything that isn't human. See, life is a lot more than just conciousness. You have to take into account that plants, fungi, and the myriad of microscopic life on this planet are all alive as well and are completely unaware of their own existence because they lack the capacity to think or sense (a phenomena exclusive to the animal kingdom).

When most people think of the meaning of life, what they really mean is what is the meaning of human life. Because when you ask what the meaning of all life is you are quickly forced to come to the realization that there is, in fact, no meaning whatsoever.

Also, I'd have to disagree with your statement that eternal life begins when you seek to follow Christ. According to Christianity everyone gets eternal life. Its just that some get a really crappy eternal life while other get a really nice one.