Would you live in Plato's utopian Republic?

So there's been discussionhere about if people would live in a Marx communist community, so for a change of pace, let's explore on the opposite end of the political spectrum, a radically conservative utopian society, as described by Plato

State is an aristocracy, ruled by the best of the best of society, with the virtue of wisdom, knowledge and reason. No room for democracy since people can easily elect bad leaders.

Three classes of society

1. Guardian (ruling class)
2. Guardian/Auxiliary (soldier class)
3. Common (everyone else)

If you're in the common class, it's pretty much business as usual except with a large emphasis on education, and censorship of harmful materials and arts, and generally people are limited in employment to the one thing they are best at doing. On top of that common people are privy to being protected by the very best of military and the very wisest of decision making leaders.

If you're in the Guardian class (and let's face it, we're all the best of the best here), you live communally, share mates communally, and even raise children communally. Reproductionis through eugenics (which is selective breeding and weeding out defects), and if you are truely the best of the best you can be of the leader class.

So really this society is designed to make the strongest, most orderly society possible in which everyone is capable of realising their greatest potential through virtue of justice and knowledge.

Would you live there?

So there's been discussionhere about if people would live in a Marx communist community, so for a change of pace, let's explore on the opposite end of the political spectrum, a radically conservative utopian society, as described by Plato

State is an aristocracy, ruled by the best of the best of society, with the virtue of wisdom, knowledge and reason. No room for democracy since people can easily elect bad leaders.

Three classes of society

1. Guardian (ruling class)
2. Guardian/Auxiliary (soldier class)
3. Common (everyone else)

If you're in the common class, it's pretty much business as usual except with a large emphasis on education, and censorship of harmful materials and arts, and generally people are limited in employment to the one thing they are best at doing. On top of that common people are privy to being protected by the very best of military and the very wisest of decision making leaders.

If you're in the Guardian class (and let's face it, we're all the best of the best here), you live communally, share mates communally, and even raise children communally. Reproductionis through eugenics (which is selective breeding and weeding out defects), and if you are truely the best of the best you can be of the leader ****

So really this society is designed to make the strongest, most orderly society possible in which everyone is capable of realising their greatest potential through virtue of justice and knowledge.

Would you live there?

_BlueDuck_

Also I think you should add that the Guardians (ruling cIass - basically the philosopher-kings) were supposed to live without any sort of possession. And also that the amount of wealth anyone could amount is highly regulated and restricted.

Anyway, no I wouldnt want to live in Plato's republic simply because Plato's frowned upon arts. No matter his justification based on the theory of the Forms, I still find it extreme.

Yeah, Plato described breeding festivals which gave Guardians seemingly random mates (though infact this was a noble lie, it's selective for the best offspring), and in the case of birth defects or children which came to be of lower quality than their parents (say, bronze or iron rather than silver or gold) they'd be sent down the river so to speak.

Yeah, Plato described breeding festivals which gave Guardians seemingly random mates (though infact this was a noble lie, it's selective for the best offspring), and in the case of birth defects or children which came to be of lower quality than their parents (say, bronze or iron rather than silver or gold) they'd be sent down the river so to speak.

_BlueDuck_

I best read the original text soon then to get to know any nasty details. :P

The arts restriction has something to do with the Forms, isn't it?

The arts restriction has something to do with the Forms, isn't it?

darkguy_101

Basically in case of painting he thought that since the objects around as are lesser "copies" of the Forms, then the painting is a lesser copy of a lesser copy.

God made the Form of the table (for instance); The carpenter makes a copy of that form. The drawn work is an imperfect copy of an already imperfect copy.

As for poetry/literature etc Homer and Hesiod for instance were excluded from education because they presented the gods with negative qualities; he was also against most narrative works of his time because he was afraid that the young would relate to bad role-models which were often protagonists in poems/stories etc.

He approved though of hymns towards the gods, praising speeches for heroes and also of course philosophical dialogues.

He also disapproved of acting (ancient greek tragedy) because he claimed to be far from the truth of the Forms and that it presents very negative role-models and lastly because he claimed that it evokes human passions and that disturbs the harmony of the soul.

It would seem people have much stronger feelings about Marx thanPlato around here!

I don't think Plato's society, taken literally, would involve eugenics.

The Republic is metaphorical anyway.

[QUOTE="darkguy_101"]

The arts restriction has something to do with the Forms, isn't it?

Teenaged

Basically in case of painting he thought that since the objects around as are lesser "copies" of the Forms, then the painting is a lesser copy of a lesser copy.

God made the Form of the table (for instance); The carpenter makes a copy of that form. The drawn work is an imperfect copy of an already imperfect copy.

Another word for "form" here is "concept." There's the concept of a desk; you could eliminate every desk in the world and yet there'd still be the concept of one. Same with triangles, logic, God, etc.

Yeah, Plato described breeding festivals which gave Guardians seemingly random mates (though infact this was a noble lie, it's selective for the best offspring), and in the case of birth defects or children which came to be of lower quality than their parents (say, bronze or iron rather than silver or gold) they'd be sent down the river so to speak.

_BlueDuck_

. . . I'm 99% certain that this isn't in the Republic.

[QUOTE="_BlueDuck_"]

Yeah, Plato described breeding festivals which gave Guardians seemingly random mates (though infact this was a noble lie, it's selective for the best offspring), and in the case of birth defects or children which came to be of lower quality than their parents (say, bronze or iron rather than silver or gold) they'd be sent down the river so to speak.

Theokhoth

. . . I'm 99% certain that this isn't in the Republic.

Here are some quotes from Book V which I'm reffering to.

"...the best of either sex should be united with the best as often, and the inferior with the inferior, as seldom as possible; and that they should rear the offspring of the one sort of union, but not of the other, if the flock is to be maintained in first rate condition. Now these goings on must be a secret which the rulers only know, or there will be a further danger of our herd, as the guardians may be termed, breaking out into rebellion."

"Had we not better appoint certain festivals at which we will bring together the bride and bridegrooms, and sacrifices will be offered and suitable hymneal songs composed by our poets: the number of weddings is a matter which must be left to the discretion of the rulers, whose aim will be to preserve the average population?"

"..but the offspring of the inferior, or of the better when they chance be deformed, will be put away in some mysterious, unkown place, as they should be. Yes he said, that must be done if the breed of the guardians is to be kept pure."

No, I wouldn't. I'd leave and make my own country.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="darkguy_101"]

The arts restriction has something to do with the Forms, isn't it?

Theokhoth

Basically in case of painting he thought that since the objects around as are lesser "copies" of the Forms, then the painting is a lesser copy of a lesser copy.

God made the Form of the table (for instance); The carpenter makes a copy of that form. The drawn work is an imperfect copy of an already imperfect copy.

Another word for "form" here is "concept." There's the concept of a desk; you could eliminate every desk in the world and yet there'd still be the concept of one. Same with triangles, logic, God, etc.

It's just like socialism; sounds good on paper, but in reality it would never work on a species like ours.clubsammich91

[QUOTE="clubsammich91"]It's just like socialism; sounds good on paper, but in reality it would never work on a species like ours.Teenaged

It's just like socialism; sounds good on paper, but in reality it would never work on a species like ours.clubsammich91