Best way to get 5.1 from my PC to reciever?

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kraken2109

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#1 kraken2109
Member since 2009 • 13271 Posts

So you may have seen my earlier post, I now have a Denon AVR 1912 AV receiver.

I haven't had a chance to test it out yet, but I had bought the cables I thought I needed. However, I bought an optical (toslink) to get audio from my PC to the receiver. After some reading i've discovered that my sound card (Asus Xonar DG) doesn't do the dolby/DTS stuff needed to output anything more than 2 channels over optical (It only does PCM).

If I bought a DVI to HDMI cable and connected the s/pdif cable from my graphics card to the sound card (it has a header for it), would this allow me to do 5.1 PCM? If this works would it be the best option or is there something else I could do?

Thanks for your help.

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ydnarrewop

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#2 ydnarrewop
Member since 2004 • 2293 Posts

"It only does PCM" PCM is better than Dolby/DTS....not HD audio though (dolby true hd and dts hd): Nothing beats that.

Only giving you two channels though is bad. Upgrade the card?

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KHAndAnime

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#3 KHAndAnime
Member since 2009 • 17565 Posts

"It only does PCM" PCM is better than Dolby/DTS....not HD audio though (dolby true hd and dts hd): Nothing beats that.

Only giving you two channels though is bad. Upgrade the card?

ydnarrewop
I thought PCM generally refers to only a stereo stream, so for 5.1, it's certainly not better than Dolby/DTS. A Multi-channel PCM stream on the other hand is better, but I don't know how to achieve it on PC. The only way I've managed to successfully get some form of 5.1 is with my X-Fi XtremeGamer or Forte and then downloading a package called "Dolby Digital Live", which gives a 5.1 Dolby stream.
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NamelessPlayer

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#4 NamelessPlayer
Member since 2004 • 7729 Posts
PCM is uncompressed digital sound. That's all it is. I don't see how any codec like Dolby TrueHD or DTS Master Audio can be better than PCM, in that sense; at the best, they'd be like lossless compression. The problem is that S/PDIF has only enough bandwidth for two channels of PCM, compared to HDMI having enough bandwidth for EIGHT PCM channels. This is why lossy codecs like Dolby Digital and DTS exist in the first place-to shove six channels into that limited S/PDIF bandwidth. I'm actually surprised that the Xonar DG doesn't support Dolby Digital Live while supporting Dolby Headphone. Just seems like an imbalanced feature set, but I guess Asus needed to sell the higher-tier cards somehow. Since you're going to be bypassing the sound card's analog outputs anyway, I suggest getting the most affordable sound card that supports either Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect. Make it an X-Fi Titanium if you care about EAX 3/4/5 support in older games, but if not, anything goes.
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kraken2109

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#5 kraken2109
Member since 2009 • 13271 Posts

I was hoping to fix this without buying a new soundcard or spending a lot of money. Does anyone know if my HDMI idea will work since HDMI has enough bandwidth to send 7.1 PCM?

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Bozanimal

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#6 Bozanimal
Member since 2003 • 2500 Posts
What motherboard do you have? Both my motherboards support Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS. I run an optical S/PDIF to my receiver and HDMI to my monitor without any issues and full digital decoding. Note also that you only need Dolby Digital Live if you are watching content not originally created in 5.1 or 7.1; it encodes a digital surround signal on the fly from 2.0 channel audio, so if you're only watching DVDs and/or Blu-Ray, it's not necessary. If you're playing video games, though, that's another story! ;) Boz
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DeltaX_basic

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#7 DeltaX_basic
Member since 2003 • 206 Posts

I think the best way is digital tos cable. I don't think it really matter what card you have since your receiver does the work if your going digital. I guess the card may matter for the software it supports. Other then that it doesn't matter. I guess hdmi would work don't know how good sound is from a video card.

If your receiver says DD on it then it's doing 5.1.

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kraken2109

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#8 kraken2109
Member since 2009 • 13271 Posts

What motherboard do you have? Both my motherboards support Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS. I run an optical S/PDIF to my receiver and HDMI to my monitor without any issues and full digital decoding. Note also that you only need Dolby Digital Live if you are watching content not originally created in 5.1 or 7.1; it encodes a digital surround signal on the fly from 2.0 channel audio, so if you're only watching DVDs and/or Blu-Ray, it's not necessary. If you're playing video games, though, that's another story! ;) BozBozanimal

Motherboard is an Asus M4N 78. I doubt it has better options than my Xonar. I'm using an optical toslink and getting stereo PCM no problem, it's just because of cable bandwidth it is limited to stereo when it comes to PCM.

It's interesting that you meantion Dolby Digital Live, because from what I've read online that's what I need to get 5.1 from games. I haven't tried any games yet, i think the xonar can pass through dolby digital, DTS and WMA pro. What do games tend to use? The reciever can easily turn 2.0 into 5.1 with Prologic etc but I want proper 5.1 in my games.

Thanks for your help.

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Bozanimal

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#9 Bozanimal
Member since 2003 • 2500 Posts
Going back and rereading your issues, I'm not sure why you'd use an optical cable - or your sound card, for that matter - at all. Run the HDMI cable from your video card to the receiver, and then a second HDMI cable from the receiver to your monitor (using a DVI connector at the monitor if necessary). This should get you your surround sound and video support, if I'm not mistaken. Happy gaming, Boz
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kraken2109

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#10 kraken2109
Member since 2009 • 13271 Posts
[QUOTE="Bozanimal"]Going back and rereading your issues, I'm not sure why you'd use an optical cable - or your sound card, for that matter - at all. Run the HDMI cable from your video card to the receiver, and then a second HDMI cable from the receiver to your monitor (using a DVI connector at the monitor if necessary). This should get you your surround sound and video support, if I'm not mistaken. Happy gaming, Boz

GTX 275 doesn't have HDMI. That's the problem.
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Bozanimal

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#11 Bozanimal
Member since 2003 • 2500 Posts
No HDMI but it has an SPDIF header? Boz
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NamelessPlayer

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#12 NamelessPlayer
Member since 2004 • 7729 Posts
It's interesting that you meantion Dolby Digital Live, because from what I've read online that's what I need to get 5.1 from games. I haven't tried any games yet, i think the xonar can pass through dolby digital, DTS and WMA pro. What do games tend to use?kraken2109
PC games generally don't have pre-encoded audio at all, for obvious reasons. There may be a few where the game engine's sound middleware supports it without any need for sound card features, but those cases are few and far between. The choice to use Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect just depends on what your receiver can decode.
Going back and rereading your issues, I'm not sure why you'd use an optical cable - or your sound card, for that matter - at all. Run the HDMI cable from your video card to the receiver, and then a second HDMI cable from the receiver to your monitor (using a DVI connector at the monitor if necessary). This should get you your surround sound and video support, if I'm not mistaken.Bozanimal
GTX 275 not having HDMI output aside, this is a very bad idea if he cares at all about EAX support in older games. I doubt graphics card audio implementations even have the basic EAX 1/2 support that practically all sound cards do, let alone a DirectSound3D wrapper to restore hardware-accelerated audio for games that use that API in Vista/Win7. If he doesn't care, though, it would simplify things immensely...were it not for that GTX 275 issue.
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kraken2109

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#13 kraken2109
Member since 2009 • 13271 Posts

PC games generally don't have pre-encoded audio at all, for obvious reasons. There may be a few where the game engine's sound middleware supports it without any need for sound card features, but those cases are few and far between. The choice to use Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect just depends on what your receiver can decode. [QUOTE="Bozanimal"]Going back and rereading your issues, I'm not sure why you'd use an optical cable - or your sound card, for that matter - at all. Run the HDMI cable from your video card to the receiver, and then a second HDMI cable from the receiver to your monitor (using a DVI connector at the monitor if necessary). This should get you your surround sound and video support, if I'm not mistaken.NamelessPlayer
GTX 275 not having HDMI output aside, this is a very bad idea if he cares at all about EAX support in older games. I doubt graphics card audio implementations even have the basic EAX 1/2 support that practically all sound cards do, let alone a DirectSound3D wrapper to restore hardware-accelerated audio for games that use that API in Vista/Win7. If he doesn't care, though, it would simplify things immensely...were it not for that GTX 275 issue.

If I use it with my soundcard (which has ASUS GX gaming stuff) I think it can do all the EAX stuff.

No HDMI but it has an SPDIF header?

BozBozanimal

It has the header but DVI out. I'd assume it wouldn't have the cable and header if it couldn't send audio down a DVI to HDMI cable.

Does anyone know if using the header from the sound card to graphics card and using a DVI to HDMI cable from PC to receiver will give me multi channel PCM?

Planning on buying this cable for it, one of the reviews says he got sound from it.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-Data%C2%AE-Quality-Copper-Oxygen/dp/B0039OF91Y/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

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Bozanimal

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#14 Bozanimal
Member since 2003 • 2500 Posts
DVI does not pass-through audio. Basically, when you convert HDMI to DVI, it strips out the audio. Boz
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kraken2109

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#15 kraken2109
Member since 2009 • 13271 Posts
[QUOTE="Bozanimal"]DVI does not pass-through audio. Basically, when you convert HDMI to DVI, it strips out the audio. Boz

I've read numerous sources that say different. How else are people getting sound from graphics cards over DVI? Unfortunately I just spoke to an nvidia live support guy, he said my 275 doesn't support more than stereo pcm anyway. I don't know what to do now.
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#16 Bozanimal
Member since 2003 • 2500 Posts
[QUOTE="kraken2109"]I've read numerous sources that say different. How else are people getting sound from graphics cards over DVI? Unfortunately I just spoke to an nvidia live support guy, he said my 275 doesn't support more than stereo pcm anyway. I don't know what to do now.

Hmm; as I said, standard DVI does not support an audio signal, but it would seem the GTX 200 series supports audio via the DVI to HDMI converter if you connect the SPDIF header on your audio card or motherboard to the two-pin connector on the card. This seems to be unique to this series of cards. I can't vouch for multichannel digital audio pass-through, but I can tell you that I get Dolby Digital from my GIGABYTE GA-MA770-UD3 via its optical output, and it uses an ALC888 audio chipset. I'd connect the SPDIF header from your sound card to your video card and run it through your receiver and just see what happens, personally, since the information you're getting is kind of vague. Not the cut-and-dry answer I'd like to give, but I don't have much more time to research this. Maybe put a call in to Asus and just ask if it'll pass-through the digital audio from your DVD player. :? Boz
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kraken2109

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#17 kraken2109
Member since 2009 • 13271 Posts
[QUOTE="Bozanimal"][QUOTE="kraken2109"]I've read numerous sources that say different. How else are people getting sound from graphics cards over DVI? Unfortunately I just spoke to an nvidia live support guy, he said my 275 doesn't support more than stereo pcm anyway. I don't know what to do now.

Hmm; as I said, standard DVI does not support an audio signal, but it would seem the GTX 200 series supports audio via the DVI to HDMI converter if you connect the SPDIF header on your audio card or motherboard to the two-pin connector on the card. This seems to be unique to this series of cards. I can't vouch for multichannel digital audio pass-through, but I can tell you that I get Dolby Digital from my GIGABYTE GA-MA770-UD3 via its optical output, and it uses an ALC888 audio chipset. I'd connect the SPDIF header from your sound card to your video card and run it through your receiver and just see what happens, personally, since the information you're getting is kind of vague. Not the cut-and-dry answer I'd like to give, but I don't have much more time to research this. Maybe put a call in to Asus and just ask if it'll pass-through the digital audio from your DVD player. :? Boz

I spoke to some indian guy on nvidia live support. He seemed to say that the 275/280/285/295 only support stereo PCM anyway. So I have 3 options: Buy a £5 DVI to HDMI cable and hope he's wrong Buy a soundcard with dolby digital live Buy a new graphics card that does PCM over HDMI My options are not looking good. My Xonar supports dolby digital so in theory (haven't tried yet) it should do 5.1 from DVDs, but I use my PS3 for films. Why is it so hard to get 5.1 from a PC?!
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#18 Bozanimal
Member since 2003 • 2500 Posts
I'll be honest: I think he's wrong. Like Namelessplayer said, a two-channel PCM stream has enough bandwidth for a compressed multichannel audio stream (e.g. Dolby Digital). It won't get you discrete multichannel audio from games, but it will pass-through multichannel audio from DVDs. Just be sure you connect the SPDIF header of the sound card or motherboard to the input on the video card, and try the HDMI route: It's the cheapest possible solution, and you've got the least to lose by going down this path. This will not get you discrete, digital, multichannel audio from games on-the-fly, the only way to get that is via Dolby Digital Live OR DTS Connect encoding. In this case you will need an audio chipset that supports it via a new motherboard or audio card, but there are lots of mobos and cards that support one or the other, with HT and Creative going the Dolby route and Asus going the DTS route. Boz
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kraken2109

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#19 kraken2109
Member since 2009 • 13271 Posts
[QUOTE="Bozanimal"]I'll be honest: I think he's wrong. Like Namelessplayer said, a two-channel PCM stream has enough bandwidth for a compressed multichannel audio stream (e.g. Dolby Digital). It won't get you discrete multichannel audio from games, but it will pass-through multichannel audio from DVDs. Just be sure you connect the SPDIF header of the sound card or motherboard to the input on the video card, and try the HDMI route: It's the cheapest possible solution, and you've got the least to lose by going down this path. This will not get you discrete, digital, multichannel audio from games on-the-fly, the only way to get that is via Dolby Digital Live OR DTS Connect encoding. In this case you will need an audio chipset that supports it via a new motherboard or audio card, but there are lots of mobos and cards that support one or the other, with HT and Creative going the Dolby route and Asus going the DTS route. Boz

I am already getting stereo PCM (and should get dolby 5.1 but i haven't tried it yet) fine over optical from my Xonar DG, but i'm tempted to try DVI to HDMI just in case he's wrong. So the only ways to get proper 5.1 from games is a new sound card or new graphics card. What's the cheapest sound card that would do it? Are DTS connect and Dolby Digital Live the same thing (will they both work with everything)? I'm tempted to save for a new graphics card anyway.
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#20 Bozanimal
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If you want on-the-fly digital surround encoding the least expensive option is either the ASUS Xonar DX or HT | OMEGA STRIKER. You'll have to do a little research to figure out which one you would prefer, since they're about the same price. Happy gaming, Boz
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#21 kraken2109
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[QUOTE="Bozanimal"]If you want on-the-fly digital surround encoding the least expensive option is either the ASUS Xonar DX or HT | OMEGA STRIKER. You'll have to do a little research to figure out which one you would prefer, since they're about the same price. Happy gaming, Boz

Can you explain how Dolby Digital Live and DTS Conenct work? Are they basically identical? From my understanding they take real multichannel audio and put it into multichannel Dolby or DTS rather than virtual surround like prologic? £50 is not something I want to spend on a sound card, but the Xonar DS is only £30 and seems to have DTS connect. Would this do the job? Thank you so much for your help.
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#22 NamelessPlayer
Member since 2004 • 7729 Posts
If I use it with my soundcard (which has ASUS GX gaming stuff) I think it can do all the EAX stuff.kraken2109
It would do EAX 1/2, at least. That covers many of the good old games from the late 1990s, like Thief 1 and 2. (Asus claimed it could even emulate EAX 5, but that got them in hot water with Creative. Thus, I'm not sure how well it works out for Battlefield 2 or 2142.) Still, you're stuck playing in stereo unless you replace that sound card, I hate to say. Doesn't seem like Asus offers a software DDL/DTSC upgrade option like Creative did for X-Fi owners.
In this case you will need an audio chipset that supports it via a new motherboard or audio card, but there are lots of mobos and cards that support one or the other, with HT and Creative going the Dolby route and Asus going the DTS route.Bozanimal
That last part's oversimplifying it a bit, though the rest of your post is pretty much on the money. Wtih X-Fi cards, it either that you get BOTH Dolby Digital Live and DTS Connect, or neither. While DTS Connect isn't available in Windows XP, I don't think anyone around here would want to bother with that OS these days. Meanwhile, Creative's software upgrade for the cards that aren't already pre-licensed with those technologies (basically all of their PCI ones, as the PCIe Titanium line already is licensed) will grant both of them. HT Omega seems to be much the same way: both Dolby and DTS on all of their cards that I've seen, even their lower-end Striker model (but that's still in the $75 range, where having both feature sets is expected). Asus, on the other hand, is a bit sporadic. Most of their cards actually seem more Dolby-centric, barring the Xonar DS(X) which exclusively uses DTS technologies (including DTS Connect). Even their famed Essence ST(X) products make no mention of DTS in the feature lists. The Xonar HDAV offers both Dolby and DTS features, though.
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kraken2109

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#23 kraken2109
Member since 2009 • 13271 Posts

I basically have 2 choices as I see it.

1. Spend £50 on a Xonar DX for DDL

2. Save up and upgrade my GPU

I might just stick to stereo for a while and get a new gpu.

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#24 Bozanimal
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Maybe I missed it, but how does a new GPU solve your issue? Even with "real" HDMI it's not going to give you DDL or DTS Connect, so you'll still only get multichannel audio from DVDs, which you would get anyway with your current HDMI setup. I R confused. Boz
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#25 NamelessPlayer
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[QUOTE="Bozanimal"]Maybe I missed it, but how does a new GPU solve your issue? Even with "real" HDMI it's not going to give you DDL or DTS Connect, so you'll still only get multichannel audio from DVDs, which you would get anyway with your current HDMI setup. I R confused.

HDMI's audio path has enough bandwidth for 8 channels of uncompressed PCM. You don't need to do anything to the source audio in PC games to get surround out of it, as a result. To be honest, I'm not sure what Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio are actually for in that case, since they're not meant to overcome a bandwidth limitation like the preceding versions of those codecs were. I'm guessing it's just to save space on Blu-ray movie discs.
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kraken2109

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#26 kraken2109
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[QUOTE="Bozanimal"]Maybe I missed it, but how does a new GPU solve your issue? Even with "real" HDMI it's not going to give you DDL or DTS Connect, so you'll still only get multichannel audio from DVDs, which you would get anyway with your current HDMI setup. I R confused.NamelessPlayer
HDMI's audio path has enough bandwidth for 8 channels of uncompressed PCM. You don't need to do anything to the source audio in PC games to get surround out of it, as a result. To be honest, I'm not sure what Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio are actually for in that case, since they're not meant to overcome a bandwidth limitation like the preceding versions of those codecs were. I'm guessing it's just to save space on Blu-ray movie discs.

Yeah, HDMI has the bandwidth for 8 channels of PCM.

And I guess you're right about TrueHD/MasterAudio. 7.1 PCM would probably be too big. They are still lossless though, just compressed lossless.