I haven't played Bioshock, but my brother played SS2. It was quite creepy even when I was only watching.

Bioshock does not hold much interest for me however.

it's no contest, really. ss2 is the better game. but bioshock i good too.fireandcloud

Couldn't have put it better myself. System Shock 2 is by far the better game, but BioShock is a good game.

It's just not the industry-changing work of art a lot of people claim it is.

Also, aliblabla2007, this argument has been done to death by mfsa and Biggest_Loser.

[QUOTE="fireandcloud"]it's no contest, really. ss2 is the better game. but bioshock i good too.fatshodan

Couldn't have put it better myself. System Shock 2 is by far the better game, but BioShock is a good game.

It's just not the industry-changing work of art a lot of people claim it is.

Also, aliblabla2007, this argument has been done to death by mfsa and Biggest_Loser.

son of a *beach*!!! 'but bioshock i good too?' that i stupid...

Both are good games and very imaginative, creepy, fun and engaging.

I don't think we need to talk about which is better -

As it has already been pointed out we've had this debate numerous times before -

Lets just appreciate both of these games for their strengths and contributions to our platform.

Bioshock is better becuse it has a better story.The grafich is great in both games:shock: i played Bioshock but SC2 whacted every traieler.:?Igor-Serbia

System Shock 2 and BioShock's stories are 95% identical. If you'd played them both, you'd know that.

I don't understand what your last sentence means, but I hope SC2 was a typo, because SC2 has nothing to do with this conversation.

is there a system shock 1? im always hearing about 2Sonir77

Yes, there is a SS1.

On topic, SS2 is the best FPS game in existence.

Bioshock is not. Bioshock is a pretty good game, it has some great moments. Bioshock 2 has the potential to become one of the best games of that year. IF they improve on certain things. I won't go into detail about what those things might be.

[QUOTE="fireandcloud"]it's no contest, really. ss2 is the better game. but bioshock i good too.fatshodan

Couldn't have put it better myself. System Shock 2 is by far the better game, but BioShock is a good game.

It's just not the industry-changing work of art a lot of people claim it is.

Also, aliblabla2007, this argument has been done to death by mfsa and Biggest_Loser.

You mean with BL and... :P

The answer is *drum roll*

System Shock 2 of course! It has everything you would ever need in a FPS/RPG hybrids:

Many weapons, great story, shocking atmosphere, intelligent gameplay mechanics(which defined the game for me :D), a high difficulty level (sadly:() and twists which freshens it up a little.

Bioshock is NOT a bad game but i hate the fact that the gameplay is dumbed down crap against SS2. At least it's atmospheric. And has a storyline similiar to SS2 with Atlas/Fontaine replacing SHODAN, Ryan replacing "The Many" and the splicers... erm... replacing... The enemies (that sure makes sense XD)

2K should've made it like this:

Console gamers get the simple version of bioshock without all this mouse requiring inventory madness and pc gamers get a FPS/RPG hybrid version with all the gameplay mechanics that made System Shock 2 O-SOME. Just like westwood made it with dune 2000 (the PC gamers got a 2d version and the PS gamers got a 3d version)

I haven't played BioShock yet but SS2 set a big standard IMO. Other than Oblivion, it's probably the most immersive game I've ever played.

Too bad it doesn't work on newer cards/systems. :(

ss2 I liked the complex nature of it, and that it was anything but run and gun.

the feeling of hiding in a dark corner, fiwh minimal health a soddy broken down pistol and 2 bullets, is permenantly burned into my memory.

Sadly biodhock diddnt burn any kinds of memory into my head, its a good game sure, but sadly it is too simple for me (the simplicity in construction) and I liked the more rpgish nature of ss2 better then the fpsish nature of Bioshock.

Perhaps it was because Bioshocks story were so similair to SS2, but lacking the Great Shodan (for me the best game character ever concived, the voice alone sent chills down my spine from the first audiotape where you hear her)

HMmm how do I say this without getting a "troll" warning like I did with my last Bioshock argument...

OK.

Even if you do think that Bioshock is a good game, anyone who has played both would be straight up cuuuuurazy to say Bioshock is better. Just my two cents.

HMmm how do I say this without getting a "troll" warning like I did with my last Bioshock argument...

OK.

Even if you do think that Bioshock is a good game, anyone who has played both would be straight up cuuuuurazy to say Bioshock is better. Just my two cents.

mrbojangles25

I've played both and I prefer Bioshock. It's a matter of preference, simple as that.

[QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

HMmm how do I say this without getting a "troll" warning like I did with my last Bioshock argument...

OK.

Even if you do think that Bioshock is a good game, anyone who has played both would be straight up cuuuuurazy to say Bioshock is better. Just my two cents.

chesterocks7

I've played both and I prefer Bioshock. It's a matter of preference, simple as that.

I can say I prefer the Jones Brothers over Muse, but that doesn't make the Jones Brothers better.(technically speaking)

[QUOTE="chesterocks7"][QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

HMmm how do I say this without getting a "troll" warning like I did with my last Bioshock argument...

OK.

Even if you do think that Bioshock is a good game, anyone who has played both would be straight up cuuuuurazy to say Bioshock is better. Just my two cents.

Lonelynight

I've played both and I prefer Bioshock. It's a matter of preference, simple as that.

I can say I prefer the Jones Brothers over Muse, but that doesn't make the Jones Brothers better.(technically speaking)

exactly, the "its my opinion, so respect it" defense only goes so far lol

Next thing you know neonazis will be saying it. "Hey, its my opinion that blacks should all die, so just leave me be." Ummm, how about NO!

System Shock 2 is one of the all time great games. BioShock isn't even in the same league. It's like comparing "The Phantom Menace" to "The Empire Strikes Back."fenriz275

QFT

System Shock 2 is one of the all time great games. BioShock isn't even in the same league. It's like comparing "The Phantom Menace" to "The Empire Strikes Back."fenriz275

They have completely different play styles and purposes of their entertainment. Why would one even try to put them in the same class/league, whatever you want to call it.

[QUOTE="fenriz275"]System Shock 2 is one of the all time great games. BioShock isn't even in the same league. It's like comparing "The Phantom Menace" to "The Empire Strikes Back."biggest_loser

They have completely different play styles and purposes of their entertainment. Why would one even try to put them in the same class/league, whatever you want to call it.

1. The developers said Bioshock wouold be the spiritual successor to SS2

2. Bioshock imitates a lot more of SS2 than you know. In short, outside of the atmosphere and story, Bioshock is pretty much entirely like SS2...only dumbed down for console (cliche, I know, but true).

1. The developers said Bioshock wouold be the spiritual successor to SS2

2. Bioshock imitates a lot more of SS2 than you know. In short, outside of the atmosphere and story, Bioshock is pretty much entirely like SS2...only dumbed down for console (cliche, I know, but true).

mrbojangles25

Spiritual successor. There are elements that are incorporated from SS2 certainly. But you can't expect the exactly same game. Thats ridiculous. Its a new series, a new dynasty! Hahah!

If it was you would just say it was a carbon copy I think its much more accessible game than SS2 and for me, because of that, it was a much more fun experience.

Its not exactly like SS2. One is survival horror with scarce resources, the other is an action game where you are made to grow as powerful as possible. It has nothing to do with being dumbed down at all. If it was released exclusively to PC it would be the same game.

[Spiritual successor. There are elements that are incorporated from SS2 certainly. But you can't expect the exactly same game. Thats ridiculous. Its a new series, a new dynasty! Hahah! biggest_loser

When did you first become aware of BioSHock? I ask as some of us, such as myself, have been following the game ever since those first concept pictures were released all those years back. For the entire game's development - through interviews, previews and podcasts, Ken and co. have been telling us that the game would have well developed roleplaying mechanics just like in SS2, and the game would appeal very much to Shock 2 fans.

And for a long time, it did actually seem like the game was going that way - if the read the earliest info on the game, there's some complex stuff in there, but focus group after focus group had people not "getting" it, and they dumbed it down and down and down into what it is today.

BioShock is not System Shock 3, and Shock 2 fans don't like that, but it's made all the worse by the fact that the game was going to be System Shock 3. It's people who defend BS - the same kinds of people who didn't "get" the game in those focus groups - who are responsible for the dreadful state it ended up in.

[If it was you would just say it was a carbon copy I think its much more accessible game than SS2 and for me, because of that, it was a much more fun experience. biggest_loser

No, you're wrong. The story notwithstanding (because that should not have been the complete copy it is), System Shock 2 fans did want a carbon copy - or near enough. Look at all the Deus Ex fans saying, I hope it'll be just like DX1. That's exactly what SS2 fans want. We want more of the same, and a big part of the reason we're all so anti-BioShock is that it takes everything that made SS2 what it is, and then it strips out all the best stuff.

[It has nothing to do with being dumbed down at all. If it was released exclusively to PC it would be the same game.biggest_loser

That's not necessarily true at all - the PC audience is very different to the console audience, even when it comes to mainstream FPS games. Just look at Valve and Bungie - they both make mainstream FPS games, yet Valve sees little success outside of the PC, and Bungie sees little success outside of the Xbox.

But the game certainly is dumbed down from SS2, and that's a big reason why a lot of Shock 2 fans dislike it. Almost everything I dislike in BS is in SS2, only it's done in a more complicated or more challenging-for-the-player way.

[QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

1. The developers said Bioshock wouold be the spiritual successor to SS2

2. Bioshock imitates a lot more of SS2 than you know. In short, outside of the atmosphere and story, Bioshock is pretty much entirely like SS2...only dumbed down for console (cliche, I know, but true).

biggest_loser

Spiritual successor. There are elements that are incorporated from SS2 certainly. But you can't expect the exactly same game. Thats ridiculous. Its a new series, a new dynasty! Hahah!

If it was you would just say it was a carbon copy I think its much more accessible game than SS2 and for me, because of that, it was a much more fun experience.

Its not exactly like SS2. One is survival horror with scarce resources, the other is an action game where you are made to grow as powerful as possible. It has nothing to do with being dumbed down at all. If it was released exclusively to PC it would be the same game.

I was not expecting the same game, but I was expecting a game of the same calibre. This is where opinions differ, however, and I do see your point so lets leave that be.

And as for point two, yes I know its not exactly like SS2, but it barrowed so many things from SS2 yet at the same time made these similiarities worse. I think that is 90% of why I dont think Bioshock is a good game. not because Bioshock is a bad game, but because its a discredit to what it should have been.

And I think it is a discredit because it was dumbed down. Maybe I am right, maybe I am wrong...but that is what it feels like to me.

[QUOTE="biggest_loser"][Spiritual successor. There are elements that are incorporated from SS2 certainly. But you can't expect the exactly same game. Thats ridiculous. Its a new series, a new dynasty! Hahah! fatshodan

When did you first become aware of BioSHock? I ask as some of us, such as myself, have been following the game ever since those first concept pictures were released all those years back. For the entire game's development - through interviews, previews and podcasts, Ken and co. have been telling us that the game would have well developed roleplaying mechanics just like in SS2, and the game would appeal very much to Shock 2 fans.

And for a long time, it did actually seem like the game was going that way - if the read the earliest info on the game, there's some complex stuff in there, but focus group after focus group had people not "getting" it, and they dumbed it down and down and down into what it is today.

BioShock is not System Shock 3, and Shock 2 fans don't like that, but it's made all the worse by the fact that the game was going to be System Shock 3. It's people who defend BS - the same kinds of people who didn't "get" the game in those focus groups - who are responsible for the dreadful state it ended up in.

[If it was you would just say it was a carbon copy I think its much more accessible game than SS2 and for me, because of that, it was a much more fun experience. biggest_loser

No, you're wrong. The story notwithstanding (because that should not have been the complete copy it is), System Shock 2 fans did want a carbon copy - or near enough. Look at all the Deus Ex fans saying, I hope it'll be just like DX1. That's exactly what SS2 fans want. We want more of the same, and a big part of the reason we're all so anti-BioShock is that it takes everything that made SS2 what it is, and then it strips out all the best stuff.

[It has nothing to do with being dumbed down at all. If it was released exclusively to PC it would be the same game.biggest_loser

That's not necessarily true at all - the PC audience is very different to the console audience, even when it comes to mainstream FPS games. Just look at Valve and Bungie - they both make mainstream FPS games, yet Valve sees little success outside of the PC, and Bungie sees little success outside of the Xbox.

But the game certainly is dumbed down from SS2, and that's a big reason why a lot of Shock 2 fans dislike it. Almost everything I dislike in BS is in SS2, only it's done in a more complicated or more challenging-for-the-player way.

yet again you explain what I am trying to say a lot more clearly and, dare I say, poeticly.

Oh God the underlining! Why, GameSpot? Why??????

[QUOTE="Lonelynight"][QUOTE="chesterocks7"][QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

HMmm how do I say this without getting a "troll" warning like I did with my last Bioshock argument...

OK.

Even if you do think that Bioshock is a good game, anyone who has played both would be straight up cuuuuurazy to say Bioshock is better. Just my two cents.

mrbojangles25

I've played both and I prefer Bioshock. It's a matter of preference, simple as that.

I can say I prefer the Jones Brothers over Muse, but that doesn't make the Jones Brothers better.(technically speaking)

exactly, the "its my opinion, so respect it" defense only goes so far lol

Next thing you know neonazis will be saying it. "Hey, its my opinion that blacks should all die, so just leave me be." Ummm, how about NO!

Right except we're talking about which game we enjoy more not who has the right to live and who doesn't. That's a ridiculous comparison. This is like asking which is better, hamburgers or pizza. You may like hamburgers but I like pizza, so it just gets down to which you like more. I'm not asking you accept my opinion as the objective truth, but asking which game is better is going to get down to personal preference. You can claim your opinion as truth all you want, but it's just your opinion and nothing more.

Right except we're talking about which game we enjoy more not who has the right to live and who doesn't. That's a ridiculous comparison. This is like asking which is better, hamburgers or pizza. You may like hamburgers but I like pizza, so it just gets down to which you like more. I'm not asking you accept my opinion as the objective truth, but asking which game is better is going to get down to personal preference. You can claim your opinion as truth all you want, but it's just your opinion and nothing more.

chesterocks7

You can like what you want, but if speaking from a technical point, than mrbojangles25 is right.

That's not necessarily true at all - the PC audience is very different to the console audience, even when it comes to mainstream FPS games. Just look at Valve and Bungie - they both make mainstream FPS games, yet Valve sees little success outside of the PC, and Bungie sees little success outside of the Xbox.

fatshodan

SS2 wasnt a financial success. There were bound to be some gameplay changes made for a publisher to agree to fund development whether it was pc only or not.

Halo CE was a big hit on pc. Came out 2 years after the xbox version. Imagine how huge it would have been if it was released on pc in 2001?

More people are playing Halo CE than Quake Wars or UT2004 at this moment.

Halo 2 has ridiculously outdated graphics and requires Vista. No wonder it didnt sell.

Most consolers dont know much about the HL franchise. The Orange Box commercial was terrible. There also wasnt much hype on gamesites either.

[QUOTE="chesterocks7"]

Right except we're talking about which game we enjoy more not who has the right to live and who doesn't. That's a ridiculous comparison. This is like asking which is better, hamburgers or pizza. You may like hamburgers but I like pizza, so it just gets down to which you like more. I'm not asking you accept my opinion as the objective truth, but asking which game is better is going to get down to personal preference. You can claim your opinion as truth all you want, but it's just your opinion and nothing more.

Lonelynight

You can like what you want, but if speaking from a technical point, than mrbojangles25 is right.

Which game is better in your opinion?

aliblabla2007

Enough said.

[QUOTE="mrbojangles25"][QUOTE="Lonelynight"][QUOTE="chesterocks7"][QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

HMmm how do I say this without getting a "troll" warning like I did with my last Bioshock argument...

OK.

Even if you do think that Bioshock is a good game, anyone who has played both would be straight up cuuuuurazy to say Bioshock is better. Just my two cents.

chesterocks7

I've played both and I prefer Bioshock. It's a matter of preference, simple as that.

I can say I prefer the Jones Brothers over Muse, but that doesn't make the Jones Brothers better.(technically speaking)

exactly, the "its my opinion, so respect it" defense only goes so far lol

Next thing you know neonazis will be saying it. "Hey, its my opinion that blacks should all die, so just leave me be." Ummm, how about NO!

Right except we're talking about which game we enjoy more not who has the right to live and who doesn't. That's a ridiculous comparison. This is like asking which is better, hamburgers or pizza. You may like hamburgers but I like pizza, so it just gets down to which you like more. I'm not asking you accept my opinion as the objective truth, but asking which game is better is going to get down to personal preference. You can claim your opinion as truth all you want, but it's just your opinion and nothing more.

not really.

From a technical standpoint, Pizza is indeed better than hamburgers.

What do you need to make a good hamburger? Ground beef, easily made buns for any basic baker, and a few condiments that require seconds of preparation.

Now, what do you need to make a good pizza? First, you need to make the dough. Not only that, but you need to know how to knead the dough and make it unto a thin circle. Next you need red sauce, which in itself is an art form. So, take some pureed tomatoes, fresh basil, garlic power, olive oil, salt, pepper, oregano to taste, and thin with a bit of water. THen you gotta choose the right cheese and toppings.

Now, I personally enjoy a good hamburger more than a good pizza (I do prefer a great pizza to a hamburger; after all, you can only make a hamburger so good before you turn it into something else). But I wont sit here and say that hamburgers are better than pizza, because thats crazy.

This applies to a lot of other things.

You might like Ford Mustangs, but you cant say theyre better than a Corvette

You might like Bud's San Francisco Ice Cream, but you cant say its better than genuine Italian Gelato.

You might dislike blondes, but you cant say a beautiful blonde is ugly.

The problem you people seem to have is that I am not arguing against your opinion. I am not saying youre wrong. I am saying simply that SS2 is a better game than Bioshock from a gameplay standpoint. If I said otherwise, then I apologize and will phrase myself better in the future

Bioshock is a fun game, that is my opinion. But it is not a great game. I mean, I love the movie Dumb and Dumber and its a good movie, but I am not going to expect it to go to the hall of fame. I dont expect Bioshock to go down in video game history books either. System Shock 2, however, is already there.

I hope this is a lesson to all of you, never use a food analogy when arguing against mrbojangles.fatshodan

But what if we're using a food analogy to debate against someone else, and he enters the debate halfway through the debate against us?

[QUOTE="chesterocks7"][QUOTE="mrbojangles25"][QUOTE="Lonelynight"][QUOTE="chesterocks7"][QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

HMmm how do I say this without getting a "troll" warning like I did with my last Bioshock argument...

OK.

Even if you do think that Bioshock is a good game, anyone who has played both would be straight up cuuuuurazy to say Bioshock is better. Just my two cents.

mrbojangles25

I've played both and I prefer Bioshock. It's a matter of preference, simple as that.

I can say I prefer the Jones Brothers over Muse, but that doesn't make the Jones Brothers better.(technically speaking)

exactly, the "its my opinion, so respect it" defense only goes so far lol

Next thing you know neonazis will be saying it. "Hey, its my opinion that blacks should all die, so just leave me be." Ummm, how about NO!

Right except we're talking about which game we enjoy more not who has the right to live and who doesn't. That's a ridiculous comparison. This is like asking which is better, hamburgers or pizza. You may like hamburgers but I like pizza, so it just gets down to which you like more. I'm not asking you accept my opinion as the objective truth, but asking which game is better is going to get down to personal preference. You can claim your opinion as truth all you want, but it's just your opinion and nothing more.

not really.

From a technical standpoint, Pizza is indeed better than hamburgers.

What do you need to make a good hamburger? Ground beef, easily made buns for any basic baker, and a few condiments that require seconds of preparation.

Now, what do you need to make a good pizza? First, you need to make the dough. Not only that, but you need to know how to knead the dough and make it unto a thin circle. Next you need red sauce, which in itself is an art form. So, take some pureed tomatoes, fresh basil, garlic power, olive oil, salt, pepper, oregano to taste, and thin with a bit of water. THen you gotta choose the right cheese and toppings.

Now, I personally enjoy a good hamburger more than a good pizza (I do prefer a great pizza to a hamburger; after all, you can only make a hamburger so good before you turn it into something else). But I wont sit here and say that hamburgers are better than pizza, because thats crazy.

This applies to a lot of other things.

You might like Ford Mustangs, but you cant say theyre better than a Corvette

You might like Bud's San Francisco Ice Cream, but you cant say its better than genuine Italian Gelato.

You might dislike blondes, but you cant say a beautiful blonde is ugly.

The problem you people seem to have is that I am not arguing against your opinion. I am not saying youre wrong. I am saying simply that SS2 is a better game than Bioshock from a gameplay standpoint. If I said otherwise, then I apologize and will phrase myself better in the future

Bioshock is a fun game, that is my opinion. But it is not a great game. I mean, I love the movie Dumb and Dumber and its a good movie, but I am not going to expect it to go to the hall of fame. I dont expect Bioshock to go down in video game history books either. System Shock 2, however, is already there.

[QUOTE="fatshodan"]I hope this is a lesson to all of you, never use a food analogy when arguing against mrbojangles.aliblabla2007

But what if we're using a food analogy to debate against someone else, and he enters the debate halfway through the debate against us?

Then you're screwed.

[QUOTE="aliblabla2007"]

[QUOTE="fatshodan"]I hope this is a lesson to all of you, never use a food analogy when arguing against mrbojangles.fatshodan

But what if we're using a food analogy to debate against someone else, and he enters the debate halfway through the debate against us?

Then you're screwed.

Huh.

Any other analogies I shouldn't use when Mrbo is online?