Critical analysis reveals the AMD 6000 series to be a flop...here's why....

Lets just put one number out there.

Ok so the GTX 460 is 3% slower and $20 more expensive so 6850 FTW? Well not so quick, letme get to my point.

Techpowerup review says in the cons of the 6850,

"Limited overclocking potential"

According to them there is only 6.1% increase in gaming performance, it's nothing compared to the increase the GTX 460 gets. Overclocked 6850 does NOT beat a stock 6870 whereas an overclocked 460 is beating the 6870 by 5% LET ALONE the 6850. Which is the better card again???

Heck wait a minute this is gonna get interesting let us see the oc potential of the 6870.

Acocrding to techpowerup the gains are 6.2%. Now letme check out GTX 460 review of techpowerup.

"The actual 3D performance gained from overclocking is 21.3%."

Seems to me there is absolutely no question that GTX 460 isbetterthan 6850 and is actually just as good as 6870at a cheaper price.

See what can be achieved by critical thourough analysis of the situation? I see the GTX 460 owners arent being fanboys when they say it's a monster overclocker....

Lets just put one number out there.

Ok so the GTX 460 is 3% slower and $20 more expensive so 6850 FTW? Well not so quick, letme get to my point.

Techpowerup review says in the cons of the 6850,

"Limited overclocking potential"

According to them there is only 6.1% increase in gaming performance, it's nothing compared to the increase the GTX 460 gets. Overclocked 6850 does NOT beat a stock 6870 whereas an overclocked 460 is beating the 6870 by 5% LET ALONE the 6850. Which is the better card again???

Heck wait a minute this is gonna get interesting let us see the oc potential of the 6870.

Acocrding to techpowerup the gains are 6.2%. Now letme check out GTX 460 review of techpowerup.

"The actual 3D performance gained from overclocking is 21.3%."

Seems to me there is absolutely no question that GTX 460 isbetterthan 6850 and is actually just as good as 6870at a cheaper price.

See what can be achieved by critical thourough analysis of the situation? I see the GTX 460 owners arent being fanboys when they say it's a monster overclocker....

Gambler_3

hmmm nice info but the cards were just released i really haven't read any reviews on em i'm to hell bent on getting my second 480 XD but anyways ima look into this i doubt there a flop.

See what can be achieved by critical thourough analysis of the situation? I see the GTX 460 owners arent being fanboys when they say it's a monster overclocker....

Gambler_3

This is very ironic...taken from the very same page:

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/HIS/Radeon_HD_6850/31.html

"The overclocks of our card are 820 MHz core (6% overclock) and 1115 MHz Memory (12% overclock). Compared to other HD 6800 cards we tested today, this overclock look extremely weak. All our other cards easily managed far above 900 MHz. One possible reason is that the GPU installed on the HIS HD 6850 is an Engineering Sample."

Proof:

http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-6850-6870-review/21

"Voltage tweaking is not yet an option."

That being said... if you're going to try to be "thorough" and "critical", at least shed some bias off first.

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]

See what can be achieved by critical thourough analysis of the situation? I see the GTX 460 owners arent being fanboys when they say it's a monster overclocker....

kaitanuvax

This is very ironic...taken from the very same page:

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/HIS/Radeon_HD_6850/31.html

"The overclocks of our card are 820 MHz core (6% overclock) and 1115 MHz Memory (12% overclock). Compared to other HD 6800 cards we tested today, this overclock look extremely weak. All our other cards easily managed far above 900 MHz. One possible reason is that the GPU installed on the HIS HD 6850 is an Engineering Sample."

Proof:

http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-6850-6870-review/21

"Voltage tweaking is not yet an option."

Here toms hardware, overclocked 6850 still loses to the GTX 460 OC. Voltage tweaking is an advanced feature which isnt applied to oced 460's either....

Toms hardware seems to have the most logical review. This is how they did it,

"the company wanted us to know that the reference clocks for the GeForce GTX 460 are essentially obsolete, that the majority of manufacturers are overclocking their cards, and that we should be benchmarking the new Radeons against factory-overclocked GeForce GTX 460 cards. Our initial reaction to this was a defensive reluctance to agree to anything of the sort (like Big Worm, we're adverse to anyone playing with our emotions). But since it's our duty to assess the market and compare prices and options, we spent some time investigating the claim. We looked at Newegg to see what the lowest-priced GeForce GTX 460 1 GB sold for, and then we catalogued the clock speeds of the cards within $5 of the lowest $220 price tag.

Out of the seven cards that fit those criteria, only two are equipped with the 675 MHz reference clock. The rest are overclocked between 700 and 765 MHz (core clock). With the vast majority of budget GeForce GTX 460 cards overclocked, the reference modeldoesn'treally give an accurate representation of the market. We decided the fairest thing to do was to average the clock rates of these cards. As a result, we are benchmarking the GeForce GTX 460 1 GB at 708 MHz for our tests, a 38 MHz increase over the original reference core clock. This increase is so low that, frankly, it will probably have no measurable impact on our results. It does seem like the fair thing to do, though. The memory runs at the reference 900 MHz GDDR5 clock, as even overclocked models tend to leave memory untouched."

They actually looked at the products available and compared them, not using an obsolete stock version. As it turns out the GTX 460 is the winner in their benchmarks.......

No problem dude, if you are not satisfied we can look other places as well.

Here toms hardware, overclocked 6850 still loses to the GTX 460 OC. Voltage tweaking is an advanced feature which isnt applied to oced 460's either....

Gambler_3

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/Radeon_HD_6850_Direct_Cu/31.html

(GTX 4601GB OC isn't on here but we all know it's barely a GTX 470's performance)

We can play this all day, you know.

"the company wanted us to know that the reference clocks for the GeForce GTX 460 are essentially obsolete

Gambler_3

And why is that? By OCing a GTX 460, you raise its power consumption greatly (and also mess with it stability over time). I don't know about you but I'd much prefer a low power consuming card at stock speeds.

And why is that? By OCing a GTX 460, you raise its power consumption greatly (and also mess with it stability over time). I don't know about you but I'd much prefer a low power consuming card at stock speeds.

kaitanuvax

Well I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure most gamers couldn't give a stuff how much power their PC uses. Gaming PC's aren't made to be power friendly, DERP.

Well I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure most gamers couldn't give a stuff how much power their PC uses. Gaming PC's aren't made to be power friendly, DERP.

C_Rule

It's called buying a better card? Not messing with your current one?

You only do that when it gets outdated. Not when it still plays games great.

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]

No problem dude, if you are not satisfied we can look other places as well.

Here toms hardware, overclocked 6850 still loses to the GTX 460 OC. Voltage tweaking is an advanced feature which isnt applied to oced 460's either....

kaitanuvax

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/Radeon_HD_6850_Direct_Cu/31.html

(GTX 4601GB OC isn't on here but we all know it's barely a GTX 470's performance)

We can play this all day, you know.

The only important thing to note here is that an oced 6850 is not beating 6870 whereas the GTX 460 does...

Anandtech is down right now, check out their review later, they found out oced GTX 460 to be 5% faster on "average" than a stock 6870.

[QUOTE="C_Rule"]

Well I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure most gamers couldn't give a stuff how much power their PC uses. Gaming PC's aren't made to be power friendly, DERP.

kaitanuvax

It's called buying a better card? Not messing with your current one?

You only do that when it gets outdated. Not when it still plays games great.

The only positive I can see for the 6850 is that it requires only 1 6-pin, otherwise the GTX 460 still remains the card to get...

It's just one game, talk overall.

The only important thing to note here is that an oced 6850 is not beating 6870 whereas the GTX 460 does...

Anandtech is down right now, check out their review later, they found out oced GTX 460 to be 5% faster on "average" than a stock 6870.

Gambler_3

You've showed me one game, so I did the same. I don't see how yours is more credible.

And I don't get where you're saying that a GTX 460 beats a 6870 when it doesn't even beat a GTX 470 (and we both see how the 6850 OC left the 470 in the dust in my benchmark).

6850 really isn't a flop. Its great competition and a alternative for people in this price bracket to game who prefer AMD/ATI side of things. Yes, gtx 460's SC editions can beat the card and depending on model cost less then a 6850 but you have already demonstrated one of the very best features.... fastest single 6 pin card out. That in itself grants it admittance with great performance, price, and well under the classification of "flop".

With that being said, alot of people are coming up with Misconceptions in comparison to nvidia and amd cards. For me personally, the 6850 battles against the 768mb gtx 460 and the 6870 battles against the gtx 460. This though all gets a bit mixed up as both companies price ranges are offset differently and nvidia with makers have many Super clock models out there. As a example, in my sig, you will notice I have a EVGA gtx 460 768mb SC edition. I got it on newegg for 169.99 with free shipping 2 weeks ago. For where I stand, the price I paid for my card to performance in comparison to the 6850 is higher compared to someone within my same bracket. In the end though, it comes down to preference. There IS NO REAL WINNER in these 2 price ranges, just 2 competitors fighting over the same land. No one wins, no on flops and the consumer gets to enjoy it.

Hi, the HD 6850 can overclock too?

Hi, the HD 6850 can overclock too?

kaitanuvax

Unless we know them, that graph is invalid.

For me personally, the 6850 battles against the 768mb gtx 460 and the 6870 battles against the gtx 460. This though all gets a bit mixed up as both companies price ranges are offset differently and nvidia with makers have many Super clock models out there. As a example, in my sig, you will notice I have a EVGA gtx 460 768mb SC edition. I got it on newegg for 169.99 with free shipping 2 weeks ago. For where I stand, the price I paid for my card to performance in comparison to the 6850 is higher compared to someone within my same bracket. In the end though, it comes down to preference. There IS NO REAL WINNER in these 2 price ranges, just 2 competitors fighting over the same land. No one wins, no on flops and the consumer gets to enjoy it.

jedikevin2

Yes, each to his own.

Guess which card can run on my PSU without any worry?

Hi, the HD 6850 can overclock too?

kaitanuvax

At the moment, no reviewer has done a true overclock to overclock review. We do have superclock versions of nvidia (those you can by straight out like EVGA FTW and SC edition cards) vs standard AMD cards. (legitreview, anandtech) I still wait to see a max overclock vs a maxoverclock review. As it stands now on what you can buy, a SC gtx 460 is faster thena 6850 and passes the 6870 in some games while also reaching up to gtx 470 speed.

[QUOTE="kaitanuvax"]

Hi, the HD 6850 can overclock too?

C_Rule

Unless we know them, that graph is invalid.

ASUS HD 6850: 900mhz core

XFX HD 6850: 925mhz core

GTX 460 OC: 800 mhz core

Jesus Christ you are the biggest fanboy I have ever seen on these forums. Lets get something straight, 1. The 6850 and 6870 just release so all of them are going to be using the reference PCB's, if you dont know what that means then either get off these forums or google it. 2. Multiple sources have already shown that 6850 and 6870 easily OC past 900Mhz and can easily obtain an additional 10% gain in performance. 3. The 6870 at stock settings still beats the GTX 460 1GB OC at resolutions you would need a new generation card to play at. Who cares how a 6850 compares to a GTX460 at 1680x1050 or lower resolutions? Nobody....freesafety13

+1

So why are we comparing an OCed card to a non-OCed one again?

Oh that's right. Because the former wasn't good enough.

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]

It's just one game, talk overall.

The only important thing to note here is that an oced 6850 is not beating 6870 whereas the GTX 460 does...

Anandtech is down right now, check out their review later, they found out oced GTX 460 to be 5% faster on "average" than a stock 6870.

kaitanuvax

You've showed me one game, so I did the same. I don't see how yours is more credible.

And I don't get where you're saying that a GTX 460 beats a 6870 when it doesn't even beat a GTX 470 (and we both see how the 6850 OC left the 470 in the dust in my benchmark).

Infact toms hardware used a different game to see the OC potential and it still lags the GTX 460.

[QUOTE="C_Rule"]

[QUOTE="kaitanuvax"]

Hi, the HD 6850 can overclock too?

kaitanuvax

Unless we know them, that graph is invalid.

ASUS HD 6850: 900mhz core

XFX HD 6850: 925mhz core

GTX 460 OC: 800 mhz core

Lets just give it some time before we get too excited.

So why are we comparing an OCed card to a non-OCed one again?

Oh that's right. Because the former wasn't good enough.

kaitanuvax

I thought we were comparing what you can buy more then OC vs Non OC. GTX 460's have out in stores and onlinve vendors gtx 460's that standard clocks are much higher then the ref design of the card. I do want to see a maxed out overclock vs maxed out overclock but from whatIi've read in last few days, 6850 beats a standard gtx 460 768mb, 6870 beats a gtx 460 1gb, gtx 460 768 SC edition (ones you can buy outright factory oced) beats a 6850 and the GTX 460 1gig SC or FTW ediions beats a 6870.

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]

[QUOTE="kaitanuvax"]

It's called buying a better card? Not messing with your current one?

You only do that when it gets outdated. Not when it still plays games great.

freesafety13

The oced 460 is 13% faster in the most demanding game out there. Now happy? Wait lets get some more..

Not getting excited at all. Just finding it ridiculous that people are finding that a card is all jacked up now because once OCed (emphases on OCED) it can beat a stock card (emphases on STOCK).

I have shown you one game for checking OC potential NOT which card is the faster one.:|Stop trolling man just stop.

Infact toms hardware used a different game to see the OC potential and it still lags the GTX 460.

Gambler_3

And I have shown you a counterexample. Exactly how is that trolling? (I used the GTX 470 as a GTX 4601GB OC replacement, shoot me. As if the latter is ever faster than the former anyways)

[QUOTE="kaitanuvax"]

So why are we comparing an OCed card to a non-OCed one again?

Oh that's right. Because the former wasn't good enough.

jedikevin2

I thought we were comparing what you can buy more then OC vs Non OC. GTX 460's have out in stores and onlinve vendors gtx 460's that standard clocks are much higher then the ref design of the card. I do want to see a MAXed out overclock vs maxed out overclock but from what i've read in last few days, 6850 beats a standard gtx 460 768mb, 6870 beats a gtx 460 1gb, gtx 460768 SC edition (ones you can buy outright factory oced) beats a 6850 and the GTX 460 1gig SC or FTW ediions beats a 6870.

.

Gambler_3

I told you I can keep playing this game.

Not getting excited at all. Just finding it ridiculous that people are finding that a card is all jacked up now because once OCed (emphases on OCED) it can beat a stock card (emphases on STOCK).

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]

I have shown you one game for checking OC potential NOT which card is the faster one.:|Stop trolling man just stop.

Infact toms hardware used a different game to see the OC potential and it still lags the GTX 460.

kaitanuvax

And I have shown you a counterexample. Exactly how is that trolling? (I used the GTX 470 as a GTX 4601GB OC replacement, shoot me. As if the latter is ever faster than the former anyways)

We know oced 6850 aint beating 6870 so here we go

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]

.

kaitanuvax

I told you I can keep playing this game.

Get back to me once you have a 30" monitor.:lol:

The only way to settle this is to do an overall average throughout all resolutions. Anandtech did it and declared oced 460 as 5% faster than stock 6870. See it once their site is back up, it's useless to cherry pick individual scenarios....

Are you really trying to argue that an oced 6850 can beat oced 460 by giving one example? Well I mean try 6870 you might have a fight but with defending 6850 you will only embarass yourself.

Gambler_3

No. I'm giving you an example for every example you are giving me.

So now you are going to resort to 25x16??:roll:

Get back to me once you have a 30" monitor.:lol:

Gambler_3

This guy...

Sigh.

The only way to settle this is to do an overall average throughout all resolutions. Anandtech did it and declared oced 460 as 5% faster than stock 6870. See it once their site is back up, it's useless to cherry pick individual scenarios....

Gambler_3

Gladly.

First of all, we all know that a GTX 4601GB OCed never beats a GTX 470 right? Well, here you go:

Don't see how it "easily" beats a 6870 then.

Oh btw...here's a reason why you should get a 6850 instead of a GTX 4601GB:

HD 6850 CF = 10% faster than GTX 460 1GB SLI.

Did I mention the card's just released too? That means the drivers are still young and have room for MUCH improvement.

Cherrypicking pics from different websites will getcha in the end nowhere on either side. Add to that that certain games run better on AMD and others on Nvidia cards (from all the reviews I've read).

Cherrypicking pics from different websites will getcha in the end nowhere on either side. jedikevin2

That was the point I was trying to get at. If there's a counterexample for every example, it must mean a 6850 = GTX 460 1GB - except this guy is trying desperately (and unsuccessfully) to make it seem like it's not.

Although you might disagree with that claim because of the techpowerup relative performance charts I posted, those are very large amounts of testing compiled and calculated into one chart.

460 OC is blatantly better than 6850 OC; In some cases it's better than 6870 OC. ;)

460 OC is blatantly better than 6850 OC; In some cases it's better than 6870 OC. ;)

NerubianWeaver

You need to start reading posts before you post.

Cherrypicking pics from different websites will getcha in the end nowhere on either side. Add to that that certain games run better on AMD and others on Nvidia cards (from all the reviews I've read).

jedikevin2

Gladly.

First of all, we all know that a GTX 4601GB OCed never beats a GTX 470 right? Well, here you go:

kaitanuvax

On what OC?

A a 460 with a decent overclock can get pretty close if not match a 470.

Getting all these graphs from different sites is useless, we don't know if "GTX 460 OC" is 700MHz or 900MHz.

Until someone actually gets these cards and overclocks as high as they can go, all this back and forth with graphs is a waste of time.

Well you do have all the debacle with techpowerup getting those different cards then what you could buy, (something with 200 extra shaders on their model). In the end, from everything I saw, A 6850 = gtx 460 768mb SC and a 6870 = a gtx 460 1gb SC. Thats not to say some games run better on piece of hardware then the other. Its best in all arguments to just recognize everything is even hardware base and go look to price for anything you want. Thats my call on all of this. No winner, no loser, just great awesome for us all.

[QUOTE="NerubianWeaver"]

460 OC is blatantly better than 6850 OC; In some cases it's better than 6870 OC. ;)

kaitanuvax

You need to start reading posts before you post.

Cherrypicking pics from different websites will getcha in the end nowhere on either side. Add to that that certain games run better on AMD and others on Nvidia cards (from all the reviews I've read).

jedikevin2

I would like to quote these statements from that website.

"For easier referencing, we have overclocked the GeForce GTX 460 1GB to a speed of 800MHz core, 1600MHz shader and 2000MHz (4000MHz effective). You would be able to find a couple of factory-overclocked GeForce GTX 460 cards in retail operating at roughly these frequencies."

"Point to note, our AMD Radeon HD 6870 and AMD Radeon HD 6850 samples have been pushed to the highest frequencies possible. Factory-overclocked versions (if there will be) that spring up later on are unlikely to be clocked this high. Furthermore, the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 460 1GB still has headroom to reach about 850MHz core and 2200MHz memory."

The benchmarks that I've posted shows that 460 is OC at 800/1600/2000. While the 680XX series was overclocked at their highest clock possible. And the 460 triumphs them. What more if you OC the 460 at 850MHz core and 2200MHz memory. I think we know which card is superior here ;)

Well its not a flop but its a little disappointing since they had basically a whole year to make something that will blow the midrange away. I'd still get the 460 even though the 6870 seems like an awesome buy. Overclocking is always the cure to a wrong purchase

The thing is though the 6850 is cheaper than the GTX 460. 6850 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102908&cm_re=6850-_-14-102-908-_-Product GTX 460 1gb http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102908&cm_re=6850-_-14-102-908-_-Product

It would make sense that the 6850 preforms a little worse then the more expensive GTX 460 1gb. Considering it is priced to compete with the GTX 460 768mb it is competitive. Let's not forget it also consumes less power too.

Ravenguard90 in another thread posted a GREAT review which has the 6850, 6870 and nvidia gtx 460 ftw edition with maxxed overclocks. Def worth a read but gonna warn you, there pictures are hard to decipher due to so many cards and colors chosen.

Couple observations:

• OMG 6870 goes to 1000 core clock.
• 6870 and gtx 460 1gb overclocks = same performance ( Batman AA, Farcry 2, MW2 for 460 and Just Cause 2, Res Evil 5, Crysis for 6870)
• All of them overclocked to max use about the same amount of wattage.
• GTX 460 when maxxed overclock uses less wattage on idle but more wattage on max load compared to 6870.
• GTX 460 idles lower on temperature but all of them have the same amount of heat when on load while overclocked.
• They didn't compare the GTS 460 768mb with max overclock anywhere in the review.

Here you go guys, Overclockerclub Review of the 6850, 6870, gtx 460 with Maxxed overclocks

The benchmarks that I've posted shows that 460 is OC at 800/1600/2000. While the 680XX series was overclocked at their highest clock possible. And the 460 triumphs them. What more if you OC the 460 at 850MHz core and 2200MHz memory. I think we know which card is superior here ;)

NerubianWeaver

You missed my point completely. You've posted benchmarks where the game obviously favors the green team. If you've paid attention earlier, you've noticed I've done the reverse.

That's why I love techpowerup so much. With their relative performance charts we can instantly see which card is better without throwing useless, random one game / one resolution benchmarks at each other all day.

[QUOTE="kaitanuvax"]

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]

See what can be achieved by critical thourough analysis of the situation? I see the GTX 460 owners arent being fanboys when they say it's a monster overclocker....

Gambler_3

This is very ironic...taken from the very same page:

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/HIS/Radeon_HD_6850/31.html

"The overclocks of our card are 820 MHz core (6% overclock) and 1115 MHz Memory (12% overclock). Compared to other HD 6800 cards we tested today, this overclock look extremely weak. All our other cards easily managed far above 900 MHz. One possible reason is that the GPU installed on the HIS HD 6850 is an Engineering Sample."

Proof:

http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-6850-6870-review/21

"Voltage tweaking is not yet an option."

Here toms hardware, overclocked 6850 still loses to the GTX 460 OC. Voltage tweaking is an advanced feature which isnt applied to oced 460's either....

:roll:

The DIRECT competitor to the HD6850 is a gtx460 768mb, theres no question witch of thoose is faster, the HD6850 even being a bit cheeper while it's the faster card.

HD6870 even tops the GTX470 in many games, the DIRECT competitor as in GTX460 1GB has no chance, even the OC'ed ones isn't competitive.

The Dié on the bart's XT (HD6870) is half the size of the slower GTX460, it takes much less power and has a more silent cooler, and a very big plus is that they have outstanding CF capabilety they scale almost 1+1, Crossfire HD6870 beats SLI GTX470 from time to time and even best SLI gtx480 in cuple benchmarks while they only use less than half the power.

Ahh, yeah theese cards are a bunch of crap, not worth the effort to even read the benchmarks before we start to call them a "flop"!

[QUOTE="kaitanuvax"]

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]

See what can be achieved by critical thourough analysis of the situation? I see the GTX 460 owners arent being fanboys when they say it's a monster overclocker....

This is very ironic...taken from the very same page:

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/HIS/Radeon_HD_6850/31.html

"The overclocks of our card are 820 MHz core (6% overclock) and 1115 MHz Memory (12% overclock). Compared to other HD 6800 cards we tested today, this overclock look extremely weak. All our other cards easily managed far above 900 MHz. One possible reason is that the GPU installed on the HIS HD 6850 is an Engineering Sample."

Proof:

http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-6850-6870-review/21

"Voltage tweaking is not yet an option."

Here toms hardware, overclocked 6850 still loses to the GTX 460 OC. Voltage tweaking is an advanced feature which isnt applied to oced 460's either....

There isn't a huge difference between them; just get which ever is cheaper.