For those on the fence about SimCity, you can get it for $32.

This topic is locked from further discussion.

Avatar image for Squeets
Squeets

8185

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#1 Squeets
Member since 2006 • 8185 Posts

Gamefly has the game for $20 off right now and the code "GFDAPR20" gives an additional $8 off.

LINK

inb4 hate.

Avatar image for kozzy1234
kozzy1234

35966

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 86

User Lists: 0

#2 kozzy1234
Member since 2005 • 35966 Posts

Got it for $32 week after it came out :)

Wanted to try it first, was money well spent, ive had more fun on it then I did with the latest Tomb Raider or latest RE.

Avatar image for Chris_53
Chris_53

5513

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 33

User Lists: 0

#3 Chris_53
Member since 2004 • 5513 Posts
Not worth it, play SimCity 4 instead.
Avatar image for lostrib
lostrib

49999

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#4 lostrib
Member since 2009 • 49999 Posts

Does the game actually work?

Avatar image for DanielDust
DanielDust

15402

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#5 DanielDust
Member since 2007 • 15402 Posts

Does the game actually work?

lostrib
No, you buy the game to look at the nice cover in Origin...
Avatar image for lostrib
lostrib

49999

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#6 lostrib
Member since 2009 • 49999 Posts

[QUOTE="lostrib"]

Does the game actually work?

DanielDust

No, you buy the game to look at the nice cover in Origin...

It is pretty! wow, $32 seems so cheap now

Avatar image for Chris_53
Chris_53

5513

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 33

User Lists: 0

#7 Chris_53
Member since 2004 • 5513 Posts
[QUOTE="lostrib"]

Does the game actually work?

DanielDust
No, you buy the game to look at the nice cover in Origin...

Pretty much this!
Avatar image for Squeets
Squeets

8185

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#8 Squeets
Member since 2006 • 8185 Posts

Does the game actually work?

lostrib

Yes, though how well is subject to opinion.  It works fine for me and I enjoy it, but there are others on here who act as though this game marks the rise of the antichrist or something.

Avatar image for chrisrooR
chrisrooR

9027

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#9 chrisrooR
Member since 2007 • 9027 Posts

[QUOTE="lostrib"]

Does the game actually work?

Squeets

Yes, though how well is subject to opinion.  It works fine for me and I enjoy it, but there are others on here who act as though this game marks the rise of the antichrist or something.

It works in a superficial way. Sometimes. But underneath the 'pretty' there's a ton of design bugs that really waste whatever potential the game did have.
Avatar image for lostrib
lostrib

49999

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#10 lostrib
Member since 2009 • 49999 Posts

[QUOTE="Squeets"]

[QUOTE="lostrib"]

Does the game actually work?

chrisrooR

Yes, though how well is subject to opinion.  It works fine for me and I enjoy it, but there are others on here who act as though this game marks the rise of the antichrist or something.

It works in a superficial way. Sometimes. But underneath the 'pretty' there's a ton of design bugs that really waste whatever potential the game did have.

Yeah, heard a lot of bad things about the AI

Avatar image for bagelrj
bagelrj

25

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#11 bagelrj
Member since 2013 • 25 Posts
[QUOTE="Squeets"]

[QUOTE="lostrib"]

Does the game actually work?

chrisrooR

Yes, though how well is subject to opinion.  It works fine for me and I enjoy it, but there are others on here who act as though this game marks the rise of the antichrist or something.

It works in a superficial way. Sometimes. But underneath the 'pretty' there's a ton of design bugs that really waste whatever potential the game did have.

The game works very well, there are almost no bugs. Do u have the game or do u just listen to what other people say?
Avatar image for chrisrooR
chrisrooR

9027

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#12 chrisrooR
Member since 2007 • 9027 Posts
[QUOTE="chrisrooR"][QUOTE="Squeets"]

Yes, though how well is subject to opinion.  It works fine for me and I enjoy it, but there are others on here who act as though this game marks the rise of the antichrist or something.

bagelrj
It works in a superficial way. Sometimes. But underneath the 'pretty' there's a ton of design bugs that really waste whatever potential the game did have.

The game works very well, there are almost no bugs. Do u have the game or do u just listen to what other people say?

:lol: I was just playing it. And there was a bug with the resource sharing that's still there, amongst other many graphical glitches. To proclaim the game has "almost no bugs" is just flat out stupid.
Avatar image for FelipeInside
FelipeInside

28548

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#13 FelipeInside
Member since 2003 • 28548 Posts

I will never understand why people choose to give their money to companies that are basically abusing their consumer rights.

Lost-to-Apathy

"abusing consumer rights"???

Please do enlighten us.

Avatar image for IxX3xil3d0n3XxI
IxX3xil3d0n3XxI

1508

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 18

User Lists: 0

#14 IxX3xil3d0n3XxI
Member since 2006 • 1508 Posts
$32 is about $31 too high for this game.
Avatar image for Lost-to-Apathy
Lost-to-Apathy

459

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 5

#15 Lost-to-Apathy
Member since 2012 • 459 Posts

I will never understand why people choose to give their money to companies that are basically abusing their consumer rights.

Avatar image for -wildflower-
-wildflower-

2997

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#16 -wildflower-
Member since 2003 • 2997 Posts

I will never understand why people choose to give their money to companies that are basically abusing their consumer rights.

Lost-to-Apathy

Especially for something as non-essential as a game.

Avatar image for chrisrooR
chrisrooR

9027

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#17 chrisrooR
Member since 2007 • 9027 Posts

I will never understand why people choose to give their money to companies that are basically abusing their consumer rights.

Lost-to-Apathy
This was the last straw for me. I think for some people, at least I can speak for myself, I get especially susceptible to hype for titles that I have a history with. I've been playing the Simcity franchise for over a decade now, and I guess I trusted them to know enough to not mess it up. Same thing happened to me with Hitman Absolution and Diablo 3. I don't understand why developers feel the need to fix what isn't broken. These games are legendary for a reason; there's no need to go seriously screwing with game mechanics. Just bring them gracefully into the 21st century with stellar graphics, improved physics and various tweaks to some features and the game's golden! There's no need to reinvent the wheel. This was the last straw for me, and I plan on being extremely careful with my game choices in the future. I've been let down too many times in the last year.
Avatar image for FelipeInside
FelipeInside

28548

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#18 FelipeInside
Member since 2003 • 28548 Posts
[QUOTE="Lost-to-Apathy"]

I will never understand why people choose to give their money to companies that are basically abusing their consumer rights.

chrisrooR
This was the last straw for me. I think for some people, at least I can speak for myself, I get especially susceptible to hype for titles that I have a history with. I've been playing the Simcity franchise for over a decade now, and I guess I trusted them to know enough to not mess it up. Same thing happened to me with Hitman Absolution and Diablo 3. I don't understand why developers feel the need to fix what isn't broken. These games are legendary for a reason; there's no need to go seriously screwing with game mechanics. Just bring them gracefully into the 21st century with stellar graphics, improved physics and various tweaks to some features and the game's golden! There's no need to reinvent the wheel. This was the last straw for me, and I plan on being extremely careful with my game choices in the future. I've been let down too many times in the last year.

It's a tricky one for developers chrisrooR. On one side you can keep the game roughly the same and then you get complaints that nothing has changed and it's an expansion instead of a sequel (StarCraft 2) OR You want to try something new and you get complaints that it has ruined the series. It's not easy either way.
Avatar image for Baranga
Baranga

14217

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#19 Baranga
Member since 2005 • 14217 Posts

Why would you play this instead of Tropico 4?

Avatar image for Rattlesnake_8
Rattlesnake_8

18452

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 31

User Lists: 0

#20 Rattlesnake_8
Member since 2004 • 18452 Posts
Not worth it, play SimCity 4 instead. Chris_53
Avatar image for chrisrooR
chrisrooR

9027

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#21 chrisrooR
Member since 2007 • 9027 Posts
[QUOTE="chrisrooR"][QUOTE="Lost-to-Apathy"]

I will never understand why people choose to give their money to companies that are basically abusing their consumer rights.

FelipeInside
This was the last straw for me. I think for some people, at least I can speak for myself, I get especially susceptible to hype for titles that I have a history with. I've been playing the Simcity franchise for over a decade now, and I guess I trusted them to know enough to not mess it up. Same thing happened to me with Hitman Absolution and Diablo 3. I don't understand why developers feel the need to fix what isn't broken. These games are legendary for a reason; there's no need to go seriously screwing with game mechanics. Just bring them gracefully into the 21st century with stellar graphics, improved physics and various tweaks to some features and the game's golden! There's no need to reinvent the wheel. This was the last straw for me, and I plan on being extremely careful with my game choices in the future. I've been let down too many times in the last year.

It's a tricky one for developers chrisrooR. On one side you can keep the game roughly the same and then you get complaints that nothing has changed and it's an expansion instead of a sequel (StarCraft 2) OR You want to try something new and you get complaints that it has ruined the series. It's not easy either way.

I suppose there's some happy medium. Personally, I thought SC2 was a great update to the series. It didn't change much, but it tweaked a few areas that needed it and brought the game graphically into the 21st century. I would rather a company stick with what originally made the game a success than trying to do something completely new. I think whenever people read "Simcity", they're ultimately going to compare and relate it to the other games in the series. And by comparison, this new game is terrible. It downsizes many areas of Simcity that really should have been expanded or kept (terraforming and larger map sizes to name a couple things). Another example of this is Diablo 3. Blizzard went in an entirely new direction with the series, and it turned out (IMO) to take a turn for the worse. They took design features from the first and second Diablos out of the game that should have been givens, and replaced them with casual call-of-dutyified action with very shallow RPG elements. For the fans of the series, I really hope the new Thief doesn't follow suite in the same way as these others have. It's just a trend I've noticed.
Avatar image for bonafidetk
bonafidetk

3911

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#22 bonafidetk
Member since 2004 • 3911 Posts
Is the sim AI still terrible? I might pick it up for $32 if its been fixed.
Avatar image for Sleepyz
Sleepyz

3805

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#23 Sleepyz
Member since 2003 • 3805 Posts

Why would you play this instead of Tropico 4?

Baranga
That's what i was thinking. I'll probably try Simcity out of curiousty when i see it for like 10 bucks.
Avatar image for Wasdie
Wasdie

53622

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 23

User Lists: 0

#24 Wasdie  Moderator
Member since 2003 • 53622 Posts

Still way too much. I'll pay no less than $10 to try this game. 

I'm not trying to be a douche about it, but considering everything that has happened with Sim City and EA's continued insistence that the always online is not DRM (it totally is), makes me not want to give them much money. I do want to try the game. I hear it can be a lot of fun.

If you think EA abuses customers clearly you've never a homeowner who was a customer of a bank over the past decade. THAT's abuse. EA can be annoying, but do not ever think they are in the same league as other companies in this nation who do absue the crap out of their customers and don't care. Hell our government even gives them money after they force hundreds of thousands out of their house and lose all of their money. EA at least gave free games away. 

Avatar image for Miroku32
Miroku32

8666

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 43

User Lists: 0

#25 Miroku32
Member since 2006 • 8666 Posts
Gonna wait when this game drops to $5 or less.
Avatar image for Lucianu
Lucianu

10347

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 6

User Lists: 0

#26 Lucianu
Member since 2007 • 10347 Posts

I've heard countless opinions about this game.. 

The thing is, the game itself is really good. It's a bit simplified from Sim City 4, but it is a great game. The problem is that it's ridiculously hindered by the fact that it's completely online and that online is not that reliable. 

Avatar image for Justforvisit
Justforvisit

2660

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#27 Justforvisit
Member since 2011 • 2660 Posts

I wouldn't even take it if they GAVE my $32 ALONG WITH IT!

Avatar image for Chris_53
Chris_53

5513

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 33

User Lists: 0

#28 Chris_53
Member since 2004 • 5513 Posts
Gonna wait when this game drops to $5 or less. Miroku32
You can probably get SimCity 4 for just a little more than that. Its a much better game overall
Avatar image for Geminon
Geminon

1177

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#29 Geminon
Member since 2012 • 1177 Posts
still too much for a game that runs out of content after about 2 hours. once you set up your city... there is just no further reason to play.
Avatar image for Darth_Kane
Darth_Kane

2966

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#30 Darth_Kane
Member since 2006 • 2966 Posts

that's 32$ too much

Avatar image for bowlingotter
bowlingotter

6464

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 34

User Lists: 0

#31 bowlingotter
Member since 2005 • 6464 Posts

So this is the cool game to hate on these days, huh?

Sounds like recent patching has done a lot to improve things. I'm still in wait-and-see mode. This is the sort of game I might revisit a calendar year after it was released (or maybe over the holidays), when hopefully the majority of the bugs have been ironed out, and it'll be on a nice sale. Regardless, it's still a game that I certainly plan on playing.

$32 is a good deal for a recent release, but it's less about money for me and more about the functionality. Of course, the debacles around this release and Diabo III's were the nails in the coffin for never preordering a game from anyone again. I don't like to encourage that practice, "pre-order bonuses" be damned.

Avatar image for SKaREO
SKaREO

3161

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#32 SKaREO
Member since 2006 • 3161 Posts

So this is the cool game to hate on these days, huh?

bowlingotter
I stopped reading here because you have horrible reading comprehension. If all you got out of this was "cool game to hate on" then you're a moron.
Avatar image for SKaREO
SKaREO

3161

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#33 SKaREO
Member since 2006 • 3161 Posts

If you think EA abuses customers clearly you've never a homeowner who was a customer of a bank over the past decade. THAT's abuse.

Wasdie
Giving people money to buy homes is abuse? And when people don't repay their loans, it's the bank's fault right? Lol, idiot.
Avatar image for PurpleMan5000
PurpleMan5000

10531

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#34 PurpleMan5000
Member since 2011 • 10531 Posts

So this is the cool game to hate on these days, huh?

Sounds like recent patching has done a lot to improve things. I'm still in wait-and-see mode. This is the sort of game I might revisit a calendar year after it was released (or maybe over the holidays), when hopefully the majority of the bugs have been ironed out, and it'll be on a nice sale. Regardless, it's still a game that I certainly plan on playing.

$32 is a good deal for a recent release, but it's less about money for me and more about the functionality. Of course, the debacles around this release and Diabo III's were the nails in the coffin for never preordering a game from anyone again. I don't like to encourage that practice, "pre-order bonuses" be damned.

bowlingotter
The problem is that with the online emphasis on this game, there will be less people playing the game a year from now and you will have to just deal with abandoned cities, etc. or just ignore that part of the game altogether and trade with yourself in your own region. It's also hard to say how long EA will maintain server support for this game, and you effectively can no longer play the game at all once that goes away.
Avatar image for lostrib
lostrib

49999

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#35 lostrib
Member since 2009 • 49999 Posts

I wouldn't even take it if they GAVE my $32 ALONG WITH IT!

Justforvisit

well that's just silly

Avatar image for bowlingotter
bowlingotter

6464

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 34

User Lists: 0

#36 bowlingotter
Member since 2005 • 6464 Posts
[QUOTE="bowlingotter"]

So this is the cool game to hate on these days, huh?

SKaREO
I stopped reading here because you have horrible reading comprehension. If all you got out of this was "cool game to hate on" then you're a moron.

That's funny... As someone accusing me of poor reading comprehension, you'd think you wouldn't have kicked off your post with "I stopped reading." But of course, it's difficult to not be aware of all of the shortcomings of this game since its release. Anyone with a pulse wouldn't need this thread for that.
Avatar image for bowlingotter
bowlingotter

6464

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 34

User Lists: 0

#37 bowlingotter
Member since 2005 • 6464 Posts
[QUOTE="bowlingotter"]

So this is the cool game to hate on these days, huh?

Sounds like recent patching has done a lot to improve things. I'm still in wait-and-see mode. This is the sort of game I might revisit a calendar year after it was released (or maybe over the holidays), when hopefully the majority of the bugs have been ironed out, and it'll be on a nice sale. Regardless, it's still a game that I certainly plan on playing.

$32 is a good deal for a recent release, but it's less about money for me and more about the functionality. Of course, the debacles around this release and Diabo III's were the nails in the coffin for never preordering a game from anyone again. I don't like to encourage that practice, "pre-order bonuses" be damned.

PurpleMan5000
The problem is that with the online emphasis on this game, there will be less people playing the game a year from now and you will have to just deal with abandoned cities, etc. or just ignore that part of the game altogether and trade with yourself in your own region. It's also hard to say how long EA will maintain server support for this game, and you effectively can no longer play the game at all once that goes away.

Those are certainly issues to take into account. But when looking at playing habits for games such as these, I highly doubt that player population will be that much of an issue by the time the holidays roll around. And the population will need to die a rapid death for dropping server support to even enter into the conversation. An early shutdown for a game such as this would be 3-4 years, not months.
Avatar image for Squeets
Squeets

8185

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#38 Squeets
Member since 2006 • 8185 Posts

[QUOTE="PurpleMan5000"][QUOTE="bowlingotter"]

So this is the cool game to hate on these days, huh?

Sounds like recent patching has done a lot to improve things. I'm still in wait-and-see mode. This is the sort of game I might revisit a calendar year after it was released (or maybe over the holidays), when hopefully the majority of the bugs have been ironed out, and it'll be on a nice sale. Regardless, it's still a game that I certainly plan on playing.

$32 is a good deal for a recent release, but it's less about money for me and more about the functionality. Of course, the debacles around this release and Diabo III's were the nails in the coffin for never preordering a game from anyone again. I don't like to encourage that practice, "pre-order bonuses" be damned.

bowlingotter

The problem is that with the online emphasis on this game, there will be less people playing the game a year from now and you will have to just deal with abandoned cities, etc. or just ignore that part of the game altogether and trade with yourself in your own region. It's also hard to say how long EA will maintain server support for this game, and you effectively can no longer play the game at all once that goes away.

Those are certainly issues to take into account. But when looking at playing habits for games such as these, I highly doubt that player population will be that much of an issue by the time the holidays roll around. And the population will need to die a rapid death for dropping server support to even enter into the conversation. An early shutdown for a game such as this would be 3-4 years, not months.

Not to mention that players have already created no-internet patches... I highly doubt EA would restrict access to the game if they ever wished to close servers... They would release a server exclusion patch or something...

inb4 EAisevilandwanttokillallhumans

Avatar image for Justforvisit
Justforvisit

2660

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#39 Justforvisit
Member since 2011 • 2660 Posts

[QUOTE="Justforvisit"]

I wouldn't even take it if they GAVE my $32 ALONG WITH IT!

lostrib

well that's just silly



Well okay, you're right. I'd take the $32, but only under the condition I don't have to take this new Sim City.

Avatar image for Cyberdot
Cyberdot

3928

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#40 Cyberdot
Member since 2013 • 3928 Posts

Political-pictures-do-not-want-surprised.

Avatar image for lostrib
lostrib

49999

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#41 lostrib
Member since 2009 • 49999 Posts

game seems really broken:

Avatar image for skrat_01
skrat_01

33767

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#42 skrat_01
Member since 2007 • 33767 Posts
Considering the debacle, the online requirement and the developers outright lying over the course of their bad pre and post release PR, no thanks. It's just sad to see the IP fall this hard, and Maxis turn this sour. First there was those horrible spin off games (Streets of Sim City whoop), then Spore, now Sim City 2013.
Avatar image for bowlingotter
bowlingotter

6464

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 34

User Lists: 0

#43 bowlingotter
Member since 2005 • 6464 Posts
[QUOTE="skrat_01"]Considering the debacle, the online requirement and the developers outright lying over the course of their bad pre and post release PR, no thanks. It's just sad to see the IP fall this hard, and Maxis turn this sour. First there was those horrible spin off games (Streets of Sim City whoop), then Spore, now Sim City 2013.

When you lay out the big picture like that, wow, I hadn't realize how far Maxis had fallen.
Avatar image for deactivated-60f7582dcaa79
deactivated-60f7582dcaa79

510

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#44 deactivated-60f7582dcaa79
Member since 2004 • 510 Posts
[QUOTE="Lost-to-Apathy"]

I will never understand why people choose to give their money to companies that are basically abusing their consumer rights.

chrisrooR
There's no need to reinvent the wheel. This was the last straw for me, and I plan on being extremely careful with my game choices in the future. I've been let down too many times in the last year.

Right on. I'm right there with you. I've passed up on a lot of titles I would of otherwise bought recently due to a bit of hesitation on my part because of how badly I've been let down on some of the recent "AAA's" I've bought.
Avatar image for skrat_01
skrat_01

33767

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#45 skrat_01
Member since 2007 • 33767 Posts
[QUOTE="bowlingotter"][QUOTE="skrat_01"]Considering the debacle, the online requirement and the developers outright lying over the course of their bad pre and post release PR, no thanks. It's just sad to see the IP fall this hard, and Maxis turn this sour. First there was those horrible spin off games (Streets of Sim City whoop), then Spore, now Sim City 2013.

When you lay out the big picture like that, wow, I hadn't realize how far Maxis had fallen.

It's not great. I mean in all fairness during that time they did put out The Sims and the sequels (the first was huge, the sequels are all good), and Sim City 4. But yeah, those terrible spinoffs, Sim City Societies, The great Spore disaster, the massive focus on the Sims DLC/expansion cash cow and now the chapter of the new great Sim City 5 debacle, and Will Wright's departure a few years ago. Sigh, it's a mess.