Jennifer Hepler, the Fake Controversy (Bioware and Mass Effect related)

I just think it's hilarious that Reddit got blamed for the whole thing when she's been getting ripped apart on 4 chan for like a year now.

I just think it's hilarious that Reddit got blamed for the whole thing when she's been getting ripped apart on 4 chan for like a year now.

xLittlekillx

Yeah, but Reddit brought it to the surface and made the hatred more known.

I like how she thinks stephanie meyer has a wide range of appeal.

The problem is about 80% of consumption is female, so she thinks that making something male more feminine will make girls like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QLz0CqtMVc It's a very good video until the last 10 seconds where it goes off on a relentless attack.Kell_the_Gamer

Yes, the last 10 seconds were idiotic and completely unnecessary, other than that, he pretty much describes everything I've disliked about Bioware since KotoR.

~ You probably should have mentioned Bioware in the title. I doubt many people (especially here) have any clue about the "controversy" or who Jennifer Helper is. ~

[QUOTE="xLittlekillx"]

I just think it's hilarious that Reddit got blamed for the whole thing when she's been getting ripped apart on 4 chan for like a year now.

The_Capitalist

Yeah, but Reddit brought it to the surface and made the hatred more known.

You know why it's called reddit? Because you already reddit on 4 chan.

what is this about?

I just think it's hilarious that Reddit got blamed for the whole thing when she's been getting ripped apart on 4 chan for like a year now.

xLittlekillx

[QUOTE="xLittlekillx"]

I just think it's hilarious that Reddit got blamed for the whole thing when she's been getting ripped apart on 4 chan for like a year now.

ampiva

[QUOTE="ampiva"][QUOTE="xLittlekillx"]

I just think it's hilarious that Reddit got blamed for the whole thing when she's been getting ripped apart on 4 chan for like a year now.

Kell_the_Gamer

Its not a very good video at all. Its just another disgruntled Bioware fan who thinks that he can justify ripping this woman apart because he doesn't approve of the games. He doesn't mention the fact that people called her up at home to abuse her. He calls it satire. I'd like to see how he'd deal with it. This sort of nonsense and the way that gamers have tried to justify being so awful has really distanced me from the community. Who wants to listen to it anymore? Misogynist pigs who think they're somehow entitled to say and do whatever they like. They're just video games remember?

this vid is crap.

also funnily inaccurate since the gay romance in me3 is not even bisexual and Hepler didn't write Merrill.

Its not a very good video at all. Its just another disgruntled Bioware fan who thinks that he can justify ripping this woman apart because he doesn't approve of the games. He doesn't mention the fact that people called her up at home to abuse her. He calls it satire. I'd like to see how he'd deal with it. This sort of nonsense and the way that gamers have tried to justify being so awful has really distanced me from the community. Who wants to listen to it anymore?

biggest_loser

I agree with you biggest_loser. I'm just going to put it on the fact that a lot of this might come from American players, message boards, outlets, whatever. Don't got nothing against Americans of course but their video game discussions are getting a bit too... 'political' for me. I don't know.

Don't remember it being quite as whiny a few years back...

Patriachy! PATRIARCHY!

COMMON WOMYN LETS GET THESE MISOGYNISTS

Also a wise man once called reddit a bunch of tryhards.

Do people honestly care about any of this ? GeneralShowzer

I care about her being a terrible writer that dislikes and doesn't understand the medium she's working in. She's responsible for the Deep Roads in both DA games and for the horrible retconned Anders of DA2. I don't know what she wrote for TORtanic but I got the impression the story of that game is terrible too.

Speaking of TOR, enjoy this pic:

[QUOTE="GeneralShowzer"]Do people honestly care about any of this ? Baranga

I care about her being a terrible writer that dislikes and doesn't understand the medium she's working in. She's responsible for the Deep Roads in both DA games and for the horrible retconned Anders of DA2. I don't know what she wrote for TORtanic but I got the impression the story of that game is terrible too.

Speaking of TOR, enjoy this pic:

The Deep Roads' problems lie in game design, not writing. You don't understand how the medium works. How does the writing team's skill even relate to an issue that revolves around extended grinding levels? The actual writing for the Anvil of the Void questline has been praised.

Also I like how you posted a picture of Richard Garriot as if to make him seem more relevant or actively successful in the industry than that other guy.

[QUOTE="GeneralShowzer"]Do people honestly care about any of this ? Baranga

I care about her being a terrible writer that dislikes and doesn't understand the medium she's working in. She's responsible for the Deep Roads in both DA games and for the horrible retconned Anders of DA2. I don't know what she wrote for TORtanic but I got the impression the story of that game is terrible too.

Speaking of TOR, enjoy this pic:

[QUOTE="Baranga"]

I care about her being a terrible writer that dislikes and doesn't understand the medium she's working in. She's responsible for the Deep Roads in both DA games and for the horrible retconned Anders of DA2. I don't know what she wrote for TORtanic but I got the impression the story of that game is terrible too.

Speaking of TOR, enjoy this pic:

Jabby250

The Deep Roads' problems lie in game design, not writing. You don't understand how the medium works. How does the writing team's skill even relate to an issue that revolves around extended grinding levels? The actual writing for the Anvil of the Void questline has been praised.

Also I like how you posted a picture of Richard Garriot as if to make him seem more relevant or actively successful in the industry than that other guy.

I wasn't making a comment on the game design of the Deep Roads.

Understanding and (in the entertainment industry) enjoying the medium you're working in really matters! It's simple: interactive storytelling is very different from non-interactive storytelling. Cooperation between the designer and the writer is very important, but when one of the parties doesn't like or care about the other's work, then it goes nowhere. I mean, look at Richard Morgan: amazing writer, but didn't work with Crytek and Crysis 2 was a narrative trainwreck.

All post-KOTOR Bioware games feel like the writers and the designers work separately doing their own thing and then mashing them together in the final products. There's a bigger separation between the story bits and the actual gameplay bits with every new game... And when you have writers like Hepler, who openly admits she doesn't like playing games, or Mac Walters who admitted to following tired tropes just because they're safe, what you end up with is a pretty bad overall experience. This is something David Jaffe talked about in his DICE session.

Now regarding the picture:

Garriot's current career doesn't matter. You don't lose a record if nobody breaks it... The dude's achievements are bigger than what Bioware achieved in their entire history. I guess that's what you get when your lead writer and designer is a hotel manager. Anyway I posted the pic just because I thought it was funny. Also the Bioware dude's name is William Wallace, which makes it even funnier.

You complain about her being a terrible writer, which I don't think she is personally, but then you praise Alan Wake for having supposedly intentional bad writing?

biggest_loser

Yes. Do you complain about Black Dynamite being full of blaxploitation cliches? They're both celebrating what makes their source of inspiration fun in the first place. I found Max Payne just as hilarious anyway, that's Sam Lake's talent I guess. I never understood how people were able to take it seriously...

I feel this is somehow relevant to this discussion.

Money says if she was attractive she would get little to no hate. or at least a lot less.

The alledged quotes are stupid as hell though. What person says they think games should have an option to skip gameplay in video games? it... it doesn't make sense. go watch a movie or read a book if you don't want to experience the game, All that would be left is dialogue decisions, yay interactive movie? I think supporting either extreme is stupid though: At least try to make fun gameplay and an interesting story. But if i had to choose, gameplay would be the only sensible winner.

what is this about?

jakes456

Well it made a huge change on the BioWare forum...say anything bad about them, you're banned. Not sure if your games are affected.

People are taking this crap entirely too seriously.. Bioware is not the only developer on Earth.. If people don't like the games then don't buy them, is it that hard? Do people honestly have this much time on their hands for ranting on such a trivial thing.

Money says if she was attractive she would get little to no hate. or at least a lot less.

The alledged quotes are stupid as hell though. What person says they think games should have an option to skip gameplay in video games? it... it doesn't make sense. go watch a movie or read a book if you don't want to experience the game, All that would be left is dialogue decisions, yay interactive movie? I think supporting either extreme is stupid though: At least try to make fun gameplay and an interesting story. But if i had to choose, gameplay would be the only sensible winner.

Grimlim

This^

You want to just have an interactive story? Then play Heavy Rain. Just the idea of taking over game play to a video game sounds stupid. Seriously if you just want a story then read a book or watch a movie. Its wrong she got all the hate she did but when you say things like "to appeal to more women games should take out game play" of coarse people are going to get mad. Why should our medium have to change just because some people don't like it? You don't see chick flicks adding gun fight scenes to appeal to more men. That would be like me going to a club owner and saying "I want you to play j pop and victoria justice songs in your club, if not then myself and my friends will not come" and the club owner saying "you know the regulars will be here no matter what, so Ill play j pop and victoria justice to make todd and his friends come and spend their money" not the best example but I beleive it serves its purpose. Honestly though from the women I have played games with who are normally the type of women who don't play games except for at a party, guy friends house, etc seem to enjoy game play but nothing that is too complicated. My friends sister loves playing new super mario brothers wii,little big planet, and the ratchet and clank games. If you want to attract more women to play games then makes like that.

I dunno todd, did you see Date Night, with Steve Carell and Tina Fey? Pretty much a chick flick, with random, tacked on, action and violence, clearly to appeal to more men. And it worked. I thought it was a halfway decent movie.

I dunno todd, did you see Date Night, with Steve Carell and Tina Fey? Pretty much a chick flick, with random, tacked on, action and violence, clearly to appeal to more men. And it worked. I thought it was a halfway decent movie.

the_bi99man

I watched the video. I still have no clue what the core issue of it was..K4ss3r

[QUOTE="K4ss3r"]I watched the video. I still have no clue what the core issue of it was..skrat_01

Cliffy B says stupid things just like her and gets about the same amount of hate.

Misogyny is just a scapegoat.

"Oh they don't like her and she's an ugly girl? Misogynists!"

Cliffy B says stupid things just like her and gets about the same amount of hate.

Misogyny is just a scapegoat.

"Oh they don't like her and she's an ugly girl? Misogynists!"

GummiRaccoon

[QUOTE="Jabby250"]

[QUOTE="Baranga"]

I care about her being a terrible writer that dislikes and doesn't understand the medium she's working in. She's responsible for the Deep Roads in both DA games and for the horrible retconned Anders of DA2. I don't know what she wrote for TORtanic but I got the impression the story of that game is terrible too.

Speaking of TOR, enjoy this pic:

Baranga

The Deep Roads' problems lie in game design, not writing. You don't understand how the medium works. How does the writing team's skill even relate to an issue that revolves around extended grinding levels? The actual writing for the Anvil of the Void questline has been praised.

Also I like how you posted a picture of Richard Garriot as if to make him seem more relevant or actively successful in the industry than that other guy.

I wasn't making a comment on the game design of the Deep Roads.

Understanding and (in the entertainment industry) enjoying the medium you're working in really matters! It's simple: interactive storytelling is very different from non-interactive storytelling. Cooperation between the designer and the writer is very important, but when one of the parties doesn't like or care about the other's work, then it goes nowhere. I mean, look at Richard Morgan: amazing writer, but didn't work with Crytek and Crysis 2 was a narrative trainwreck.

All post-KOTOR Bioware games feel like the writers and the designers work separately doing their own thing and then mashing them together in the final products. There's a bigger separation between the story bits and the actual gameplay bits with every new game... And when you have writers like Hepler, who openly admits she doesn't like playing games, or Mac Walters who admitted to following tired tropes just because they're safe, what you end up with is a pretty bad overall experience. This is something David Jaffe talked about in his DICE session.

This is a horrible straw man. You assume writers like Jennifer Hepler who don't enjoy playing video games have a dislike for their job, collaborating with game designers, or seeing the results of their work first-hand. In all likelihood having knowledge of how the script translates into cinematic artistry is almost a must, especially at BioWare. Writers have to have some kind of idea as to how cinematic designers will work with the script.

It is usually not the writers that limit game designers, it's quite the opposite in fact. Writers have to perform according to game designers' limitations and specifications. If the Deep Roads were designed to be a long, arduous, grinding sequence then that's not one of the writers' fault. None of them are at fault for that, and you can't change a level that was specifically designed to extend the life of the game through repetitive sequences.

We agree that it's a collaborative effort that drives the storytelling behind video games but you seem to want to shift the blame on one party exclusively.

David Gaider on this matter:

I get the impression that many people think it's like a writer who makes a novel. The writer, in that case, is the driving creative force behind what the audience experiences-- they're essentially theonlyvoice, barring any kind of editorial work that has gone on behind the scenes.

The truth is that it's more like a screenwriter for a movie. Yes, we're often the people who write the dialogue and many times a given plot has its genesis with us-- but, like with a movie, there's far more hands that go into the actualstorythat you're experiencing. Cinematic designers (like John Epler), level designers and even artists are allstorytellersas much as we are. It would be nice if we could just write whatever we wanted, and the rest of the design team existed to implement that vision and only that, but that's not how it is. It's a collaborative effort.

This is not an attempt to shift blame for something you didn't like onto someone else, or detract from the successes our writing team has accomplished-- just a little reality check. The writing is the most obvious thing you notice, sure. Just realize that the entire package that you're enjoying has a lot more that went into it than just the work of one person. Even the writing on a specific plot or character often has had more than one person working on it.

So just be careful when you single something out and say "X is responsible for this". Good or bad, chances are that's not the entire story.

I hope you guys all realize how incredibly insulting it is to women to draw the conclusion that she is recieving all this hate "because she isn't attractive".

All this white knighting is just another form of chauvinism, implying that she isn't capable of handling herself.

In all the threads about Gabe Newell, who is generally well liked, there is always discussion about his extreme fatness and how every time someone makes fun of it HL3 gets delayed.

Stop being sexist morons. She sucks as a writer, and to top it off she doesn't even like games, of course this is going to irritate the community.

Women can be idiots too (like cliffy b) without it having anything to do with how attractive or unattractive she is.

I hope you guys all realize how incredibly insulting it is to women to draw the conclusion that she is recieving all this hate "because she isn't attractive".

All this white knighting is just another form of chauvinism, implying that she isn't capable of handling herself.

In all the threads about Gabe Newell, who is generally well liked, there is always discussion about his extreme fatness and how every time someone makes fun of it HL3 gets delayed.

Stop being sexist morons. She sucks as a writer, and to top it off she doesn't even like games, of course this is going to irritate the community.

Women can be idiots too (like cliffy b) without it having anything to do with how attractive or unattractive she is.

NailedGR

Very nicely said.

I've found in life (and on this board) that the holier-than-thou, sanctimonious types are typically the biggest hyporcrites.

I dunno todd, did you see Date Night, with Steve Carell and Tina Fey? Pretty much a chick flick, with random, tacked on, action and violence, clearly to appeal to more men. And it worked. I thought it was a halfway decent movie.

the_bi99man

Nope never seen it, not really a movie person except for zombie movies and movies based on comics. Its like with Sailor Moon, the anime was made to be more shonen then shojo to attract male viewers.

That whole controversy was disgusting. people needed to chill the **** out. I feel sorry for anybody who has the internet against them. Bioware did good backing her up.

That whole controversy was disgusting. people needed to chill the **** out. I feel sorry for anybody who has the internet against them. Bioware did good backing her up.

jettpack

The white knight is strong in this chauvinist.

[QUOTE="Baranga"]

[QUOTE="Jabby250"]

The Deep Roads' problems lie in game design, not writing. You don't understand how the medium works. How does the writing team's skill even relate to an issue that revolves around extended grinding levels? The actual writing for the Anvil of the Void questline has been praised.

Also I like how you posted a picture of Richard Garriot as if to make him seem more relevant or actively successful in the industry than that other guy.

Jabby250

I wasn't making a comment on the game design of the Deep Roads.

Understanding and (in the entertainment industry) enjoying the medium you're working in really matters! It's simple: interactive storytelling is very different from non-interactive storytelling. Cooperation between the designer and the writer is very important, but when one of the parties doesn't like or care about the other's work, then it goes nowhere. I mean, look at Richard Morgan: amazing writer, but didn't work with Crytek and Crysis 2 was a narrative trainwreck.

All post-KOTOR Bioware games feel like the writers and the designers work separately doing their own thing and then mashing them together in the final products. There's a bigger separation between the story bits and the actual gameplay bits with every new game... And when you have writers like Hepler, who openly admits she doesn't like playing games, or Mac Walters who admitted to following tired tropes just because they're safe, what you end up with is a pretty bad overall experience. This is something David Jaffe talked about in his DICE session.

This is a horrible straw man. You assume writers like Jennifer Hepler who don't enjoy playing video games have a dislike for their job, collaborating with game designers, or seeing the results of their work first-hand. In all likelihood having knowledge of how the script translates into cinematic artistry is almost a must, especially at BioWare. Writers have to have some kind of idea as to how cinematic designers will work with the script.

It is usually not the writers that limit game designers, it's quite the opposite in fact. Writers have to perform according to game designers' limitations and specifications. If the Deep Roads were designed to be a long, arduous, grinding sequence then that's not one of the writers' fault. None of them are at fault for that, and you can't change a level that was specifically designed to extend the life of the game through repetitive sequences.

We agree that it's a collaborative effort that drives the storytelling behind video games but you seem to want to shift the blame on one party exclusively.

David Gaider on this matter:

I get the impression that many people think it's like a writer who makes a novel. The writer, in that case, is the driving creative force behind what the audience experiences-- they're essentially theonlyvoice, barring any kind of editorial work that has gone on behind the scenes.

The truth is that it's more like a screenwriter for a movie. Yes, we're often the people who write the dialogue and many times a given plot has its genesis with us-- but, like with a movie, there's far more hands that go into the actualstorythat you're experiencing. Cinematic designers (like John Epler), level designers and even artists are allstorytellersas much as we are. It would be nice if we could just write whatever we wanted, and the rest of the design team existed to implement that vision and only that, but that's not how it is. It's a collaborative effort.

This is not an attempt to shift blame for something you didn't like onto someone else, or detract from the successes our writing team has accomplished-- just a little reality check. The writing is the most obvious thing you notice, sure. Just realize that the entire package that you're enjoying has a lot more that went into it than just the work of one person. Even the writing on a specific plot or character often has had more than one person working on it.

So just be careful when you single something out and say "X is responsible for this". Good or bad, chances are that's not the entire story.

For the record, i was saying that if she was attractive she wouldn't get hate. Not that she gets hate because she is unattractive.

For the record, i was saying that if she was attractive she wouldn't get hate. Not that she gets hate because she is unattractive.

Grimlim

Hi my name is Grimlim and I play the symantics game.

[QUOTE="Grimlim"]

For the record, i was saying that if she was attractive she wouldn't get hate. Not that she gets hate because she is unattractive.

GummiRaccoon

Hi my name is Grimlim and I play the symantics game.

;) Except I clearly said, "Money says if she was attractive she would get no hate." Not to mention I went on to say that I didn't like what she said, so in no way was i white knighting or w/e. What I said still stands, gamers would probably defend the woman if she was attractive, which is unfair.

Semantics*

A good video how? some writer gets bashed despite everyone who has a brancell knows that this writer just follow orders and hands in what she thinks is good writing and then the higher up dev takes the decision. Thinking that she hsa anything to do with how Biowares games turns out is like thinking the moon is actually the Sun. It's a very good video until the last 10 seconds where it goes off on a relentless attack

[QUOTE="GummiRaccoon"]

[QUOTE="Grimlim"]

For the record, i was saying that if she was attractive she wouldn't get hate. Not that she gets hate because she is unattractive.

Grimlim

Hi my name is Grimlim and I play the symantics game.

;) Except I clearly said, "Money says if she was attractive she would get no hate." Not to mention I went on to say that I didn't like what she said, so in no way was i white knighting or w/e. What I said still stands, gamers would probably defend the woman if she was attractive, which is unfair.

Semantics*

Whether you think it or not, the spirit of what you said and what I said is exactly the same, her looks are not fantastic.

The fact that when we discuss something intellectual and you jump to physical appearance shows what you think of a woman's worth. (Not found in their brains)

and yes I accidentally mixed semantics with symantec, congratualations you found a spelling error.

[QUOTE="Grimlim"]

[QUOTE="GummiRaccoon"]

Hi my name is Grimlim and I play the symantics game.

GummiRaccoon

;) Except I clearly said, "Money says if she was attractive she would get no hate." Not to mention I went on to say that I didn't like what she said, so in no way was i white knighting or w/e. What I said still stands, gamers would probably defend the woman if she was attractive, which is unfair.

Semantics*

Whether you think it or not, the spirit of what you said and what I said is exactly the same, her looks are not fantastic.

The fact that when we discuss something intellectual and you jump to physical appearance shows what you think of a woman's worth. (Not found in their brains)

and yes I accidentally mixed semantics with symantec, congratualations you found a spelling error.

Except you took what I said out of context and spun it around. I was saying more about how gamers would be all "doesn't matter, she's hot" if she was attractive. I wasnt saying "gamers just mad cus she ugly."

Then you go and disregard the fact that I don't support her, which i made clear in the second half of my statement, and you state "white knight u misogyny she bad u dumb."

Don't get too down on yourself. People make comprehension mistakes all the time.

[QUOTE="GummiRaccoon"]

[QUOTE="Grimlim"]

;) Except I clearly said, "Money says if she was attractive she would get no hate." Not to mention I went on to say that I didn't like what she said, so in no way was i white knighting or w/e. What I said still stands, gamers would probably defend the woman if she was attractive, which is unfair.

Semantics*

Grimlim

Whether you think it or not, the spirit of what you said and what I said is exactly the same, her looks are not fantastic.

The fact that when we discuss something intellectual and you jump to physical appearance shows what you think of a woman's worth. (Not found in their brains)

and yes I accidentally mixed semantics with symantec, congratualations you found a spelling error.

Except you took what I said out of context and spun it around. I was saying more about how gamers would be all "doesn't matter, she's hot" if she was attractive. I wasnt saying "gamers just mad cus she ugly."

Then you go and disregard the fact that I don't support her, which i made clear in the second half of my statement, and you state "white knight u misogyny she bad u dumb."

Don't get too down on yourself. People make comprehension mistakes all the time.

"If she were attractive" Implies she is not attractive.

Not attractive means unactractive.

Unattractive means ugly.

Therefore you claim she gets hate because she's ugly.

And you don't even contradict the statements about Cliffy B being a piece of crap that get's more hate than this lady or the fact that people make a bigger deal out of Gabe Newell's extreme fatness.

The point is she sucks AND not because she's dog ugly. The fact that YOU made that conclusion makes you a mysogynist white knight.

Thank you and good day.

[QUOTE="Grimlim"]

[QUOTE="GummiRaccoon"]

Whether you think it or not, the spirit of what you said and what I said is exactly the same, her looks are not fantastic.

The fact that when we discuss something intellectual and you jump to physical appearance shows what you think of a woman's worth. (Not found in their brains)

and yes I accidentally mixed semantics with symantec, congratualations you found a spelling error.

GummiRaccoon

Except you took what I said out of context and spun it around. I was saying more about how gamers would be all "doesn't matter, she's hot" if she was attractive. I wasnt saying "gamers just mad cus she ugly."

Then you go and disregard the fact that I don't support her, which i made clear in the second half of my statement, and you state "white knight u misogyny she bad u dumb."

Don't get too down on yourself. People make comprehension mistakes all the time.

"If she were attractive" Implies she is not attractive.

Not attractive means unactractive.

Unattractive means ugly.

Therefore you claim she gets hate because she's ugly.

And you don't even contradict the statements about Cliffy B being a piece of crap that get's more hate than this lady or the fact that people make a bigger deal out of Gabe Newell's extreme fatness.

The point is she sucks AND not because she's dog ugly. The fact that YOU made that conclusion makes you a mysogynist white knight.

Thank you and good day.

Ill make it short.

Not attractive people are not necessarily ugly. But she definitely is ugly anyways.

I never said she got hate because she is not attractive. I said she would get less if she was attractive.

I don't care about cliffy b or gabe newell, and i didn't read your statements about it. That is unrelated anyways.

I don't understand the last point... I said i disagree with her statements and she is not attractive (i didn't say ugly. She is clearly not attractive though.) In no way does that make me a misogynist. Nor does that make me a white knight as i didn't try to defend her.

I won't post anymore because the debate will continue on with you being stubborn and me being right. The result will be "you implied x" and i'll say "you inferred x. That was a bad inference."

so cya

[QUOTE="GummiRaccoon"]

[QUOTE="Grimlim"]

Except you took what I said out of context and spun it around. I was saying more about how gamers would be all "doesn't matter, she's hot" if she was attractive. I wasnt saying "gamers just mad cus she ugly."

Then you go and disregard the fact that I don't support her, which i made clear in the second half of my statement, and you state "white knight u misogyny she bad u dumb."

Don't get too down on yourself. People make comprehension mistakes all the time.

Grimlim

"If she were attractive" Implies she is not attractive.

Not attractive means unactractive.

Unattractive means ugly.

Therefore you claim she gets hate because she's ugly.

And you don't even contradict the statements about Cliffy B being a piece of crap that get's more hate than this lady or the fact that people make a bigger deal out of Gabe Newell's extreme fatness.

The point is she sucks AND not because she's dog ugly. The fact that YOU made that conclusion makes you a mysogynist white knight.

Thank you and good day.

Ill make it short.

Not attractive people are not necessarily ugly. But she definitely is ugly anyways.

I never said she got hate because she is not attractive. I said she would get less if she was attractive.

I don't care about cliffy b or gabe newell, and i didn't read your statements about it. That is unrelated anyways.

I don't understand the last point... I said i disagree with her statements and she is not attractive (i didn't say ugly. She is clearly not attractive though.) In no way does that make me a misogynist. Nor does that make me a white knight as i didn't try to defend her.

I won't post anymore because the debate will continue on with you being stubborn and me being right. The result will be "you implied x" and i'll say "you inferred x. That was a bad inference."

so cya

Like I said, you play the semantics game.