List of games with mandatory online activation

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jamyskis

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#1 jamyskis
Member since 2004 • 779 Posts

Given as there are a lot of people (myself included) who flatly refuse to buy games with mandatory online activation (DRM, Digital Restrictions Management), there seems to be a distinct lack of centralised information on which games actually include this rubbish.

It'd be great if someone could sticky this, as I think it would be a very useful source of information for people who wish to inform themselves before buying:

  • Aliens vs. Predator [Steam, game tied to one account, non-resellable]
  • Alone in the Dark [SecuROM, one activation possible, revokable]
  • Assassin's Creed 2 [Ubisoft Online Services, game tied to one account, internet connection required at all times, non-resellable]
  • Avatar: The Game [TAGES, three activations possible, one activation credited a month]
  • Bioshock [SecuROM, previously limited activations, now no limit]
  • Bioshock 2 [GFWL, 15 activations possible, need to call Microsoft to obtain more, also SecuROM to check date]
  • Blood Bowl [SecuROM, three activations possible, revokable]
  • Borderlands [SecuROM, unknown number of activations possible, revokable]
  • Burnout Paradise [SecuROM, five activations possible, revokable]
  • Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 [Steam, game tied to one account, non-resellable]
  • The Chronicles of Riddick: Assault on Dark Athena [SecuROM, three installations possible, need to call Atari to obtain more]
  • Cities XL [unknown DRM system, DRM servers to be shut down soon!]
  • Codename: Panzers - Cold War [unknown DRM system, three activations possible, no further information available]
  • Command and Conquer: Red Alert 3 [SecuROM, three activations possible, revokable]
  • Command and Conquer 4: Tiberian Twilight [EA internal DRM, game tied to one account, internet connection required at all times, non-resellable]
  • Crysis: Warhead [SecuROM, three activations possible, revokable]
  • Dead Space [SecuROM, five activations possible, revokable]
  • Dreamkiller [Steam, game tied to one account, non-resellable]
  • Earth 2160 [Zuxxez internal DRM, three activations possible, need to register with full personal details to obtain more]
  • Empire: Total War [Steam, game tied to one account, non-resellable]
  • FEAR 2: Project Origin [Steam, game tied to one account, non-resellable]
  • FIFA '09 [SecuROM, either three or five activations, revokable]
  • FIFA Manager '09 [SecuROM, five activations possible, revokable]
  • Football Manager 2009 [Steam, game tied to one account]
  • Flight Simulator X [Microsoft DRM, no further information available]
  • Ghostbusters: The Video Game [SecuROM, no further information available]
  • The Godfather 2 [SecuROM, no further information available]
  • Grand Theft Auto 4 [SecuROM, no limit to installations, revokable anyway (!)]
  • Half-Life 2/The Orange Box [Steam, game tied to one account, non-resellable]
  • King Arthur: The Role-Playing Wargame [Steam, game tied to one account, non-resellable]
  • Halo 2 [Microsoft DRM, no further information available]
  • Just Cause 2 [Steam, game tied to one account, non-resellable]
  • The Last Remnant [Steam, game tied to one account, non-resellable]
  • Left 4 Dead [Steam, game tied to one account, non-resellable]
  • Left 4 Dead 2 [Steam, game tied to one account, non-resellable]
  • Legendary [SecuROM, five activations possible, revokable]
  • Lord of the Rings: Conquest [SecuROM, five activations possible, revokable]
  • Mass Effect [SecuROM, three activations possible, revokable]
  • Metro 2033 [Steam, game tied to one account, non-resellable]
  • Mirror's Edge [SecuROM, five activations possible, revokable]
  • Napoleon: Total War [Steam, game tied to one account, non-resellable]
  • NBA 2K9 [Steam, game tied to one account, non-resellable]
  • Need for Speed: Undercover [SecuROM, three activations possible, revokable]
  • NHL '09 [SecuROM, unknown number of activations, revokable]
  • Portal [Steam, game tied to one account, non-resellable]
  • Sacred 2 [SecuROM, two activations possible, revokable]
  • Saint's Row 2 [Steam, game tied to one account, non-resellable]
  • Section 8 [Microsoft DRM, no further information available]
  • Serious Sam HD: The First Encounter [Steam, game tied to one account, non-resellable]
  • The Settlers 7 [Ubisoft Online Services, game tied to one account, internet connection required at all times, non-resellable]
  • Silent Hunter 5 [Ubisoft Online Services, game tied to one account, internet connection required at all times, non-resellable]
  • Shadowrun [Microsoft DRM, no further information available]
  • Splinter Cell: Conviction [Ubisoft Online Services, game tied to one account, internet connection required at all times, non-resellable]
  • Spore [SecuROM, five activations possible, revokable]
  • Starcraft 2 [unknown DRM system, no details available]
  • Supreme Commander 2 [Steam, game tied to one account, non-resellable]
  • Two Worlds [Zuxxez internal DRM, three activations possible, need to pay (!!!) and register with full personal details to obtain more]
  • Velvet Assassin [Steam, game tied to one account, non-resellable, warning - many retail versions do not mention online activation]
  • Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War II [Steam, game tied to one account, non-resellable]
  • X-Blades [Zuxxez internal DRM, three activations possible, need to register with full personal details to obtain more]

Preemptive list

These games are not confirmed to be infected, but it is reasonable to assume that they will be contaminated with DRM based on past experience or current events:

  • Mafia II [every game by 2KGames for the past year and a half has relied on online activation - can't see this being any different]
  • Spec Ops: The Line [ditto]
  • Prince of Persia: The Forgotten Sands [ditto]
  • Ghost Recon: Future Soldier [ditto]
  • RUSE [ditto]
  • Two Worlds II [TopWare have an absolutely appalling track record with DRM, the first Two Worlds didn't even mention the DRM on the box]

As a rule:

  • All games are technically impossible to resell, as there is no guarantee for the buyer that they will be able to activate it. You may face legal action from the buyer if they are unable to activate the product they have purchased from you!
  • All games may be unplayable in the future when the activation servers are deactivated. None of the publishers of the games listed above have formally committed to releasing patches to ensure that the games continue to be playable. You will have no legal recourse if they do not follow up on these promises.
  • Should you have to call a customer support hotline to obtain more activations, they are legally entitled to reject your request, and it has been known for them to often do this (especially Zuxxez)

I should also mention that I have not included games bought via digital distribution, as they almost always invariably have DRM. Likewise a number of titles (Dawn of Discovery/Anno 1404, Far Cry 2) have since had the DRM removed. I'll try and keep this up to date.

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thusaha

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#2 thusaha
Member since 2007 • 14495 Posts
+ Team Fortress 2 and Portal.
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carlosjuero

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#3 carlosjuero
Member since 2008 • 1254 Posts
Borderlands - only the DLC introduces online activation, vanilla game does not require it (unless it is bundled w/ SecuROM via whatever digital distributor you get it from) The Settlers 7 - This will be using the new Ubisoft 'DRM' so it isn't just online activation WH 40K DoW II - doesn't truly fall into the category, it uses Steam as its DRM (with GFWL as its MP component) You are using online activation as a broad method of saying DRM - but DRM covers many more basis than that. Might want to note that Spore, Mass Effect, and the C&C games listed have de-authorization tools available on EA's website
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NoctisCaelum52

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#4 NoctisCaelum52
Member since 2009 • 1359 Posts
So Resident Evil 5 doesn't need an online activation ?
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jamyskis

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#5 jamyskis
Member since 2004 • 779 Posts

thusaha - They're added, thanks!

carlosjuero - With Settlers 7 and AC 2, a connection is still a requirement, so it still fits the purpose of the list. Dawn of War 2 uses Steam, which is DRM/online activation, so it stays in the list.

NoctisCaelum52 - Not that I'm aware of.

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carlosjuero

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#6 carlosjuero
Member since 2008 • 1254 Posts
So Resident Evil 5 doesn't need an online activation ?NoctisCaelum52
RE 5 uses GFWL as its main copy protection from what I understand, once you register a key its tied to that GFWL account.
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carlosjuero

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#7 carlosjuero
Member since 2008 • 1254 Posts

thusaha - They're added, thanks!

carlosjuero - With Settlers 7 and AC 2, a connection is still a requirement, so it still fits the purpose of the list. Dawn of War 2 uses Steam, which is DRM/online activation, so it stays in the list.

NoctisCaelum52 - Not that I'm aware of.

jamyskis
You might get some heat from folks who think steam is the be all end all of gaming platforms... If using steam as its DRM is a contender then your list is much too short - the new AvP will be reliant on Steamworks/Steam DRM.
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jamyskis

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#8 jamyskis
Member since 2004 • 779 Posts
[QUOTE="NoctisCaelum52"]So Resident Evil 5 doesn't need an online activation ?carlosjuero
RE 5 uses GFWL as its main copy protection from what I understand, once you register a key its tied to that GFWL account.

You can still play without a connection though.
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carlosjuero

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#9 carlosjuero
Member since 2008 • 1254 Posts
[QUOTE="carlosjuero"][QUOTE="NoctisCaelum52"]So Resident Evil 5 doesn't need an online activation ?jamyskis
RE 5 uses GFWL as its main copy protection from what I understand, once you register a key its tied to that GFWL account.

You can still play without a connection though.

You can play DoW 2 without a connection in Offline Mode too :)
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jamyskis

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#10 jamyskis
Member since 2004 • 779 Posts
[QUOTE="carlosjuero"][QUOTE="jamyskis"][QUOTE="carlosjuero"] RE 5 uses GFWL as its main copy protection from what I understand, once you register a key its tied to that GFWL account.

You can still play without a connection though.

You can play DoW 2 without a connection in Offline Mode too :)

AvP added. DoW 2 still needs to be activated via Steam. That means if Steam goes offline, your game is worth zilch.
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NoctisCaelum52

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#11 NoctisCaelum52
Member since 2009 • 1359 Posts
[QUOTE="carlosjuero"][QUOTE="NoctisCaelum52"]So Resident Evil 5 doesn't need an online activation ?jamyskis
RE 5 uses GFWL as its main copy protection from what I understand, once you register a key its tied to that GFWL account.

You can still play without a connection though.

But you can't save your game unless you're logged in ?
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jamyskis

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#12 jamyskis
Member since 2004 • 779 Posts

Added Silent Hunter 5 now that it has been confirmed that it will be using Ubisoft's ridiculous Digital Restrictions Management system.

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Falconoffury

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#13 Falconoffury
Member since 2003 • 1722 Posts

In my opinion, you should be able to disable your internet connection, pop in your game DVD, install it, and play the single player just fine. Anything else should go on this list.

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Renevent42

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#14 Renevent42
Member since 2010 • 6654 Posts
Look at all the amazing games you guys are missing out on :lol:
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Falconoffury

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#15 Falconoffury
Member since 2003 • 1722 Posts

We aren't really going to be missing out. We are just going to wait until they are like $5.00. I think that's a fair price for a service that allows me to play a single player game, rather than actually owning the game.

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Renevent42

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#16 Renevent42
Member since 2010 • 6654 Posts
Well good luck with that, it takes a long time for most major releases to get down to $5. Most of the games on your list are fairly old, and nowhere near $5. And to be honest...you guys are such a small minority nobody is paying attention. The only one being effected by this non-sense is yourselves. Me? For $20-$50 I'll just play games and enjoy them, and not worry about this silliness.
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jamyskis

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#17 jamyskis
Member since 2004 • 779 Posts

Well good luck with that, it takes a long time for most major releases to get down to $5. Most of the games on your list are fairly old, and nowhere near $5. And to be honest...you guys are such a small minority nobody is paying attention. The only one being effected by this non-sense is yourselves. Me? For $20-$50 I'll just play games and enjoy them, and not worry about this silliness.Renevent42

You knock yourself out. Come back and tell us when you've managed to sell one of these games or continue playing it in ten years time.

I personally don't see myself as missing out on anything. If this is the direction that gaming is going, I have much better things to be spending my money on. I feel sorry for anyone who is so hopelessly dependent on PC games that they let themselves be dictated to like this.

Changing the subject, I've added Two Worlds - be warned with this game, the publisher tries to claim that it is "voluntary", and the information is omitted from the package. However, I've had my own experience with this and am consulting a lawyer about action to take...

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charmingcharlie

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#18 charmingcharlie
Member since 2006 • 1244 Posts

I think it would be a lot easier if you just had a list of games that DON'T use online authentication. It is a sad fact that online authentication is being used more and more (I expect it to even feature in the next xbox). This online authentication is not going to get better it is going to get worse. So I don't really see the point in this list because sooner rather than later all games will have it.

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DanielDust

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#19 DanielDust
Member since 2007 • 15402 Posts
[QUOTE="jamyskis"][QUOTE="carlosjuero"][QUOTE="jamyskis"] You can still play without a connection though.

You can play DoW 2 without a connection in Offline Mode too :)

AvP added. DoW 2 still needs to be activated via Steam. That means if Steam goes offline, your game is worth zilch.

That is only if you consider misinformation, if you actually stop to think and use common sense...yep, you will be able to play it even if Steam goes down (which will never happen).
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jamyskis

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#20 jamyskis
Member since 2004 • 779 Posts
[QUOTE="DanielDust"] That is only if you consider misinformation, if you actually stop to think and use common sense...yep, you will be able to play it even if Steam goes down (which will never happen).

Oh, sweet Jesus. The epitome of fanboyism - utter self-delusion Exactly what makes you think that Steam will never go down? Exactly what "misinformation" is that? I seriously find it hard that you can in your right mind believe that Steam will be up for ever and ever and will never be shut down. But I guess it's just like your first childhood love. You believe that they too are "forever and ever" because you're too naive and inexperienced to believe otherwise. Then they drop you like a hot brick.
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jamyskis

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#21 jamyskis
Member since 2004 • 779 Posts

I think it would be a lot easier if you just had a list of games that DON'T use online authentication. It is a sad fact that online authentication is being used more and more (I expect it to even feature in the next xbox). This online authentication is not going to get better it is going to get worse. So I don't really see the point in this list because sooner rather than later all games will have it.

charmingcharlie

I do actually have a sister thread that lists a number of recent games that don't use online authentication. PC gaming was dead for me long ago - I've sold the vast majority of my games in protest and spent the money on something worthwhile (for the record, I sold next to 2,000 games and brought in around €8,000 over four months) but I'm doing this to help anyone else that may fall into this trap. I occasionally buy PS3 and PSP games, but that too has little interest for me. I'm not an XBox gamer so if Microsoft choose to implement that in their next console, that's their problem, but if Sony do the same, I won't touch it with a barge pole. As I said, I'm/I was a passionate gamer, but I'm not blind and I'm not stupid. I know when I'm being played for a fool and there are other things to spend my money on if the publishers wish to continue to try and treat me like an idiot.

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DanielDust

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#22 DanielDust
Member since 2007 • 15402 Posts
You didn't stop to think, did you? What I said about it not going down is my opinion, but what I said about being able to play your games if Steam goes down is a fact. They announced that if something happens they'll release a patch to make all the games standalone. That is the misinformation that I speak of, but something more comes with misinformation, like ignorance and hate, which you clearly displayed in your last post.
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SemperFi10

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#23 SemperFi10
Member since 2004 • 3139 Posts

Alphabetize please!

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jamyskis

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#24 jamyskis
Member since 2004 • 779 Posts

You didn't stop to think, did you?

What I said about it not going down is my opinion, but what I said about being able to play your games if Steam goes down is a fact. They announced that if something happens they'll release a patch to make all the games standalone.

That is the misinformation that I speak of, but something more comes with misinformation, like ignorance and hate, which you clearly displayed in your last post.DanielDust


Nothing with ignorance and hate. If I seemed annoyed in my last post, it's because of the sheer idiocy and sheeplike behaviour that I keep observing on this subject.

I'm well aware of the "promises" that have been made regarding patches to eliminate the DRM, but there's a couple of interesting facts that you ought to take into consideration:

These "promises" are in no way legally binding. They have not been issued in any kind of legally binding written document. These "promises" have been given in customer support messages via e-mail and on website forums, neither of which will stand up as being legally binding in a court of law.

Ask yourself: why are these promises not included, in the case of Steam, in the Steam Subscriber Agreement, the only legally binding agreement with regard to how Steam is used? Oh, that's right - you probably haven't even read it, even though you accuse ME of ignorance. Well, my friend, let me enlighten you, straight from the horse's mouth:



A. DISCLAIMERS.

THE ENTIRE RISK ARISING OUT OF USE OR PERFORMANCE OF STEAM, THE STEAM SOFTWARE, AND MERCHANDISE REMAINS WITH YOU, THE USER. VALVE EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS (I) ANY WARRANTY FOR STEAM, THE STEAM SOFTWARE, AND THE MERCHANDISE, AND (II) ANY COMMON LAW DUTIES WITH REGARD TO STEAM, THE STEAM SOFTWARE, AND THE MERCHANDISE, INCLUDING DUTIES OF LACK OF NEGLIGENCE AND LACK OF WORKMANLIKE EFFORT. STEAM, THE STEAM SOFTWARE, THE MERCHANDISE, AND ANY INFORMATION AVAILABLE IN CONNECTION THEREWITH ARE PROVIDED ON AN "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS, "WITH ALL FAULTS" AND WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NONINFRINGEMENT. ANY WARRANTY AGAINST INFRINGEMENT THAT MAY BE PROVIDED IN SECTION 2-312(3) OF THE UNIFORM COMMERCIAL CODE AND/OR IN ANY OTHER COMPARABLE STATE STATUTE IS EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMED. ALSO, THERE IS NO WARRANTY OF TITLE, INTERFERENCE WITH YOUR ENJOYMENT, OR AUTHORITY IN CONNECTION WITH STEAM, THE STEAM SOFTWARE, MERCHANDISE OR INFORMATION AVAILABLE IN CONNECTION THEREWITH. THIS SECTION WILL APPLY TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW.

B. LIMITATION OF LIABILITY.

NEITHER VALVE, ITS LICENSORS, NOR THEIR AFFILIATES SHALL BE LIABLE IN ANY WAY FOR LOSS OR DAMAGE OF ANY KIND RESULTING FROM THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE STEAM, YOUR ACCOUNT, YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS AND THE STEAM SOFTWARE INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, LOSS OF GOODWILL, WORK STOPPAGE, COMPUTER FAILURE OR MALFUNCTION, OR ANY AND ALL OTHER COMMERCIAL DAMAGES OR LOSSES. IN NO EVENT WILL VALVE BE LIABLE FOR ANY INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, SPECIAL, PUNITIVE, EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, OR ANY OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF OR IN ANY WAY CONNECTED WITH STEAM, STEAM SOFTWARE, MERCHANDISE THAT YOU ACQUIRE VIA STEAM, ANY INFORMATION AVAILABLE IN CONNECTION THEREWITH, OR THE DELAY OR INABILITY TO USE MERCHANDISE OR ANY INFORMATION, EVEN IN THE EVENT OF FAULT, TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE), STRICT LIABILITY, BREACH OF CONTRACT, OR BREACH OF VALVE'S WARRANTY AND EVEN IF VALVE HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. THESE LIMITATIONS AND EXCLUSIONS REGARDING DAMAGES APPLY EVEN IF ANY REMEDY FAILS.

C. NO GUARANTEES.

VALVE DOES NOT GUARANTEE CONTINUOUS, ERROR-FREE, VIRUS-FREE OR SECURE OPERATION AND ACCESS TO STEAM, THE STEAM SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND/OR YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS(S).Steam Subscriber Agreement

C. Termination by Valve.

1. In the case of a recurring payment Subscription (e.g., a monthly subscription), in the event that Valve terminates or cancels your Account or a particular Subscription for convenience, Valve may, but is not obligated to, provide a prorated refund of any prepaid Subscription fees paid to Valve.
2. In the case of a one-time purchase of a product license (e.g., purchase of a single game) from Valve, Valve may choose to terminate or cancel your Subscription in its entirety or may terminate or cancel only a portion of the Subscription (e.g., access to the software via Steam) and Valve may, but is not obligated to, provide access (for a limited period of time) to the download of a stand-alone version of the software and content associated with such one-time purchase.Steam Subscriber Agreement

Still think that Valve will absolutely let you keep playing if they stop supporting the games in question?

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DanielDust

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#25 DanielDust
Member since 2007 • 15402 Posts

Assumptions, I don't really care for conspiracy theories from random people but I also don't blindly trust Valve, so until the worst happens we will never know.

A) Basically, Valve doesn't assume responsibility for games made by random developers (patches, failures, etc) and they are not responsible for any issues cause by DRM (like limited installations that would result in a warranty void).

B) Valve doesn't assume responsibility for errors caused by improper use of their software, or hardware failure.

C) Any software has occasional errors, there are maintenance periods ( so no continuous access) and by virus free and safe operation that refers to the users not steam itself, because I'm sure you know about phishers, etc, thus making them "inscribe" that message in your chat window (never share your account details and don't ever go on any steam site other than steampowered.com)

About the 2nd C, it's pretty much about MMOs there so I don't really care.

Like you said there's a lot of idiocy going around this subject. We can assume all we want and make conspiracy theories but at the end of the day Valve still keeps their promises (and don't give me the L4D 2 excuse). I don't trust them to the end but I don't doubt them so much that I go on forums and make random hate posts about Valve/Steam and interpret their TOS in any way that I like.

Only time will tell which one was right, Valve or the insecure users. Till then I enjoy the games that I have be it through Steam or EADM, or just retail. Sure some games might inconvenience some with their DRM, but my question is, if you bought the game and consider it worthwhile, where is the problem? don't tell me that some random stories on the internet scare you. I personally had problems with Starforce (thank god it's gone) and SecuROM (Crysis), but that didn't stop me from playing my games and I certainly didn't become threatened by the DRM, I buy game to have fun, not to get into meaningless worries about DRM, or other things. One thing is certain online activation will become a standard so if you really like gaming, you will only get more into it, you can't evade all games that have such DRM if all the good ones will use it.

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zomglolcats

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#26 zomglolcats
Member since 2008 • 4335 Posts
About Valve patching games if Steam goes under... I've said this repeatedly, but if Steam goes under, Valve is bankrupt. Who is going to sit around creating your patch if the company as zero money? It's a bit naive to assume that it is guaranteed they will be able to patch it so that Steam isn't required in the event they go under. At that point, you'd have to use a third party hack, so it isn't TOO big of an issue, but just saying that Valve might not be able to deliver on that promise.
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DanielDust

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#27 DanielDust
Member since 2007 • 15402 Posts
If hackers can make any Steam game standalone in minutes, I'm pretty sure that Valve can develop a simple application that would make all the games act independent. If they will have troubles they won't just go under over night, they will announce and by that time your only worries should be about downloading all your steam games on the HDD.
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True_Sounds

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#28 True_Sounds
Member since 2009 • 2915 Posts

It's pretty common knowledge around the pc forums that DanielDust makes absurb assumptions in his posts with little basis or justification other than 'opinion'. You'd do yourself a favor to overlook his posts and not get caught in frustration :) I think he might be one of the self-righteous post reporters too, but I can't really remember. If so, another reason not to get caught up in lame arguments.

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DanielDust

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#29 DanielDust
Member since 2007 • 15402 Posts
Nope I don't report and I don't see what assumptions I'm making in not making any assumptions but also giving Valve the benefit of the doubt. Also I wasn't expecting you to make such accusations, looking at your posts...
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jamyskis

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#30 jamyskis
Member since 2004 • 779 Posts
If hackers can make any Steam game standalone in minutes, I'm pretty sure that Valve can develop a simple application that would make all the games act independent. If they will have troubles they won't just go under over night, they will announce and by that time your only worries should be about downloading all your steam games on the HDD.DanielDust
You're overestimating the ability of hackers to create a steamless game. I do believe it took a good couple of months for a working standalone hack version of Modern Warfare 2 to come out, and even that was incapable of playing multiplayer properly. Although, in this case, MW2 has pretty much died now - most of my XFire friends list has gone back to CoD 4. And you'll be amazed how quickly and unexpectedly a company can go under - just look at Empire Interactive. As far as your responses to the points mentioned are concerned, you seem to have little or no experience with legal jargon. It's my job to write and translate these kinds of texts, so here's a translation for you: Point A talks about how Valve refuses to accept any kind of responsibility if Steam refuses to work. They mention that if Steam does not do what it's designed to do, that's your problem. Won't connect to Steam even though your connection is fine? Tough. There is NO mention of third-party software in that clause as you claim - third-party software is covered elsewhere. Point B expands upon point A, and explicitly states that Valve is not legally liable if you cannot access Steam (i.e. if it goes offline) at any time. It does indeed also include exclusionary clauses for cases such as computer failure on the user's part, but is of a much wider scope. Point C is again an expansion upon the same, this time to cover their own backsides should access to the Steam service cease. The "second point C" has absolutely nothing to do with MMOs, especially not the second part of it. The "Subscription" (note: capital S) refers to the subscription that you have to the Steam service. It states that they reserve the right to cancel your subscription at any time - it does not state the conditions under which they can do so. There's also a bit of clever wording here - they state that they 'might' give you a working, Steam-independent version of the game (the 'standalone' version) but they don't have to. This is in there because it provides a 'way out' should you be blocked off from your games due to Steam ceasing support for it. Promises made via e-mail or forums? Doesn't matter. What matters is what you agreed to, the 'contract of sale', i.e. this agreement, when you bought the game. I sincerely hope I'm wrong when I say this, but you seem to be the sort that will take the word of a complete stranger for granted, and this sort of attitude will get you into trouble one of these days. You 'trust' friends to keep their word. With businesses we have contracts to make sure that they keep their word, and you don't sign away your money without having some kind of written assurance. Valve is not your friend. Valve wants you to believe that they are your friends, but Valve is, for better or for worse, a business with whom you are doing business, and you should handle it respectively - after all, they do.
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jamyskis

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#31 jamyskis
Member since 2004 • 779 Posts

It's pretty common knowledge around the pc forums that DanielDust makes absurb assumptions in his posts with little basis or justification other than 'opinion'. You'd do yourself a favor to overlook his posts and not get caught in frustration :) I think he might be one of the self-righteous post reporters too, but I can't really remember. If so, another reason not to get caught up in lame arguments.

True_Sounds
I didn't actually know that - useful to know, but I think I've figured that out for myself now :)
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DanielDust

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#32 DanielDust
Member since 2007 • 15402 Posts

I know very well what I said about A,B and C, and I didn't go into detail much, but that's the basic meaning of what they said as for the 2nd C, I didn't read it with much interest but yes, I see that it said about Steam itself but those termination clauses are strictly tied to your behavior and use of Steam, and short, if you stay legit and you don't try to cheat, you won't have problems. Those things happen only if somebody tries to break the most important rules of Steam, trying to steal accounts, excessive swearing on the steam forums or in the game chat or through voice chat, abusive content on your Steam profile page, and cheating online (strictly applies to Valve games or games that use VAC) or trying to edit fundamental files of Steam.

I don't trust Valve, I know they're in this business for money, but I also won't go around the internet swearing and hating Valve like those "smart" people that compared them to EA because they made a sequel after an year yet they all bought it. It's just that my opinion about Valve is a little more than neutral it's not 50-50, it's 51-49, so far they didn't let fans down, they didn't make horrible games and they kept their promises (more or less, but at least they fulfilled every promise to a certain degree). I don't fully trust Blizzard which I care for way more than Valve, anything can go wrong, but until I see that things go wrong I can't believe that they're all lying bastards that try to cheat us all and get every single cent from us.

As for T_S's comment, look up common knowledge, because I don't see this forum common knowledge that you talk about and so far you're the only one that made those accusations/offensive comments, except one case that makes you lose all your credibility, Dakan. Till you show me this users that consider me a troll or something, I suggest you stick to your usual mediocre, hateful posts that lack the common knowledge you speak of and common sense.

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Renevent42

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#33 Renevent42
Member since 2010 • 6654 Posts

[QUOTE="Renevent42"]Well good luck with that, it takes a long time for most major releases to get down to $5. Most of the games on your list are fairly old, and nowhere near $5. And to be honest...you guys are such a small minority nobody is paying attention. The only one being effected by this non-sense is yourselves. Me? For $20-$50 I'll just play games and enjoy them, and not worry about this silliness.jamyskis

You knock yourself out. Come back and tell us when you've managed to sell one of these games or continue playing it in ten years time.

I personally don't see myself as missing out on anything. If this is the direction that gaming is going, I have much better things to be spending my money on. I feel sorry for anyone who is so hopelessly dependent on PC games that they let themselves be dictated to like this.

Changing the subject, I've added Two Worlds - be warned with this game, the publisher tries to claim that it is "voluntary", and the information is omitted from the package. However, I've had my own experience with this and am consulting a lawyer about action to take...

The only people who are hopeless are people like you...utterly wasting your time about a $20-$50 purchase lasting you 10+ years. Not only is this worry baseless (no game has stopped being playable, and DRM has been around a long time), but it's such a petty overreaction too.

I mean, if 10 years from now some game I purchased for a measly $20-$50 stops working...big freaking deal. You know how many DOS games I have that the floppies went bad?

You guys need to get a grip...because this stuff is starting to get really silly.

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jamyskis

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#34 jamyskis
Member since 2004 • 779 Posts
I mean, if 10 years from now some game I purchased for a measly $20-$50 stops working...big freaking deal. You know how many DOS games I have that the floppies went bad? You guys need to get a grip...because this stuff is starting to get really silly and petty. Renevent42
If your floppies are going bad, that's because you don't look after them, and that's what backups are for. I still have a working copy of Tornado on floppy that I still play, and countless MS-DOS games on CD-ROM that are more than 15 years old. All of them still work. Helps if you store them properly. And that "measly" $20-$50 ? Look up how much Ultima Collection, Final Fantasy 7 + 8 and the 90s LucasArts games fetch on eBay... Don't underestimate the worth of a game...
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Jd1680a

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#35 Jd1680a
Member since 2005 • 5960 Posts
Legitimate buyers will have to pay for a little inconvenience due to piracy.
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jamyskis

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#36 jamyskis
Member since 2004 • 779 Posts
Legitimate buyers will have to pay for a little inconvenience due to piracy.Jd1680a
Why should we? Why should we suffer for the actions of criminals? We already put up with disc-based protection, which is bearable because we are not dependent on the publisher to "permit" us to play the game. And to believe that DRM has *anything* to do with piracy is naive - it is wholly and solely about ownership control. If the publishers don't want you to keep playing that game because they will be releasing the sequel, it's time to hit the kill switch.
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JangoWuzHere

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#37 JangoWuzHere
Member since 2007 • 19032 Posts

I honestly didn't think people would actually complain so much about online activation. It really isn't that big of a deal unless you actually don't have access to Internet (which I'm sure the majority do have online.).

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jamyskis

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#38 jamyskis
Member since 2004 • 779 Posts
Updates: Now alphabetised Added information on DRM systems used Added Football Manager 2009 (the Sports Interactive one, not the EA Sports one) Removed King's Bounty: The Legend (my mistake) Removed Team Fortress 2 (it's online multiplayer anyway) Readded Borderlands (it is using DRM contrary to popular belief, is inkeeping with 2K Games practice)

I honestly didn't think people would actually complain so much about online activation. It really isn't that big of a deal unless you actually don't have access to Internet (which I'm sure the majority do have online.).

JangoWuzHere
Indeed we do, but not everywhere. And the problem was never about having internet vs. not having internet. It's about gamers having control over the games that they BUY. Would you buy a chair if you had to ring the carpenter whenever you wanted to sit on it three times?
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chandu83

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#39 chandu83
Member since 2005 • 4864 Posts
Don't let people undermine your effort. I think you are doing a great job. I miss those when you bought a game on a disc, you could play it any time you wished. Not so anymore.
Great job again!
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jamyskis

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#40 jamyskis
Member since 2004 • 779 Posts

Don't let people undermine your effort. I think you are doing a great job. I miss those when you bought a game on a disc, you could play it any time you wished. Not so anymore.
Great job again! chandu83

Thanks! It's good to know that my effort is appreciated.

I do wonder why people who are fine with online activation and opposed to this list are posting here, as it's not meant for them. I do know of two companies from insider information that are engaging in astroturfing with regard to DRM (employing people to post on forums and creating 'grassroots' blogs to drum up support and make it appear as though that something is popular or acceptable, I'm contractually forbidden to give out names though).

I suspect the majority of the nay-sayers here though are people so obsessed with the PC and Steam as a gaming platform that they are scared that momentum in the anti-DRM movement may eventually 'kill' the PC gaming scene. If people are fine with online activation, let them be. I know that Steam has its virtues, but I feel that there are simply too many unanswered questions and not enough answers, and VAC is just a joke. The 'benefits' that Steam offers (community, automatic patch downloads, game time tracking, server management) are offered just as well by XFire, and you can play DRM uncontaminated games with XFire. Most of us, however, are concerned about our rights as consumers, and we intend to see that they are protected.

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deactivated-5926b7362eeb7

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#41 deactivated-5926b7362eeb7
Member since 2009 • 126 Posts

Well atm Its not really worrying me too much. I actually kinda like steam, GFWL not so much. I do appreciate this list however so thanks is in order, as often I won't always have internet access.

If it really gets as bad as you say (I'm really hoping not) and a lot of my DVD software more or less turns into expensive frisbees, I'll probably just switch to console gaming completely assuming I still have interest in games at all.

PS: Games I've bought of Direct2Drive generally have 3 activations per download. They've always been very helpful in regards to the few problems I've had. So PC gaming could possibly end up being done totally online some time in the future.

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jamyskis

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#42 jamyskis
Member since 2004 • 779 Posts

Updates for today:

* Added King Arthur: The Role-Playing Wargame (uses Steam, be warned - early retail versions did not mention online requirement)
* Added Section 8 (uses GFWL for single-player and online activation)
* Added 'preemptive list' - games anticipated to include DRM based on previous experience

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Dark_prince123

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#43 Dark_prince123
Member since 2008 • 1149 Posts
what do you mean by revocable ? I have the GTA IV and I installed it 2 times, so I still got 13 , and what if I used them all what will happen ?
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kevy619

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#44 kevy619
Member since 2004 • 5617 Posts

[QUOTE="charmingcharlie"]

I think it would be a lot easier if you just had a list of games that DON'T use online authentication. It is a sad fact that online authentication is being used more and more (I expect it to even feature in the next xbox). This online authentication is not going to get better it is going to get worse. So I don't really see the point in this list because sooner rather than later all games will have it.

jamyskis

I do actually have a sister thread that lists a number of recent games that don't use online authentication. PC gaming was dead for me long ago - I've sold the vast majority of my games in protest and spent the money on something worthwhile (for the record, I sold next to 2,000 games and brought in around €8,000 over four months) but I'm doing this to help anyone else that may fall into this trap. I occasionally buy PS3 and PSP games, but that too has little interest for me. I'm not an XBox gamer so if Microsoft choose to implement that in their next console, that's their problem, but if Sony do the same, I won't touch it with a barge pole. As I said, I'm/I was a passionate gamer, but I'm not blind and I'm not stupid. I know when I'm being played for a fool and there are other things to spend my money on if the publishers wish to continue to try and treat me like an idiot.

did your mother not love you enough?
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DanielDust

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#45 DanielDust
Member since 2007 • 15402 Posts
[QUOTE="Dark_prince123"]what do you mean by revocable ? I have the GTA IV and I installed it 2 times, so I still got 13 , and what if I used them all what will happen ?

When you uninstall the game you get your activation back, so technically you have unlimited installs.
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jamyskis

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#46 jamyskis
Member since 2004 • 779 Posts
[QUOTE="Dark_prince123"]what do you mean by revocable ? I have the GTA IV and I installed it 2 times, so I still got 13 , and what if I used them all what will happen ?

When you uninstall the game you get your activation back, so technically you have unlimited installs.DanielDust
There are actually two layers of DRM for GTA 4. On the one hand you have the SecuROM layer, which is required regardless of how you decide to play the game. It connects to the internet to check the date and 'consume' a licence. The catch here however is that the number of licences is actually unlimited (as far as I know). To save the game you need to create at least an offline GFWL profile - there are no limits on installation here. On the other hand, you also have the GFWL DRM, which requires you to create an online GFWL profile If you want to play online or save your games online - this uses one of your fifteen GFWL installs (SSA licences), which is what dark_prince was talking about. Once they've been used up, you can contact Microsoft and beg them to give you another fifteen (entirely up to them whether they do or not). Once you've got through your thirty, that's it - over and out. No more online play for you. The GFWL dependency is not really much of a problem here. I think 15 installs will be plenty sufficient for the time that the GTA 4 online play servers will be online. The issue is the SecuROM, which will preventing you playing single player at a later date when SecuROM support for GTA 4 ceases (either SecuROM is shut down or Take 2 Interactive ceases to pay licence fees, whichever comes first).
did your mother not love you enough? kevy619
Seriously man, if you're going to hurl cheap insults, surely you can do better than that.
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Jarp3y

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#47 Jarp3y
Member since 2010 • 129 Posts
Yeah i guess this deserves a sticky for a while.
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DanielDust

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#48 DanielDust
Member since 2007 • 15402 Posts
Not really, no, the only limit it has is with the "5" activations which you will use when the game is connected to the internet or, if the connection is available, when you're installing it. GFWL takes care only of servers, there is no 15 limit to GTA IV multiplayer and it absolutely does not have any online save system, which sucks because GFWL has every implementation for such a thing except saving your save game online :/ you'd think they would have implemented it already.
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#49 Falconoffury
Member since 2003 • 1722 Posts

Something to note is the fact that Mass Effect 2 has disk check only, but downloadable content makes it into an online authentication game. It is actually as bad as Ubisoft's system because you can be kicked off if your internet goes down.

Maybe you should have a special section on your list regarding online authentication, for games like Mass Effect 2 and others that require online authentication under certain conditions.

If you can enjoy 99% of the game without online authentication, I have to admit, that's worth it in most cases. EA has a much more reasoned approach than either Ubisoft or Valve. Still, downloadable content should be a patch file, which can be backed up for offline installation, like in the old days of PC gaming.

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kevy619

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#50 kevy619
Member since 2004 • 5617 Posts

[QUOTE="Dark_prince123"] [QUOTE="DanielDust"]When you uninstall the game you get your activation back, so technically you have unlimited installs.jamyskis
There are actually two layers of DRM for GTA 4. On the one hand you have the SecuROM layer, which is required regardless of how you decide to play the game. It connects to the internet to check the date and 'consume' a licence. The catch here however is that the number of licences is actually unlimited (as far as I know). To save the game you need to create at least an offline GFWL profile - there are no limits on installation here. On the other hand, you also have the GFWL DRM, which requires you to create an online GFWL profile If you want to play online or save your games online - this uses one of your fifteen GFWL installs (SSA licences), which is what dark_prince was talking about. Once they've been used up, you can contact Microsoft and beg them to give you another fifteen (entirely up to them whether they do or not). Once you've got through your thirty, that's it - over and out. No more online play for you. The GFWL dependency is not really much of a problem here. I think 15 installs will be plenty sufficient for the time that the GTA 4 online play servers will be online. The issue is the SecuROM, which will preventing you playing single player at a later date when SecuROM support for GTA 4 ceases (either SecuROM is shut down or Take 2 Interactive ceases to pay licence fees, whichever comes first).
did your mother not love you enough? kevy619
Seriously man, if you're going to hurl cheap insults, surely you can do better than that.

well i could write a book, but ill stick to short and sweet. Not my fault you have a complex derived from annoying drm.