Mass Effect Gold... With DRM intact

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Royas

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#1 Royas
Member since 2002 • 1448 Posts

BioEA has announced that Mass Effect has officially gone gold. Community Communications Coordinator Chris Priestly has also confirmed that it went gold with the Securom DRM intact, with only 3 activations allowed. After that, you will have to call EA non-support to ask for more activations of your software (software that you bought). This despite hundreds of pages, thousands of messages from fans expressing disapproval of the limitations. Way to ignore your fans, BioEA! I really appreciate being treated so well by corporate drones.

I grieve for the death of a good development studio, and I grieve for the death of their ethics. I will not be getting this game, even though I really wanted it.

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fireandcloud

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#2 fireandcloud
Member since 2005 • 5118 Posts
meh. i pre-ordered just a few days ago, and i have no regrets. as long as the game's freaking awesome...
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Plague27

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#3 Plague27
Member since 2005 • 501 Posts
This isn't coming to steam, is it?
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RobertBowen

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#4 RobertBowen
Member since 2003 • 4094 Posts

Bioware is just another cog in the corporate machine now, which was to be expected really. I expect them to churn out Mass Effect 2009, 2010, 2011, etc.

I won't be touching another Bioware product, nor anything with EA on the label. That goes for any other developer that uses these kinds of DRM measures.

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fatshodan

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#5 fatshodan
Member since 2008 • 2886 Posts

Way to ignore your fans, BioEA!

Royas

They did compromise a little - and on the far more important point.

People kicked up a big stink about BioShock having a similar system, but honestly, who's it going to affect? How many people actually need more than three simultaneous installations? There was that one reviewer guy, but reviewers =/= the general gaming public. Their needs are exceptional and their needs don't represent those of the average gamer. This is not going to be a big deal for most people. They're just making it a big deal.

Don't get me wrong, I know that anti-piracy measures alwaysand only hurt the legitimate consumers, but honestly, how many people is this really going to inconvenience? Truly inconvenience? Remember that PC gaming is already the place to go for random screw ups. I saw a review of Assassin's Creed where the guy had to make his own (technically illegal) copy of the game because he couldn't even install it, just because the anti-piracy in place screwed with both his DVD drives. There's already a ton of problems in pretty much all PC games that spoils the experience for a minority.

The key point being minority because, again, this isn't going to inconvenience the typical gamer. Most will install, play and uninstall without even knowint it was there.

As for being treated like a criminal, why does it really matter? All companies treat their customers and employees like insects, because that's all we are. Just because they're drawing attention to it doesn't mean it wasn't already happening. Criminal/insect... what's the difference? Human face, boot, stamping, forever. It's how things are. Changing one thing won't change everything else.

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Nitrous2O

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#6 Nitrous2O
Member since 2004 • 1813 Posts

How many people actually need more than three simultaneous installations?fatshodan

I don't think it's the simultaneous installs that are being complained about. Btw - I actually find some merit in that regard, games that support COOP potentially for example? Nice. This is probably why I'm not complaining that much, but I totally understand why other people are.

Anyway, those are 3 lifetime activations per copy of Mass Effect***. Activations are not revoked or returned ala BioShock (via an uninstall or revoke tool), these are even tighter restrictions than under BioShock.

I'd have to agree though, without question there's a segment of the gaming population where this DRM will have little to no adverse affect, it will go unnoticed.

***you can plead your case to customer support for more, there is no guarantee you will get them though, they are evaluated on a case-by-case basis with unknown evaluation conditions

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solid_mario

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#7 solid_mario
Member since 2005 • 3144 Posts
[QUOTE="Royas"]

Way to ignore your fans, BioEA!

fatshodan

They did compromise a little - and on the far more important point.

People kicked up a big stink about BioShock having a similar system, but honestly, who's it going to affect? How many people actually need more than three simultaneous installations? There was that one reviewer guy, but reviewers =/= the general gaming public. Their needs are exceptional and their needs don't represent those of the average gamer. This is not going to be a big deal for most people. They're just making it a big deal.

Don't get me wrong, I know that anti-piracy measures alwaysand only hurt the legitimate consumers, but honestly, how many people is this really going to inconvenience? Truly inconvenience? Remember that PC gaming is already the place to go for random screw ups. I saw a review of Assassin's Creed where the guy had to make his own (technically illegal) copy of the game because he couldn't even install it, just because the anti-piracy in place screwed with both his DVD drives. There's already a ton of problems in pretty much all PC games that spoils the experience for a minority.

The key point being minority because, again, this isn't going to inconvenience the typical gamer. Most will install, play and uninstall without even knowint it was there.

As for being treated like a criminal, why does it really matter? All companies treat their customers and employees like insects, because that's all we are. Just because they're drawing attention to it doesn't mean it wasn't already happening. Criminal/insect... what's the difference? Human face, boot, stamping, forever. It's how things are. Changing one thing won't change everything else.

Was he an anti social fat man? :P
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Xxgood-timesXx

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#8 Xxgood-timesXx
Member since 2008 • 726 Posts
meh, stop complaining about this secure rom software, just cause people want to pirate ME (only because its a single player game and this is ussually what happens to them for ex: The witcher,bioshock,crysis...and the endless list) I see no problem in a company trying to maintain its $$$ revenue, people should stop complaining about this and just enjoy this treat that is to come.
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deactivated-5d78b683675c5

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#9 deactivated-5d78b683675c5
Member since 2007 • 3161 Posts

I see no problem with a dev trying to protect their games from being pirated(even if it's doomed to fail). Plus, didn't they take out the worst of it, 10 day re-authentication or whatever it was. I preordered mines from amazon already, worst case scenario would be that it wont play at all on my pc, if that happens i'll be dissapointed.

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Royas

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#10 Royas
Member since 2002 • 1448 Posts

I see no problem with a dev trying to protect their games from being pirated(even if it's doomed to fail). Plus, didn't they take out the worst of it, 10 day re-authentication or whatever it was. I preordered mines from amazon already, worst case scenario would be that it wont play at all on my pc, if that happens i'll be disappointed.

dahwnpapaya

They did take out the 10 day checks, yes. Of course, many think that was added in originally as ballast, something they could dump to make it look like they were listening. Personally, I find the 3 LIFETIME activations to be just as objectionable, so getting rid of the 10 day checks does nothing in my book. I don't see how limiting the number of activations will prevent or even lessen piracy. Even money says it will increase piracy as otherwise law abiding gamers download the less limited cracked version. Why in the hell would you buy a game with restrictions when you can get a version without restrictions for free? Not only is it cheaper, it's the better product. You'd be insane not to.

Me, I'm just not going to be playing ME at all. If EA has the same restrictions on Spore and the Sims 3, I won't be playing them, either. If they drop the installation restrictions, I might pick up ME later on after a price drop or two, I certainly won't be paying AAA prices for what is now a B game.

Oh, and if it won't play on your PC at all, are you planning to try to get your money back? Or just eat the loss? To me, that's more money than I'm willing to lose.

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Royas

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#11 Royas
Member since 2002 • 1448 Posts

As a side note, don't bother going to the BioEA forums for discussion on this. Their hatchetman, Chris Priestly, has banished all MEPC DRM discussion from the MEPC forums. They are locking ALL threads and deleting messages left and right. They are supposedly allowing the discussion in the off topic forum only. No doubt because nobody takes anything in off topid forums seriously, they figure nobody will see it. Bastards.

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deactivated-5d78b683675c5

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#12 deactivated-5d78b683675c5
Member since 2007 • 3161 Posts

Why would I but it? Because it's a game that i've been wanting to play since it's release on the 360. Why would I buy it instead of pirating? Well, to support the devs that make the games I like to play.

If it doesn't play at all, of course i'll try and get my money back, although I doubt it'll happen. And if I cant get refunded then maybe i'll take the same stance as you, of course I wont be buying games that wont even work for me.

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fatshodan

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#13 fatshodan
Member since 2008 • 2886 Posts

[QUOTE="fatshodan"]How many people actually need more than three simultaneous installations?Nitrous2O

Anyway, those are 3 lifetime activations per copy of Mass Effect

Really? Wow. I retract most of my post, then. I assume they were going for the BioShock strategy. Three lifetime installs is ridiculous and doesn't make a bit of sense. I install and uninstall games all the time.

Still, I suppose a photo of your disc and box in front of your monitor on which a reply from their customer service is displayed is hard to argue with. They should take no issue restoring installations with that kind of evidence. But that is way out there, man. Way, way out there.

I'm just glad I'm not a BioWare fan. Don't really plan to buy ME.

Was he an anti social fat man?solid_mario

Actually, yes. He and I are close friends. Which may explain why we like the same games, films and music. And why we have similar writing styIes.

But we are abso-defi-lutely-nately two entirely different people.

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the_ChEeSe_mAn2

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#14 the_ChEeSe_mAn2
Member since 2003 • 8463 Posts
I dont get one thing. If you have 3 lifetime installs....that means you can install the game on 3 diff pc's and thats it? Cause I was hoping that if you install it on 1 and only 1 pc, and uninstall it later, the 3 lifetime installs would still be intact.
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deactivated-5d78b683675c5

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#15 deactivated-5d78b683675c5
Member since 2007 • 3161 Posts
Actually, I believe it's 3 installs, after those 3 you have to contact customer support to reactivate your cd key. It would be ridiculous if they didn't.
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the_ChEeSe_mAn2

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#16 the_ChEeSe_mAn2
Member since 2003 • 8463 Posts
So after 3 installs I have to actually spend time to contact the customer support just to play it? Eff that, I'd rather just crack it once after buying and preserve my 3 installs until worse times....I hope it doesnt come to that.
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Royas

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#17 Royas
Member since 2002 • 1448 Posts
[QUOTE="Nitrous2O"]

[QUOTE="fatshodan"]How many people actually need more than three simultaneous installations?fatshodan

Anyway, those are 3 lifetime activations per copy of Mass Effect

Really? Wow. I retract most of my post, then. I assume they were going for the BioShock strategy. Three lifetime installs is ridiculous and doesn't make a bit of sense. I install and uninstall games all the time.

Still, I suppose a photo of your disc and box in front of your monitor on which a reply from their customer service is displayed is hard to argue with. They should take no issue restoring installations with that kind of evidence. But that is way out there, man. Way, way out there.

I'm just glad I'm not a BioWare fan. Don't really plan to buy ME.

To be fair to BioEA (hard for me to do right now), they did say that you can install and uninstall it from the same computer (defined by a hardware signature) as often as you like. If you change the hardware a lot, such as a major upgrade, you'd have to use another activations. I'm less clear on what would happen if you reformat your PC, whether that would use a new activation or not. I am clear on their claim that if you install and activate it on PC#1, you can then uninstall it, install it later (assuming no major hardware changes) and it will use the same activation. So it's not three lifetime installations, it's three lifetime activations. If you need more, you have to call/email EA customer (non)support and ask them for more. According to sock puppet Priestly, requests for more activations will be decided on a case-by-case basis. No information has been given on what proof you'll need to supply, or what criteria will be used to decide each case.

Priestly did say that if BioEA ever shut down the activation servers, they'd release a patch that would remove the activation portion of the DRM. I hope he realizes that in many states, that statement as an official representative of the company, could be considered a legally binding contract.

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Nitrous2O

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#18 Nitrous2O
Member since 2004 • 1813 Posts

I install and uninstall games all the timefatshodan

If it were on the same machine you'd be OK (if you wuz to be a Bioware fan to begin with ;)). Just don't upgrade too many components or build new machines very often, that will use activations. Maybe they'll patch out the DRM in a few years.

edit: Royas has it explained^

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Teh_Dana

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#20 Teh_Dana
Member since 2008 • 84 Posts

meh, stop complaining about this secure rom software, just cause people want to pirate ME (only because its a single player game and this is ussually what happens to them for ex: The witcher,bioshock,crysis...and the endless list) I see no problem in a company trying to maintain its $$$ revenue, people should stop complaining about this and just enjoy this treat that is to come.Xxgood-timesXx

You know what the problem is ? People who crack games will get rid of that DRM without problems.

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Noldorin2646

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#21 Noldorin2646
Member since 2007 • 641 Posts

Actually, yes. He and I are close friends. Which may explain why we like the same games, films and music. And why we have similar writing styIes.

But we are abso-defi-lutely-nately two entirely different people.

fatshodan

Sure, We'll take your word for it. ;)

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Makari

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#22 Makari
Member since 2003 • 15250 Posts

Bioware is just another cog in the corporate machine now, which was to be expected really. I expect them to churn out Mass Effect 2009, 2010, 2011, etc.RobertBowen

Normally you're intelligent about everything and that's awesome, but that last sentence is just stupid. As one of the supposedly informed customers, where have they been recently doing this where it's not warranted, as opposed to having stopped doing it in the last few years? I mean seriously, welcome to 2005 or something. Doing the slightest bit of research or simply paying attention for the last few years shows stuff like that to be about the opposite, so where do they come from in a non-System Wars context?
I won't be touching another Bioware product, nor anything with EA on the label. That goes for any other developer that uses these kinds of DRM measures.RobertBowen
If it really does become an issue for a group of a customers other than a group that make themselves appear to be rabid fanboys looking for an excuse to hate the company (see above comment), it'll be pulled. Boycotting and saying exactly why is about the best thing you can do. The one thing they're doing is listening, besides the fact that they're actually bouncing all these plans off the community BEFORE a game is released, as opposed to simply releasing and letting people notice after the fact as nearly every other publisher has done so far. But it's okay when the other guys do it, because they're not EA!
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BlackAlpha666

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#23 BlackAlpha666
Member since 2005 • 2614 Posts
[QUOTE="RobertBowen"]

Bioware is just another cog in the corporate machine now, which was to be expected really. I expect them to churn out Mass Effect 2009, 2010, 2011, etc.Makari

Normally you're intelligent about everything and that's awesome, but that last sentence is just stupid. As one of the supposedly informed customers, where have they been recently doing this where it's not warranted, as opposed to having stopped doing it in the last few years? I mean seriously, welcome to 2005 or something. Doing the slightest bit of research or simply paying attention for the last few years shows stuff like that to be about the opposite, so where do they come from in a non-System Wars context?
I won't be touching another Bioware product, nor anything with EA on the label. That goes for any other developer that uses these kinds of DRM measures.RobertBowen
If it really does become an issue for a group of a customers other than a group that make themselves appear to be rabid fanboys looking for an excuse to hate the company (see above comment), it'll be pulled. Boycotting and saying exactly why is about the best thing you can do. The one thing they're doing is listening, besides the fact that they're actually bouncing all these plans off the community BEFORE a game is released, as opposed to simply releasing and letting people notice after the fact as nearly every other publisher has done so far. But it's okay when the other guys do it, because they're not EA!

They are listening? If you REALLY think so, then please explain to us why they decided to keep the DRM. Also, explain to us why they got rid of the 10 day authentication so quickly when there were only maybe 100 people complaining against it. But when there are around 300 people still complaining after the changes they made, they decide not to do anything about it. Why did the EA employees keep telling people that there was nothing to worry about and that their arguments were wrong? A few times the EA employees even joked about the people that were complaining. And explain to us why they are locking all the DRM topics and telling people to go to the offtopic section.

How can you say that they are listening when it's so obvious that they are not?

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Makari

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#24 Makari
Member since 2003 • 15250 Posts
[QUOTE="BlackAlpha666"]They are listening? If you REALLY think so, then please explain to us why they decided to keep the DRM. Also, explain to us why they got rid of the 10 day authentication so quickly when there were only maybe 100 people complaining against it. But when there are around 300 people still complaining after the changes they made, they decide not to do anything about it. Why did the EA employees keep telling people that there was nothing to worry about and that their arguments were wrong? A few times the EA employees even joked about the people that were complaining. And explain to us why they are locking all the DRM topics and telling people to go to the offtopic section. How can you say that they are listening when it's so obvious that they are not?

Because there were a LOT more than 100 people complaining early on about the 10 day authentication, and if you read back that was the primary axis of the complaints. People didn't, as a whole, stop to notice the activations as being as big of a problem until after the other thing was removed. And as has been noted in the same mega-thread for the issue in this forum where you spent a lot of time posting (*cough* so you should know this unless you're trying to straw man *cough*), most people are placated by the removal of the 10-day phone home and the leaving in of the authentication limit. There are multiple posts in the other thread complaining about how it seems most people are going to be happy with what they did. Surprise, it happened, and now you're trying to imply that no, more people were actually unhappy about this instead all along? I've spent enough time in System Wars here to know when people are leaving out details to make something sound a certain way. It's easy to say they're listening, because they addressed some of the problems and gave a reason why in terms of what people complained about. They're not willing to budge on the other thing (yet, I still think they would). It's easy to say they're listening because they're actually being open about that stuff instead of quietly inserting it into their games like 2K and THQ and Ubisoft and Bioware have done in the past - and are people still mad at those groups for doing it without talking about it first today? Talking about it? Nope. 99% of you simply forgot after 6 months. Again, all the publishers follow ALL major forums, and it gives them all a very good idea how the 'customer base' thinks, and it doesn't paint a very flattering picture. The lesson they're going to learn from this - again - is that it's better to lie and/or not talk about it or be open about it, because people are much happier in the long run when they aren't told ahead of time about something they might not want to hear. These same customers would apparently rather deal with a company that simply ignores them to one that DOES respond to say 'no.' You wonder why PC hardware companies like Asus went far out of their way to avoid having official forums or official customer reps? I'd spoken to them for the last.. nearly a decade about having more customer presence, an official forum, a place for someone to speak with an Asus rep via some channel other than anonymous support emails. They'd always given an emphatic no. And this is precisely why. Companies notice that certain communities are like an angry bee's nest where even acknowledging it can prove to be painful, and it's often better to silently ignore it. A bit of a rant, but I've worked on both sides of the fence, and seeing people willingly close their eyes (or just pretend to?) to place themselves on a pedestal just gets irritating. If you'd like to put up a counter-argument to show how they're not 'listening' (as opposed to just 'not doing what you want,' very important difference), feel free, but I know you're going to have a hard time of it. Like I said, a simple boycott and explanation why is perfect. Telling other people about your boycott and explanation while convincing them to do the same is even better. Trying to be dishonest and twist the truth about it to make it seem even worse simply hurts the cause in the long run.
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BlackAlpha666

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#25 BlackAlpha666
Member since 2005 • 2614 Posts

[QUOTE="BlackAlpha666"]They are listening? If you REALLY think so, then please explain to us why they decided to keep the DRM. Also, explain to us why they got rid of the 10 day authentication so quickly when there were only maybe 100 people complaining against it. But when there are around 300 people still complaining after the changes they made, they decide not to do anything about it. Why did the EA employees keep telling people that there was nothing to worry about and that their arguments were wrong? A few times the EA employees even joked about the people that were complaining. And explain to us why they are locking all the DRM topics and telling people to go to the offtopic section. How can you say that they are listening when it's so obvious that they are not?Makari
Because there were a LOT more than 100 people complaining early on about the 10 day authentication, and if you read back that was the primary axis of the complaints. People didn't, as a whole, stop to notice the activations as being as big of a problem until after the other thing was removed. And as has been noted in the same mega-thread for the issue in this forum where you spent a lot of time posting (*cough* so you should know this unless you're trying to straw man *cough*), most people are placated by the removal of the 10-day phone home and the leaving in of the authentication limit. There are multiple posts in the other thread complaining about how it seems most people are going to be happy with what they did. Surprise, it happened, and now you're trying to imply that no, more people were actually unhappy about this instead all along? I've spent enough time in System Wars here to know when people are leaving out details to make something sound a certain way. It's easy to say they're listening, because they addressed some of the problems and gave a reason why in terms of what people complained about. They're not willing to budge on the other thing (yet, I still think they would). It's easy to say they're listening because they're actually being open about that stuff instead of quietly inserting it into their games like 2K and THQ and Ubisoft and Bioware have done in the past - and are people still mad at those groups for doing it without talking about it first today? Talking about it? Nope. 99% of you simply forgot after 6 months. Again, all the publishers follow ALL major forums, and it gives them all a very good idea how the 'customer base' thinks, and it doesn't paint a very flattering picture. The lesson they're going to learn from this - again - is that it's better to lie and/or not talk about it or be open about it, because people are much happier in the long run when they aren't told ahead of time about something they might not want to hear. These same customers would apparently rather deal with a company that simply ignores them to one that DOES respond to say 'no.' You wonder why PC hardware companies like Asus went far out of their way to avoid having official forums or official customer reps? I'd spoken to them for the last.. nearly a decade about having more customer presence, an official forum, a place for someone to speak with an Asus rep via some channel other than anonymous support emails. They'd always given an emphatic no. And this is precisely why. Companies notice that certain communities are like an angry bee's nest where even acknowledging it can prove to be painful, and it's often better to silently ignore it. A bit of a rant, but I've worked on both sides of the fence, and seeing people willingly close their eyes (or just pretend to?) to place themselves on a pedestal just gets irritating. If you'd like to put up a counter-argument to show how they're not 'listening' (as opposed to just 'not doing what you want,' very important difference), feel free, but I know you're going to have a hard time of it. Like I said, a simple boycott and explanation why is perfect. Telling other people about your boycott and explanation while convincing them to do the same is even better. Trying to be dishonest and twist the truth about it to make it seem even worse simply hurts the cause in the long run.

I appreciate the long and detailed reply you gave me but we will never agree with each other so I'll just cut it short and then I'll leave it at that.

EA didn't listen but why did the Russian publisher listen? There is no activation limit or internet required for the Russian version, published by the Russian publisher. Personally I think that you just fail to understand that there are companies out there that actually do respect their customers. If you don't agree with it, feel free to ignore it because we will never agree with each other anyway.

PS: I left some links in the other topic to show you that the game is actually published by a Russian publisher in eastern Europe and not by EA.

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Drosa

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#26 Drosa
Member since 2004 • 3136 Posts

Since this DRM scheme includes Spore it is more likely that it was EA who made this descision and not Bioware. They do deserve so credit. EA actually told us about it before the release of the game and they have fairly low reputation in the community. Valve is supposed to the PC gamers best friend and they couldn't be bothered to tell anyone but their hard core fans about their plans for Half-life 2 and Steam.

A big part of why they don't appear to be listening to our complaints that I see is because of the past behavior of the PC gaming community. We write patches for games that are less then six months old. We made Bioshock a best seller despite similar copy protection. We happily thanked Valve for Half-life 2 even after all the flaming hoops of %#@$ we had to jump through to get it to run. These are just three examples. Within a month most people complaining will be singing the praises of the game.

Companies will not replease a patch to remove the DRM because they gain nothing from it. We were promised one for Bioshock after the sales dies off and it still has not happened.

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deactivated-5d78b683675c5

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#27 deactivated-5d78b683675c5
Member since 2007 • 3161 Posts

I appreciate the long and detailed reply you gave me but we will never agree with each other so I'll just cut it short and then I'll leave it at that.

EA didn't listen but why did the Russian publisher listen? There is no activation limit or internet required for the Russian version, published by the Russian publisher. Personally I think that you just fail to understand that there are companies out there that actually do respect their customers. If you don't agree with it, feel free to ignore it because we will never agree with each other anyway.

PS: I left some links in the other topic to show you that the game is actually published by a Russian publisher in eastern Europe and not by EA.

BlackAlpha666

I thought the Russian version never had the activation limit to begin with. Also, are piracy laws in Russia the same as the US?

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BlackAlpha666

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#28 BlackAlpha666
Member since 2005 • 2614 Posts
[QUOTE="BlackAlpha666"]

I appreciate the long and detailed reply you gave me but we will never agree with each other so I'll just cut it short and then I'll leave it at that.

EA didn't listen but why did the Russian publisher listen? There is no activation limit or internet required for the Russian version, published by the Russian publisher. Personally I think that you just fail to understand that there are companies out there that actually do respect their customers. If you don't agree with it, feel free to ignore it because we will never agree with each other anyway.

PS: I left some links in the other topic to show you that the game is actually published by a Russian publisher in eastern Europe and not by EA.

dahwnpapaya

I thought the Russian version never had the activation limit to begin with. Also, are piracy laws in Russia the same as the US?

Well, like I said before. I can't read Russian so I haven't been following the Russian community that much. But people from the Russian community have said that they had protested against it, just like we did and then the Russian publisher made an announcement that as a response to the protest they decided that there would be no activation limit and no need for internet. It sounds a bit vaque but even if it was like that from the beginning, then that's even better because it means that the company didn't try to screw their customers.

Here's a link I've just found. Scroll down to the bottom.

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Makari

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#29 Makari
Member since 2003 • 15250 Posts
[QUOTE="dahwnpapaya"][QUOTE="BlackAlpha666"]

I appreciate the long and detailed reply you gave me but we will never agree with each other so I'll just cut it short and then I'll leave it at that.

EA didn't listen but why did the Russian publisher listen? There is no activation limit or internet required for the Russian version, published by the Russian publisher. Personally I think that you just fail to understand that there are companies out there that actually do respect their customers. If you don't agree with it, feel free to ignore it because we will never agree with each other anyway.

PS: I left some links in the other topic to show you that the game is actually published by a Russian publisher in eastern Europe and not by EA.

BlackAlpha666

I thought the Russian version never had the activation limit to begin with. Also, are piracy laws in Russia the same as the US?

Well, like I said before. I can't read Russian so I haven't been following the Russian community that much. But people from the Russian community have said that they had protested against it, just like we did and then the Russian publisher made an announcement that as a response to the protest they decided that there would be no activation limit and no need for internet. It sounds a bit vaque but even if it was like that from the beginning, then that's even better because it means that the company didn't try to screw their customers.

Here's a link I've just found. Scroll down to the bottom.

Yeah, it's just fishy as hell, which is part of why I'm so surprised and blindsided by it. Based on the following: [quote="edit- put into quote for readability lol"]- EA already has a publishing network of their own in place for the area, ie major games and even C&C recently; one of the company's objectives was in successfully launching in multiple languages and regions at once - Russia's a complete and total hotbed of PC piracy, one of the worst from a publisher's viewpoint - With no activations, no internet connections and no phone home checks, that's leaving Mass Effect in Russia with -zero- copy protection - Given that Bioware stated the patches will phone home, that means Russia's patches will also somehow be different from the rest - They were somehow able to convince Bioware + EA to let them do this just for Russia, while no amount of debate or protest could pull off the same feat anywhere else on the planet with the same EA that quietly let Russia do it with much less of a fight - 1C as a publisher is one of the few that was still using Starforce most recently... it's not exactly in their past to be anti-DRM for the people

With all of that... it's possible and the evidence even seems to indicate that this is what's happening, but the odds were so stacked against it I'm wondering HOW the hell that managed to happen if it's true. It reminds me of the stuff with The Witcher's 'censorship,' where the only change was the nipples were covered... but people heard 'censorship' and went bonkers. The European side didn't mind the extra publicity, and simply kept their mouth shut as to exactly what wasn't censored as they watched us spend extra to import to see nipples in a 30-hour RPG. I'm definitely wrong about something right now - though everything as it sounds right now doesn't add up, and it's not in 1C/snowball's interest to screw their free publicity/goodwill up to clarify, since by the time the other shoe drops nobody will be paying attention.
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Lonelynight

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#30 Lonelynight
Member since 2006 • 30051 Posts
Meh don't care, people will probably find away around it somehow
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RobertBowen

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#31 RobertBowen
Member since 2003 • 4094 Posts

[QUOTE="RobertBowen"]

Bioware is just another cog in the corporate machine now, which was to be expected really. I expect them to churn out Mass Effect 2009, 2010, 2011, etc.

Makari

Normally you're intelligent about everything and that's awesome, but that last sentence is just stupid. As one of the supposedly informed customers, where have they been recently doing this where it's not warranted, as opposed to having stopped doing it in the last few years? I mean seriously, welcome to 2005 or something. Doing the slightest bit of research or simply paying attention for the last few years shows stuff like that to be about the opposite, so where do they come from in a non-System Wars context?

You're right, that last sentence is stupid. That's what happens when I make a post while I'm dog tired and angry, and don't stop to think (can't even blame alcohol because I don't drink). It happens to us all, now and then. I'm not infallible. I'm only human, and I make mistakes just like the next man.

You're also right that the game industry has been moving in this kind of direction for a few years, and there are lots of sequels because they tend to sell well. I'm as guilty as the next man for wanting sequels to certain games, so yeah, it was an assinine comment to make. I guess I was just ticked off that one of my favourite developers seems to be embracing something I disagree with. They're entitled to do what they want, if they think it will help them as a business. Personally I think it will do the opposite, so it saddens me.

[quote="RobertBowen"]

I won't be touching another Bioware product, nor anything with EA on the label. That goes for any other developer that uses these kinds of DRM measures.

Makari

If it really does become an issue for a group of a customers other than a group that make themselves appear to be rabid fanboys looking for an excuse to hate the company (see above comment), it'll be pulled. Boycotting and saying exactly why is about the best thing you can do. The one thing they're doing is listening, besides the fact that they're actually bouncing all these plans off the community BEFORE a game is released, as opposed to simply releasing and letting people notice after the fact as nearly every other publisher has done so far. But it's okay when the other guys do it, because they're not EA!

*checks for foaming at the mouth*

No, I'm not rabid yet. Nor am I a fanboy, which I would define as someone who will defend the actions of any developer/publisher/manufacturer to ridiculous extremes. I've never done that and don't plan to in the future. I may trust some developers more than others, but I don't view any of them as being infallible, or all of their games as being 'mana from heaven'. So in those terms, I think your comment was a little misguided.

I'm not looking for an excuse to hate a company either. Hate is such a strong word, and I don't hate anyone. I don't hate anyone who works for Bioware or EA, because I don't know any of them personally. However, I do dislike certain practices, and DRM is one of those. It's not my intention to become some fanatical crusader about it, decrying everyone who uses it from the highest pinnacle. Everyone is free to make up their own mind about it. I'm not going to try and force someone to take a different stance, that's up to them to decide. The only thing I've tried to do in the thread I started, and elsewhere, is to ensure that everyone at least has the bare facts in front of them. And I felt that was worthwhile, because in my view some people really didn't understand the implications of what DRM would mean. So if my posts (and those of others) have helped people to make more informed decisions, that's great. If others choose to disagree, that's great as well, and good luck to those people in the future with their gaming hobby.

Bioware does deserve a lot of credit for allowing people to vent their frustrations and voice their opinions about the DRM. I've never said (and never tried to implicate) they didn't deserve that credit. Lots of other developers woulnd't have done that, so they are to be applauded for their openness. However, it is one thing to bounce ideas off other people, and something else to give people a false sense of hope. A lot of people (including me) believed that this kind of openness might eventually lead to further revision of the DRM scheme being implemented. Now we know that really it wasn't the case. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I do believe the 10 day activation limit was the 'high price' intended to be dropped, just like haggling in the market. Therefore I assumed (wrongly) that perhaps the 3 acitvation limit was on the table for negotiation. It's clear from recent posts and actions that it was never going to change. So maybe they were misleading us, or we allowed ourselves to be mislead by our own expectations based on the reputation of the company.

I also have no doubt that Mass Effect PC is a great game, otherwise I would not have been looking forward to playing it. However, I do believe that the quality of their future products will suffer as a result of their relationship with EA, based on the things I've seen EA do in the past. I know that EA is under new management, and from what they've said they are trying to change their business model. Nevertheless, when they bring forward restrictive DRM and try to tell everyone it's a good thing, I have to wonder exactly how much has really changed.

When it comes to other publishers pulling this DRM stunt (without informing people), that's not okay either, and I've never said that it was. I bought Bioshock along with everyone else, and didn't know a thing about the activation limits. So I'm just as annoyed with 2K for dropping that little gem on everyone, and if their future games include similar activation schemes I will not be purchasing those either. That's my choice. Everyone else has to make up their own minds.

As I've said before, I was unhappy about the online activation requirement for Half-Life 2, because I knew what the implications would be back then. By requiring online activation tied to a specific account, that bascially denies a lot of people from disposing of a game they might not like. It turns a game from being a disposable product into a 'game for life'. I didn't agree with that at the time, and still don't. However, I'm guilty again of one of the fundamental aspects of human nature, and as it would not affect me that much (because I collect games and don't usually get rid of them), I gritted my teeth and went ahead to buy HL2 and the episodes, and later a couple of other games that were on offer and quite cheap.

Nevertheless, I won't buy any other major titles through Steam, and still have reservations about the service. Steam has many benefits, but it also has its downsides, and they don't sit well with me. It comes down to how much I am willing to take as an individual before I say 'no'. Everyone has their own ideas about what they are willing to accept before they see something as crossing over their line. As someone who disagrees with piracy, I've been willing to go along with developers and publishers with a variety of ideas in the past in the hopes it would go some way to combatting piracy. The evidence now suggests those schemes have never really worked, and it's all been in vain.

Now the publishers are moving 'full steam ahead' into the next phase, by restricting useage and impinging on consumer right further (imo), and I'm no longer willing to go along with them. I've drawn my line, and won't cross it, so I'll not be buying this or future games from those companies. That is what I stated in my previous post, and that has not changed.

As I've said before, good luck to everyone else who does buy the game. I hope you don't run into any problems or issues, and have a great experience.

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flclempire

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#32 flclempire
Member since 2004 • 4914 Posts
Dunno why anyone would pay to play a game this shallow anyways.
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Herrick

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#33 Herrick
Member since 2004 • 4552 Posts

I hardly ever play a game more than once, but I do realize that people like to play through games they love multiple times & keep those games for years...so this three limit activation is quite unfair to them. I wonder how EA will determine whether or not one is "worthy" enough to install this game a fourth time on an updated PC or something.

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Kez1984

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#34 Kez1984
Member since 2007 • 4548 Posts

I guess I'll order it.

Bioware tend to make games that really should be PAID for.

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mickymanga

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#36 mickymanga
Member since 2007 • 31 Posts

So after 3 installs I have to actually spend time to contact the customer support just to play it? Eff that, I'd rather just crack it once after buying and preserve my 3 installs until worse times....I hope it doesnt come to that.the_ChEeSe_mAn2
Nah, as far as I understood, you can un-install and re-install ME as many times as you want on the same PC you activated ME.

However, if you format your HD, your install is lost. Same goes, if you install on different PC's. You will use up an install every time up to three times.

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Lilgunney612

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#37 Lilgunney612
Member since 2005 • 1878 Posts

Way to ignore your fans, BioEA! I really appreciate being treated so well by corporate drones.

Royas

wtf? bioware got rid of the 10-day check up because of complaining fans, Its EA that is forcing this on them. ALL new EA titles will have the system, not bioware's fault at all. Besides, they have already invested thousands of dollars into the system and i dont think they are going to just get rid of it because some people **** about it on some forums. I dont like it any more than you do, but bioware is trying their best and all they get is people like you blaming them for something their not responsible for.

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Sinotek

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#38 Sinotek
Member since 2008 • 156 Posts

Dunno why anyone would pay to play a game this shallow anyways.flclempire

Shallow? Did you even bothered playing it? Shallow...

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ElectricNZ

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#39 ElectricNZ
Member since 2007 • 2457 Posts
[QUOTE="Nitrous2O"]

[QUOTE="fatshodan"]How many people actually need more than three simultaneous installations?fatshodan

Anyway, those are 3 lifetime activations per copy of Mass Effect

Really? Wow. I retract most of my post, then. I assume they were going for the BioShock strategy. Three lifetime installs is ridiculous and doesn't make a bit of sense. I install and uninstall games all the time.

Still, I suppose a photo of your disc and box in front of your monitor on which a reply from their customer service is displayed is hard to argue with. They should take no issue restoring installations with that kind of evidence. But that is way out there, man. Way, way out there.

I'm just glad I'm not a BioWare fan. Don't really plan to buy ME.

Was he an anti social fat man?solid_mario

Actually, yes. He and I are close friends. Which may explain why we like the same games, films and music. And why we have similar writing styIes.

But we are abso-defi-lutely-nately two entirely different people.

I like his writing style more :

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hamidious

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#40 hamidious
Member since 2007 • 1537 Posts
Honestly, I don't care, I don't think it's a big deal for me. Not to say you shouldn't be disappointed, but should it be such a huge issue to you?
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Funkyhamster

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#41 Funkyhamster
Member since 2005 • 17366 Posts
Bah... I'll stick to playing my DRM-free copy of Neverwinter Nights, thank you very much... PC games just aren't the same anymore.
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Qixote

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#42 Qixote
Member since 2002 • 10843 Posts
I'm confused. How does DRM prevent piracy? Someone will crack the DRM as always. Owners of the genuine game will get punished for buying a legit copy.
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Royas

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#43 Royas
Member since 2002 • 1448 Posts
[QUOTE="Royas"]

Way to ignore your fans, BioEA! I really appreciate being treated so well by corporate drones.

Lilgunney612

wtf? bioware got rid of the 10-day check up because of complaining fans, Its EA that is forcing this on them. ALL new EA titles will have the system, not bioware's fault at all. Besides, they have already invested thousands of dollars into the system and i dont think they are going to just get rid of it because some people **** about it on some forums. I dont like it any more than you do, but bioware is trying their best and all they get is people like you blaming them for something their not responsible for.

Perhaps you missed the press announcements indicating that EA owns Bioware. Bioware is now nothing but a brand name, a friendly face EA can put on its games for a while before it absorbs the formerly great studio into its corporate structure. It's done the same thing with every other studio it buys, after all. In fact, Dr. Ray Muzyka is officially a vice-president at EA. I really wish peoplw would get off the nostalgia train: There is no more Bioware, there is only EA.

So, Bioware didn't get rid of the 10 day check, EA did. That was nothing more than a bargaining ploy, anyway. They added that in so they would have something to ditch to make themselves look good. What amazes me is how many people fell for it. I really thought the PC gaming community was smarter than that.

EA is in charge, nothing about Bioware is the same as it used to be. If Bioware was still an independent studio, I'm sure that this DRM wouldn't exist, but they aren't. So, having established that Bioware no longer really exists, the brand name deserves the exact same criticisms that EA would receive. The only reason EA even keeps the name is so they can trade on the last 10+ years of goodwill Bioware earned. They'll run that goodwill into the ground and when there's nothing left, the name will disappear, just like Origin, Bullfrog, Westwood, DICE and Maxis. I wish it weren't that way, but it is.

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Makari

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#44 Makari
Member since 2003 • 15250 Posts
EA is in charge, nothing about Bioware is the same as it used to be. If Bioware was still an independent studio, I'm sure that this DRM wouldn't exist, but they aren't. So, having established that Bioware no longer really exists, the brand name deserves the exact same criticisms that EA would receive. The only reason EA even keeps the name is so they can trade on the last 10+ years of goodwill Bioware earned. They'll run that goodwill into the ground and when there's nothing left, the name will disappear, just like Origin, Bullfrog, Westwood, DICE and Maxis. I wish it weren't that way, but it is.Royas
Maybe you're still stuck back in 2000 or so, but Bioware(/Obsidian) has traditionally been using SecuROM (KOTOR, KOTOR2, Jade Empire, NWN2) for the last few generations of their PC games. This is just the newest version of SecuROM. Also, as two of the most recent examples, how did DICE and Maxis disappear? It's pretty well-known within the industry that EA basically funds DICE and leaves them to do their own thing, and is used as an example of a good relationship. Ditto for Criterion. With Maxis, Will Wright still has his own personal studio out in Emeryville where they've been making Spore for the last.. how many years now, almost a decade? I dunno, maybe you should educate yourself on what you're talking about before you complain about it and sound a bit foolish.
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Makari

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#45 Makari
Member since 2003 • 15250 Posts
As I've said before, good luck to everyone else who does buy the game. I hope you don't run into any problems or issues, and have a great experience.RobertBowen
Gah, that's a lot. :D The sequel comment was made.. hm. If you can get your hands on the last few months of Game Developer magazine, they have a yearly publisher/developer survey where they basically rank each of the companies and give them an abstract review score. The last two years in there, EA as a publisher has ranked very high (2nd or 3rd iirc) due to, in large part, their lack of a reliance on sequels. They had more new IPs coming out than any of their competition at the 'big side' of those kinds of companies, especially Activision and Ubisoft and the like. I remember that one for sure two years ago because it surprised me to actually see in print. Do people here notice? No. It's always kind of funny.. I like to post to correct misconceptions (spent a lot of time on PCHW haha), but anything related to PC gaming is a free fountain of people that don't really know what's going on, largely because nobody releases the information they do have. The DRM stuff... admittedly, yeah, I've given up on it. I'm pretty sure we either a) put up with a certain level of it, or b) stop getting big-budget PC games. The industry's moving in that direction, the data we see and the opinions of the people actually making all the games are all in agreement on that direction, so trying to protest and saying 'well your game sucked so I wouldn't have paid anyway' seems like it'll just make them shrug their shoulders and focus on consoles - see Bioware. See Bullfrog -> Lionhead. See Looking Glass Studios -> Irrational Games -> 2K Boston. Those companies used to be some of the titans of PC gaming alongside the likes of Blizzard or Valve today, and now they all focus on the console games first. Whatever the traditional paradigm has been for non-casual PC gaming, we've apparently been doing something very wrong. So yeah, I've sort of accepted game DRM as a fact of life, moreso because it HAS been for this entire decade so far, and most didn't notice. Safedisc is a DRM system, just as has been Securom, TAGES, Laserlock, and our good friend Starforce. Other games that used DRM in the past? Diablo 2. C&C: Tiberian Sun. Shogun: Total War. System Shock 2. Baldur's Gate 2 (SecuROM 4, at that!). Fallout. They all used DRM, and generally the same solutions that people are going off about today - Safedisc and SecuROM. One notable recent exception is Oblivion - it just did a DVD-check and that's it, and people still raised hell about that on Bethesda's forums.
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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#46 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts
Waste of time and effort, it will hinder both pirates and buyers.. Pirates in the end will get the go around it like ALL DRM's, and it will cause many legimiate buyers trouble.. So in the end this DRM will most likely cost them far more money for a empty supposed figure they can never fully 100% track.
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Ps2stony

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#47 Ps2stony
Member since 2006 • 1888 Posts
Aw that's too bad. Poor pirates will be out a job. Damn developers and their "SecuROMity".
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Lilgunney612

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#48 Lilgunney612
Member since 2005 • 1878 Posts
[QUOTE="Lilgunney612"][QUOTE="Royas"]

Way to ignore your fans, BioEA! I really appreciate being treated so well by corporate drones.

Royas

wtf? bioware got rid of the 10-day check up because of complaining fans, Its EA that is forcing this on them. ALL new EA titles will have the system, not bioware's fault at all. Besides, they have already invested thousands of dollars into the system and i dont think they are going to just get rid of it because some people **** about it on some forums. I dont like it any more than you do, but bioware is trying their best and all they get is people like you blaming them for something their not responsible for.

Perhaps you missed the press announcements indicating that EA owns Bioware. Bioware is now nothing but a brand name, a friendly face EA can put on its games for a while before it absorbs the formerly great studio into its corporate structure. It's done the same thing with every other studio it buys, after all. In fact, Dr. Ray Muzyka is officially a vice-president at EA. I really wish peoplw would get off the nostalgia train: There is no more Bioware, there is only EA.

So, Bioware didn't get rid of the 10 day check, EA did. That was nothing more than a bargaining ploy, anyway. They added that in so they would have something to ditch to make themselves look good. What amazes me is how many people fell for it. I really thought the PC gaming community was smarter than that.

EA is in charge, nothing about Bioware is the same as it used to be. If Bioware was still an independent studio, I'm sure that this DRM wouldn't exist, but they aren't. So, having established that Bioware no longer really exists, the brand name deserves the exact same criticisms that EA would receive. The only reason EA even keeps the name is so they can trade on the last 10+ years of goodwill Bioware earned. They'll run that goodwill into the ground and when there's nothing left, the name will disappear, just like Origin, Bullfrog, Westwood, DICE and Maxis. I wish it weren't that way, but it is.

EA owns the rights to all future games released.. there is still a bioware, the devs, everything is still there, bioware just has to pay EA now for publishing. Didnt you hear that the new presedent of EA is not controling the companies under it anymore?

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RobertBowen

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#49 RobertBowen
Member since 2003 • 4094 Posts


Gah, that's a lot. :D The sequel comment was made.. hm. If you can get your hands on the last few months of Game Developer magazine, they have a yearly publisher/developer survey where they basically rank each of the companies and give them an abstract review score. The last two years in there, EA as a publisher has ranked very high (2nd or 3rd iirc) due to, in large part, their lack of a reliance on sequels. They had more new IPs coming out than any of their competition at the 'big side' of those kinds of companies, especially Activision and Ubisoft and the like. I remember that one for sure two years ago because it surprised me to actually see in print. Do people here notice? No. It's always kind of funny.. I like to post to correct misconceptions (spent a lot of time on PCHW haha), but anything related to PC gaming is a free fountain of people that don't really know what's going on, largely because nobody releases the information they do have.

Makari


What can I say? I haven't read a printed magazine for at least five years. I do read gaming news sites, forums here and there, and pick up information that way. Perhaps more of us posting on this forum should post interesting information we find out if it potentially affects the PC gaming community. We do that now, but probably not to the extent we should.



So yeah, I've sort of accepted game DRM as a fact of life, moreso because it HAS been for this entire decade so far, and most didn't notice. Safedisc is a DRM system, just as has been Securom, TAGES, Laserlock, and our good friend Starforce. Other games that used DRM in the past? Diablo 2. C&C: Tiberian Sun. Shogun: Total War. System Shock 2. Baldur's Gate 2 (SecuROM 4, at that!). Fallout. They all used DRM, and generally the same solutions that people are going off about today - Safedisc and SecuROM. One notable recent exception is Oblivion - it just did a DVD-check and that's it, and people still raised hell about that on Bethesda's forums.



Just to clarify my own position - when I talk about DRM I am not talking about simple copy protection methods (which have admittedly been around for some time), but about the additional 'features' of DRM such as online activations, activation limits etc.

When it comes to SecureROM and all the others, you're right, many will not have noticed. Except some did when their CD or DVD drive wouldn't read a disk properly, became confused and then discovered it was down to the copy protection system. I had to swap out a perfectly decent DVD drive a few years ago and get an alternative model just so that I could install a few games.

More recently I've had a DVD drive fail, and as it was during a data backup procedure using Nero, I'm now convinced that was down to something like SecureROM interfering. Maybe that wasn't the case, but based on past experience it seems more likely to me, especially considering my kids were having problems with the DVD drive on my old rig when trying to play another game protected by SecureROM (which I only discovered by doing research).

I wonder how many other people have had drives fail on them mysteriously or had trouble reading disks and just put it down to hardware wear and tear, when maybe that wasn't the case.

As for all the games using SecureROM, Starforce and other copy protection systems, I've already done my own research and started to compile a list of well over a hundred titles. I own quite a few of those titles, and haven't had a problem with most of them in the past. Some I have. Regardless, the fact is that I should not be having ANY problems, and would not if the copy protection software was not interfering with either hardware or software on my PC. There's never any information on the game cases about this copy protection software. Nothing in the EULA. No confirmation button to press to install it. Generally, no information whatever unless you actively go seeking it on the internet. So when I have something like UAService7.exe running in the background, which basically opens a back door to Admin rights on my PC, and no one has even told me about it - that becomes an issue for me. It only need a smart hacker to fool that program and suddenly they've gained access to parts of your system you thought were safely out of reach.

When I have to replace drives for no reason other than to become compliant with a piece of third party software I was not aware was being installed in the first place, then there is something fundamentally wrong, and I am having to absorb additional expense. The same will now be true of people on dial-up who have to pay for a call to authorise their use of a game. And when the time comes to re-activate, there is the additional expense of contacting customer support.

So for many people (I'm not saying all), the price on the cover of the game is not the only price they will be paying to use it. There are now hidden costs to go along with it. For those people, the financial costs and inconvenience will eventually outweight any benefits, and they will simply look elsewhere. Some will turn to consoles. Some will turn to piracy. The PC will lose more sales.

We are currently stuck in a vicious circle. The more DRM that is introduced to combat piracy, the more people will turn to piracy to escape DRM, or just not bother at all. In the end, I believe things are just going to get progressively worse for PC gamers. I guess we'll have to wait another ten years and see.
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Royas

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#50 Royas
Member since 2002 • 1448 Posts

[QUOTE="Royas"]EA is in charge, nothing about Bioware is the same as it used to be. If Bioware was still an independent studio, I'm sure that this DRM wouldn't exist, but they aren't. So, having established that Bioware no longer really exists, the brand name deserves the exact same criticisms that EA would receive. The only reason EA even keeps the name is so they can trade on the last 10+ years of goodwill Bioware earned. They'll run that goodwill into the ground and when there's nothing left, the name will disappear, just like Origin, Bullfrog, Westwood, DICE and Maxis. I wish it weren't that way, but it is.Makari
Maybe you're still stuck back in 2000 or so, but Bioware(/Obsidian) has traditionally been using SecuROM (KOTOR, KOTOR2, Jade Empire, NWN2) for the last few generations of their PC games. This is just the newest version of SecuROM. Also, as two of the most recent examples, how did DICE and Maxis disappear? It's pretty well-known within the industry that EA basically funds DICE and leaves them to do their own thing, and is used as an example of a good relationship. Ditto for Criterion. With Maxis, Will Wright still has his own personal studio out in Emeryville where they've been making Spore for the last.. how many years now, almost a decade? I dunno, maybe you should educate yourself on what you're talking about before you complain about it and sound a bit foolish.

All are listed in the EA entry on Wikipedia as being closed studios. Maxis in Walnut Creek was folded into the Redwood City operation in 2004. DICE Canada is listed as being acquired and closed in 2006. Criterion is listed as still being an active studio, as is DICE Sweden and Maxis in Emeryville, CA. I'm sorry, I should have been more specific about the studios, that's my bad. I'll be more careful about specific examples in the future, and engage in dramatic hyperbole less.

Can't argue about Bullfrog, Origin and Westwood, though :) Those brands are gone for sure.

Oh, and I know that Bioware has been using SecuROM for years. I don't really care about SecuROM itself, that's never given me trouble. I have quite a few games with SecuROM, that doesn't bother me. What I'm troubled by is the limited number of activations, ala Bioshock. That's a new beast even if it uses the same name, and it's not a friendly one. Three lifetime activations, no real details on how much of a hardware change you can get away with before triggering another activation, no guarantee you can get more activations afterwards (judged on a case-by-case basis, according to Priestly), no revoke tool available and no commitment to patch the limit out in a reasonable amount of time. They may have used SecuROM, but they never used it like this before on their retail games.

This isn't an anti-piracy, it's anti-customer, and that's a statement I'll stand by.