Oblivion was the beginning of the end

I was just thinking back about when I noticed gaming "dumbing down", and for me that was when I first fired up Oblivion. Every game after Oblivion I meet with skeptisim and caution, like the new XCOM reveal; 10 years ago I would have begun the hype-train right away. Now I can barely feel excitement, assuming that the entire thing will be dumbed down for the lowest common denominator.

Maybe my love of Morrowind caused too much hype for Oblivion, but seriously, ever since that disappointment I just can't trust developers anymore. They want to make money (ok, no problem). What makes the most money? Dumbed down simple games that keep pushing the "reward" zone of your brain. It is why Michael Bay keeps making movies.

I like modern graphics, I hope that someday peoples general IQ will start rising again and we will see graphics combined with deep gameplay and sprawling freedom of choice.

Screw you Oblivion, you ruined my ability to hype a game.

Invisible War was the beginning of the end, imo.

I think Oblivion was a really fun game. I totally enjoyed the sidequests. What about it didn't you like exactly?

Ah... Using the phrase dumbing down instead of more descriptive phrasing, and then using that as a platform to insult the intelligence of the people who are into that....*sigh*

Considering how broad gaming has become it is a bit strange that there aren't more devs making games for you guys.

On a general level i think comments like the ones in threads like these often go a bit over the top, but for certain titles like TES it is a bit more understandable. Since they have very long dev cycles.

I was just thinking back about when I noticed gaming "dumbing down", and for me that was when I first fired up Oblivion. Every game after Oblivion I meet with skeptisim and caution, like the new XCOM reveal; 10 years ago I would have begun the hype-train right away. Now I can barely feel excitement, assuming that the entire thing will be dumbed down for the lowest common denominator.

Maybe my love of Morrowind caused too much hype for Oblivion, but seriously, ever since that disappointment I just can't trust developers anymore. They want to make money (ok, no problem). What makes the most money? Dumbed down simple games that keep pushing the "reward" zone of your brain. It is why Michael Bay keeps making movies.

I like modern graphics, I hope that someday peoples general IQ will start rising again and we will see graphics combined with deep gameplay and sprawling freedom of choice.

Screw you Oblivion, you ruined my ability to hype a game.

haberman13

[QUOTE="haberman13"]

I was just thinking back about when I noticed gaming "dumbing down", and for me that was when I first fired up Oblivion. Every game after Oblivion I meet with skeptisim and caution, like the new XCOM reveal; 10 years ago I would have begun the hype-train right away. Now I can barely feel excitement, assuming that the entire thing will be dumbed down for the lowest common denominator.

Maybe my love of Morrowind caused too much hype for Oblivion, but seriously, ever since that disappointment I just can't trust developers anymore. They want to make money (ok, no problem). What makes the most money? Dumbed down simple games that keep pushing the "reward" zone of your brain. It is why Michael Bay keeps making movies.

I like modern graphics, I hope that someday peoples general IQ will start rising again and we will see graphics combined with deep gameplay and sprawling freedom of choice.

Screw you Oblivion, you ruined my ability to hype a game.

kevy619

I liked Morrowind, but it had a very long laundry list of flaws. I absolutely loved Oblivion. Sure it wasnt a perfect game, but they really addressed most of the gripes people had with Morrowind and made it a much better game that a lot more people could get into. I will admit Oblivion had its share of problems too, the most notorious is the whole auto-leveling thing, but that is easily fixed with mods.

So according to your original post, does that make me an idiot? The tone of this post is highly offensive. And I could name a lot of games that came out before Oblivion that were "dumbed down." But the real question to ask, were the games "dumbed down" per se, or did the developers simply add things to their games that were not, or could not be added to games in the past because of time constraints, hardware limitations, or whatnot? This argument really could go either way.

I liked Morrowind, but it had a very long laundry list of flaws. I absolutely loved Oblivion. Sure it wasnt a perfect game, but they really addressed most of the gripes people had with Morrowind and made it a much better game that a lot more people could get into. I will admit Oblivion had its share of problems too, the most notorious is the whole auto-leveling thing, but that is easily fixed with mods.

So according to your original post, does that make me an idiot? The tone of this post is highly offensive. And I could name a lot of games that came out before Oblivion that were "dumbed down." But the real question to ask, were the games "dumbed down" per se, or did the developers simply add things to their games that were not, or could not be added to games in the past because of time constraints, hardware limitations, or whatnot? This argument really could go either way.

RossRichard

Oblivion is a perfect example of corporate interests ruining human expression. Morrowind was crafted with love, the depth of lore, story and options available to the player were hand crafted. (and they also made oodles of money) Oblivion was a number generator crafted to spit out a game world, the love was gone.

Oblivion got the combat right, that was it, in comparison to Morrowind at least.

The term "dumbed down" is popular nomenclature to express the concept of catering to the lowest common denominator, but for your sake: "condescendingly simplified"

"Dumbing Down" if applied to any other industry would be like going from manual steering to power steering or going from rotary phones to touch tone... or going from text based interface to a GUI.

It's hilarious that gamers take pride in enjoying mechanics that are usually clunky/outdated/archaic and in general not fun just so they can feel intellectual superiority to the masses.

IMO, role playing games in many aspects are deeply rooted in tradition and many mechanics to me makes no sense. Why must your character lug around an inventory that would overflow an modern day van? Why when you sell your items they only go for .00001% of the price the merchants sell for thus forcing you to lug around a van worth of loot in order to get anything out of? Why must characters level at all and at each level gain a set amount of hp/mp/energy and become exponentially stronger in stats at the end. I mean most RPGs leveling systems almost feels like you're playing a Dragonball Z character and not a real relatable hero where feasily you can only say get 50% or twice or so stronger at the end.

Anyways I thought Oblivion was decent... with mods.

You want a hardcore anti-dumbed-down game then get Demon's Souls for the PS3, it is brutal!

[QUOTE="kevy619"][QUOTE="haberman13"]

I was just thinking back about when I noticed gaming "dumbing down", and for me that was when I first fired up Oblivion. Every game after Oblivion I meet with skeptisim and caution, like the new XCOM reveal; 10 years ago I would have begun the hype-train right away. Now I can barely feel excitement, assuming that the entire thing will be dumbed down for the lowest common denominator.

Maybe my love of Morrowind caused too much hype for Oblivion, but seriously, ever since that disappointment I just can't trust developers anymore. They want to make money (ok, no problem). What makes the most money? Dumbed down simple games that keep pushing the "reward" zone of your brain. It is why Michael Bay keeps making movies.

I like modern graphics, I hope that someday peoples general IQ will start rising again and we will see graphics combined with deep gameplay and sprawling freedom of choice.

Screw you Oblivion, you ruined my ability to hype a game.

KHAndAnime

I was just thinking back about when I noticed gaming "dumbing down", and for me that was when I first fired up Oblivion. Every game after Oblivion I meet with skeptisim and caution, like the new XCOM reveal; 10 years ago I would have begun the hype-train right away. Now I can barely feel excitement, assuming that the entire thing will be dumbed down for the lowest common denominator.

Maybe my love of Morrowind caused too much hype for Oblivion, but seriously, ever since that disappointment I just can't trust developers anymore. They want to make money (ok, no problem). What makes the most money? Dumbed down simple games that keep pushing the "reward" zone of your brain. It is why Michael Bay keeps making movies.

I like modern graphics, I hope that someday peoples general IQ will start rising again and we will see graphics combined with deep gameplay and sprawling freedom of choice.

Screw you Oblivion, you ruined my ability to hype a game.

haberman13

@Osano

Not a debate but just curious if your definition of a RPG a game where you predominately focus on made up statistics and randomly generated items, and complex stat allocation system?

Because if it is, I can technically say what I work with in spreadsheet apps are "RPGs"

As for me an RPG is simply well a Role Playing Game, you know, a game where the main focus is for the player to play a role thus RPG, role playing game... bah forget it.

*looks out the window*

Nope...world hasn't ended yet.

In other news, Oblivion is a pretty alright game that is trashed on more than it really deserves.

*looks out the window*

Nope...world hasn't ended yet.

In other news, Oblivion is a pretty alright game that is trashed on more than it really deserves.

dos4gw82

I laugh at you younglings that think Morrowind was the pinnacle of TES:P

Daggerfall is where it's at... Morrowind was guilty of the same sins towards DF as Oblivion is towards MWD.

And come on, Obli's still a fun adventure game As an RPG it's cataclismic, yet the ES skill system has a unique flavour even dumbed down and saves the day...

Thank god (or whatever you do or do not worship) for small indie companies from East Europe. I probably would've called it quits by now if it weren't for the likes of 1C and Paradox.

Last time I asked people in real life, everyone has played Oblivion yet barely anyone has heard of Morrowind. This just shows that Bethesda did make the right choice with the making of Oblivion. Why the hell should the devs cater to Morrowind fans when people are just going to keep buying games like Oblivion and make the company much more money? People say companies should "stay true" to their fanbase but are all of their fans people who played Arena and Daggerfall?

Go ahead and call Oblivion dumbed down all you like but it is the beginning of a new generation of gaming. IMO RPG's have evolved so they have changed from those ancient games where you spend thousands of hours just rolling dices and adjusting the stats of your character.

Last time I asked people in real life, everyone has played Oblivion yet barely anyone has heard of Morrowind. This just shows that Bethesda did make the right choice with the making of Oblivion. Why the hell should the devs cater to Morrowind fans when people are just going to keep buying games like Oblivion and make the company much more money? People say companies should "stay true" to their fanbase but are all of their fans people who played Arena and Daggerfall?

Go ahead and call Oblivion dumbed down all you like but it is the beginning of a new generation of gaming. IMO RPG's have evolved so they have changed from those ancient games where you spend thousands of hours just rolling dices and adjusting the stats of your character.

BLUBBBER

Last time I asked people in real life, everyone has played Oblivion yet barely anyone has heard of Morrowind. This just shows that Bethesda did make the right choice with the making of Oblivion. Why the hell should the devs cater to Morrowind fans when people are just going to keep buying games like Oblivion and make the company much more money? People say companies should "stay true" to their fanbase but are all of their fans people who played Arena and Daggerfall?

Go ahead and call Oblivion dumbed down all you like but it is the beginning of a new generation of gaming. IMO RPG's have evolved so they have changed from those ancient games where you spend thousands of hours just rolling dices and adjusting the stats of your character.

BLUBBBER

So ... money is the be all and end all of everything? Where does it end? At what point do you say "OK, this is idiotically easy, why am I playing this?"

I don't want to go back to BG1/2 days, those games had the stats/lore/depth, but the actual gameplay sucked because of technological limitations. Now we get games that are inept in stats/lore/depth and great in gameplay; the tech allows both, but we keep getting the Michael Bay of character development/stats/lore.

Can't we have both?

Also, shouldn't games be developed to be slightly more complex than "plug-n-play" so that when you get over the learning curve you really discover something extendable and expandable that lasts? Take ME2 for example, sure, it was fun and the production value was high... but I can't play it again because they removed the complexity that would make the game worth experimenting with.

Invisible War was the beginning of the end, imo.

JackBurton

I think the real problem is that the barrier between markets has been removed, the corporatists see ONE HUGE MARKET where all games are equal. 10 years ago there were PC devs and console devs. Now everything is cross compatible so the games need to appeal to the *ahem* "most dumberest".

Idiocracy enlightened me to a real trend, that being that the masses are gradually getting more inept and gaming is an indicator of that ineptness.

[QUOTE="JackBurton"]

Invisible War was the beginning of the end, imo.

kdawg88

Hahahahah, you are so right, I retract: IW was the end.

[QUOTE="BLUBBBER"]

Last time I asked people in real life, everyone has played Oblivion yet barely anyone has heard of Morrowind. This just shows that Bethesda did make the right choice with the making of Oblivion. Why the hell should the devs cater to Morrowind fans when people are just going to keep buying games like Oblivion and make the company much more money? People say companies should "stay true" to their fanbase but are all of their fans people who played Arena and Daggerfall?

Go ahead and call Oblivion dumbed down all you like but it is the beginning of a new generation of gaming. IMO RPG's have evolved so they have changed from those ancient games where you spend thousands of hours just rolling dices and adjusting the stats of your character.

haberman13

So ... money is the be all and end all of everything? Where does it end? At what point do you say "OK, this is idiotically easy, why am I playing this?"

I don't want to go back to BG1/2 days, those games had the stats/lore/depth, but the actual gameplay sucked because of technological limitations. Now we get games that are inept in stats/lore/depth and great in gameplay; the tech allows both, but we keep getting the Michael Bay of character development/stats/lore.

Can't we have both?

Also, shouldn't games be developed to be slightly more complex than "plug-n-play" so that when you get over the learning curve you really discover something extendable and expandable that lasts? Take ME2 for example, sure, it was fun and the production value was high... but I can't play it again because they removed the complexity that would make the game worth experimenting with.

Frivolous discussion you ask? Yes, but we are Romans partying it up, this is the most important topic of the day!

[QUOTE="kdawg88"][QUOTE="JackBurton"]

Invisible War was the beginning of the end, imo.

haberman13

Hahahahah, you are so right, I retract: IW was the end.

[QUOTE="dos4gw82"]

*looks out the window*

Nope...world hasn't ended yet.

In other news, Oblivion is a pretty alright game that is trashed on more than it really deserves.

shakmaster13

Next question: to game solely on a console is an indicator of stupidity?haberman13

[QUOTE="haberman13"]Next question: to game solely on a console is an indicator of stupidity?dos4gw82

Doomsday? meh

Cultural rape and pillaging by the less intelligent? hmm, possibly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0O7_3o3BrI&feature=related

Invisible War was the beginning of the end, imo.

JackBurton

[QUOTE="BLUBBBER"]

Last time I asked people in real life, everyone has played Oblivion yet barely anyone has heard of Morrowind. This just shows that Bethesda did make the right choice with the making of Oblivion. Why the hell should the devs cater to Morrowind fans when people are just going to keep buying games like Oblivion and make the company much more money? People say companies should "stay true" to their fanbase but are all of their fans people who only played Arena and Daggerfall?

Go ahead and call Oblivion dumbed down all you like but it is the beginning of a new generation of gaming. IMO RPG's have evolved so they have changed from those ancient games where you spend thousands of hours just rolling dices and adjusting the stats of your character.

dos4gw82

Wow, are you that narrow minded that you won't even bother to give me a chance to explain my view on this? I was merely giving my own opinion on it, and it doesn't really seem like your "argument" is any better. Really, I would like to see a lot of the things from the users above implemented into the next elder scrolls. I have to say Morrowind had lots of merits such as its weird and alien setting and the deep dialogues (much better than Oblivion's voice acting), but what was bad was the terrible combat and horrible AI that just really ruined the appeal of this RPG.

Oblivion improved in this aspect, even if it took away many RPG elements and made it more action oriented. Overall I favour Oblivion because of this and with the excellent mods it has I just like it better than Morrowind, same with most of the people outside this forum.

[QUOTE="dos4gw82"]

[QUOTE="BLUBBBER"]

Last time I asked people in real life, everyone has played Oblivion yet barely anyone has heard of Morrowind. This just shows that Bethesda did make the right choice with the making of Oblivion. Why the hell should the devs cater to Morrowind fans when people are just going to keep buying games like Oblivion and make the company much more money? People say companies should "stay true" to their fanbase but are all of their fans people who only played Arena and Daggerfall?

Go ahead and call Oblivion dumbed down all you like but it is the beginning of a new generation of gaming. IMO RPG's have evolved so they have changed from those ancient games where you spend thousands of hours just rolling dices and adjusting the stats of your character.

BLUBBBER

Wow, are you that narrow minded that you won't even bother to give me a chance to explain my view on this? I was merely giving my own opinion on it, and it doesn't really seem like your "argument" is any better. Really, I would like to see a lot of the things from the users above implemented into the next elder scrolls. I have to say Morrowind had lots of merits such as its weird and alien setting and the deep dialogues (much better than Oblivion's voice acting), but what was bad was the terrible combat and horrible AI that just really ruined the appeal of this RPG.

Oblivion improved in this aspect, even if it took away many RPG elements and made it more action oriented. Overall I favour Oblivion because of this and with the excellent mods it has I just like it better than Morrowind, same with most of the people outside this forum.

[QUOTE="dos4gw82"]

[QUOTE="BLUBBBER"]

Last time I asked people in real life, everyone has played Oblivion yet barely anyone has heard of Morrowind. This just shows that Bethesda did make the right choice with the making of Oblivion. Why the hell should the devs cater to Morrowind fans when people are just going to keep buying games like Oblivion and make the company much more money? People say companies should "stay true" to their fanbase but are all of their fans people who only played Arena and Daggerfall?

Go ahead and call Oblivion dumbed down all you like but it is the beginning of a new generation of gaming. IMO RPG's have evolved so they have changed from those ancient games where you spend thousands of hours just rolling dices and adjusting the stats of your character.

BLUBBBER

Wow, are you that narrow minded that you won't even bother to give me a chance to explain my view on this? I was merely giving my own opinion on it, and it doesn't really seem like your "argument" is any better. Really, I would like to see a lot of the things from the users above implemented into the next elder scrolls. I have to say Morrowind had lots of merits such as its weird and alien setting and the deep dialogues (much better than Oblivion's voice acting), but what was bad was the terrible combat and horrible AI that just really ruined the appeal of this RPG.

Oblivion improved in this aspect, even if it took away many RPG elements and made it more action oriented. Overall I favour Oblivion because of this and with the excellent mods it has I just like it better than Morrowind, same with most of the people outside this forum.

Oblivion was a pretty cool story bro.

Morrowind was a lot better, Shivering Isles was actually better than Oblivion itself, I think.

They did put a lot of work into it, however, getting Captain Picard to play the voice of the king.

I thought Oblivion was great at first too, then 10 hours later I saw it for the shell of algorithmically created game that it is.

Invisible War was the beginning of the end, imo.

JackBurton

[QUOTE="BLUBBBER"]

Last time I asked people in real life, everyone has played Oblivion yet barely anyone has heard of Morrowind. This just shows that Bethesda did make the right choice with the making of Oblivion. Why the hell should the devs cater to Morrowind fans when people are just going to keep buying games like Oblivion and make the company much more money? People say companies should "stay true" to their fanbase but are all of their fans people who played Arena and Daggerfall?

Go ahead and call Oblivion dumbed down all you like but it is the beginning of a new generation of gaming. IMO RPG's have evolved so they have changed from those ancient games where you spend thousands of hours just rolling dices and adjusting the stats of your character.

haberman13

So ... money is the be all and end all of everything? Where does it end? At what point do you say "OK, this is idiotically easy, why am I playing this?"

I don't want to go back to BG1/2 days, those games had the stats/lore/depth, but the actual gameplay sucked because of technological limitations. Now we get games that are inept in stats/lore/depth and great in gameplay; the tech allows both, but we keep getting the Michael Bay of character development/stats/lore.

Can't we have both?

Also, shouldn't games be developed to be slightly more complex than "plug-n-play" so that when you get over the learning curve you really discover something extendable and expandable that lasts? Take ME2 for example, sure, it was fun and the production value was high... but I can't play it again because they removed the complexity that would make the game worth experimenting with.

I'm sorry, but this whole argument is ridiculous. If you think Oblivion is a bad game, you're playing it wrong, end of story. Yeah, the main quest storyline is pretty thin, and the level scaling is definitely a major boon, but to herald the game as some kind of omen that "the end is nigh" is absurd. The combat, magic and stealth are very well executed, the character development system is solid, and the world is absolutely massive and fun to explore. People seem to forget that Oblivion is an action RPG built around sandbox elements, just like the Elder Scrolls games before it. Could it be deeper? Of course, but it doesn't need to be. They didn't "dumb it down" compared to Morrowind. All they did was remove a few weapon types which sucked anyway, one armor type that didn't need to be there, and a handful of magic skills that were massively exploited by players. The storyline wasn't in the same league, of course, but the goal of the game was to give players the freedom to create their own stories, and to that end, I would definitely say they were successful. And it's not like the story was utterly terrible anyway. Besides, you should all remember that Daggerfall had a tremendously intricate story, and I doubt there are a dozen people on Earth who ever finished it. Seriously, all the Oblivion bashing needs to stop. It's a great game. Go read the official forums or the UESP forums and see what you're missing out on.JN_Fenrir

You beat me to it :lol: I dont necessarily agree with your statement that the main quest storyline being thin or that the Oblivion story wasnt in the same league with the Morrowind story, but everything else is spot on. Couldnt have said it better myself.

Invisible War was the beginning of the end, imo.

JackBurton

I'm sorry, but this whole argument is ridiculous. If you think Oblivion is a bad game, you're playing it wrong, end of story. Yeah, the main quest storyline is pretty thin, and the level scaling is definitely a major boon, but to herald the game as some kind of omen that "the end is nigh" is absurd. The combat, magic and stealth are very well executed, the character development system is solid, and the world is absolutely massive and fun to explore. People seem to forget that Oblivion is an action RPG built around sandbox elements, just like the Elder Scrolls games before it. Could it be deeper? Of course, but it doesn't need to be. They didn't "dumb it down" compared to Morrowind. All they did was remove a few weapon types which sucked anyway, one armor type that didn't need to be there, and a handful of magic skills that were massively exploited by players. The storyline wasn't in the same league, of course, but the goal of the game was to give players the freedom to create their own stories, and to that end, I would definitely say they were successful. And it's not like the story was utterly terrible anyway. Besides, you should all remember that Daggerfall had a tremendously intricate story, and I doubt there are a dozen people on Earth who ever finished it. Seriously, all the Oblivion bashing needs to stop. It's a great game. Go read the official forums or the UESP forums and see what you're missing out on.JN_Fenrir

Completely agree. Spent more that 100 hours in this game without any mods, and enjoyed every second.