PC game piracy in US estimated at 75-80%

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Creative

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#1 Creative
Member since 2002 • 2522 Posts

I am not sure on the accuracy of the article, but it's hard to believe the numbers are that high. Sure there are more consoles sold, which can play recent games, which can explain some lagging PC games sales (not all of us have high-end systems to run latest games).

Also, you can't play pirated PC games online, otherwise Blizzard would have only 2 or so million subscribers now. I think the only way to fix it, is to have better online support, which would force people to buy genuine games.

Source: http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=165488
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banedonoes

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#2 banedonoes
Member since 2007 • 701 Posts

someone will always crack pc games it would be hard to stop pc game piracy

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Guiltfeeder566

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#3 Guiltfeeder566
Member since 2005 • 10068 Posts
I hate people who pirate games... Damaging the industry...
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Franko_3

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#4 Franko_3
Member since 2003 • 5729 Posts

This is bs. The guy made the assumption that because some games sell for more on the console, they were pirated on the pc. FOr him, if a game sold 7 million on the x360 and 1.7 million on the pc, that mean 6 million copies were pirated non sense. His Bioshock data are also wrong, the game dev actually stated that the pc version sold more worldwide than he xbox360 version.

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Deihmos

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#5 Deihmos
Member since 2007 • 7819 Posts
I am sure piracy is bigger in other countries where they actually sell them in stores.
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_Pedro_

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#6 _Pedro_
Member since 2004 • 6829 Posts

Well the only thing this article proves is that piracy has very little to do with the low PC sales in the US:

It's no wonder that Epic Games is dumping PC games for the greener pastures of console gaming: piracy rates for the U.S. market alone are hovering around 80%! In the post, Fitch attacked pirates, the PC software security model and everything in between. In Europe, he said, piracy rates approach 90%. In Asia, those figures are "off the charts."

Europe is a MUCH bigger pc gaming market, yet piracy is at around 90%. 90% what by the way?

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deactivated-64ba3ebd35404

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#7 deactivated-64ba3ebd35404
Member since 2004 • 7590 Posts

90% of Console gamers have broken their console by urinating on it.

See, I can make up percentages too.

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Meu2k7

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#8 Meu2k7
Member since 2007 • 11809 Posts
Is this anymore credible than the "90% of Nintendo DS owners Pirate thier games in the U.S" ? :lol:
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marklar123

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#9 marklar123
Member since 2004 • 119 Posts

one of the big time game makers needs to take a cue from Radiohead. for those of you not familiar, Radiohead released their latest album on their own website for "whatever you want to pay us". by selling it on their own, they didn't need a publisher so they didn't have to pay the publisher's crazy fees. i'll have to go find the figures but it turns out that with an average take of around 4 pounds (i think that's what it was) per CD, they are making more money than if they had been with a lable. the publishers take that much money.

let the gamers pay what they feel the game is worth. it will be a lot less than the $50 they take now, but they would have less pirating and by not using a publisher i bet they would make more than they are now. there have been so many games that i've played that just aren't worth $50 so i won't buy them. if i could pay about $25-$30 i would do it. someone should try it once... it worked for Radiohead.

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spacedog1973

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#10 spacedog1973
Member since 2007 • 1144 Posts

Well the only thing this article proves is that piracy has very little to do with the low PC sales in the US:

It's no wonder that Epic Games is dumping PC games for the greener pastures of console gaming: piracy rates for the U.S. market alone are hovering around 80%! In the post, Fitch attacked pirates, the PC software security model and everything in between. In Europe, he said, piracy rates approach 90%. In Asia, those figures are "off the charts."

Europe is a MUCH bigger pc gaming market, yet piracy is at around 90%. 90% what by the way?

_Pedro_

90% of people who want to play the game, as opposed to the people who have any intention of buying it. I think the two are being confused. Probably intentionally. I can't believe business people are that ignorant.

If 100 people steal 100 cars, is that 100 lost sales? No. Only a proportion of those stealing had any intention of buying them.

As far as I am concerned, the rise in piracy and (if any) loss in sales is directly down to the poor quality 'pop corn' games that have been coming out in recent years. Devs have themselves to blame - try bringiing out a game that has wide appeal and longevity - games that people will be playing for years to come, then we'll see.

There are no gauranteed sales in business, businesses have to adpapt and whining like so many of these Devs seem to do (and those who like to whine on their behalf ) are assuming that unlike any other business in existance, somehow the gaming industry has a guarrenteed $$ amount net coming in each year. If if that figure isn't reached, guess what, we are to blame.

Please.

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BlueBirdTS

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#11 BlueBirdTS
Member since 2005 • 6403 Posts
Although piracy is obviously a problem in the digital entertainment industries, these statistics are overblown. I think the extent that piracy is genuinely damaging the industry is exaggerated for the most part. I'm not saying nothing should be done about it, but game developers seem to believe that there are no profits to be made in the PC gaming market because of pirating.
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FragMonkey09

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#12 FragMonkey09
Member since 2005 • 1543 Posts

BS!

No way in hell the number is that high. Seriously, if you only saw the amount of people who don't know how to use bittorrent for legal things...

The developers who make great games do not complain. Those whose games don't sell simply blame piracy.

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foxhound_fox

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#13 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
I like how he just pulls numbers out of his ass.

"Then I saw that Bioshock was selling 5 to 1 on console vs. PC. And Call of Duty 4 was selling 10 to 1. These are hardcore games, shooters, cIassic PC audience stuff."

Or perhaps those games didn't sell well because they didn't live up to the standards of the PC games that came before them and the PC gamers decided that if they weren't better than older games they weren't worth buying?

If PC piracy were as rampant as this moron suggests, Crytek wouldn't be celebrating million-plus sales with Crysis. I also find it hilarious that he says Epic games is dumping PC development... yet Epic is part of the PC Gaming Alliance.
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TeamR

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#14 TeamR
Member since 2002 • 1817 Posts

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17350

An interesting experiment conducted by casual game developers, Reflexive.

Their findings were that over 90% of the people playing the full version of their newest title pirated it. Their experiment was to actually go out and eliminate those copies. They did so and foudn that for every 1000 pirated copies eliminated, they only generated an additional 1 sale.

So if they were to eliminate 50,000 illegal copies, they would only generate an additional 50 sales.

Their question is: Is it worth it?

This is also an interesting article:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=33624

"It's a bitter pill for some executives to swallow, but the only way forward in the fight against piracy is going to be to treat customers like adults, and to assume that they are honourable and honest. The music business, to its surprise, is discovering that when you stop treating users like criminals, they stop acting like criminals. Let's hope videogames can learn that lesson without having to go through the revenue-crippling ordeal music has experienced in the past decade."

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GPAddict

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#15 GPAddict
Member since 2005 • 5964 Posts
Thou Shalt Not STEAL
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Grantelicious

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#17 Grantelicious
Member since 2007 • 1541 Posts
All my mates who downloaded pirated games can't afford to buy them anyways as they are at college and spend all their money on WOW. The rest are tooo busy playing WOW to play anything else....

Think i'm the only person I know who actually buys their PC games.


HAve to admit though I download them first and if they suck then I dont bother buying them but that's because demos don't give you the full picture...... I downloadecd Crysis and I liked it so I bought it.
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DaGamingGod

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#18 DaGamingGod
Member since 2008 • 1041 Posts
Digital downloads only is in our future. =(
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Hewkii

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#19 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts
so, does that mean 75-80% of games can be pirated?
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nutcrackr

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#20 nutcrackr
Member since 2004 • 13032 Posts

10-1 console sales to PC should have no bearing on the piracy of PC titles.

I buy my games, I enjoy supporting the platform, I'm aware I support it for pirates and that makes me sad that those people contribute nothing or very little to the games they love to play.

I also don't think people should pirate games to try them, thats what we have reviews, demos for.

PC game sales are rising anyway.

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DJGOON

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#21 DJGOON
Member since 2005 • 603 Posts
That article is pointless. It has no facts or evidence. He is trying to compare apples to oranges.
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darkfox101

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#22 darkfox101
Member since 2004 • 7055 Posts
Are they even counting digital distribution ?
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CavalAnts

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#23 CavalAnts
Member since 2008 • 398 Posts
so, does that mean 75-80% of games can be pirated?Hewkii


Make it 99%
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Hewkii

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#24 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts

[QUOTE="Hewkii"]so, does that mean 75-80% of games can be pirated?CavalAnts


Make it 99%

that's probably closer to the truth, but I don't know what the "75-80%" refers to.

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zeus_gb

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#25 zeus_gb
Member since 2004 • 7793 Posts

Holy ****! I didn't think the percentage was that high!

The rant by Michael Fitch is fantastic, the stuff about crap hardware is bang on.

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foxhound_fox

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#26 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
but I don't know what the "75-80%" refers to.Hewkii

In his words, 75-80% of the games being played on PC are pirated copies. Which is utter bull****.
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skrat_01

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#27 skrat_01
Member since 2007 • 33767 Posts

Ahhh this article conflicts with so much other stuff I dont know where to begin.

Everyone else seems on track though :)

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OoSuperMarioO

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#28 OoSuperMarioO
Member since 2005 • 6539 Posts

See look look another piracy thread destined to obtain plenty of replies. If people keep thinking piracy isn't a problem then you should really request a new medical therapist or anything beneficial to the human intellectual.

Edit: Wow I'm reading the post by Michael Fitch in the link and man he's holding no punches. A developer speaking from his experience "working" in the game industry and yet again people providing such ignorant doubts and thinks he's the bad guy. Makes me a sad panda face.

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Makari

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#29 Makari
Member since 2003 • 15250 Posts
I like how he just pulls numbers out of his ass.

"Then I saw that Bioshock was selling 5 to 1 on console vs. PC. And Call of Duty 4 was selling 10 to 1. These are hardcore games, shooters, cIassic PC audience stuff."

Or perhaps those games didn't sell well because they didn't live up to the standards of the PC games that came before them and the PC gamers decided that if they weren't better than older games they weren't worth buying?

If PC piracy were as rampant as this moron suggests, Crytek wouldn't be celebrating million-plus sales with Crysis. I also find it hilarious that he says Epic games is dumping PC development... yet Epic is part of the PC Gaming Alliance.foxhound_fox
The only problem I have with that thought is - what games did we discerning PC gamers buy instead? Those titles are still the top-selling ones on our platform in NA. And AdrianWerner, piracy definitely is higher in Europe than in the US, according to the research that's been done so far. If I had to guess, it's just more people in Europe play PC games overall, so there's more sales despite there being more piracy or something. It's a slow process, but a lot of the big guys and turning their guns away from the traditional disc-copying stuff and starting to aim it at the internet and people downloading instead.
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Skie7

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#30 Skie7
Member since 2005 • 1031 Posts

This is from the article TeamR posted.

Though that doesn't make a 92% piracy rate of one of our banner products any less distressing, knowing that eliminating 50,000 pirated copies might only produce 50 additional legal copies does help put things in perspective.

It would appear the number of pirated copies has very little impact on number of sales lost.

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Avenger1324

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#31 Avenger1324
Member since 2007 • 16344 Posts

Anything that can be got for free will be taken by a massive number of people. Raise the price so it costs the person something, even as little as 1cent, and the number that still want it falls hugely. That is simple economic theory. As soon as a consumer incurs a cost for something their demand falls.

While piracy is a problem, none of the statistics bandied about by various groups has any degree of accuracy. It's like the DEA putting an "estimate" on the value of drugs sold in the US. Considering the thing they are trying to monitor is illegal and trying to be done out of sight of the authorities they can have no reliable measure of how much is going on.

Until there is a way for authorities to easily track what a person downloads piracy levels will remain high. Of course as soon as the authorities got that level of control there would be a public outcry about violating their rights to privacy, ignoring the fact that a large amount of what they download is illegal.

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krazyorange

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#32 krazyorange
Member since 2005 • 2669 Posts
ideas like Steam seem to work well for preventing such rampant pirating anyways - I know it's bad not to have a hard copy, but I see everything going that way soon.
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Krall

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#34 Krall
Member since 2002 • 16463 Posts

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17350

An interesting experiment conducted by casual game developers, Reflexive.

Their findings were that over 90% of the people playing the full version of their newest title pirated it. Their experiment was to actually go out and eliminate those copies. They did so and foudn that for every 1000 pirated copies eliminated, they only generated an additional 1 sale.

So if they were to eliminate 50,000 illegal copies, they would only generate an additional 50 sales.

Their question is: Is it worth it?

TeamR

I think the problem with that theory is that if no one intended to buy that game in the first place, but wanted to 'try it' then they woudn't bother to purchase it after they couldn't use the copy they had. In a nut shell (and I know it's about casual games) the perceived quality of a game may have something to do with piracy rate.

You also may have spite coming into play, "Hey *bleep* you guys for killing my copy of the game!"

So take WoW for instance, if you could play it on Blizzard's servers without having purchased it don't you think their sales records would be a lot more flat?

BTW, I hate all these articles that are based on more speculation then anything. Show us real data and let us decided. It's irresponsible writing like that fuels anti-PC gaming sentiment.

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_Pedro_

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#35 _Pedro_
Member since 2004 • 6829 Posts

See look look another piracy thread destined to obtain plenty of replies. If people keep thinking piracy isn't a problem then you should really request a new medical therapist or anything beneficial to the human intellectual.

OoSuperMarioO

I really don't think anyone here is denying that piracy is NOT a problem, but what most of us are trying to say is that it's not the ONLY problem. Personally I don't understand why game devs aren't switching over to digital distribution all together, it makes piracy more difficult and more importantly it allows you to lower prices. I think many people are willing to buy pc games, but the price point doesn't seem right.

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#36 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

Stupid stupid and more stupid..

Ok first I would like to point out that the guy can't be taken seriously, the huge emotion he has in the post is odvious of this.. Notice that he not once even hints that Titan Quest could have been a lack luster product when Diablo 2 was beating its balls the entire time.. A game far older, and had far less copy write protection on it.. Instead he somehow blames piracy for this, not that he simply had a poor knock off that couldn't even surpass Diablo 2, a game far older.. Top this all off these thrown around % have shown no meaning.. Because A) Not a SINGLE damn person have told their sources, on how they got them, what they included in it, what they excluded in it.. They just threw some overbloated figure to raise eyebrows.. Secondly, how the hell could they have gotten these figures with out invading privacy? I wasn't aware that the company had a big brother system on our computers that gave them core data on everything...

Last but not least he is a dumbass for even trying to make the comparison of games like Bioshock and CoD4.. Pop quiz what do these games have in common people? Oh thats RIGHT they require relatively new hardware to even run!.. This relatively new hardware happens to be in the hands of the MINORITY of computer base.... And people still wonder why games like Blizzards sell so wonderful other then their quality.. Oh thats right they are able to run on the MAJORITY of set ups..

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linmukai

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#37 linmukai
Member since 2003 • 600 Posts

Behold the wall of text! Hopefully you are goofing off at work or something and enjoy the read...

That assertion is ridiculous, unfounded and I am very sure without any proof but I will add that I would not waste my time even going to read more about it given the obvious fallacy of that statement.

Someone else mentioned there will always be piracy and for as long as games run client side I would agree that is correct. Short of encrypting the entire game and requiring a key to unlock and run it which is unique per user, the only other way to exert full control is server side computing and even there creative hackers sometimes have a field day although it is rare in contrast to rampant piracy of software on the Internet today. Yes, piracy is rampant is not hard to believe if you use a search engine and poke around but numbers that high are laughable. I would say on the world wild web this would be very difficult to quantify.

I bring that up as I think the days of pirated software and to some extent other media possibly are numbered as we see a move towards a client - server model of distribution versus client only. There is a reason I believe that companies like Microsoft are developing services like Live Microsoft Office that will run server side and also why you see even game companies like Valve, EA and Ubi starting to explore this model of distribution. Traditional productivity apps will lead the way here but I think you can expect to see entertainment titles and possibly other media follow suit in the years to come. Right now the greatest issue probably centers on bandwidth and possibly startup and development costs as this technology rolls out and we see this happening right now. Google is another early player in this scenario with their now free office applications.

Making services and content free to Internet users until they are accepted and the value of them is proven has become something of a "traditional" method at this point of rolling out new Internet content in loss leader fashion until users come to desire and rely on it. At this point, you see content segment into limited free and the full content for a subscription or sometimes even one time fee. I believe this is why so many Google offerings which are all really in various forms of beta whether they call it that or not along with currently free Microsoft Live content will later all cost money to use when they have demonstrated real value and won acceptance.

By the time the client server model for retail applications starts becoming the norm I think Internet bandwidth will have improved enough to support moving gaming and other entertainment to this model as well. At that point, the pirating party is effectively over. The ramifications for publishers and developers in terms of fully capturing profit from their efforts is obvious and therefore no doubt strongly motivates the activity we are seeing presently in this direction.

Of course nobody can know timelines in advance on such things but when you consider how close we are to this now it could happen sooner than one might expect looking at it today. We have already seen how well this can work for a game for years now when you look at MMOs which generally have a lot of their content installed locally for performance reasons but are impossible to play without logging into an owned and paid account. Yes, I know about illegal free servers and perhaps illegal free content servers down the road could become the new piracy versus the self applied cracks to local installations prevalent today among those stealing software.

As it stands right now, a simple and very popular version of this is Valve's Steam. If I want to play my purchased copy of Counter-Strike Source purchased via Steam, the one and only way to do so is to logon to my account that is associated with that purchase. I like this for other reasons but this is very good for Valve as well since they have a lot of control over use here. Undoubtedly people have worked ways around this but I doubt with anywhere near the frequency of a stand alone retail boxed game that has no online ties beyond a serial number.

There are a lot of reasons this is going to come to be and not all of them are just good for the owners of intellectual properties of all sorts. For consumers this is going to mean you can purchase virtually all of the media you want from the comfort of home without driving to your local retailer and your ownership is not tied to some physical boxed item or plastic disc that can be lost, damaged, etc. In this world to come, my house could burn to the ground in the worst case scenario and assuming I live, when I rebuild I can go online and retrieve all of my digital belongings. It means I can access all of my digital belongings from anywhere and everywhere as time goes by. This is going to be a wonderful thing down the road in my opinion. I already like it where I can find it, such as with Valve's Steam for example.

Even library books are now available online in readable and audio formats in growing numbers. All media is going to come to us this way and given enough time, this will become the norm not the exception.

People have soundly rejected DRM but down the line improved forms of rights management will come to be that take into account traditional rights and uses of media we've historically had with physical copies of it in our possession. I can see a time coming when it won't be a big deal to loan a copy of anything I digitally own to a friend or family member with constraints just like the physical lending of books, cds, etc. When I loan it, they can use it and I can't. When they give it back, I can use it and they can't. This is exactly how lending someone a book or music CD works with physical media and I would be willing to be this is eventually implemented in an easy to use fashion for common forms of digital media. It almost has to happen for the masses to accept and move to it I would think. At that point, nobody can complain about being limited in ways they were not in the physical world eliminating that objection to the control publishers want. P2P sharing lovers will complain plenty but in legal and moral terms those complaints are baseless however passionately made.

It's a very interesting subject. I already use Microsoft's Live suite of online software and have signed up for the Office online beta which I expect is eventually going to be the only way to run office. It's just a matter of time. These guys want their hard earned money - all of it. I'd be willing to bet most software, including games, even console games, is all or nearly all client server delivered within about a decade or less.

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SKaREO

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#38 SKaREO
Member since 2006 • 3161 Posts

P2P sharing lovers will complain plenty but in legal and moral terms those complaints are baseless however passionately made.linmukai

You must be American to assume that.

You mention Windows Live Office... eww dude. Google does it better, faster and cheaper. The days of companies like Microsoft in the industry are numbered, not piracy.

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linmukai

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#39 linmukai
Member since 2003 • 600 Posts

[QUOTE="linmukai"]P2P sharing lovers will complain plenty but in legal and moral terms those complaints are baseless however passionately made.SKaREO

You must be American to assume that.

You mention Windows Live Office... eww dude. Google does it better, faster and cheaper. The days of companies like Microsoft in the industry are numbered, not piracy.

I don't see how my nationality comes into play here. Control is control and when they have it, p2p becomes irrelevant. Thus the predictable outcry over it. How is that an American versus European, Asian or any other view?

How can you comment about Windows Live Office which is not even in beta? You have not seen it. Google is better than something unreleased? There is no comparison to be made yet.

As for Microsoft's days being numbered, maybe they are but it is reasonable today to presume it is such a very high number as to not warrant speculation with no basis in the current reality whatsoever.

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SKaREO

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#40 SKaREO
Member since 2006 • 3161 Posts

Nationality has a lot to do with it. Notice the Pirate Bay is situated in Sweden? Swedish laws handle copyright infringement differently. Same with Canada, where its perfectly legal to download and use pirated software/movies/music/games as long as you don't distribute them or copy them to make a profit.

About MS Office Live, Google beat them to the gun long ago and they offer their services entirely FREE. So...

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Snaptrap

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#41 Snaptrap
Member since 2003 • 2186 Posts
I wonder how many people produce a false act of loyalty by saying they never pirate games or software when the truth is just the opposite??
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SKaREO

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#42 SKaREO
Member since 2006 • 3161 Posts
^ ... or how many people have rented games without realising the developer may have lost a sale if you didn't like it.
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Velocitas8

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#43 Velocitas8
Member since 2006 • 10748 Posts

Thou Shalt Not INFRINGE ON INTERNATIONAL COPYRIGHT AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY LAWGPAddict

Fixed for (legal) accuracy.

These figures are obviously flawed, but regardless, I'd still like to see a shift with developers towards broader online support in games..especially with RPGs and other genres that usually don't have a multiplayer component. Not only would it be an incentive for would-be pirates to purchase these games (master server CD-key verification for online play is the ONLY piracy countermeasure that actually works,) but hopefully it'll add a bit of variety and replay value to some games that wouldn't otherwise have much. It's also better than including invasive, half-baked copy protection schemes like Starforce, and other such methods that really only cause problems for legitimate customers.

The online components of Blizzard's games are unarguably what have made them such a huge success. It won't be a magic ticket to success, but other developers should take note.

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Tuzolord

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#44 Tuzolord
Member since 2007 • 1409 Posts
What a lie, I know so many people (who play pc games) that dont even know how to download a Torrent.
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anolecrabcf

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#45 anolecrabcf
Member since 2005 • 658 Posts

90% of Console gamers have broken their console by urinating on it.

See, I can make up percentages too.

kieranb2000

Sad but very true

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Wasdie

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#46 Wasdie  Moderator
Member since 2003 • 53622 Posts
There is no way it is that high.
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#47 CubePrime_basic
Member since 2003 • 3230 Posts

What a lie, I know so many people (who play pc games) that dont even know how to download a Torrent.Tuzolord
on my side it's quite different, half of my friends laugh at me when i buy a game. They actually brag about how much they download everything they can even if they don't watch/play it just for the heck of it. I often get an idiotic look: '' you buy your games? '' with big eyes thinking how can this geek with the ultimate home theater be stupid enough to buy games?

Again most of them don't play online, play games rated below 7 and have no clue about anything. They listen to hip-hop, only think about money and go clubbing almost daily.

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krazyorange

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#48 krazyorange
Member since 2005 • 2669 Posts
I love games. I pay for my own college.
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spacedog1973

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#49 spacedog1973
Member since 2007 • 1144 Posts

[QUOTE="Tuzolord"]What a lie, I know so many people (who play pc games) that dont even know how to download a Torrent.CubePrime_basic

on my side it's quite different, half of my friends laugh at me when i buy a game. They actually brag about how much they download everything they can even if they don't watch/play it just for the heck of it. I often get an idiotic look: '' you buy your games? '' with big eyes thinking how can this geek with the ultimate home theater be stupid enough to buy games?

Again most of them don't play online, play games rated below 7 and have no clue about anything. They listen to hip-hop, only think about money and go clubbing almost daily.

Sounds like one of those old anti-cannabis public service announcements. :cry: Listen, you pirates, this^^ could happen to you.

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mrbojangles25

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#50 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 60869 Posts

I would believe the stat if it said "75-80% have pirated games" but I dont believe it if the stat says "75-80% do pirate games" in the US.

I mean, be honest...most of you have pirated one game in your life; maybe it was Big Rigs, just to see how bad it was, or maybe it was Call of Duty 4 cuz you didnt want to pay 49.99 for a five-hour game. But I think most of you felt guilty enough (I know I sure did) that you problably wont ever do it again.

And as for the real piraters, the ones that always do it, well there is nothing to stop them. But not having piracy protection sure didnt hurt the sales of Sins of a Solar Empire so its really hard to show sympathy for publishers nowadays when they use the piracy copout.