PhysX

Im considering the purchase of a PhysX card.... 

Primarily cause I just watched a bunch of CellFactor: Revolution videos.  Not really sure there's much to benefit

Im just kinda wondering how many of the users here have one, and what you might have to say about Aegia and PhysX

total and utter waste of money, besides your 8800 gtx is already handling the physics in-game already, with the quantum physics engine.jfelisario

that has nothign to do with Ageia.  You will not benefit for Ageias PhysX with a nVidia Phyiscs, that is set up only for Havok. 

Thanks nuff said!

I've actually really come to appreciate your opinions here, you're chock full of good advice

The PhysX card won't relieve any processing off the video card? I was kinda hoping it would.  So far Ive only seen 2 games that even support Physx so it kinda did seem like a waste.  Still...  I don't know everything, im just trying  :D

Thanks nuff said!

I've actually really come to appreciate your opinions here, you're chock full of good advice

 

The PhysX card won't relieve any processing off the video card? I was kinda hoping it would. So far Ive only seen 2 games that even support Physx so it kinda did seem like a waste. Still... I don't know everything, im just trying :D

250Ridah

It does take the stress off the CPU and GPU so those components can be used to there fullest.  Whic is why you score higher on CPU scores in 3dMark06. 

Over 60 games use Ageia and over 100 titles coming in the next 2 year. They own the rights to the Unreal 3 engine.

GRAW 2
Rainbow 6 Vegas
Gears of War
Unreal Tournament 3
Dark Sector
Red Steel
Vanguard
City of Heroes/Villains
Auto Assault
etc etc etc etc etc etc

Dont forget not all games use Havok either....Call of Duty 2 for instance.

Who sells em cheapest now? 250Ridah

newegg.com
ncix.com

there are lots of stores that do.  This is the year to show of PhysX from Ageia, so its getting close to some gret games.  If you asked me this questiosn 6 motnsh ago, I would have said, just wait a bit. 

I'm not sure about Ageia's solution - I like that it brought more complex physics calculations into the gaming picture, and I would love to see more games use physics processing to eliminate some of the more annoying issues that plague even the best-looking games. Still, the idea of an entirely new piece of hardware that has literally no impact on anyone but gamers is going to be tough to implement, especially since it doesn't just affect how the game looks on your screen, but literally how objects interact with each other in the gaming world.. I don't see Ageia's solution as being a really viable one in the long term, just because it is too specialized to appeal to large amounts of people.RayvinAzn

I guess everyday people go out and buy 8800gtx for doing home computing?

If it wasnt so big, why would HAvok impliment it into the GPU?

Also it does add more flash to the game, cloth effects, more animations with explosions, more particles, collisions, blood, bullet realism, destructable environs, metal bending. Physcics from Havok and PhysX from Ageia are here to stay. If you get a 8800 series or x2900 series and have the Ageia PPU, then you ahve the best of both Physic/X worlds.

Ageia has already got there pcie version readying to go in late 2008, also have quad PhysX drivers out for 4 P{PUs, which is unrealistic, but they showed a demo off this year. It was of a room full of barrels, every barrel correctly smashing into eachother and denting eachother.

My feeling on this is pretty simple... 

Your hardware can always benefit from more relief.  I had a PC with integrated video once.  I played Arctic Fox on it...  with little red squares firing green blocks and blue circles.  The graphics sucked, I was a sad sad panda-

My new rig freakin pwns...  its the best PC i've ever played on.  Yet the industry seems to be making better use of new hardware all the time.  With the advancement of in-game physics, it seems pretty fitting to have a processor onboard to handle those calculations and free up my hardware for its normal operations

Every game I play right now I play with my video settings maxed out...   I don't ever wanna go back to the way it was before

thanks for the info guys

I guess everyday people go out and buy 8800gtx for doing home computing?

If it wasnt so big, why would HAvok impliment it into the GPU?

Also it does add more flash to the game, cloth effects, more animations with explosions, more particles, collisions, blood, bullet realism, destructable environs, metal bending. Physcics from Havok and PhysX from Ageia are here to stay. If you get a 8800 series or x2900 series and have the Ageia PPU, then you ahve the best of both Physic/X worlds.

Ageia has already got there pcie version readying to go in late 2008, also have quad PhysX drivers out for 4 P{PUs, which is unrealistic, but they showed a demo off this year. It was of a room full of barrels, every barrel correctly smashing into eachother and denting eachother.

9mmSpliff

No, people don't go out and buy an 8800GTX for home computing purposes - but it's safe to say that less than 1% of the computers in the world even have an 8-series card, let alone an 8800GTX. Hell, I'd say it's a safe bet than less than 5% of computer gamers have one. But every single home computer on the planet as some sort of display device, because everyone needs one. How are companies going to successfully market a physics processing unit to the mid-range sector, or the folks that just want a computer for email? The industry is not likely to see the growth and profits that graphics companies make, or even that sound card manufacturers make.

Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% for physics implementation. I would love to see a game where my hair didn't fall down through my shoulders, my armor didn't poke through my head when I raise an axe, my sword doesn't stick through my cape, or where guns stick through doors. I'm honestly all in favour of halting the march towards photorealistic graphics so we can get basic things like joints that don't look like G.I. Joe action figures, or rocks 1 foot high you can't jump over.

But as it stands, I don't see it really possible for Ageia's solution to take off. Another expansion card, specificially targeted at gamers - and one that has to be used in order to get some truly impressive results? I just can't see it happening. First of all, let's face it - this is targeting one gaming segment - first-person-shooters. I'll grant you that that is easily one of the biggest gaming segments out there, likely second to online role-playing games. But that's the only place it's going to be used, as real-time-strategy games don't require complex physics calculations (yet - that might be interesting to see, now that I think about it), nor do turn-based strategy games, etc. So you're looking at a limited segment of computer users already (gamers), looking mainly at a particular section of those players, and then nearly forcing them to buy this one card in order for games to run properly. I just can't see that happening.

Now, what Nvidia and ATI are gunning for, that does seem possible. Most gamers are used to upgrading their graphics cards already, and adding another feature on board something they'll be purchasing anyway seems much more plausible. Another good way to go might be using one core of a processor to get the physics calculations done. But trying to get people to buy a discreet card just for physics alone seems pretty unlikely - and if it's going to be done properly, nobody but those with these cards can play the game.

Two more questions just came to mind-

Is the game Huxley using Aegia PhysX? 

If thats the case then will 256mb or duo/multi core PhysX ppu's be available before or near the game's release?

FPS, RTS, RPG, Driving all targeted with Physics and PhysX.  

the reason why they make the PPU is to take the stress off the CPU and GPU so they can be used to their fullest potential.  Letting the user get the most out of all his cores.

Yes Huxley will use Ageia, because the Unreal 3 license is licensed by Ageia. 

This PPU can be used in all setups. Reason, becasue it lets the GPU and CPU do whatever they need to.  While the PPU takes the stress away from them...even letting a 7600gt user get his graphics in, but all the while enjoying cloth effects, better explosions, more blood, more bullets, more trajectary.  So really this isnt just cattered to a higher end market.  Ageia has already covered this in meetings and writeups.   

FPS, RTS, RPG, Driving all targeted with Physics and PhysX.

 

the reason why they make the PPU is to take the stress off the CPU and GPU so they can be used to their fullest potential. Letting the user get the most out of all his cores.

Yes Huxley will use Ageia, because the Unreal 3 license is licensed by Ageia.

This PPU can be used in all setups. Reason, becasue it lets the GPU and CPU do whatever they need to. While the PPU takes the stress away from them...even letting a 7600gt user get his graphics in, but all the while enjoying cloth effects, better explosions, more blood, more bullets, more trajectary. So really this isnt just cattered to a higher end market. Ageia has already covered this in meetings and writeups.

9mmSpliff

yep agreed on the capability, but if you are going to spend about 150 dollars on it to pair it up with a 7600 gt, you might as well sli the 7600 gt, you'd get more performance that way.

FPS, RTS, RPG, Driving all targeted with Physics and PhysX.

the reason why they make the PPU is to take the stress off the CPU and GPU so they can be used to their fullest potential. Letting the user get the most out of all his cores.

Yes Huxley will use Ageia, because the Unreal 3 license is licensed by Ageia.

This PPU can be used in all setups. Reason, becasue it lets the GPU and CPU do whatever they need to. While the PPU takes the stress away from them...even letting a 7600gt user get his graphics in, but all the while enjoying cloth effects, better explosions, more blood, more bullets, more trajectary. So really this isnt just cattered to a higher end market. Ageia has already covered this in meetings and writeups.

9mmSpliff

Driving physics are fairly simple compared to first-person-shooters. They already have very realistic physics in quite a few games already out. Granted, I would say they are much more important in a good driving simulator than a run-and-gun game, but with racers already burdened with the hardware requirements generally involving a wheel and pedals, I don't think too many people are going to want to run out and drop that much again on a physics card.

And if all physics is going to be is effects, I'm not quite as excited about it as I would be if it actually affected gameplay. Good-looking cloth is all well and good, and prettier explosions would be nice and all - but if they don't interact realistically with the world around them, I wouldn't really even call them "physics" processors, more like micro-managed graphics. I don't want the explosions to just look better, I want them to send out a bunch of shrapnel that actually did something, rather than just have a lot of pretty polygons flying around. I want that grenade I throw out to blow the car halfway across the street. I'd like to see plants actually get pushed out of my way rather than just clipping through them. That's what I've always understood the point of a physics processor to be - not something that just deals with a very specific type of graphical effect - it's also the reason I don't see it getting anywhere as its own separate thing.

[QUOTE="9mmSpliff"]

FPS, RTS, RPG, Driving all targeted with Physics and PhysX.

the reason why they make the PPU is to take the stress off the CPU and GPU so they can be used to their fullest potential. Letting the user get the most out of all his cores.

Yes Huxley will use Ageia, because the Unreal 3 license is licensed by Ageia.

This PPU can be used in all setups. Reason, becasue it lets the GPU and CPU do whatever they need to. While the PPU takes the stress away from them...even letting a 7600gt user get his graphics in, but all the while enjoying cloth effects, better explosions, more blood, more bullets, more trajectary. So really this isnt just cattered to a higher end market. Ageia has already covered this in meetings and writeups.

RayvinAzn

Driving physics are fairly simple compared to first-person-shooters. They already have very realistic physics in quite a few games already out. Granted, I would say they are much more important in a good driving simulator than a run-and-gun game, but with racers already burdened with the hardware requirements generally involving a wheel and pedals, I don't think too many people are going to want to run out and drop that much again on a physics card.

And if all physics is going to be is effects, I'm not quite as excited about it as I would be if it actually affected gameplay. Good-looking cloth is all well and good, and prettier explosions would be nice and all - but if they don't interact realistically with the world around them, I wouldn't really even call them "physics" processors, more like micro-managed graphics. I don't want the explosions to just look better, I want them to send out a bunch of shrapnel that actually did something, rather than just have a lot of pretty polygons flying around. I want that grenade I throw out to blow the car halfway across the street. I'd like to see plants actually get pushed out of my way rather than just clipping through them. That's what I've always understood the point of a physics processor to be - not something that just deals with a very specific type of graphical effect - it's also the reason I don't see it getting anywhere as its own separate thing.

Im talkinga ll physical effects. Not just special effects. But collision too and destructable environs too. Just cause you have a mid range GPU and mid range CPU, it doesnt take away. Waht the PPU is doing is lettign those things to their thing and letting the PPU do its thing with more interaction with the physical world. So its adding a hole new element in the realism.

Yes you could pair it up with another GPU for SLI, but youre not getting to use the PhysX then. You will get more frames now, but you wont get the goodies taht come with the PhysX PPU. But you are right in saying that a mid range setup with this does seem a bit poitnless.

Altho, if thats all you can afford and you want the goodies, then get it. You can do PhysX now, but you wont get cloth effects, the ripples of sound waves from exlposions, etc etc. Unless you have the PPU. I had the PPU with my x1800xt. I couldnt max out cell factor if my life depended on it, but I did get all the goodies of the physX.

We will have to see in a few days when Infernal and Cell FActor come out. Infernal uses the PPU and well Cell Factor is amazing physically.  Cell factors per pixel motion blur amazing, but man, its a GPU killer.  Brings my 8800gts to its knees, but thats a demo too.  

How does that affect multiplayer though? If you blow up a car and it goes flying because you have a PPU, and someone else playing online with you doesn't have one, what happens? 

How does that affect multiplayer though? If you blow up a car and it goes flying because you have a PPU, and someone else playing online with you doesn't have one, what happens?

RayvinAzn

It would be like what there doing with Crysis. People with Direct x 10 play on one server and Direct x 9 users go on another server. So people with physics cards would play here people with out would play over there.

why on earth would you need a physics card when Dual core CPU's are mainstream and Quad core will be in about a year or so depending. To be honest we pretty much have CPU's not even beginning to be used to there potential so to hell with needing a hole new component just to do one little thing.TrailorParkBoy

If they're not being used to their full potential, why do we see such a large frame-rate increase going from an E6320 processor to an E6700, or an X2 3800 to an X2 5000?

[QUOTE="TrailorParkBoy"]why on earth would you need a physics card when Dual core CPU's are mainstream and Quad core will be in about a year or so depending. To be honest we pretty much have CPU's not even beginning to be used to there potential so to hell with needing a hole new component just to do one little thing.RayvinAzn

If they're not being used to their full potential, why do we see such a large frame-rate increase going from an E6320 processor to an E6700, or an X2 3800 to an X2 5000?

less bottleneck on the 8800 gtx's? ^_^, it really depends on the situation. 

[QUOTE="TrailorParkBoy"]why on earth would you need a physics card when Dual core CPU's are mainstream and Quad core will be in about a year or so depending. To be honest we pretty much have CPU's not even beginning to be used to there potential so to hell with needing a hole new component just to do one little thing.RayvinAzn

If they're not being used to their full potential, why do we see such a large frame-rate increase going from an E6320 processor to an E6700, or an X2 3800 to an X2 5000?

well the X2 3800 is the cheapest dual core there is so I would assume a 5000 would beat it. and the only game that I know of that uses dual cores is Supreme commander. So instantly you lose a lot of performance there.

they havent atlked about that yet with people that have one and dont for MP.  But Ageia said, that people with no PPU will get lots of the special effects, just it will be more on the CPU then.  They also dont get the effects that people dont.  Nto with cars flying, because in Cell Factor right now with no PPU, you still see boxes fly. 

Once again people....havin ga dual core or quad core doesnt matter with a Ageia PPU.  The Ageia PPU is there for the Ageia PhysX and the PPU is also there to let the CPU and GPU be used to there fullest potential.

You still get Ageia PhysX with no PPU, but not the full effects from the PhysX, just as much as Ageia will allow that wont affect your setup.  you still get to choose through the options of what physX to put on too.  if you want cloth effects, if you want sound rippels.  etc etc. 

The PhysX card is a great idea in principle. At the moment right now, there just aren't any games that I want that support it, and are good enough for me to buy the card.

If there was a game that I really liked that could employ the PhysX card, then I could see myself buying one. But certainly not before then. 

well the X2 3800 is the cheapest dual core there is so I would assume a 5000 would beat it. and the only game that I know of that uses dual cores is Supreme commander. So instantly you lose a lot of performance there.

TrailorParkBoy

But if games were not fully utilizing the cores, we shouldn't see any significant frame rate increase going from an X2 3800 to an X2 5000.

[QUOTE="TrailorParkBoy"]

well the X2 3800 is the cheapest dual core there is so I would assume a 5000 would beat it. and the only game that I know of that uses dual cores is Supreme commander. So instantly you lose a lot of performance there.

RayvinAzn

But if games were not fully utilizing the cores, we shouldn't see any significant frame rate increase going from an X2 3800 to an X2 5000.

3800= 2 cheap crap ones

5000=2 really good ones

 Most games only use one core so the 5000 would obviously beat the 3800. No matter what the 5000 would smoke a 3800, I mean a 5000 costs like $150 and a 3800 costs like $79. Apart from Sup com no games(to me knowledge) use multi-core cpu's so enabling it would boost performance by ruffly 50%. that's a lot.

The bottom line here is that games designed around Aegia Physx engine will see an increase in performance from a PhysX card.  Its really not that complicated.  If the designers build it that way, then it should be run that way.

I couldn't care less about whats mainstream, my 8800GTX isn't mainstream but it still increases performance over lesser video cards.  Whether or not Duo core PC's "can handle" those operations is totally beside the point.  If a game is designed with Aegia PhysX in mind, then you will see an improvement using a PhysX ppu

I learned what I needed to, feel free to hijack and /scat all over this thread

dont know if its been said or not, but you can run the cellfactor demo without the card

right click on the shortcut and put "EnablePhysX=false" at the end of the shortcut (without "" of course)

idk if this works on the full version though

and it pulls on your system alot. very likely you will experience skippage with any computer thats not in the "extreme" range

dont know if its been said or not, but you can run the cellfactor demo without the card

right click on the shortcut and put "EnablePhysX=false" at the end of the shortcut (without "" of course)

idk if this works on the full version though

and it pulls on your system alot. very likely you will experience skippage with any computer thats not in the "extreme" range

blazethe1

I should give it a try then :) 

3800= 2 cheap crap ones

5000=2 really good ones

Most games only use one core so the 5000 would obviously beat the 3800. No matter what the 5000 would smoke a 3800, I mean a 5000 costs like $150 and a 3800 costs like $79. Apart from Sup com no games(to me knowledge) use multi-core cpu's so enabling it would boost performance by ruffly 50%. that's a lot.

TrailorParkBoy

Then how about an X2 3800 outperforming a single-core 3800? 

Actually the nHancer programs allows you to tweak the DC for games that aren't optimized for dual core.

Makes the cores work more evenly..

Helped abit in STALKER

I have an Aegia  card....it's ok..( it was a free upgrade )

No games ...sigh..

The bottom line here is that games designed around Aegia Physx engine will see an increase in performance from a PhysX card. Its really not that complicated. If the designers build it that way, then it should be run that way.

250Ridah

No, it's acommon misconception that a physics cards relieves your other components.

Game sthat support the card allow additional effects that strain both the physics card and your other components so you will get more effects but potentially lower performance than those without a physics card. 

[QUOTE="250Ridah"]

The bottom line here is that games designed around Aegia Physx engine will see an increase in performance from a PhysX card. Its really not that complicated. If the designers build it that way, then it should be run that way.

Gog

No, it's acommon misconception that a physics cards relieves your other components.

Game sthat support the card allow additional effects that strain both the physics card and your other components so you will get more effects but potentially lower performance than those without a physics card. 

According to Ageia and they even explained it in a few interviews.  The PPU is there to take teh stress off the other components to be used to there fullest potential.  Its not there to add FPS or take away FPS.  The PPU is there to take the stress away.  

The GPU still process the same amount of images on teh screen, but the PPU processes them flying around.  Some effects like ripples in teh air are GPU, will be near no fps drop.  Yes the boxes flying around do produce more pixels to be processed, but the GPU is the only thing being stressed here, but its minimal.  The PPU is taking the stress away.

I guess what I should say is the CPU gets fully unstressed, its the GPU that does get some stress, but its minimal.  Afterall, I score higher on 3dmark06 CPU test with the PPU then with no PPU, because its letting my 4400 get fully used.

Most of the people nay-saying it are saying pretty much the exact same things that were being said of video cards a decade + ago. Only for gamers, no widespread support, what we have is good enough, etc. It took a killer app to really get hardware video card sales going, and Ageia doesn't have one yet for their hardware.Makari

Unreal Tournament 3, Huxley, Cell Factor, Infernal, Vanguard will use the PPU more then other companies, but still youre right, nothing yet. Soon tho.

well the physx cards will end up either fully required or deleted from the gaming world because of gpu cards who handle physx, and i think that they are going to be needed if the gpu physx processing isnt going well. for now those cards r useless, and btw for all who havent knew this, splinter cell double agent uses physx.r3351925

GPUs do not handle PhysX, they handle Physics from Havok.  Ageia is PhysX.  Its just competition for Havok, think of it that way.  Not only Splinter Cell, but lots of titles do.  Some more then others ofcourse.