Seriously people, if you don't buy Mount and Blade...

This topic is locked from further discussion.

Avatar image for Arthur96
Arthur96

950

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#1 Arthur96
Member since 2011 • 950 Posts

...

Beautiful and fantastic game.

Avatar image for lawlessx
lawlessx

48753

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#3 lawlessx
Member since 2004 • 48753 Posts
To be clear;you're talking about warband correct?
Avatar image for Zubinen
Zubinen

2555

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#5 Zubinen
Member since 2011 • 2555 Posts
It doesn't suit casual gamers, which unfortunately nowadays make up the bulk of the PC audience. There's actual depth to the combat, every movement, every keystroke from an expert player will have an intention behind it, footwork in itself is an art form in this game. Torque, angle of attack, and target's velocity relative to the user all mater for how damage is calculated, and to be part of a regiment is what true team work is about, where you may train for days on end, for months with dozens or even hundreds of players before your regiment can consider itself "ready". This game is made for the hardcore, if words/phrases like "difficulty", "depth", "steep learning curve", "robust combat and movement system" make you cringe, there's an exit over here, and an exit over here, it doesn't matter where you leave, but you have to go.
Avatar image for Arthur96
Arthur96

950

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#6 Arthur96
Member since 2011 • 950 Posts

To be clear;you're talking about warband correct?lawlessx

Yes.

Although WFaS is decent as well, Warband is the best of the three.

Avatar image for Mr_Ditters
Mr_Ditters

1920

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 43

User Lists: 0

#7 Mr_Ditters
Member since 2008 • 1920 Posts

Buy it, download the Crpg mod, then give up the next few weeks of your life.

Avatar image for Zubinen
Zubinen

2555

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#8 Zubinen
Member since 2011 • 2555 Posts

[QUOTE="lawlessx"]To be clear;you're talking about warband correct?Arthur96

Yes.

Although WFaS is decent as well, Warband is the best of the three.

I actually prefer WFAS even though Warband is more popular and more polished. Sure there's the mount & musket mod for Warband, but I like that WFAS is inherently designed around muskets and pistols being part of the gameplay, and I also enjoy the melee combat of WFAS more.
Avatar image for Arthur96
Arthur96

950

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#9 Arthur96
Member since 2011 • 950 Posts

[QUOTE="Arthur96"]

[QUOTE="lawlessx"]To be clear;you're talking about warband correct?Zubinen

Yes.

Although WFaS is decent as well, Warband is the best of the three.

I actually prefer WFAS even though Warband is more popular and more polished. Sure there's the mount & musket mod for Warband, but I like that WFAS is inherently designed around muskets and pistols being part of the gameplay, and I also enjoy the melee combat of WFAS more.

See, the problem with WFAS was ACTUALLY muskets and pistols. They are far too powerful. They throw in an escense of luck into the combat - you can get lucky, and not get hit by anyone, or vice-versa - get annihilated with one shot.

Let's be honest. One shot to the leg generally won't make someone pass out...

Avatar image for The_Capitalist
The_Capitalist

10838

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 17

User Lists: 0

#10 The_Capitalist
Member since 2004 • 10838 Posts

I bought all three games for $20 several months ago. I played it for two hours and decided that it wasn't my cup of tea. And this is coming from someone who loves ARMA.

Each to his own, I guess... I wasted $20 because I listened to the masses instead of thinking critically about what I liked.

Avatar image for IZoMBiEI
IZoMBiEI

6477

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#11 IZoMBiEI
Member since 2002 • 6477 Posts

I only own the original, but I've put so many hours into it I think I need a break before trying the other ones.

Avatar image for osan0
osan0

18244

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#12 osan0
Member since 2004 • 18244 Posts
but...but..i bought it last year TC...please dont kill me! aye tis a good game. a bit bonkers and some bigger battles can drag out but good fun :D. i must check out that crpg mod.
Avatar image for Zubinen
Zubinen

2555

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#13 Zubinen
Member since 2011 • 2555 Posts

[QUOTE="Zubinen"][QUOTE="Arthur96"]

Yes.

Although WFaS is decent as well, Warband is the best of the three.

Arthur96

I actually prefer WFAS even though Warband is more popular and more polished. Sure there's the mount & musket mod for Warband, but I like that WFAS is inherently designed around muskets and pistols being part of the gameplay, and I also enjoy the melee combat of WFAS more.

See, the problem with WFAS was ACTUALLY muskets and pistols. They are far too powerful. They throw in an escense of luck into the combat - you can get lucky, and not get hit by anyone, or vice-versa - get annihilated with one shot.

Let's be honest. One shot to the leg generally won't make someone pass out...

In bigger battles however muskets and pistols do make things more exciting, and although they are terribly powerful, they are extremely inaccurate except in the hands of an expert marksman. WFAS goes one step further in the direction of hardcore, and I like it. Also I play mostly on duel servers so a good portion of the time it's infantry melee vs infantry melee.
Avatar image for Heartagram_03
Heartagram_03

3697

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#14 Heartagram_03
Member since 2005 • 3697 Posts

Bought it during the summer sales. After all the buzz I heard from a friend and other sites, I finally got to play it. Played for 8 hours and couldn't really find myself enjoying the game. The combat just wasn't for me I suppose. Although it was fun having some epic 1v1 sword battles.

Avatar image for deactivated-5a9b3f32ef4e9
deactivated-5a9b3f32ef4e9

7779

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#15 deactivated-5a9b3f32ef4e9
Member since 2009 • 7779 Posts

I really liked Warband, and put about 50 hours into it, but I hated WF&S

Avatar image for PublicNuisance
PublicNuisance

4582

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 13

User Lists: 0

#16 PublicNuisance
Member since 2009 • 4582 Posts

...

Beautiful and fantastic game.

Arthur96

Played the demo, didn't like it, to each their own.

Avatar image for klusps
klusps

10386

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 53

User Lists: 0

#17 klusps
Member since 2005 • 10386 Posts

I tried the demo but it wasn't for me. I see my friends play it a lot though.

Avatar image for KHAndAnime
KHAndAnime

17565

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#18 KHAndAnime
Member since 2009 • 17565 Posts

Definitely one of my top favorites of the decade. Can't believe it took a husband and wife dev team in Turkey to actually create a large-scale medieval RPG with awesome melee combat, horse combat, and huge battles.

Better yet is the cRPG mod for Mount and Blade: Warband. It's similar to the regular multiplayer, except you get to keep a persistent character who earns gold, levels up, and can acquire powerful gear over time. Or to put it shortly...

Game gets my highest recommendation. I'm having a hard time putting any time into Skyrim with this game out.

Avatar image for deactivated-59f03d6ce656b
deactivated-59f03d6ce656b

2944

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#19 deactivated-59f03d6ce656b
Member since 2009 • 2944 Posts

Definitely one of my top favorites of the decade. Can't believe it took a husband and wife dev team in Turkey to actually create a large-scale medieval RPG with awesome melee combat, horse combat, and huge battles. Better yet is the cRPG for Mount and Blade: Warband. It's similar to the regular multiplayer, except you get to keep a persistent character who earns gold, levels up, and can acquire powerful gear over time. Or to put it shortly...  Game gets my highest recommendation. I'm having a hard time putting any time into Skyrim with this game out. KHAndAnime
Yeah Crpg is pretty addicting + like 60 more hours before steam.

Avatar image for Zubinen
Zubinen

2555

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#20 Zubinen
Member since 2011 • 2555 Posts
M&B makes Skyrim look like burnt money, at least combat/movement wise :( But Skyrim is easier to hop onto and is far more popular so it's easy to find people to share Skyrim game experiences with, although the same can be said for any hyper mainstream game.
Avatar image for CCpotter
CCpotter

134

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#21 CCpotter
Member since 2011 • 134 Posts

i won't buy it, can't bear the style

Avatar image for Mr_Ditters
Mr_Ditters

1920

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 43

User Lists: 0

#22 Mr_Ditters
Member since 2008 • 1920 Posts

M&B makes Skyrim look like burnt money, at least combat/movement wise :( But Skyrim is easier to hop onto and is far more popular so it's easy to find people to share Skyrim game experiences with, although the same can be said for any hyper mainstream game.Zubinen

Yeah whenever I play a first person game like Skyrim/Oblivion I naturally expect the controls to be like M&B, then I'm disappointed when I remember that the controls are dated. M&B is just more intuitive and natural.

Avatar image for KHAndAnime
KHAndAnime

17565

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#23 KHAndAnime
Member since 2009 • 17565 Posts

i won't buy it, can't bear the style

CCpotter
The style of what specifically?
Avatar image for madrocketeer
madrocketeer

11193

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: -6

User Lists: 0

#24 madrocketeer
Member since 2005 • 11193 Posts
I've bought both Warband and With Fire & Sword, but I've hardly played either. Warband kept crashing on me for some reason, and I've been too busy with other games; I've just finished with Saint's Row: The Third, and already I'm moving on to Skyrim.
Avatar image for CaptainAhab13
CaptainAhab13

5121

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 6

User Lists: 0

#25 CaptainAhab13
Member since 2010 • 5121 Posts
It doesn't suit casual gamers, which unfortunately nowadays make up the bulk of the PC audience. There's actual depth to the combat, every movement, every keystroke from an expert player will have an intention behind it, footwork in itself is an art form in this game. Torque, angle of attack, and target's velocity relative to the user all mater for how damage is calculated, and to be part of a regiment is what true team work is about, where you may train for days on end, for months with dozens or even hundreds of players before your regiment can consider itself "ready". This game is made for the hardcore, if words/phrases like "difficulty", "depth", "steep learning curve", "robust combat and movement system" make you cringe, there's an exit over here, and an exit over here, it doesn't matter where you leave, but you have to go.Zubinen
Zubinen, I like your posts. Don't leave anytime soon. :)
Avatar image for kaealy
kaealy

2179

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#26 kaealy
Member since 2004 • 2179 Posts

Let's be honest. One shot to the leg generally won't make someone pass out...

Arthur96

..... One of the biggest arteries goes through the leg and the cheer shock from being hit from a muskeet would most likely make you pass out. You've played too many video game.

Avatar image for Elann2008
Elann2008

33028

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 17

User Lists: 0

#27 Elann2008
Member since 2007 • 33028 Posts
Mount and Blade is good but what's stopping it from being high quality, polished game? I'm guessing a decent budget. If it's sooo good.. why isn't a well-known publisher picking this one up and giving it the funds? It could use some backing.
Avatar image for Lucianu
Lucianu

10347

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 6

User Lists: 0

#28 Lucianu
Member since 2007 • 10347 Posts

Yes, it is a excellent game that is extremely addictive, wen i'm playing it i can't put it down for a good number of hours, just like with Civilization. One more fight. That's why i have taken a break from the game.

Though i play it with a number of mods installed, from were i pick one that suits my needs. The community is were this game shines, you get countless games into one.

Avatar image for trastamad03
trastamad03

4859

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#29 trastamad03
Member since 2006 • 4859 Posts
[Awkwardly raises 2h Axe and charges at the door] AAAAAAAArrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhh! [Dies]
Avatar image for Nick_Oh_Las
Nick_Oh_Las

25

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#30 Nick_Oh_Las
Member since 2011 • 25 Posts
Glad I ran into this post, I've been looking for a game to keep me busy over the holiday's. Downloading the demo now!
Avatar image for Mr_Ditters
Mr_Ditters

1920

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 43

User Lists: 0

#31 Mr_Ditters
Member since 2008 • 1920 Posts

Glad I ran into this post, I've been looking for a game to keep me busy over the holiday's. Downloading the demo now! Nick_Oh_Las

I didn't like the campaign so much. The multiplayer is where its at.

Avatar image for Zubinen
Zubinen

2555

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#32 Zubinen
Member since 2011 • 2555 Posts
Mount and Blade is good but what's stopping it from being high quality, polished game? I'm guessing a decent budget. If it's sooo good.. why isn't a well-known publisher picking this one up and giving it the funds? It could use some backing.Elann2008
It's being published by Paradox, the same guys that handle franchises like Sword of The Stars, Magicka, Penumbra, Hearts of Iron, and Supreme Ruler, but these are all niche franchises much like how Red Orchestra 2 is a niche game. M&B is a niche franchise but even then, even the very first M&B title(2007) does things(mods for competitive multiplayer, dynamic combat system, strong netcode allowing for massive multiplayer matches, mounted combat[Skyrim, the biggest RPG title to date doesn't have this :lol:], footwork and physics affecting weapon behavior[was the gold standard for swordplay until Warband was released]) that most AAA franchises in the genre struggle to even dream of, I'm not sure about you, but quality certainly isn't a complaint when this is still the case, mind you, even four years later. Again let me explain what a niche game is with an example of what happened with Volition, Inc. and RF4, RF4 is a high quality product, somehow issue free on PC even for MP matches as far as I've heard as well as experienced extensively(I'm talking about a level of polish on the PC version that isn't seen anywhere else) despite the stress based physics being far more complex to handle for MP than the standard fare in MP games, very strong gunplay that is currently the current gold standard for TPS that might only be surpassed by Rockstar's Max Payne 3, and it uses Geomod 2.5, the most advanced game engine for a current game that might only be surpassed by the MP3 engine, and yet even with massive funding, this game still had sales figures that suggested the game's audience has remained the same, similar to what we even saw with RF1, although the good part being that Geomod 3.0 is being developed and may be used for SR4 so it wasn't an entire waste, however it's clear that pouring money for a niche franchise is not a good idea for rather obvious reasons, since niche games do not bring in a new type of audience, but rather keep the old type of audience indefinitely, and this is especially the case with games catering to a hardcore audience or hyper hardcore audience in the case of franchises like RO and M&B.
Avatar image for KHAndAnime
KHAndAnime

17565

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#33 KHAndAnime
Member since 2009 • 17565 Posts

Mount and Blade is good but what's stopping it from being high quality, polished game? I'm guessing a decent budget. If it's sooo good.. why isn't a well-known publisher picking this one up and giving it the funds? It could use some backing.Elann2008
Because it's a niche title. If it's not gimmicky and doesn't guarantee some sort of financial success, publishers won't go anywhere near it. On top of that - I doubt they're even looking for a different publisher. The people who made this game obviously like to do things their own way (which would have to change if the game was being funded by a different publisher). I don't think this game even needs that extra layer of polish or better graphics.

It's fine how it is - and allows for maximum modularity. Has anyone here played the new huge update for the LOTR mod? I could probably sink a few dozen hours into that alone..

. And by the way, Zubinen, M&B didn't have any multiplayer until Warband came out. In fact, if you mentioned multiplayer in their forums back in 2007, you'd have been mocked and laughed at. You'd be told that multiplayer has no place in M&B. :P

Avatar image for Maroxad
Maroxad

25264

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#34 Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 25264 Posts

3 reasons not to purchase the game

  1. Lack of interest
  2. Already have it
  3. Waiting for Mount and Blade 2 (which has been loosely confirmed, but nothing more is known about it, except for speculations)

[QUOTE="Elann2008"]Mount and Blade is good but what's stopping it from being high quality, polished game? I'm guessing a decent budget. If it's sooo good.. why isn't a well-known publisher picking this one up and giving it the funds? It could use some backing.KHAndAnime

Because it's a niche title. If it's not gimmicky and doesn't guarantee some sort of financial success, publishers won't go anywhere near it. On top of that - I doubt they're even looking for a different publisher. The people who made this game obviously like to do things their own way (which would have to change if the game was being funded by a different publisher). I don't think this game even needs that extra layer of polish or better graphics.

It's fine how it is - and allows for maximum modularity. Has anyone here played the new huge update for the LOTR mod? I could probably sink a few dozen hours into that alone..

. And by the way, Zubinen, M&B didn't have any multiplayer until Warband came out. In fact, if you mentioned multiplayer in their forums back in 2007, you'd have been mocked and laughed at. You'd be told that multiplayer has no place in M&B. :P

They were looking for publishers as their funds went low, but no one accepted them and their game. They nearly had to close down the production of the game before it even launched. Thankfully Paradox picked them up before it got cancelled. There was a documentary in swedish about this, too bad I cannot find it.

Avatar image for ferrari2001
ferrari2001

17772

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 0

#35 ferrari2001
Member since 2008 • 17772 Posts
I thought the game was ok. Although I stopped playing, I was never a huge fan of the game. I play games more for the story though, and there isn't really a set storyline that I could follow through. Although fighting in the battles was mildly entertaining.
Avatar image for KHAndAnime
KHAndAnime

17565

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#36 KHAndAnime
Member since 2009 • 17565 Posts

3 reasons not to purchase the game

  1. Lack of interest
  2. Already have it
  3. Waiting for Mount and Blade 2 (which has been loosely confirmed, but nothing more is known about it, except for speculations)

[QUOTE="KHAndAnime"]

[QUOTE="Elann2008"]Mount and Blade is good but what's stopping it from being high quality, polished game? I'm guessing a decent budget. If it's sooo good.. why isn't a well-known publisher picking this one up and giving it the funds? It could use some backing.Maroxad

Because it's a niche title. If it's not gimmicky and doesn't guarantee some sort of financial success, publishers won't go anywhere near it. On top of that - I doubt they're even looking for a different publisher. The people who made this game obviously like to do things their own way (which would have to change if the game was being funded by a different publisher). I don't think this game even needs that extra layer of polish or better graphics.

It's fine how it is - and allows for maximum modularity. Has anyone here played the new huge update for the LOTR mod? I could probably sink a few dozen hours into that alone..

. And by the way, Zubinen, M&B didn't have any multiplayer until Warband came out. In fact, if you mentioned multiplayer in their forums back in 2007, you'd have been mocked and laughed at. You'd be told that multiplayer has no place in M&B. :P

They were looking for publishers as their funds went low, but no one accepted them and their game. They nearly had to close down the production of the game before it even launched. Thankfully Paradox picked them up before it got cancelled. There was a documentary in swedish about this, too bad I cannot find it.

Why would they cancel a game that they already make money from?
Avatar image for Maroxad
Maroxad

25264

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#37 Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 25264 Posts

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

3 reasons not to purchase the game

  1. Lack of interest
  2. Already have it
  3. Waiting for Mount and Blade 2 (which has been loosely confirmed, but nothing more is known about it, except for speculations)

[QUOTE="KHAndAnime"] Because it's a niche title. If it's not gimmicky and doesn't guarantee some sort of financial success, publishers won't go anywhere near it. On top of that - I doubt they're even looking for a different publisher. The people who made this game obviously like to do things their own way (which would have to change if the game was being funded by a different publisher). I don't think this game even needs that extra layer of polish or better graphics.

It's fine how it is - and allows for maximum modularity. Has anyone here played the new huge update for the LOTR mod? I could probably sink a few dozen hours into that alone..

. And by the way, Zubinen, M&B didn't have any multiplayer until Warband came out. In fact, if you mentioned multiplayer in their forums back in 2007, you'd have been mocked and laughed at. You'd be told that multiplayer has no place in M&B. :P

KHAndAnime

They were looking for publishers as their funds went low, but no one accepted them and their game. They nearly had to close down the production of the game before it even launched. Thankfully Paradox picked them up before it got cancelled. There was a documentary in swedish about this, too bad I cannot find it.

Why would they cancel a game that they already make money from?

The money made was not enough to make up for the development costs.

Avatar image for Zubinen
Zubinen

2555

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#39 Zubinen
Member since 2011 • 2555 Posts

[QUOTE="Elann2008"]Mount and Blade is good but what's stopping it from being high quality, polished game? I'm guessing a decent budget. If it's sooo good.. why isn't a well-known publisher picking this one up and giving it the funds? It could use some backing.KHAndAnime

Because it's a niche title. If it's not gimmicky and doesn't guarantee some sort of financial success, publishers won't go anywhere near it. On top of that - I doubt they're even looking for a different publisher. The people who made this game obviously like to do things their own way (which would have to change if the game was being funded by a different publisher). I don't think this game even needs that extra layer of polish or better graphics.

It's fine how it is - and allows for maximum modularity. Has anyone here played the new huge update for the LOTR mod? I could probably sink a few dozen hours into that alone..

. And by the way, Zubinen, M&B didn't have any multiplayer until Warband came out. In fact, if you mentioned multiplayer in their forums back in 2007, you'd have been mocked and laughed at. You'd be told that multiplayer has no place in M&B. :P

Ah excuse me for jumbling up that rather important detail :lol:, the rest still holds. I like the way Paradox games are progressing right now, also M&B has some mods for graphics wenches: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErDHtO08w1s&hd=1
Avatar image for KHAndAnime
KHAndAnime

17565

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#40 KHAndAnime
Member since 2009 • 17565 Posts

[QUOTE="KHAndAnime"][QUOTE="Maroxad"]

They were looking for publishers as their funds went low, but no one accepted them and their game. They nearly had to close down the production of the game before it even launched. Thankfully Paradox picked them up before it got cancelled. There was a documentary in swedish about this, too bad I cannot find it.

Maroxad

Why would they cancel a game that they already make money from?

The money made was not enough to make up for the development costs.

If they flat-out cancelled it - wouldn't that mean refunding the entire playerbase who paid for everything that has been done so far?
Avatar image for Maroxad
Maroxad

25264

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#41 Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 25264 Posts

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

[QUOTE="KHAndAnime"] Why would they cancel a game that they already make money from?KHAndAnime

The money made was not enough to make up for the development costs.

If they flat-out cancelled it - wouldn't that mean refunding the entire playerbase who paid for everything that has been done so far?

I dont remember quite, all I remember was that they had financial issues, they couldnt find a publisher and that the project was in trouble. Anyway, it all turned out great in the end. I might find that documentary again, hopefully.

The game would either be rushed or cancelled, that I dont know. Still, it is a good thing they did not come to that.