The Gamer's Bill Of Rights Decreed

This would be nice to have.

"Galactic Civilizations creator and Impulse digital distributor Stardock unveiled a pc-centric "Gamers' Bill of Rights".

"It's a series of guidelines we're trying to introduce in an effort to get our industry to be a little more standardized in how we deal with our games", Stardock's Brad Wardell explained.

Stardock is a new studio that co-developed Sins Of A Solar Empire and is currently partnering with Gas Powered Games on the upcoming Demigod.

The Gamers' Bill of Rights reads as follows:

1) Gamers shall have the right to return games that don't work with their computers for a full refund.
2) Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.
3) Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game's release.
4) Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.
5) Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will play adequately on that computer.
6) Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won't install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their consent.
7) Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.
8 ) Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.
9) Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.
10) Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.

Wardell is working on setting up an ESRB-type agency that would certify games adherence to the Gamers' Bill of Rights and he hopes that gamers won't buy games that doesn't carry the Gamers' Bill of Rights logo. The agency will be independent and won't be controlled by Stardock."

This needs to be announced to every forum. This is something extremely big, it can be industry-changing.

Spread the word, this needs to pick up!

some of those are nice, but it will never happen. I dont agree with some of it, mainly because well like gamers shall have the right to download the newest release of blah blah blah. IF that were possible, companys would go bankrupt and they wouldnt be making money. i dont agree with the part tht gamers have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state. For one if that were so it would leave no room for sequels, and 2 the guys making the game wouldnt have much room for what they want to do with the game, its like the gamers have control over the companys, and i guruantee if we did we'd take advantage of that power.

trust me thought its not going to happen now or ever. Like im saying only a couple things were wrong in that, the rest would be nice.

some of those are nice, but it will never happen. I dont agree with some of it, mainly because well like gamers shall have the right to download the newest release of blah blah blah. IF that were possible, companys would go bankrupt and they wouldnt be making money. i dont agree with the part tht gamers have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state. For one if that were so it would leave no room for sequels, and 2 the guys making the game wouldnt have much room for what they want to do with the game, its like the gamers have control over the companys, and i guruantee if we did we'd take advantage of that power.

trust me thought its not going to happen now or ever. Like im saying only a couple things were wrong in that, the rest would be nice.

SuperQ-2

The common conception of video games being ina finished state is this.. THe game has no bugs, no huge forsights that has released a broken game, or missing content that the dev promised but didn't release and only was added in later patchs..

Gamers do have control over the company.. WIth out us, the company would not exist.

some of those are nice, but it will never happen. I dont agree with some of it, mainly because well like gamers shall have the right to download the newest release of blah blah blah. IF that were possible, companys would go bankrupt and they wouldnt be making money.

SuperQ-2

It is possible, it's what Stardock does. And they wouldn't go bankrupt; it's not like there are huge quantities of people who lose their game and have to re-buy it.

i dont agree with the part tht gamers have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state. For one if that were so it would leave no room for sequels, and 2 the guys making the game wouldnt have much room for what they want to do with the game, its like the gamers have control over the companys, and i guruantee if we did we'd take advantage of that power.

SuperQ-2

"Finished" does not mean "concluded." They're talking about games that are released before the actual development process was fully completed, thus containing bugs and shoddy areas of the game that didn't get any polish, etc.

It sounds great however I don't agree with 3 and 7.

3 - That's being a little tyrannical imo. Not all developers have the resources to update their games with new content after release nor should they have to. And for some games - like adventure games, it's just not a plausible design choice.

7 - Again not everyone has the resources to do so. And it's the buyer's personal responsibility to keep up with their cds.

Overall it's nearly perfect. I'm grateful for a dev trying to make pc gaming better and this is honest way of doing it.

Stardock's rating on the awesome scale is dangerously high! :o

Seriously, this is a REALLY great idea, and it would be insanely good if it was actually put into effect.

It'll be great if PC game devs start embracing this.

I'm not sure if GSC Gameworld could, though. Some of the conditions on that bill probably aren't easy for them to meet. :(

It sounds great however I don't agree with 3 and 7.

3 - That's being a little tyrannical imo. Not all developers have the resources to update their games with new content after release nor should they have to. And for some games - like adventure games, it's just not a plausible design choice.

7 - Again not everyone has the resources to do so. And it's the buyer's personal responsibility to keep up with their cds.

Overall it's nearly perfect. I'm grateful for a dev trying to make pc gaming better and this is honest way of doing it.

Roris0A

I also have problem with #3 & #7

but not for the same reasons. What we are buying/ paying for is the GAME itself, dev. has no obligation whatsoever to provide anything more than a playble (finished) product. So, andy updates/added contents are bonus. if companies provide them and do it for free, reckon, they'll make their way to become more popular and liked game companies over time.

and the #7 situation, that's only for digital download I guess? as of now the convention is updating through patches, it should always be faster and easier than re-downloading the whole game again.

moreover, I think #1 needs certain clarification: on the retail box or digital download agreement should always clearly state the "working conditions": OS version, driver, video card and etc...for example, it'll be gamers' own fault if XP gamers go on to buy a clearly stated Vista only game; in this kind of situation, gamers have no right to demand any refund.

They forgot #11: All PC games should be Alt+Tab friendly. Gamers are not playing on consoles but on multi-tasking machines where they use external voice and chat programs like Ventrilo and Xfire. Not having access to configuring the applications while running a game is teh sucks.TheBigBadGRIM

not trying to advertise or anything but i want to point out this can already be done on XP (vista + 64 bit support coming later on) via the playxpert software

2) Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.
3) Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game's release.
04dcarraher

I think these two go against each other, a finished, polished product shouldn't need updates.

[QUOTE="TheBigBadGRIM"]They forgot #11: All PC games should be Alt+Tab friendly. Gamers are not playing on consoles but on multi-tasking machines where they use external voice and chat programs like Ventrilo and Xfire. Not having access to configuring the applications while running a game is teh sucks.Kh1ndjal

not trying to advertise or anything but i want to point out this can already be done on XP (vista + 64 bit support coming later on) via the playxpert software

I like this idea, but I'm going to have to say I disagree with #7, unless the game was purchased as a digital download to begin with. If it was bought as physical media, on a disc, then no, gamers should not expect to be able to download it in the future. A digital purchase, yes, you should be able to re-download the latest version of that game anytime you want.

I'm also not sure about #10. I don't see this one as being important, putting a disc in the drive doesn't bother me a bit. Instead, I'd replace it with something about there being no limitations on the number of times you can install and activate a game. That would be of greater interest to me.

[QUOTE="04dcarraher"]

2) Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.
3) Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game's release.
Sundodger04

I think these two go against each other, a finished, polished product shouldn't need updates.

they are not; "finished" means no need of "bug fix patches"; #3 means "newer" contents and such enhancements/updates not related to bugs.

as I pointed out, imo the problem of #3 isn't this, but that it's not dev.'s obligation to provide additional game contents.

How would a retailer be able to determine a game doesn't run on the persons computer? Such a "right" would increase the piracy rates 10X as much.

2) Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.

Developers don't have that "right", why should the consumers? The gaming industry is a business, a business does not run on hype alone. There is no such thing as a "finished" game in a developers mind, they are always going to want to fix and debate changes in the game. For smaller devlopers it can be unpleasant, being pushed to "finish" a game no matter how buggy it is... There is no such thing as a "perfect" game.

3) Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game's release.

What kind of updates are you expecting? Assuming your not contradicting yourself from the last point, I guess you mean added content? Either way it doesn't make any sense at all.

4) Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.

I have no clue what this one is all about. I've never encountered a game that required me to download a "download manager" and every game that has in-game updaters also allows for patch download from 3rd party sites. I suppose some of the SOE MMOs don't allow this, but you're talking about a VERY small minority.

5) Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will play adequately on that computer.

This is ridiculous. Minimum requirements are exactly what they sound like, the BARE mininum to play the game. In a lot of cases it means with the absolute lowest settings and framerates that may not exceed 20FPS, but the game runs. This has been the standard for well over a decade. If you want to run at decent settings at an acceptable framerate you need to look at the recommended requirements. Although in my opinion, if you have to look at the requirements its time for an upgrade anyways.

6) Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won't install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their consent.

I'll agree with this.

7) Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.

Ugh this again. Simply put, you don't *own* the game.... You own the license to install/play from the medium you originally purchased it for. Luckily digital distribution looks like it could be what you're looking for.

8 ) Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.

Unfortunately with the current piracy measures in place it's almost impossible to tell the difference anymore. Publishers want to their best to prevent their games from getting cracked so quickly (there is no solution), thus making legit buyers having to go through annoying procedures. I don't think we'll see a solution to this problem for many years.

9) Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.

Believe you already covered this in 8.

10) Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.

Again goes with 8 and 9. Its all about piracy protection. However as previously mentioned digital distribution does not require this. Don't worry, digital distribution is the VERY clear future of gaming.

Wow, incredibly stupid idea, sounds more like Pirate's bill of rights. It would pretty much destroy the industry, imagine how many people would keep the CD key, claim that the game doesn't work on their PC and get full refunds.

Developers would pretty much make no money.

This would be nice to have.

"Galactic Civilizations creator and Impulse digital distributor Stardock unveiled a pc-centric "Gamers' Bill of Rights".

"It's a series of guidelines we're trying to introduce in an effort to get our industry to be a little more standardized in how we deal with our games", Stardock's Brad Wardell explained.

Stardock is a new studio that co-developed Sins Of A Solar Empire and is currently partnering with Gas Powered Games on the upcoming Demigod.

The Gamers' Bill of Rights reads as follows:

1) Gamers shall have the right to return games that don't work with their computers for a full refund.
2) Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.
3) Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game's release.
4) Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.
5) Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will play adequately on that computer.
6) Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won't install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their consent.
7) Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.
8 ) Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.
9) Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.
10) Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.

Wardell is working on setting up an ESRB-type agency that would certify games adherence to the Gamers' Bill of Rights and he hopes that gamers won't buy games that doesn't carry the Gamers' Bill of Rights logo. The agency will be independent and won't be controlled by Stardock."

04dcarraher

4) Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.

04dcarraher

Somewhat hypocritic. To play The Political Machine 2008 online, you're forced to download Stardock's download manager known as "Impulse". If you want to play LAN, you're **** out of luck unless you buy 2 copies due to this. It only allows one serial key to have their game be updated within a period of time. I bought the game mainly just for LAN play too. I don't think I'll be buying that second copy.

EDIT: In fact, I'm pretty sure Stardock are the only ones who are even close to being in violation of this rule.

[QUOTE="04dcarraher"]

4) Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.

GodLovesDead

Somewhat hypocritic. To play The Political Machine 2008 online, you're forced to download Stardock's download manager known as "Impulse". If you want to play LAN, you're **** out of luck unless you buy 2 copies due to this. It only allows one serial key to have their game be updated within a period of time. I bought the game mainly just for LAN play too. I don't think I'll be buying that second copy.

EDIT: In fact, I'm pretty sure Stardock are the only ones who are even close to being in violation of this rule.

[QUOTE="GodLovesDead"][QUOTE="04dcarraher"]

4) Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.

Makari

Somewhat hypocritic. To play The Political Machine 2008 online, you're forced to download Stardock's download manager known as "Impulse". If you want to play LAN, you're **** out of luck unless you buy 2 copies due to this. It only allows one serial key to have their game be updated within a period of time. I bought the game mainly just for LAN play too. I don't think I'll be buying that second copy.

EDIT: In fact, I'm pretty sure Stardock are the only ones who are even close to being in violation of this rule.

It's still ridiculous that they restrict the game's functionality. And as for GalCiv2 and Sins, neither share the same restrictions as the Political Machine 2008 game. You can play those online without updating (I'm sure). And anyways, Steam is necessary.

I can realistically see one or two games per year releasing with the GBoR sticker on its cover, if that. And they will be games most people don't buy in the first place.

[QUOTE="Makari"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"][QUOTE="04dcarraher"]

4) Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.

GodLovesDead

Somewhat hypocritic. To play The Political Machine 2008 online, you're forced to download Stardock's download manager known as "Impulse". If you want to play LAN, you're **** out of luck unless you buy 2 copies due to this. It only allows one serial key to have their game be updated within a period of time. I bought the game mainly just for LAN play too. I don't think I'll be buying that second copy.

EDIT: In fact, I'm pretty sure Stardock are the only ones who are even close to being in violation of this rule.

It's still ridiculous that they restrict the game's functionality. And as for GalCiv2 and Sins, neither share the same restrictions as the Political Machine 2008 game. You can play those online without updating (I'm sure). And anyways, Steam is necessary.

at first i thought that sounded awesome. but if you read everyones arguments, it actually sucks mostly, and seems pretty pointless.

and pc gamers should really be allowed rent games. i know they can be ripped and pirated but so can dvds, and that business seems to be doing fine. feel free to correct me

i know they can be ripped and pirated but so can dvds, and that business seems to be doing fine. feel free to correct me

jpph

yes, and it's easier to rip DVDs.

but DVD as a whole is different business from PC games. Only simpliar or worthy of comparison would be those direct to video small productions from smaller studio.

Keep the ideas coming some are very good.

As with all laws...it would limit innovation to companies that could guarantee this sort of silliness.

Some of our best games were buggy as hell in the beginning. So with this is effect you would have never seen them. I am currently playing VAMPIRE:Bloodlines, I can guarantee with its history, it would have never seen the light of day.

Your list is to fascist for me. In the gaming world, you win some you lose some. Not every game should be guarenteed to satisfy you in every way.

As for the game working on minimum system specs, they do. Most systems have so much CRAP on them , they are running WAY slower then what they should for the specs. (try getting rid of AOL messenger, and not any background apps) Also minimum specs MEAN minimum, no flash, not speedy.

If you want all of this go buy a console. And get stuck playing the same level games for 4 years.

Does anyone else feel like this is Stardock being foolish? Lower budget niche titles are going to make a better profit ratio than larger budget games because big budget games are more well known and are more likely to be pirated by the common PC gamer. I would love to see Stardock start making big budget titles and notice how they are at a loss because their games were pirated beyond belief. GodLovesDead

Tell that to Valve with a straight face.

[QUOTE="GodLovesDead"]Does anyone else feel like this is Stardock being foolish? Lower budget niche titles are going to make a better profit ratio than larger budget games because big budget games are more well known and are more likely to be pirated by the common PC gamer. I would love to see Stardock start making big budget titles and notice how they are at a loss because their games were pirated beyond belief. PunishedOne

Tell that to Valve with a straight face.

8 ) Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.

amen.