Warcraft -vs- Warhammer

Warhammer is much better universe, but Warcraft has better gamesAdrianWerner

This is about the universe. So please, only vote what lore/setting you prefer. I agee though, Warcraft games are typically more fun.

I actually prefer the Warhammer 40K universe, but if that isnt an option I say the original warhammer. I didnt like the way Blizzard protrayed as 'misunderstood'. That doesnt do it, to me orcs are cruel, strong, primative, warlike and profoundly stupid.

I actually prefer the Warhammer 40K universe, but if that isnt an option I say the original warhammer. I didnt like the way Blizzard protrayed as 'misunderstood'. That doesnt do it, to me orcs are cruel, strong, primative, warlike and profoundly stupid.

mmarsh1972

One of the things I like about the warcraft universe is the relationship between the orcs and tha tauren. They share such a brotherly bond, sort of Like big brother, little brother. Ones and ancient race, whom made their home in Kalimdor for ages, another is a new race to kalimdor, one who made it just in time to save the Tauren from the brink of extinction. You could really see this sort of relationship when you see the chieftain of the tauren interact with the warchief of the horde.

Although I'm just talking about the things that I like about the warcraft universe. I've not been exposed to anything warhammer, that's not 40k.

I far prefer Warhammer. It's darker, more mature and more brutal. Warhammer has lots of awesome gothic imagery that's very reminiscent of the Dark Age while WarCraft seems to be almost the opposite. It's very cartoony, very clean and uses a lot of bright colours and its character models almost seem like charicatures.

This is Warhammer art:

and this is WarCraft art:

It's the difference in tone, the styIe of the art and the maturity and the brutality of the universe than makes Warhammer appeal to me. Magic also seems wilder and more devastating in Warhammer, which appeals to me a lot more as well.

warhammer has much more storyline in the codices and manuals etc. etc.

warcraft isn't bad (in fact it's very good), it's just not as epic.

I far prefer Warhammer. It's darker, more mature and more brutal. Warhammer has lots of awesome gothic imagery that's very reminiscent of the Dark Age while WarCraft seems to be almost the opposite. It's very cartoony, very clean and uses a lot of bright colours and its character models almost seem like charicatures.

This is Warhammer art:

and this is WarCraft art:

It's the difference in tone, the styIe of the art and the maturity and the brutality of the universe than makes Warhammer appeal to me. Magic also seems wilder and more devastating in Warhammer, which appeals to me a lot more as well.

mfsa

thats warhammer being compared to wow, i dont think the diference is so big when comparing DoW to Warcraft(RTS) still Dow is indeed a bit more darker.

still i like Warcraft 3 better then dow simply because of the battle.net , user interface multiplayer matchs and custom maps on battle.net is something that no developer has managed to matcb yet.

now about the single player i like both, but i do like DoW a little bit more

overall Warcraft, due to online only

[QUOTE="mfsa"]

I far prefer Warhammer. It's darker, more mature and more brutal. Warhammer has lots of awesome gothic imagery that's very reminiscent of the Dark Age while WarCraft seems to be almost the opposite. It's very cartoony, very clean and uses a lot of bright colours and its character models almost seem like charicatures.

This is Warhammer art:

and this is WarCraft art:

It's the difference in tone, the styIe of the art and the maturity and the brutality of the universe than makes Warhammer appeal to me. Magic also seems wilder and more devastating in Warhammer, which appeals to me a lot more as well.

Mizarus

thats warhammer being compared to wow, i dont think the diference is so big when comparing DoW to Warcraft(RTS) still Dow is indeed a bit more darker.

still i like Warcraft 3 better then dow simply because of the battle.net , user interface multiplayer matchs and custom maps on battle.net is something that no developer has managed to matcb yet.

now about the single player i like both, but i do like DoW a little bit more

overall Warcraft, due to online only

The question was the universe, not the games. And he's asking about Warhammer, not Wathammer 40K. Admittedly, I did use WoW art, but I think it accurately reflects the tone of the universe. All WarCraft games are cartoony, and that's all we can judge it by because there's no real fluff that I'm aware of. Artistic fluff, I mean.

Warhammer of course. The reason should be obvious.

Did somebody say Warhammer 40K?

oooooh yeah baby

Warcraft. I don't like alot the human reigns or forces in Warhammer Fantasy or the other factions except maybe the Chaos Dwarves; in the other hand in Warcraft Illidan, Arthas, Hellscream... are all impressive characters.

But I like much more the universe of Diablo, Starcraft and WH 40K than the one from Warcraft or Warhammer.

those pics are win but this is Warcraft and Warhammer Fantasy.

ill have to say Warhammer fantasy, its far more brutal than the cartoony warcraft universe.

Warcraft - Not all Orcs are Evil!Tuzolord

Orcs themselves are never evil in fantasy. At least, not naturally. They are just stupid animals that are easy to control. Good and evil doesn't enter into it.

Take a lion as an example. A lion may kill and eat you, but it has nothing to do with good and evil - the very concept doesn't exist to a lion, so when people look at the actions of lions, they don't use concepts like good and evil.

The same is true of Orcs in my opinion.

[QUOTE="Mizarus"][QUOTE="mfsa"]

I far prefer Warhammer. It's darker, more mature and more brutal. Warhammer has lots of awesome gothic imagery that's very reminiscent of the Dark Age while WarCraft seems to be almost the opposite. It's very cartoony, very clean and uses a lot of bright colours and its character models almost seem like charicatures.

This is Warhammer art:

and this is WarCraft art:

It's the difference in tone, the styIe of the art and the maturity and the brutality of the universe than makes Warhammer appeal to me. Magic also seems wilder and more devastating in Warhammer, which appeals to me a lot more as well.

mfsa

thats warhammer being compared to wow, i dont think the diference is so big when comparing DoW to Warcraft(RTS) still Dow is indeed a bit more darker.

still i like Warcraft 3 better then dow simply because of the battle.net , user interface multiplayer matchs and custom maps on battle.net is something that no developer has managed to matcb yet.

now about the single player i like both, but i do like DoW a little bit more

overall Warcraft, due to online only

The question was the universe, not the games. And he's asking about Warhammer, not Wathammer 40K. Admittedly, I did use WoW art, but I think it accurately reflects the tone of the universe. All WarCraft games are cartoony, and that's all we can judge it by because there's no real fluff that I'm aware of. Artistic fluff, I mean.

then it depends, WoW completely killed the Warcraft lore for me, but Warcraft2-Warcraft3 had amazing stories, like its already been mentioned above all races on WC world dont follow templates where they need to be evil,good or neutral thus making it more belivible, ive played all the warcrafts and only 1 DoW game, so i have to say WC even tho i had more fun on the DoW Campaing i can remember a a lot more of what happend on War1-3 then i remember about the DoW game, so id say warcraft but i like them both and iam looking foward DoW2

I far prefer Warhammer. It's darker, more mature and more brutal. Warhammer has lots of awesome gothic imagery that's very reminiscent of the Dark Age while WarCraft seems to be almost the opposite. It's very cartoony, very clean and uses a lot of bright colours and its character models almost seem like charicatures.

This is Warhammer art:

and this is WarCraft art:

It's the difference in tone, the styIe of the art and the maturity and the brutality of the universe than makes Warhammer appeal to me. Magic also seems wilder and more devastating in Warhammer, which appeals to me a lot more as well.

mfsa

I can do that, too.

Warcraft art:

Warhammer:

[QUOTE="Tuzolord"]Warcraft - Not all Orcs are Evil!mfsa

Orcs themselves are never evil in fantasy. At least, not naturally. They are just stupid animals that are easy to control. Good and evil doesn't enter into it.

Take a lion as an example. A lion may kill and eat you, but it has nothing to do with good and evil - the very concept doesn't exist to a lion, so when people look at the actions of lions, they don't use concepts like good and evil.

The same is true of Orcs in my opinion.

Orcs are not Animals, their the same as Human just look different. Atleast thats how it is in Warcraft.

[QUOTE="mfsa"]

[QUOTE="Tuzolord"]Warcraft - Not all Orcs are Evil!Tuzolord

Orcs themselves are never evil in fantasy. At least, not naturally. They are just stupid animals that are easy to control. Good and evil doesn't enter into it.

Take a lion as an example. A lion may kill and eat you, but it has nothing to do with good and evil - the very concept doesn't exist to a lion, so when people look at the actions of lions, they don't use concepts like good and evil.

The same is true of Orcs in my opinion.

Orcs are not Animals, their the same as Human just look different. Atleast thats how it is in Warcraft.

[QUOTE="Tuzolord"][QUOTE="mfsa"]

[QUOTE="Tuzolord"]Warcraft - Not all Orcs are Evil!Vfanek

Orcs themselves are never evil in fantasy. At least, not naturally. They are just stupid animals that are easy to control. Good and evil doesn't enter into it.

Take a lion as an example. A lion may kill and eat you, but it has nothing to do with good and evil - the very concept doesn't exist to a lion, so when people look at the actions of lions, they don't use concepts like good and evil.

The same is true of Orcs in my opinion.

Orcs are not Animals, their the same as Human just look different. Atleast thats how it is in Warcraft.

Which still doesnt make them Animals.

Mizarus, how did WoW kill the Warcraft lore? fits well to me ...Meu2k7

i guess you never played the wc3 campaing, give me a minute il try to sum it up for you

[QUOTE="Meu2k7"]Mizarus, how did WoW kill the Warcraft lore? fits well to me ...Mizarus

i guess you never played the wc3 campaing, give me a minute il try to sum it up for you

Yup I have, minor things change, but it all makes sense ... theres nothing majorly out of place that I can think of.

Other than Perhaps Kel Thuzad's random attack >> ...

[QUOTE="Vfanek"][QUOTE="Tuzolord"][QUOTE="mfsa"]

[QUOTE="Tuzolord"]Warcraft - Not all Orcs are Evil!Tuzolord

Orcs themselves are never evil in fantasy. At least, not naturally. They are just stupid animals that are easy to control. Good and evil doesn't enter into it.

Take a lion as an example. A lion may kill and eat you, but it has nothing to do with good and evil - the very concept doesn't exist to a lion, so when people look at the actions of lions, they don't use concepts like good and evil.

The same is true of Orcs in my opinion.

Orcs are not Animals, their the same as Human just look different. Atleast thats how it is in Warcraft.

Which still doesnt make them Animals.

What is it that separates them from animals in your opinion?

I can do that, too.

Warcraft art:

Warhammer:

BladeMaster84

Except that box art does not accurately convey the tone of WarCraft, and that Warhammer picture does not accurately convey the tone of Warhammer. The pictures I linked were convenient visual examples of a legitimate point - a point you clearly missed. Simply linking pictures is meaningless.

[QUOTE="Mizarus"]

[QUOTE="Meu2k7"]Mizarus, how did WoW kill the Warcraft lore? fits well to me ...Meu2k7

i guess you never played the wc3 campaing, give me a minute il try to sum it up for you

Yup I have, minor things change, but it all makes sense ... theres nothing majorly out of place that I can think of.

Other than Perhaps Kel Thuzad's random attack >> ...

well i dont really like how they keep ressurecting main baddies(with no logic expanation) so we can kill them, also they seem to ignore that Thrall and Jania were allied by the end of War3, army, i havent played wow for for a long time now so iam tryng to remember all the little things that slowly killed the lore to me,but i cant remember much of it now(i accuatly never played the Burning Crusade), but i remember the quests and instances were filled with plot holes, its an mmo so i guess its ok, but if they ever work on a Warcraft 4 i just hope they ignore everything that they created for WoW

because if they dont i cant belive they are going to allow players to kill the Lich King, my main problem with all those changes is that if you killed him on the mmo, that means they died on the main story as well right? meaning if they ever make an sequel for the RTS we will either play trough a story similar as how the story develops on the mmo, or they will just skip it, so i just rather they ignore it.

iam really not good in explaining myself but anyway i hope you manage to get something out of this =p, also the English might be lacking because its not my first language so sorry about that.

[QUOTE="Tuzolord"][QUOTE="Vfanek"][QUOTE="Tuzolord"][QUOTE="mfsa"]

[QUOTE="Tuzolord"]Warcraft - Not all Orcs are Evil!mfsa

Orcs themselves are never evil in fantasy. At least, not naturally. They are just stupid animals that are easy to control. Good and evil doesn't enter into it.

Take a lion as an example. A lion may kill and eat you, but it has nothing to do with good and evil - the very concept doesn't exist to a lion, so when people look at the actions of lions, they don't use concepts like good and evil.

The same is true of Orcs in my opinion.

Orcs are not Animals, their the same as Human just look different. Atleast thats how it is in Warcraft.

Which still doesnt make them Animals.

What is it that separates them from animals in your opinion?

hm they can reason, talk, learn, build houses , form bounds, develop technology, on warcraft they are pretty much on par with humanos socialy and techology speaking, they are just a more spiritual race then humans are

(the alliance tech is developed by gnomes and goblins not humans right? if not i take the technology part back)

Anyways Mizarus I saw your post you briefly put up, here goes:

1) Thrall & Jaina Proudmoore alliance:

Remember the bonus campaign? "Building of Ogrimmar" in Throzen Throne, though it was never said, it was obvious that bonus campaign was a Prologue to World of Warcraft ... completly Quest/RPG focused.

Killing Jaina Proudmoores father sparks "The 4th War" so to speak ... in the WoW Opening Movie "The Tenious pact between the Horde and Alliance has all but evoprated" ... its a continuation on, Jaina's fathers attack is in the name of the Alliance, the alliance breaks the pact ( Un-willingly ) by her father attacking the Horde....

2) Reviving bad guys? Who?

Illidan Stormage - Was not killed by Arthas , Illidan seeing as he failed to stop Arthas flees into Outland to avoid death by Kil'jaedan.

Kel Thuzad - Arthas left Kel Thuzad to manage Strathholme ....... ( Unless im fergetting something, I cant remember any of the Human campaign in Frozen Throne ).

Kael'thas - ... Kael'Thas doesnt die ... well you kill him, but ingame that just means hes defeated, no cut-schene or story portrayed him as dead.

Lady Vashj - same story.... they all retreat to Outlands in the name of Illidan.

Kil'jaedan - was never directly involved, but now in patch 2.4 of the Burning Crusade he has manipulated Kael'thas into believeing that he can bring back the Sunwell ... and Kil'jaedan as the leader of the Burning legion will die in the "Sunwell Platuea" instance ... thus ending the Burning Crusade.

Archimonde - Hes dead yes, you fight him in WoW ... but in "The Caverns of Time..." you go back to the past to stop the "Chromatic Flight" from altering History, and you end up killing Archimonde with both the Horde/Alliance.

[QUOTE="BladeMaster84"]

I can do that, too.

Warcraft art:

Except that box art does not accurately convey the tone of WarCraft, and that Warhammer picture does not accurately convey the tone of Warhammer. The pictures I linked were convenient visual examples of a legitimate point - a point you clearly missed. Simply linking pictures is meaningless.

mfsa

yea but that wow pic was also a cheap shot, check out the war3 concept art, it not might as dark as warhammer is, but the difference its not that big

http://www.blizzard.com/shared/blizz-com/images/war3/conceptart/abomination-large.jpg

[QUOTE="mfsa"][QUOTE="Tuzolord"][QUOTE="Vfanek"][QUOTE="Tuzolord"][QUOTE="mfsa"]

[QUOTE="Tuzolord"]Warcraft - Not all Orcs are Evil!Mizarus

Orcs themselves are never evil in fantasy. At least, not naturally. They are just stupid animals that are easy to control. Good and evil doesn't enter into it.

Take a lion as an example. A lion may kill and eat you, but it has nothing to do with good and evil - the very concept doesn't exist to a lion, so when people look at the actions of lions, they don't use concepts like good and evil.

The same is true of Orcs in my opinion.

Orcs are not Animals, their the same as Human just look different. Atleast thats how it is in Warcraft.

Which still doesnt make them Animals.

What is it that separates them from animals in your opinion?

hm they can reason, talk, learn, build houses , form bounds, develop technology, on warcraft they are pretty much on par with humanos socialy and techology speaking, they are just a more spiritual race then humans are

(the alliance tech is developed by gnomes and goblins not humans right? if not i take the technology part back)

exactly

Anyways Mizarus I saw your post you briefly put up, here goes:

1) Thrall & Jaina Proudmoore alliance:

Remember the bonus campaign? "Building of Ogrimmar" in Throzen Throne, though it was never said, it was obvious that bonus campaign was a Prologue to World of Warcraft ... completly Quest/RPG focused.

Killing Jaina Proudmoores father sparks "The 4th War" so to speak ... in the WoW Opening Movie "The Tenious pact between the Horde and Alliance has all but evoprated" ... its a continuation on, Jaina's fathers attack is in the name of the Alliance, the alliance breaks the pact ( Un-willingly ) by her father attacking the Horde....

2) Reviving bad guys? Who?

Illidan Stormage - Was not killed by Arthas , Illidan seeing as he failed to stop Arthas flees into Outland to avoid death by Kil'jaedan.

Kel Thuzad - Arthas left Kel Thuzad to manage Strathholme ....... ( Unless im fergetting something, I cant remember any of the Human campaign in Frozen Throne ).

Kael'thas - ... Kael'Thas doesnt die ... well you kill him, but ingame that just means hes defeated, no cut-schene or story portrayed him as dead.

Lady Vashj - same story.... they all retreat to Outlands in the name of Illidan.

Kil'jaedan - was never directly involved, but now in patch 2.4 of the Burning Crusade he has manipulated Kael'thas into believeing that he can bring back the Sunwell ... and Kil'jaedan as the leader of the Burning legion will die in the "Sunwell Platuea" instance ... thus ending the Burning Crusade.

Archimonde - Hes dead yes, you fight him in WoW ... but in "The Caverns of Time..." you go back to the past to stop the "Chromatic Flight" from altering History, and you end up killing Archimonde with both the Horde/Alliance.

Meu2k7

hm i forgot about the thrall/Jaina thing.

maybe i should go trough again and read the logs more carrefully next time i might have skipped something since you seem to know pretty much every detail i tought it was missing.

still one thing i cant quite forgive is that Blizzard should have gave a better closure on IllidanVsArthas fight i always suposed he was dead, why would Arthas spare him? but overall yeah i agree with you, i over exagerated on the hate, i might give it a second chance once the lich king comes out i still have a few friends playng it afterall.

also i still have 1 concearn about the lore, on WoW the main baddies all end up dead, sure on WoW they all get up again and ready to be slained by the next party, but they do die as you finish the quest(most of them anyway) so i just hope blizzard just ignore they ever got killed on WoW

Yea they do die off story wise, in a way its a good thing Illidan was not killed by Arthas, the Expansion has beenv ery well done in terms of lore ... and improved most of the game over Vanilla ( also made it more casual friendly .... more accessible, and gear types for all specs ect ).

But Arthas killing Illidan would have been boring ;) Maeve Shadowsong chased him endlessly it was better for him to die at her hands , as he did , I can give you the dialogue of the illidan fight, seeing as ive killed him a dozen times:

Once you take Illidan down to 40% health, he casts an AoE spell, paralyzing your entire raid party:

Illidan Stormrage: Is this is mortals? Is this all the fury you can muster!?

* Maeve Shadowsong "blinks" into the battle *.

Maeve Shadowsong: "They're Fury pales before mine Illidan, we have some unfinished buisness between us!"

Illidan Stormrage: Maeve....? How is it even possible!?

Maeve Shadowsong:" .... my long hunt is finally over, today justice will be done!"

* Maeve frees your raid from the paralyzing, spell and attacks Illidan with you, she also sets her trademark trap to trap him now and then ... fight continues *

Maeve Shadowsong: "THAT is for Niasha! Bleed as I have Bled!"

* Illidan Transforms into Giant Dark Demon mode ( Because of the skull of guldan) *

Illidan Stormrage:"BEHOLD! The Power ... of the Demon within!"

Illidan Stormrage: " Feel the hatred of ten thousand years " ect ect.

*Illidan reaches 0%*

Maeve Shadowsong:"Ah its finished.... Illidan .. you are defeated!"

Illidan Stormrage: "How is it even possible!? ....... Maeve... you have won ... but the huntress is NOTHING without the hunt, you are nothing without me ...."

*Illidan Dies*

Maeve Shadowsong: "Hes right .... I feel nothing ... I am nothing ... farewell Champions"

*blinks out* ... the end.

Haha I know ... I'm a big Warcraft nerd... :P

[QUOTE="mfsa"][QUOTE="Tuzolord"][QUOTE="Vfanek"][QUOTE="Tuzolord"][QUOTE="mfsa"]

[QUOTE="Tuzolord"]Warcraft - Not all Orcs are Evil!Mizarus

Orcs themselves are never evil in fantasy. At least, not naturally. They are just stupid animals that are easy to control. Good and evil doesn't enter into it.

Take a lion as an example. A lion may kill and eat you, but it has nothing to do with good and evil - the very concept doesn't exist to a lion, so when people look at the actions of lions, they don't use concepts like good and evil.

The same is true of Orcs in my opinion.

Orcs are not Animals, their the same as Human just look different. Atleast thats how it is in Warcraft.

Which still doesnt make them Animals.

What is it that separates them from animals in your opinion?

hm they can reason, talk, learn, build houses , form bounds, develop technology, on warcraft they are pretty much on par with humanos socialy and techology speaking, they are just a more spiritual race then humans are

(the alliance tech is developed by gnomes and goblins not humans right? if not i take the technology part back)

Many animals can do some or all of the above in varying degrees (with the possible exception of reason - but that debatebly depends on how you define reason), but those animals might also kill you without provocation - but no one would ever call the animals evil, or good.

My point is simply that good and evil are abstract concepts that humans have created based on ethical principles that apply to humans. How can we define a different species using our own principles? They may not be animals, but they are definitly not humans, and the instinctive (and, if it exists, ethical) attributes of any species must be judged appropriately and uniquely based on the characteristics of that species. They may be feral and violent, but the concepts of good and evil would not apply to them, it would simply be their nature to be violent.

[QUOTE="Mizarus"][QUOTE="mfsa"][QUOTE="Tuzolord"][QUOTE="Vfanek"][QUOTE="Tuzolord"][QUOTE="mfsa"]

[QUOTE="Tuzolord"]Warcraft - Not all Orcs are Evil!mfsa

Orcs themselves are never evil in fantasy. At least, not naturally. They are just stupid animals that are easy to control. Good and evil doesn't enter into it.

Take a lion as an example. A lion may kill and eat you, but it has nothing to do with good and evil - the very concept doesn't exist to a lion, so when people look at the actions of lions, they don't use concepts like good and evil.

The same is true of Orcs in my opinion.

Orcs are not Animals, their the same as Human just look different. Atleast thats how it is in Warcraft.

Which still doesnt make them Animals.

What is it that separates them from animals in your opinion?

hm they can reason, talk, learn, build houses , form bounds, develop technology, on warcraft they are pretty much on par with humanos socialy and techology speaking, they are just a more spiritual race then humans are

(the alliance tech is developed by gnomes and goblins not humans right? if not i take the technology part back)

Many animals can do some or all of the above in varying degrees (with the possible exception of reason - but that debatebly depends on how you define reason), but those animals might also kill you without provocation - but no one would ever call the animals evil, or good.

My point is simply that good and evil are abstract concepts that humans have created based on ethical principles that apply to humans. How can we define a different species using our own principles? They may not be animals, but they are definitly not humans, and the instinctive (and, if it exists, ethical) attributes of any species must be judged appropriately and uniquely based on the characteristics of that species. They may be feral and violent, but the concepts of good and evil would not apply to them, it would simply be their nature to be violent.

because orcs on warcraft abide by their own laws and abide by abstract concepts as well, they have their religions politics and all this shabamg, thus making them apart from animals

[QUOTE="mfsa"][QUOTE="Mizarus"][QUOTE="mfsa"][QUOTE="Tuzolord"][QUOTE="Vfanek"][QUOTE="Tuzolord"][QUOTE="mfsa"]

[QUOTE="Tuzolord"]Warcraft - Not all Orcs are Evil!Mizarus

Orcs themselves are never evil in fantasy. At least, not naturally. They are just stupid animals that are easy to control. Good and evil doesn't enter into it.

Take a lion as an example. A lion may kill and eat you, but it has nothing to do with good and evil - the very concept doesn't exist to a lion, so when people look at the actions of lions, they don't use concepts like good and evil.

The same is true of Orcs in my opinion.

Orcs are not Animals, their the same as Human just look different. Atleast thats how it is in Warcraft.

Which still doesnt make them Animals.

What is it that separates them from animals in your opinion?

hm they can reason, talk, learn, build houses , form bounds, develop technology, on warcraft they are pretty much on par with humanos socialy and techology speaking, they are just a more spiritual race then humans are

(the alliance tech is developed by gnomes and goblins not humans right? if not i take the technology part back)

Many animals can do some or all of the above in varying degrees (with the possible exception of reason - but that debatebly depends on how you define reason), but those animals might also kill you without provocation - but no one would ever call the animals evil, or good.

My point is simply that good and evil are abstract concepts that humans have created based on ethical principles that apply to humans. How can we define a different species using our own principles? They may not be animals, but they are definitly not humans, and the instinctive (and, if it exists, ethical) attributes of any species must be judged appropriately and uniquely based on the characteristics of that species. They may be feral and violent, but the concepts of good and evil would not apply to them, it would simply be their nature to be violent.

because orcs on warcraft abide by their own laws and abide by abstract concepts as well, they have their religions politics and all this shabamg, thus making them apart from animals

Exactly - their own laws and ethics. So they can't be judged by the standards of humans. My point is not that orcs are or are not animals (I just threw that in), my point is that they are neither good nor evil by human standards - because they cannot be judged by human standards.

Exactly - their own laws and ethics. So they can't be judged by the standards of humans. My point is not that orcs are or are not animals (I just threw that in), my point is that they are neither good nor evil by human standards - because they cannot be judged by human standards.

of course they can, they share the same world, if they act in a way that offed the humans they get into war, its pretty much the same thing as having multiple nations, they share the same world, their actions have impact upon each other

[quote="mfsa"]

Exactly - their own laws and ethics. So they can't be judged by the standards of humans. My point is not that orcs are or are not animals (I just threw that in), my point is that they are neither good nor evil by human standards - because they cannot be judged by human standards.

Mizarus

of course they can, they share the same world, if they act in a way that offed the humans they get into war, its pretty much the same thing as having multiple nations, they share the same world, their actions have impact upon each other

I agree with everything you said, and nothing you said is contrary to my belief.

Humans could also get into a war (of sorts) with wild animals, but no action the animals take could be viewed as either good or evil by humans.

Orcs are clearly more human than animal (which is quite stupid debate in the first place since humans are animals themselves)and in some lore they're clearly "evil." In WH40K, for example, they kill and pillage without mercy and for no reason other than for the sake of killing.F1_2004

what the guy above you meant(iam guessing here so correct me if i got your point of view wrong), is that killing for no reason, isnt considered evil, but its considered fun, its another culture, some things might be considered evil by a culture and be perfectly normal in others.

and yes humans are animals, but i tought everyone could understand what we meant by "animals" and "humans" in the discussions