where is my 1080p?

This topic is locked from further discussion.

Avatar image for stele29
stele29

551

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#1 stele29
Member since 2008 • 551 Posts

Hi all. Obviously this post is about 1080p. Personally, i'm extremely upset over it. Not in the context over whether or not a particular games uses it, but more over how Sony and Microsoft both sold us bowl full of empty dreams in regards to the capabilities of their consoles. I'll get to the point.

When the PS3 and 360 began development, there were no 1080P televisions in households. The standard HD resolution was 720p, which in itself was underused because dvd's run at 480P so, with exception of those with HD cable/satellite, our HD tvs were not being used the way they were intended. But it was fine, because it was felt that when HD did come out, our tvs would be ready to go. Thus, both companies basically took a snapshot of what was considered an medium to high end PC at the time, and basically set a target performance point at these levels. It is no secret that the graphics chips used in the PS3 and 360 were lifted directly from what ATI and Nvidia had in circulation at the time, except that they were customized for console use.

At this point, Microsoft and Sony both decided they were going to aim for a 720P console, with the capabilities of scaling to 1080i if the tv supported it. But 720p was the sweet spot, as this was the "native" resolution of most HD tvs in existance at the time and was ideal. There was nothing wrong with that. In fact, HD-DVD was designed with this in mind also, which is why it didn't support 1080p at release, as it wasn't necessary..considering 1080i televisions operate at 30 FPS if you consider that each half takes up one frame (60 FPS for progressive) and that movies run at 24 FPS.

The major issue came when blu-ray was announced. Sony decided that they would release a new standard that would run at 1080P. This was a ballsy move, considering that 1080P televisions were not mainstream...but it was a ploy to downplay HD-DVD, which had a max resolution of "merely" 1080i.

Now to the LIE.

With sony pushing blu-ray it was announced that the console would support 1080P, in order to bring Blu-ray into the mainstream on the backs of its buyers. This is why the console was delayed. If they had stayed DVD and stayed the path with Microsoft, they would have been released concurrently, probably with less problems...and the PS3 would have decimated the 360, which during its first year had horrific problems. What saved it was Sony's bad business decisions, which later saved the 360. The 360 is doing well now, and rightfully so, because there is no questions the catalog is strong, and a console is worth the sum of its parts. The PS2 would have died without its games, because it had massive problems at launch also.

The truth is that the 360 and PS3 were designed and optimized for 720P gameplay. They were never supposed to do 1080P. At least the 360 is honest about it, and Microsoft went public with the fact that the 360 scales ALL games up to 1080P (which may I add it does beautifully). Also, with a 1080P performance point, sony gambled on saying that the PS3 was better than PCs because it could do 1920X1080 (1080P) where most computers were running at 1280X1024 or 1600X1200. (Some other pcs run at 1024X768 due to limitations, but notice its still higher than 720P).

Well, today my computer can do 1920X1200 at 60 FPS, and thats not even a super high end PC. Why is this important? Because earlier on with the release of 720P games such as Rainbow Six : Vegas 2 and Uncharted, no one complained because the box was honest about it...they ran at 720P and the game would default at that. No harm no foul.

Well, Grand Theft Auto IV is release. The box claims it can play at native 1080P. Guess what, it doesn't. Its a lie. Rockstar admits its a 720P game. In fact, the only way to run at 1080P is to "force" the console by removing options from its resolution selector. Why would they post of the box that it supports this if it was designed that way. Second, even at 720P, it is obviously the PS3 (and 360 for that matter) is too underpowered to play the game as visioned. Excessive mip-mapping, low res (blurry) tectures, low LOS (line of sight) distance. Prologue supports 1080P, yet we must deal with tearing, popin, and any number of other problems no PC player would ever let fly. Terms like V-sync, anti-aliasing, anisotropic filtering mean nothing to Sony and Microsoft, because these consoles can't do it...or they can only if they limited the area (Ninja Guiden Sigma..beautiful but notice how little is actually on screen). Tearing is apparent.....the fix is simple...force v-sync (bioshock), but they can't...why? because they only put 512 MB of SHARED memory in the console...the same for the X-box. For V-sync to run properly, you need triple buffering, which was an oversight at design considering you require a bit more ram.

In order to prevent tearing, there is an attempt to keep the FPS as close to 60 as often as possible, but it is not perfect, and a poorly optimized engine will also reveal v-sync problems..which is a newly quantified issue that showed up as CRTs were removed and LCDs became mainstream.

What is the truth? We will never see non-scaled 1080P game play with the PS3 and 360, simply because they are neither powerful enough or have enough memory to store the high resolution textures necessary for 1080P native. Storage capacity in the form of disc space is completely irrelevant. Blu-ray doesn' t make the PS3 more powerful...it only gives the developer more space to store data that is be used later during gameplay.

Scaling is a way of faking it, and players should not be satisifed with "good enough" or "you really can't tell unless you look". Corners are being cut in order to make it work. Its time to beat down the door and tell Sony and Microsoft to give us what we paid for....True native 1080P games, and if it can't be done, we want our money back. Sony knows the weakness because in an interview the CEO said that the PS4 will not be released sooner than Januard 2010. Notice its only about 2 years. Even if its 3 years, thats a farcry from the life the PS2 enjoyed.

I own a PS3 and 360 so i'm not partial. I'm just going for the facts. Every time I start GTAIV I cringe. not because the gameplay sucks, but because every time i see though low res graphics, yet they claim 1080P. I think about how much I just got shafted when my two year old PC and play Crysis at 1920X1200..........personally I think its BS.

This is not a format war. I am simply trying to bring to light a trend where companies are either not telling us all the facts or making promises they can't keep. All I ask is honesty. If a game is created for 720P, stick only that on the box. Its common sense that it can be downgraded to Standard Def. Don't make me feel like I have to run out and buy a 1080P TV to play the latest games at max potential only to find out that its not necessary. It feels like SLI all over again...LOL If a game only has to "support" 1080p in the form of scaling or maybe they have some video that plays at that...then i consider that misleading to put it on the box.

Avatar image for NSR34GTR
NSR34GTR

13179

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#2 NSR34GTR
Member since 2007 • 13179 Posts
wow so much to read but i get your point
Avatar image for Aftermath6
Aftermath6

606

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 6

User Lists: 0

#3 Aftermath6
Member since 2004 • 606 Posts
I know exactly what you're talking about bcz I just recently bought a 1080p LCD and it just doesnt look the way I imagined.
Avatar image for hofuldig
hofuldig

5126

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#4 hofuldig
Member since 2004 • 5126 Posts

its not 720P its 720p (WITH A LOWER CASE LETTER) The chonsols are Capable of doing 1080p (Dont say they cant!) Its up to the developers to make the game what ever resolution they want but chose not to go to high because like a PC the chonsols will lose performance. thats why most developers choose 720p (or sometimes lowe) the game still looks great and it has a better Framerate allowing the developers to do more. Also Yes the Xbox360 has 512MB DDR3 shared between the system and graphics card i dont know how affective this is but it seems to work for them. the PS3 has 256mb of XDR Ram (its like 3x faster than ddr3) for its system memory and the 7800GTX (its baised off it) GPU has 256mb of GDDR3. when you say that games tear you are full of crap. i have had an Xbox360 and the 20+ games i played on it never had any tearing.

EDIT: 1 I highly doubt youre PC can run crysis at 1900x1200 because even the most powerful PC's today have trouble running it at 1600x(i dont remember this number)

EDIT: 2 There are games out that are 1080p right now. i dont know what they are but im shure there is a couple. also iv ben hearing that the new God of war on the PS3 is goung to be full 1080p.

Edit: 3 You say that on the back of GTA IV it says the game is 1080p? dont you know that thats not the auctual resolution but the supported resolution. Thats the way it is for all games they may be 720p but will work on 1080i or 1080p. you need to do sommore reading dude because you only got halft the facts. I dont claim to know everything but i know that alot of what you put here was * not auctual (*i dont want to swear on gs so i gotta put some retarded word)

1 Last thing. You say you know that the PS3 and Xbox360 were designed for 720p (at the time) and you seem fine with that. But when you find out that games arnt really 1080p you get all mad? why get mad if you know that both systems were designed with 720p in mind?

Avatar image for X360PS3AMD05
X360PS3AMD05

36320

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#5 X360PS3AMD05
Member since 2005 • 36320 Posts
ZOMGG the consoles aren't as powerful as people made them out to be :o Now i'll go back to playing games instead of worrying about resolutions on my GASSPP 768p plasma. Your display and calibration mean more than a silly resolution.
Avatar image for stele29
stele29

551

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#6 stele29
Member since 2008 • 551 Posts

its not 720P its 720p (WITH A LOWER CASE LETTER) The chonsols are Capable of doing 1080p (Dont say they cant!) Its up to the developers to make the game what ever resolution they want but chose not to go to high because like a PC the chonsols will lose performance. thats why most developers choose 720p (or sometimes lowe) the game still looks great and it has a better Framerate allowing the developers to do more. Also Yes the Xbox360 has 512MB DDR3 shared between the system and graphics card i dont know how affective this is but it seems to work for them. the PS3 has 256mb of XDR Ram (its like 3x faster than ddr3) for its system memory and the 7800GTX (its baised off it) GPU has 256mb of GDDR3. when you say that games tear you are full of crap. i have had an Xbox360 and the 20+ games i played on it never had any tearing.

EDIT: 1 I highly doubt youre PC can run crysis at 1900x1200 because even the most powerful PC's today have trouble running it at 1600x(i dont remember this number)

EDIT: 2 There are games out that are 1080p right now. i dont know what they are but im shure there is a couple. also iv ben hearing that the new God of war on the PS3 is goung to be full 1080p.

Edit: 3 You say that on the back of GTA IV it says the game is 1080p? dont you know that thats not the auctual resolution but the supported resolution. Thats the way it is for all games they may be 720p but will work on 1080i or 1080p. you need to do sommore reading dude because you only got halft the facts. I dont claim to know everything but i know that alot of what you put here was * not auctual (*i dont want to swear on gs so i gotta put some retarded word)

1 Last thing. You say you know that the PS3 and Xbox360 were designed for 720p (at the time) and you seem fine with that. But when you find out that games arnt really 1080p you get all mad? why get mad if you know that both systems were designed with 720p in mind?

hofuldig

You make a solid point. I wasn't implying that the console didn't work well at 720p. My point was that they are currently being heralded as bringing 1080p gaming into mainstream, but they cannot fulful that obligation right now since this wasn't their original purpose. I was saying that 1080p was an after thought which was later added for competition purposes and that it is a bad practice to say a game plays at it when it doesn't or isn't optimized for it. Rainbow Six Vegas 2 and Uncharted both claim a max 720p. They could have put 1080p on the box (they can be forced into scaling) but they were honest about it. If you want to see rampant tearing, play Assassin's Creed (both systems), Uncharted (ps3), blue dragon (360). This is a short list but you get the point. Tearing isn't widespread but for someone used to v-sync any tearing is noticeable.

In the long run, this isn't an argument about the potency of the systems. Its simply that I feel that consumers are being misleaded into buying 1080p televisions thinking that their shiny new Ps3's and 360's are going to perform as promised. I respect your position though, and I hope in the long run designers can figure out ways of bring better content to the table.

Oh, and I can in fact run Crysis on high at 1920X1200 on my Dell 24" with 30+ FPS and vsync on( no tearing- yay). My specs are .C2D-E6850, 8800 GT 512, 2 GB ram. And if you price around that hardware can be gotten for 500-600 dollars which is in the ballpark of any next gen console today. Which is why I think the PS3 and 360 are scrutinized so much. For the first time ever the price points merge with average pcs.

Have a good one!

Avatar image for justsayflyputit
justsayflyputit

25

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#7 justsayflyputit
Member since 2008 • 25 Posts
sony can prove you wrong if they wanted to.. but they wont.
Avatar image for Videodogg
Videodogg

12611

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#8 Videodogg
Member since 2002 • 12611 Posts
Have you ever tried just playing the games? Nothing you can do about it, so why obsess over this?
Avatar image for DarkNeoBahamut
DarkNeoBahamut

2251

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#9 DarkNeoBahamut
Member since 2003 • 2251 Posts
I see your point, I get what you're saying, however a game is not only about the graphics, what actually matter is the gameplay, I'm sure you can play 1080P on X360 and PS3 (like Prologue), the problem is the game may be slow, or may have low visual effects, that's why developers still use 720P. it's not PS3 or X360 fault, it's because the developers make games so complex it's hard to play them on 1080p and still having a good framerate. if you play blu-ray (1080p) on your ps3, you'll see the ps3 support it.
Avatar image for rctyke
rctyke

1122

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#10 rctyke
Member since 2005 • 1122 Posts
I wish Lair was a technical success, but it didn't had the visual fidelity of something like uncharted, which is a 720p game, but we need more high quality native PS3 games with 1080p.