1080p vs. 720p Trade-Off Article - Experts saying that 720p is better?

Note: I'm randomly adding articles I find (now) about HDTV's to answer questions people ask. I'd add them to the official HDTV thread but I can't edit that. The articles span over this post and the next.

I just found this interesting, I have no idea about HDTV's. I just found it an interesting google when trying to get comparison shots between 1080p and 720p. But considering this article is 6 months old... Is the errors whatever talked about here fixed?

The really interesting statistic that popped for me is how much less time a game console has to render a 1920x1080 scene versus a 1280x720 scene

Many developers, gamers, and journalists are confused by 1080p. They think that 1080p is somehow more challenging for game developers than 1080i, and they forget that 1080 (i or p) requires significant tradeoffs compared to 720p

1280x720 with 4x AA will generally look better than 1920x1080 with no anti-aliasing (there are more total samples)

It means that you can show more detail (although you need larger textures and models to really get this benefit) but it means that you have much less time to run complex pixel shaders. Most games can't justify running at higher than 1280x720- it would actually make them look worse because of the compromises they will have to make in other areas.Ozymandias

http://ozymandias.com/archive/2006/10/21/Clarifying-Thoughts-on-High-Definition-Game-Rendering.aspx

Justify post here: Many people talk about HDTV's here for 1080p and such- and this being directly related to gaming I decided it'd be best to post here instead of general hardware.

Actually what seems, is in many google searches... They're recommending 720p over 1080p even in recent articles. This is because most people just believe the numbers, but fail to take human limitations into consideration.

480p vs. 720p comparison shots: http://alteredbeast.i8.com/480vs720.html

In fact, a recent SMPTE (Society of Motion Pictures and Television Engineers) study found that the four aspects of a picture that the human eye "sees"- in order of importance - are:

1. Contrast Ratio/Dynamic Range
2. Color Saturation
3. Colorimetry/Color Temperature or Grayscale
4. Resolution

The independent experts all tend to agree on this point.. 1080p is just about the least important factor in picture quality particularly if you are seated outside the physical boundaries where our human eye can no longer discern the resolution differences. This is a sliding distance scale which depends on screen size in relation to seating distance. Here's one such chart example:

http://hdguru.com/wp-content/upload...tance_chart.pdf

Color accuracy, contrast, black levels, scaling/processing all come before resolution in importance. The smaller the panel, the less important resolution becomes UNLESS you will be using the panel as a computer monitor (where you'll often be seated within 4ft. of the display, and at a distance that close, you will much more likely notice & appreciate the difference). On a 37" panel, for example, you have to be within 5ft. to tell the difference. And that's under ideal circumstances.

Disregard any poster who suggests otherwise. They are seeing something other than the true difference between 1080p & 720p when they claim they can tell the difference even on smaller (37"-42") panels beyond 5-6ft. The difference they claim to see is likely to be in the processing of non-native signal, i.e., panels will typically display their native rate better than they can a lesser resolution which the panel then has to scale to match it's own.

If you have a 1080p 42" panel, for example, assuming for a moment that you are seated outside the optimal seating boundary for fully resolving (seeing) 1080p content, the panel will still often look better displaying 1080p content merely because it doesn't have to scale the resolution. Feed the 1080p panel some other lesser resolution which then must be upscaled to match the panels 1080p native rate, then on all but the most expensive panels with excellent processing, the image will look inferior not because 720p is a lesser resolution, but because the panel simply cannot do a very good job scaling it. Or, maybe the panel handles scaling these duties well, but the particular 1080p model just so happens to have better color rendition, contrast, etc., than another particular example of a 720p panel, and as a result, it looks better under any circumstances, regardless of their comparative resolution capabilities.

yep, but most people will go with the 1080P hype... they blindly follow the hype.. there are still people that think you need HDMI for 1080P and that it is much better looking than component....

Some simple games might look better in 1080P though (games with little things going on on screen like tennis or boxing)

1080p is ALWAYS a better resolution if you do an apples to apples test... and I am a professional expert.BroweChisox

if the hardware can pull it of as easily as 720P, yes... but that isn't the case with this gen consoles. 

Actually what seems, is in many google searches... They're recommending 720p over 1080p even in recent articles. I'd link more, but I actually must go (I havn't fully read them yet. This is the only one I've gotten through)

RoganSarine

Ozymandias is a MICROSOFT EMPLOYEE blogger. And he was writting that article back before the PS3 was released in defense of his 360's ability to do 1080p (games or movies) back in 2006. They were trying to deny any benifits of 1080p (in regards to the PS3)and was not needed. But today, Microcrap have changed their tune after more games have come out in 1080p and there are benifits for some games depending on the size of the HDTV you are using.

Today, M$ is first to let you know how "cool" 1080p is...Duh, M$, Duh! So, let us know about that *need* for the HDMI connector too why don't ya? LOL!

http://ozymandias.com/about.aspx

[QUOTE="RoganSarine"]

Actually what seems, is in many google searches... They're recommending 720p over 1080p even in recent articles. I'd link more, but I actually must go (I havn't fully read them yet. This is the only one I've gotten through)

gizmo_logix

Ozymandias is a MICROSOFT EMPLOYEE blogger. And he was writting that article back before the PS3 was released in defense of his 360's ability to do 1080p (games or movies) back in 2006. They were trying to deny any benifits of 1080p (in regards to the PS3)and was not needed. But today, Microcrap have changed their tune after more games have come out in 1080p and there are benifits for some games depending on the size of the HDTV you are using.

Today, M$ is first to let you know how "cool" 1080p is...Duh, M$, Duh! So, let us know about that *need* for the HDMI connector too why don't ya? LOL!

http://ozymandias.com/about.aspx

1080p is ALWAYS a better resolution if you do an apples to apples test... and I am a professional expert.BroweChisox

Yes, it's better resolution. Always, better resolution. That's what 1080p high resolution- alot of pixels per square inch. But that does not mean that the colo/saturation or whatevers better as I tried to point out in my 2nd consecutive post.

1080p it's better for HDTV 40" or bigger. smaller than 40" 720p is the way to go. You can't notice the difference between a 1080p and 720p in a 20" HDTV.rogerjak

1080p it's better for HDTV 40" or bigger. smaller than 40" 720p is the way to go. You can't notice the difference between a 1080p and 720p in a 20" HDTV.rogerjak

[QUOTE="RoganSarine"]

Actually what seems, is in many google searches... They're recommending 720p over 1080p even in recent articles. I'd link more, but I actually must go (I havn't fully read them yet. This is the only one I've gotten through)

gizmo_logix

Ozymandias is a MICROSOFT EMPLOYEE blogger. And he was writting that article back before the PS3 was released in defense of his 360's ability to do 1080p (games or movies) back in 2006. They were trying to deny any benifits of 1080p (in regards to the PS3)and was not needed. But today, Microcrap have changed their tune after more games have come out in 1080p and there are benifits for some games depending on the size of the HDTV you are using.

Today, M$ is first to let you know how "cool" 1080p is...Duh, M$, Duh! So, let us know about that *need* for the HDMI connector too why don't ya? LOL!

http://ozymandias.com/about.aspx

[QUOTE="gizmo_logix"][QUOTE="RoganSarine"]

Actually what seems, is in many google searches... They're recommending 720p over 1080p even in recent articles. I'd link more, but I actually must go (I havn't fully read them yet. This is the only one I've gotten through)

mjarantilla

Ozymandias is a MICROSOFT EMPLOYEE blogger. And he was writting that article back before the PS3 was released in defense of his 360's ability to do 1080p (games or movies) back in 2006. They were trying to deny any benifits of 1080p (in regards to the PS3)and was not needed. But today, Microcrap have changed their tune after more games have come out in 1080p and there are benifits for some games depending on the size of the HDTV you are using.

Today, M$ is first to let you know how "cool" 1080p is...Duh, M$, Duh! So, let us know about that *need* for the HDMI connector too why don't ya? LOL!

http://ozymandias.com/about.aspx

I totally forgot about performance drags of PC resolutions... It's a good thing to keep in mind. Good analogy. 

Rogan, i completely agree with you, you are 100% correct and right. You put all your opposers to shame.

have my babies. 

1080p is ALWAYS a better resolution if you do an apples to apples test... and I am a professional expert.BroweChisox

1080p of course is better than 720p with unlimited resources (space, programming resources, rendering power, etc.), and every factor other then resolution being equal.

 however, that's not the case when you have finite resources such as money, time, game deadlines, cpu/gpu/mem power/capability.

[QUOTE="rogerjak"]1080p it's better for HDTV 40" or bigger. smaller than 40" 720p is the way to go. You can't notice the difference between a 1080p and 720p in a 20" HDTV.mjarantilla

 Looky...

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"][QUOTE="rogerjak"]1080p it's better for HDTV 40" or bigger. smaller than 40" 720p is the way to go. You can't notice the difference between a 1080p and 720p in a 20" HDTV.gizmo_logix

Looky...

[QUOTE="gizmo_logix"][QUOTE="RoganSarine"]

Actually what seems, is in many google searches... They're recommending 720p over 1080p even in recent articles. I'd link more, but I actually must go (I havn't fully read them yet. This is the only one I've gotten through)

mjarantilla

Ozymandias is a MICROSOFT EMPLOYEE blogger. And he was writting that article back before the PS3 was released in defense of his 360's ability to do 1080p (games or movies) back in 2006. They were trying to deny any benifits of 1080p (in regards to the PS3)and was not needed. But today, Microcrap have changed their tune after more games have come out in 1080p and there are benifits for some games depending on the size of the HDTV you are using.

Today, M$ is first to let you know how "cool" 1080p is...Duh, M$, Duh! So, let us know about that *need* for the HDMI connector too why don't ya? LOL!

http://ozymandias.com/about.aspx

Ozymandias, is a Luddite. He's only bringing up the limitations in that article because he didn't want people to get caught up in the PS3 hype before it was released. He's 360 biased remember? This is the same tactic that Amir of Avs (another Microsofty) tried to pull when he was claiming that BD-50 wasn't possible anytime soon and the bit-rates of of vc1 were good enough. He also claimed that higher bit-rates (mpe2 and mpeg4) wasn't really necessary and that we should all use vc1 (a Microsoft product). He also claimed that MEPG4 was too complex and required too much power to render hd video anytime soon (Seen Pirates of the Caribbean on blu-ray lately? In MPEG4/AVC...It's awesome!).

All turned out to be wrong. Never doubt Sony's vision. Sony is pushing the envelope. And you never know what upgrades or software tuning that can be done in order to improve the efficiency of the PS3 performance for 1080p games.

What was considered impossible in the past is possible today. Don't doubt the future.

Ozymandias, is a Luddite. He's only bringing up the limitations in that article because he didn't want people to get caught up in the PS3 hype before it was released. He's 360 biased remember?gizmo_logix

All turned out to be wrong. Never doubt Sony's vision. Sony is pushing the envelope. And you never know what upgrades or software tuning that can be done in order to improve the efficiency of the PS3 performance for 1080p games.gizmo_logix

1080p will be the dominant force eventually.

If you have a TV over 50" it is noticable.

Right now? Not doable with most games due to taxing the system having to draw 2x the pixels.

720p better than 1080p with no qualifiers? No way. 1080p PWNZ 720p in a big way for movies on a big screen right now. Maybe not games YET, but movies. Come on over, I'll show you. ;)

Right now? Not doable with most games due to taxing the system having to draw 2x the pixels.

720p better than 1080p with no qualifiers? No way. 1080p PWNZ 720p in a big way for movies on a big screen right now. Maybe not games YET, but movies. Come on over, I'll show you. ;)

adamatoms

1080p will be the dominant force eventually.

If you have a TV over 50" it is noticable.

Right now? Not doable with most games due to taxing the system having to draw 2x the pixels.

720p better than 1080p with no qualifiers? No way. 1080p PWNZ 720p in a big way for movies on a big screen right now. Maybe not games YET, but movies. Come on over, I'll show you. ;)

adamatoms

The size of the tv NEVER matters.  It is how far you sit from the tv.  As long as you sit at THX distances or closer, you easily see the difference. 

Those articles are stupid. 1080p vs 720p and what are they trying to tell me that 720p is somehow better?

Let me get this straight the arguments are:

1) If you sit further away 720p looks just as good

2) 1080p TVs are scaling 720p footage thus making 720p look inferior if they had better scalers 720p would look just as good

3) Games can't run any higher than 720p when 4xAA is applied (umm hello thats why new GPUs exist like the 8800)

4) The human eye can't perceive any higher than 720p at a fixed range. (WTF)

I don't even know what to say about all that rubbish.

First of all films are shot on 35mm which yields resolutions way beyond 1080p, more like 2200p and above, so the whole the human eye can't tell the difference is mute. Second game's have been running in 1080p and beyond on PC's ages ago and yes it does look better, so there goes that. And third of course a 720p signal will look bad on a 1080p TV thats just common sense, your missing millions of pixels that means the image has to be stretched and what use to be one pixel is now being displayed by 4. How does that prove that 720p is better!

1080p has more pixels than 720p and hence it looks better. End of story. Sure if I sit 20 miles away from my TV than I can't tell the difference but than again if I sat 20 miles away i can watch 480p and still think I'm looking at HD.

Bottom line whenever you got more pixels the image will look better, there is a threshhold but we are far from reching it just yet. 70mm cinema cannot even be displayed digitally at it's native resolution because it's like 4000p and above. 

[QUOTE="gizmo_logix"]

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"][QUOTE="rogerjak"]1080p it's better for HDTV 40" or bigger. smaller than 40" 720p is the way to go. You can't notice the difference between a 1080p and 720p in a 20" HDTV.mjarantilla

Looky...

[QUOTE="adamatoms"]

1080p will be the dominant force eventually.

If you have a TV over 50" it is noticable.

Right now? Not doable with most games due to taxing the system having to draw 2x the pixels.

720p better than 1080p with no qualifiers? No way. 1080p PWNZ 720p in a big way for movies on a big screen right now. Maybe not games YET, but movies. Come on over, I'll show you. ;)

BroweChisox

The size of the tv NEVER matters.  It is how far you sit from the tv.  As long as you sit at THX distances or closer, you easily see the difference. 

[QUOTE="BroweChisox"][QUOTE="adamatoms"]

1080p will be the dominant force eventually.

If you have a TV over 50" it is noticable.

Right now? Not doable with most games due to taxing the system having to draw 2x the pixels.

720p better than 1080p with no qualifiers? No way. 1080p PWNZ 720p in a big way for movies on a big screen right now. Maybe not games YET, but movies. Come on over, I'll show you. ;)

jdang307

The size of the tv NEVER matters. It is how far you sit from the tv. As long as you sit at THX distances or closer, you easily see the difference.

Of course seating distance is proportional to viewing distance, but most of the fools in this forum jusy say 50" or larger is a requirement.  You could have a 1080p 12" tv and notice the difference if you sist at THX distance. 

Those articles are stupid. 1080p vs 720p and what are they trying to tell me that 720p is somehow better?
No, what they are saying is that 720p with limited resources, such as consoles, 720p is sometimes better.

Let me get this straight the arguments are:

1) If you sit further away 720p looks just as good
This is true.  At a certain point, depending on the size of the TV, the added benefits of a higher resolution is negated.  This isn't a new concept.  It was around with 480p vs. 720 vs. 1080.  This has been around for years, and not just recently.

2) 1080p TVs are scaling 720p footage thus making 720p look inferior if they had better scalers 720p would look just as good
No idea what you're talking about here.  We're talking 1080p footage on a 1080p display, vs. 720p footage on a 720p display.

3) Games can't run any higher than 720p when 4xAA is applied (umm hello thats why new GPUs exist like the 8800)
Consoles buddy, consoles.  There are inherent limitations in consoles that don't exist on the PC.  PC gaming has gone way past 1080p and everybody knows the benefits of that.  Plus, I don't think PC gaming scale, the larger resolution you go, it doesn't necessarily scale the image to the higher resolution, you just actually see more game.  I.e., your view on an FPS is just bigger vertically and horizontally (to see the fool creeping up on the side better).

4) The human eye can't perceive any higher than 720p at a fixed range. (WTF)
Not sure what you mean here but at a certain distance off, you cannot perceive the difference.  This is not new and can easily be tested double-blindly.

I don't even know what to say about all that rubbish.

First of all films are shot on 35mm which yields resolutions way beyond 1080p, more like 2200p and above, so the whole the human eye can't tell the difference is mute. Second game's have been running in 1080p and beyond on PC's ages ago and yes it does look better, so there goes that. And third of course a 720p signal will look bad on a 1080p TV thats just common sense, your missing millions of pixels that means the image has to be stretched and what use to be one pixel is now being displayed by 4. How does that prove that 720p is better!

1080p has more pixels than 720p and hence it looks better. End of story. Sure if I sit 20 miles away from my TV than I can't tell the difference but than again if I sat 20 miles away i can watch 480p and still think I'm looking at HD.

Bottom line whenever you got more pixels the image will look better, there is a threshhold but we are far from reching it just yet. 70mm cinema cannot even be displayed digitally at it's native resolution because it's like 4000p and above.
Now you're comparing film to games.  The argument is, with the fixed resources on a console, you might have a choice of running 1080p no AA etc., or 720p with 4xAA or higher.  This is because there are fixed cpu and gpu power capabilities which cannot be increased.  Film of course is the ultimate format, but there is no rendering with film.  With HDTV formats yes there is a codec so the machine must decode but this is much easier then trying to render a game but that's a different story.  1080p 4xAA vs. 720p 4xAA, yes the 1080p will look better.  Nobody is arguing that.  But what the original article is saying, is that you might not be able to do 1080p 4xAA.

Also, the distance thing I don't get why you guys miss this point.  It is so elementary I don't know why we have to explain this over and over again.  We're not talking about sitting 20 miles away.  Case in point, before 720p or 1080p panels came out, there were 480p plasmas and HD plasmas.  With the same manufacturer, an HD signal was displayed on both.  Below 8 feet, the HD Panel was clearly better, no doubt.  After 8, it started to blend, after 10 feet or so, hardly anybody can tell the difference.  This is a basic concept, and can be tested and has been tested over and over again.  Get over it, it's true (subjective, but true).

[QUOTE="jdang307"][QUOTE="BroweChisox"][QUOTE="adamatoms"]

1080p will be the dominant force eventually.

If you have a TV over 50" it is noticable.

Right now? Not doable with most games due to taxing the system having to draw 2x the pixels.

720p better than 1080p with no qualifiers? No way. 1080p PWNZ 720p in a big way for movies on a big screen right now. Maybe not games YET, but movies. Come on over, I'll show you. ;)

BroweChisox

The size of the tv NEVER matters. It is how far you sit from the tv. As long as you sit at THX distances or closer, you easily see the difference.

Of course seating distance is proportional to viewing distance, but most of the fools in this forum jusy say 50" or larger is a requirement.  You could have a 1080p 12" tv and notice the difference if you sist at THX distance. 

It's the reason MotorStorm and Resistance are 720p.  1080p is much more difficult to pull off than 720p.  If you go 1080p, than you have to give up frame rate or other visual effects.  That's why the only games that are currently 1080p are games basketball and tennis games.  It's because the the background pretty much stays the same and there isn't a lot of movement or visual effects like explosions and such.

I've been saying for months that 720p is the sweet spot this gen.  Next gen will be true 1080p gaming.

The truth of the matter is simply...

1) Programmers have gotten comfortable programming for SDTV. Many of them would complain that going to 480p from 480i is a waste of resources (because they have to learn how to use the newer formats).

2) Programers have gotten lazy. If you only have to program 4.7Gb of information, when you add in music, credits and cut-csenes (which are done by other programmers), it is relatively speaking, not a lot. That's why they could "spit-out" PS2 and 360 games on a monthly basis. Now if you start using HD media like Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, you don't have to fill it up, but you do need to add more than the standard 8 levels on some games. Not to mention raising the resolution of characters, back grounds, weapons to jaw-dropping quality take a lot more time and effort  (so stop asking where are the games for the PS3).

3) More people are getting HDTVs mostly for gamming. Now Programmers can't take short-cuts without us noticing. If you play a PS One game in SD, and it has missing frames, it might be barely noticable if at all. A few frames you can ignore (I wish that I could). Have you seen missing frames on HD (i.e digital cable/satalite on a bad day, played a PS/PS2 game in HD), it's not pretty. Let's not even go into pixelation. Most of us have seen it.