John Carmack on lack of memory in PS3

Game Informer: When we interviewed you at CES this year, and QuakeCon two years ago you weren't too thrilled with developing for multicore systems. Obviously now, that's the case across all platforms. Were you kind of at the point with id Tech 5 where, you said, "We give in?"

John Carmack: You have to take advantage of what's on the table. Although it's interesting that almost all of the PS3 launch titles hardly used any Cells at all. We hired one of the best PS3 guys around who did the Edge Acceleration technology for Sony - he's on our team now so we've got some of the best PS3 experience here. In fact when we were doing all of the tech demos, we'd bring in the developers and they'd walk over and say, "it's running on the PS3!" (laughs) They'd sit there and stare at it for a while.

There's no doubt that with all of the platforms that we have running here PS3 is the most challenging to develop on. That's what I've been saying from the beginning. It's not that it was a boneheaded decision because they're a lot closer the fact that they can run like this [points to the 4 different gaming stations running Rage] - they're a lot closer than they've ever been before. It's a hell of a lot better than PS2 versus Xbox. But given the choice, we'd rather develop on the Xbox 360. The PS3 still does have in theory more power that could be extracted but it's not smart. We don't feel it's smart to head down that rat hole. In fact, the biggest thing we worry about right now is memory. Microsoft extracts 32 megs for their system stuff and Sony takes 96. That's a big deal because the PS3 is already partitioned memory where the 360 is 512 megs of unified and on the PS3 is 256 of video, 256 of memory minus 96 for their system...stuff. Stuff is not the first thing that came to my mind there. (laughs)

The PS3 is not the favorite platform but it's going to run the game just as good. To some degree there's going to be some lowest common denominator effect because we're going to be testing these every day on all of the platforms, and it's going to be "Dammit it's out of memory on the PS3 again, go crunch some things down" That's probably going to be the sore spot for all of this but because we're continuous builds on all of these we're going to be fighting these battles as we go rather than build these things out and go, "Oh my God we're so far away from running on there." Which is the situation where Enemy Territory is suffering with at a degree right now, and a lot of other people have that.

sooo..you are joking about it because..he is right or you are wrong? ;) sorry..couldnt keep it for myself...got both the systems and a couple more..so wouldnt call me a fanboy...the games that deside....i think this is interesting, we dont need people that belive this and that...believe is something you can do in the church...in the end, i wish for the programmers to get the best out of whatever they doing and give us good games on both sides..time will show... :)

excuse my english..norwegian here and kindy rusty for the moment..well...beer is calling then shake the ass at the floor. have a nice weekend ;) (listening to: Peoples choice - here we go again).

ps: larry levan roxx! hehe ;)

for any game console to be built without the capability to add off-the-shelf memory to it is just plain dumb. over a projected 10 year lifespan, the two things most likely to bottleneck development are cpu architecture and RAM.

for 15 years printers have been built and sold with relatively small amounts of RAM but also with the capability for the user to upgrade them by installing add-in RAM cards - its retarded that game consoles aren't built that way.

^ im sorry but the textures in Killzone look bad and that probably because of the memory. Killzone isn't going to be PS3's holy Grail, so just stop hyping it up to be.canadianmaniak0

Nah Ill just keep hyping it till TGS, When Sony will shut you and the rest of the other fanboys up with the real game. Plus Camrack is guy for PCs, 360 devlepment is very similar to a PCs so for him its very easy. The PS3 on the other hand is like developing for a console something hes not use too.

[QUOTE="canadianmaniak0"]^ im sorry but the textures in Killzone look bad and that probably because of the memory. Killzone isn't going to be PS3's holy Grail, so just stop hyping it up to be.Bolund

Nah Ill just keep hyping it till TGS, When Sony will shut you and the rest of the other fanboys up with the real game. Plus Camrack is guy for PCs, 360 devlepment is very similar to a PCs so for him its very easy. The PS3 on the other hand is like developing for a console something hes not use too.

I Agree. But one more thing. People should stop saying "But look at Killzone 2 and so on". RAM doesn' have much to do with Graphics, but with other stuff, check Wikipedia for more.

What John is trying to say is that its harder to code for the PS3 and hence takes longer and costs more.

In the end its all about cost. If it takes longer to get the same result on PS3 then of course you prefer to use the 360 instead.

Thats why you see a lot of developers using 360 as main platform. Its cheaper.

^ im sorry but the textures in Killzone look bad and that probably because of the memory. Killzone isn't going to be PS3's holy Grail, so just stop hyping it up to be.canadianmaniak0

you know whats sad.. killzone might not come out for a year and still looks better then anyhtign 360 has.. trying saying killzone doesnt look good when you see the final product

John Carter is a homotransvestite...(is that even possible) LOL Jokes, anyways, it will survive.johnnythegamer2

lol :P

Its kinda funny because the guy makes some valid points. Everything he said about the ps3 architecture is correct, but its strange how he points out the bad and fails to mention the good. The real funny part is that even though his games have made some money hes really not a great developer at all. Not even in top 50 to be honest so I dont see why his opinion on PS3 even matters.

Its another case of the lazy developer. Afraid to learn something new so lets stick with the old technology instead. I really hope this trend stops soon because games are starting to look too similar as a result.

Also how come the guys at Sony, Kojima Productions, Square Enix, Insomniac, Epic,Naughty Dog and plenty of other companies are making games that look better than what old John Carmack has to offer. Maybe he should go back to school.

[QUOTE="canadianmaniak0"]^ im sorry but the textures in Killzone look bad and that probably because of the memory. Killzone isn't going to be PS3's holy Grail, so just stop hyping it up to be.Arsenal325

you know whats sad.. killzone might not come out for a year and still looks better then anyhtign 360 has.. trying saying killzone doesnt look good when you see the final product

wow you have seen the final product?

^Smart ass. lol.

Seriously though im not hyped about Killzone 2 and most likely wont purchase it, but it still looks better than anything Carmack has ever put his hands on.

^ im sorry but the textures in Killzone look bad and that probably because of the memory. Killzone isn't going to be PS3's holy Grail, so just stop hyping it up to be.canadianmaniak0

well if you would of read the dev interview, the textures were low because of the filter bug.

^Smart ass. lol.

Seriously though im not hyped about Killzone 2 and most likely wont purchase it, but it still looks better than anything Carmack has ever put his hands on.

treelog187

Still doesn't negate the fact that Carmack is a developer and knows wwwaaaayyyy more about programming and developing than anyone here. What he said wasn't fanboyish in anyway. He stated facts and his opinion about why others start with the 360 as the main platform. Everyone here is just posting fanboy comments with no facts to back them up

Its kinda funny because the guy makes some valid points. Everything he said about the ps3 architecture is correct, but its strange how he points out the bad and fails to mention the good. The real funny part is that even though his games have made some money hes really not a great developer at all. Not even in top 50 to be honest so I dont see why his opinion on PS3 even matters.treelog187

[QUOTE="treelog187"]

^Smart ass. lol.

Seriously though im not hyped about Killzone 2 and most likely wont purchase it, but it still looks better than anything Carmack has ever put his hands on.

kingtito

Still doesn't negate the fact that Carmack is a developer and knows wwwaaaayyyy more about programming and developing than anyone here. What he said wasn't fanboyish in anyway. He stated facts and his opinion about why others start with the 360 as the main platform. Everyone here is just posting fanboy comments with no facts to back them up

True, still, we have to remember that Carmak NEVER developed a game for PS2, which was also a not so developer friendly console, which again proves that while he is definitelly a great PC programmer, he might suck when developing on other platforms ( meaning the PS which is very different from a PC).

The real funny part is that even though his games have made some money hes really not a great developer at all. Not even in top 50 to be honest so I dont see why his opinion on PS3 even matters.treelog187

Too bad the Graphics of Killzone 2 and MGS4 disagree with him.abudjasim

no you dont get it. He is not saying that the PS3 isnt capable of delivering that kind of performance. What he is saying is that its ALOT harder to get it to do that. Meaning it is so difficult to program GREAT games for (not just good games, greate games) that most developers dont like working on the system. There will be other games just as good as Killzone 2. But its easier to work with the 360 and get its full potential. Thats all he is saying.

And what that REALLY means, is that in a few years from now, the tell tale sign of all this will be that the PS3 will have fewer AAA or AAAA games than the 360. With most games going multiplatform, and most developers having pretty much the same opinion about both consoles, its a no brainer that the PS3 will RARELY show its true "potential" in comparison with the xbox. It will only do so on exclusives. And even then, games will constantly be delayed (as has been happening).

This is not due to developers being lazy as everyone likes to blame it on. Developers are not lazy. They want to make money too. But they DO have limited time and resources. If they have a hard time with a project, there comes a time that they have to cut stuff out and make some changes ebfore they run out of time and/or resources allocated to the project. Thats the nature of business in general. Once it gets to a point that its no longer cost effective to continue trying to develop a certain game, they have to make some important decisions. Unfortunately, because the PS3 is so hard to program for, it usually isnt good news.

Look at Halo 2. In many ways, it disapointed alot of people. If you ever watch the video of the making of halo 2, it is VERY clear that they were pressed for time and basically rushed it out at the end. Does that make them lazy? No. They were working extreamly long hours, and still didnt get it the way they wanted it. That was due to time constraints and high expectations. Similar things will happen with PS3 games for other reasons. But in the end its the same. The OVERALL quality of games will not be what everone expected. Sure there WILL be lots of awesome games. But even the Wii might end up having a longer list of killer apps than the PS3 within a few years.

Maybe not. Maybe it wont turn out that way. But it makes perfect sense at the moment. Maybe things will change who knows. But for now, thats how its going down. John Carmack is not the only developer to make these SAME statements about the PS3. Obviously, something is wrong. And no, its not a conspiracy. Its just how it is. But hopefuilly things will turn around. Because if all systems do well, then they all have to strive even harder to give awesome gaming experiences to their users. Competition is a good thing.

So even though its not looking that great (better than before though) for the PS3, good luck to it!

Too bad the graphics of Killzone 2 and MGS4 are faked! The PS3 is worthless to begin with, but the memory issue makes it even worse. All we have seen from Sony (as usual) is nothing but smoke and mirrors to hide the fact that they are trying to push Blu Ray. Just like with DVD and PS2. All we got then was DISK READ ERRORS and substandard graphics. Xbox 360 all the way.SlapFacker

How were they fake? They playedKillzone 2real-time at e3 and MGS4 was played already.

Too bad the graphics of Killzone 2 and MGS4 are faked! The PS3 is worthless to begin with, but the memory issue makes it even worse. All we have seen from Sony (as usual) is nothing but smoke and mirrors to hide the fact that they are trying to push Blu Ray. Just like with DVD and PS2. All we got then was DISK READ ERRORS and substandard graphics. Xbox 360 all the way.SlapFacker

Now this is odd, the ps3 taking more memory than the 360? The 360 has a full on upscaler *really nothing to do with memory though*, custom soundtracks, and its full on xbox live integration *which I would think that would take a BIG chunk of memory*. You'd think the ps3 wouldn't take as much memory since you can't do all that much when you press home while playing a ps3 game. I can see why john didn't like the ps2, since it was VERY poor systems specs wise to the xbox. Though, the ps3 is a good bit more closer to the xbox 360 this time, but its just a bit more complicated on how the ps3s actually made.hazuki

He just doesn't like the complication, I guess he's kinda lazy but he's still working on getting the PS3 version to run the same as the others.

yea ps3 might "suffer" from lack of ram but isnt the ps3 ram an XDR ram which is the fastest Ram there is Available certainly quicker then the 360's Ram look at killZone 2 look at MGS 4 look at Heavenly sword they all Equire Ram and Oblivion on ps3 is more detailed then the 360 version so ram hasnt got that much to play on itWhiteknight19

yea ps3 might "suffer" from lack of ram but isnt the ps3 ram an XDR ram which is the fastest Ram there is Available certainly quicker then the 360's Ram look at killZone 2 look at MGS 4 look at Heavenly sword they all Equire Ram and Oblivion on ps3 is more detailed then the 360 version so ram hasnt got that much to play on itWhiteknight19

As a PC gamer I would much rather have a ton of RAM then a considerably smaller amount of faster RAM. That said I doubt the PS3 is causing any gameplay limitations and that is the most important thing to consider. Unlike most of the PS3 fans here I have some respect for Carmack since he has single handedly programmed three or four of the best engines on PC. So I would definately pay attention to what he says. MS has always designed their console with large amount of RAM and non-specialized hardware while Nintendo and Sony did the opposite.

As you said KZ 2 and MGS 4 look awesome in their own right (although if you notice it normally isn't from texture quality) so we still have good graphics and effects thanks to the Cell boosting the RSX.

[QUOTE="Whiteknight19"]yea ps3 might "suffer" from lack of ram but isnt the ps3 ram an XDR ram which is the fastest Ram there is Available certainly quicker then the 360's Ram look at killZone 2 look at MGS 4 look at Heavenly sword they all Equire Ram and Oblivion on ps3 is more detailed then the 360 version so ram hasnt got that much to play on itgamer082009

Dude - you just did not! How about you look the info up before you comment! The 360 uses GDDR3, which runs at 700MHz just like the RSX memory in the PS3, which is also GDDR3. However, the Cells memory bank is XDR 3.2Ghz, which is faster then any consumer bought PC ram, along with the 360s ram.

As for the PS3 OS Memory footprint, it's been reduced from 96Mb to 84 - and it will continue to drop in size.

http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2007/05/14/new-playstation-3-sdk-released-os-memory-footprint-lessened/

""--OS footprint reduced from 64MB in December to 52MB in the most recent release, roughly a 20% drop in resource cost.
--Friends list costs 25 MB (?!) + 8MB for startup
--Remote play for PS3 games possible - costs only 8 MB
--PS3 OS cost: 84MB | X360 OS cost: 32MB (ouch)""

[QUOTE="treelog187"]The real funny part is that even though his games have made some money hes really not a great developer at all. Not even in top 50 to be honest so I dont see why his opinion on PS3 even matters.guyhunter

Yeah what's with this whole Doom and Wolfenstein thing anyway? It's funny hearing all the console gamers downplay the inventor of the FPS genre and who also developed a number of highly popular and revolutionary game engines. The fact is Carmack is a decent game developer but a technical genius, and that the PS3 does have a disadvantage in RAM against the 360, but this won't stop it from having awesome games like MGS 4, Killzone 2, and FF 13.

Its another case of the lazy developer. Afraid to learn something new so lets stick with the old technology instead.

treelog187

It's all about economics. If you own a large company that develops games for four different platforms (360, PS3, Mac and PC) it's very bad business to spend lots of resources just to tune your organization to suit the one platform that significantly differs from the three others. The only exception being if that platform has a large market share compared to the others - which kind of saved the PS2 and made it an even bigger success, but won't save the PS3 as sales look right now.