Story in the Metal Gear Solid series have you confused? Just know the big themes

Don't get worked up over the minor character details like Vamp, Olga, etc. All that stuff is interesting for the diehard metal gear fans, they make the story more interesting but not worth dwelling on right now. The major plot devices and the political themes they relate to in real life are what really matter in the games. The real world themes/parallels MGS draws off of are in light blue. In one sentence: its about The Patriots (dubious elite war profiteers), controlling soldiers like Snake to do their bidding, and we've got opposition forces that the soldiers are sent to take down.

Here is the main theme rundown:

We've got the world dominating war profiteers, the U.S. group the Patriots formerly the world group called the Philosophers, a reference to the U.S. being the world superpower today. They claim to be good but they are dubious. They control the world, and they specialize in using war to control people and make money from war for their purposes. In real life they represent the U.S. government and the military industrial complex and U.S. economic hegemony through using our forces for economic imperialism. Iraq and oil conquer is the latest example in real life. Before that we had communism vs capitalism with Russia during the Cold War. The U.S. has conducted so many secret overthrows of governments in our history, for example Iran in the 1950's. Burma, Laos in the 60's. Many south american countries throughout the 70's and 80's. The list is really quite large.

Then we've got the black ops specialist Solid Snake, manipulated by the patriots to do their work and then labelled as a terrorist from being set up by these Patriot forces in the government. He is a part of a cycle of super soldiers that the Patriots use for their purposes. Raiden is next in line. Big Boss and Boss were before Snake. These characters represent how soldiers are merely pawns in never ending power struggles that consume governments and powerful men who control the governments.

Then we've got the opposition to Patriot domination. A quick real world example, Iran in 1979 with the overthrow of the brutal Shah we had installed to do our bidding, so you realize why the leaders in this part of the world oppose America. In the game the opposition to the Patriots includes Big Boss after he rebelled, Ocelot, and Solidus. Big Boss was killed by Snake and Solidus killed by Raiden. That leaves Ocelot. From the prequel MGS3, we know Ocelot was once the liason for the Patriots/Philosophers he was key in securing the microfilm money for them and was playing on all sides. But since MGS1 he had rebelled, in MGS2 he was going after the patriots again, and in MGS4 its been revealed he is setting up Outer Heaven --the rebellion entity named the same as Big Boss's rebellion base in the original 8 bit Metal Gear game. Snake and the usual crew are being sent out to stop Ocelot. Now the question is will snake join the rebellion, carry out his mission, or because he would like neither perhaps kill himself as the E3 06 trailer suggests? Maybe Snake will allow foxdie to kill him.

Whatever finally happens in MGS4, its clear that its going to be the most philisophical and politically oriented Metal Gear game yet. Kojima will leave us with a masterpiece.

I have never played an MGS, but this post seems to give me the basic theme behind the series. I am soooo excited for this game, it really seems like a great thriller.

Also, on a side note (I hate doing this to people's threads but I figured you would know best) If I had time to play one MGS game (at least at the moment) what game would you reccomend me go out and buy? Thanks!

-The Glavin

I would recommend playing MGS3 first. If you buy MGS3: Subsistence you can play the original 8 bit games also.

I recommend MGS3 mostly because its the newest edition, so the gameplay is the best so far, but also because its the prequel to all the games in the series. You learn about the cycle of super soldiers being used, you play as Big Boss (snake's father, well Snake is a refined clone of Big Boss) and you have to take down Boss who was the mentor of Big Boss. You learn how one super soldier is required to take down the former in order to become the successor. I just really hope Raiden isn't required to kill off Snake in MGS4, that would really be uncool.

Ok cool! thanks for the help!

-The Glavin

I have never played an MGS4, but this post seems to give me the basic theme behind the series. I am soooo excited for this game, it really seems like a great thriller.

Also, on a side note (I hate doing this to people's threads but I figured you would know best) If I had time to play one MGS game (at least at the moment) what game would you reccomend me go out and buy? Thanks!

-The Glavin

GlavinChris

ha yea that makes 999999k+ of us!

"the U.S. group the Patriots, formerly the world group called the Philosophers"

Actually the Philosophers were taken down when Ocelot lured the man carrying half of the legacy out into the open by threatening a nuclear strike on his base. Ocelot killed him, and took that half of the Legacy, while "the man with the same code name as Null" acquired the other half through political means. Without the Legacy, the Philosophers were finished, and Ocelot and this Mystery Man formed The Patriots. Ocelot said "it's all part of our plan to make the world SHE envisioned a reality". This is in reference to Ocelot's mother The Boss, who was considered a Patriot because she gave her child and her life to her mission. So no, the Philosophers have nothing to do with the Patriots.

Second, because Big Boss was considered the perfect soldier for overcoming all of The Boss' Sons, and the perfect leader for not only carrying the trust of the soldiers over Gene who used mind control and crap to control them, Big Boss was actually a Patriot himself, recruited by Ocelot. Outer Heaven, a world for those who knew battle as the only way to live, formed by Big Boss was meant as The Patriots' means of controlling battles, economies, and conflicts around the world, just as Gene had stated Army's Heaven's purpose was going to be before he was killed by Big Boss.

With that second point, I believe Big Boss never rebelled against the Patriots in the first place, rather his actions and death were the same kind of "defection" the original Boss performed, meant to teach Solid Snake the same strength and values as Naked Snake learned in Snake Eater. Big Boss was old, and he needed a succesor, but based on his experiences with Gene, he probably believed that Solidus, the perfect clone would not be the best succesor, that's why he tested Snake.

Finally, while everyone comes to the conclusion that the Patriots are evil, I think MGS2's ending kind of proved the point that the world needs/needed them for a time. I think Liquid Ocelot's upcoming battle is what changes that. See, with Ocelot being a member of The Patriots for all these years things have worked out and they have managed to control the world well, but now that Liquid has Ocelot's appearance and voice, he presumably has the power to do whatever he wants in the organization, and is using New Outer Heaven to twist the world in his favor...which is why Snake is asked to get rid of him.

I think the analogy is that while the US has in some ways recently been a positive thing for the world, recently with power changing hands, new aggression has made the world less safe...possibly the analogy Kojima is getting at, because in past games Kojima has been a little more pro-Patriot.

Just my thoughts though...

"the U.S. group the Patriots, formerly the world group called the Philosophers"

Actually the Philosophers were taken down when Ocelot lured the man carrying half of the legacy out into the open by threatening a nuclear strike on his base. Ocelot killed him, and took that half of the Legacy, while "the man with the same code name as Null" acquired the other half through political means. Without the Legacy, the Philosophers were finished, and Ocelot and this Mystery Man formed The Patriots. Ocelot said "it's all part of our plan to make the world SHE envisioned a reality". This is in reference to Ocelot's mother The Boss, who was considered a Patriot because she gave her child and her life to her mission. So no, the Philosophers have nothing to do with the Patriots.

Second, because Big Boss was considered the perfect soldier for overcoming all of The Boss' Sons, and the perfect leader for not only carrying the trust of the soldiers over Gene who used mind control and crap to control them, Big Boss was actually a Patriot himself, recruited by Ocelot. Outer Heaven, a world for those who knew battle as the only way to live, formed by Big Boss was meant as The Patriots' means of controlling battles, economies, and conflicts around the world, just as Gene had stated Army's Heaven's purpose was going to be before he was killed by Big Boss.

With that second point, I believe Big Boss never rebelled against the Patriots in the first place, rather his actions and death were the same kind of "defection" the original Boss performed, meant to teach Solid Snake the same strength and values as Naked Snake learned in Snake Eater. Big Boss was old, and he needed a succesor, but based on his experiences with Gene, he probably believed that Solidus, the perfect clone would not be the best succesor, that's why he tested Snake.

Finally, while everyone comes to the conclusion that the Patriots are evil, I think MGS2's ending kind of proved the point that the world needs/needed them for a time. I think Liquid Ocelot's upcoming battle is what changes that. See, with Ocelot being a member of The Patriots for all these years things have worked out and they have managed to control the world well, but now that Liquid has Ocelot's appearance and voice, he presumably has the power to do whatever he wants in the organization, and is using New Outer Heaven to twist the world in his favor...which is why Snake is asked to get rid of him.

I think the analogy is that while the US has in some ways recently been a positive thing for the world, recently with power changing hands, new aggression has made the world less safe...possibly the analogy Kojima is getting at, because in past games Kojima has been a little more pro-Patriot.

Just my thoughts though...

staley6565

I wasn't saying that the Philisophers just changed their name, I was only saying the Patriots are playing the same sort of role the Philosophers once played. But you seem to have some more info on that gap between the two stories since I never played Portable Ops since I don't have a psp, I think those are good thoughts you have. If you have more to add I'd definitely enjoy hearing them. I might have to play portable ops now, lol but I just hate not having actual video cutscenes.

Anyway, thats really new to me that the Outer Heaven was part of the patriots plan, so thats probably the case once again this time. It did seem obvious however that the super soldiers know at some point they are part of the Patriots. The philisophy of the patriots being good or evil will be interesting, and I have a feeling it will be left open to the player to decide once again. My view is that they are more bad than good, so I hope we can confront them this time.

This was a very interesting read.

THANKS!

Yeah it's totally cool, I know some people who didn't even think Portable Ops was Canon to the series because of the 2 card battle games.

SPOILER: Yes at the end of Portable Ops, Snake says he's only ever been good at fighting etc. but he doesn't agree with Gene's plans to use fear and trickery to control soldiers (Gene's plan for Army's Heaven) and says he will make a place "outside your heaven". Anyway, at the end, once Ocelot has aqcuired the Legacy, he tells the codename guy he wants Big Boss to be part of the organization, because of the way he can earn the soldier's trust etc. and Army's Heaven purpose was to end wars, and begin global conflict control, so it's suitable to say that Big Boss achieved that role for the new Patriots, and that's how the Patriots got so powerful.

While Ocelot has always been the one to control the global events, I think he's more of a good guy like The Boss. His partner "The Man with the same codename as Null" in my theory is...this will take some backstory to explain.

Null aka Frank Jaeger aka Grey Fox is the person he's saying he has the same codename as. I was thinking of names that were similiar Frank, Fox, etc. but then it hit me...Grey Fox also called himself "Deepthroat", and there was also a guy in the 70s known as "Deepthroat" who outed Nixon and made him resign based on his info. Now we know in real life who Deepthroat is now, but I think in Kojima's story he's reffering to "this man with the same codename as Null" as the guy who outed Nixon. So in essence, Ocelot controls the Legacy, Deepthroat controls factors like politics (as stated the Patriots have been known to do in MGS2), and Big Boss controlled Global Conflict, essentially controlling "the mission"

Here's my take on the good and the bad. I think the Patriots are good from Portable Ops timeframe onward. They have kept global conflict in control, and nuclear was hasn't happened. Then as Big Boss is growing old, and his clones are older, he chooses Solid to be his succesor, rather than the "perfect clone" Solidus, instead letting Solidus control the nation as George Sears. Also, Liquid resents his choice too. So now Liquid, and Solidus both resent Big Boss, meanwhile Solid is being mentored by him.

In MGS2, it makes it pretty clear to me, that while Raiden and others are victimized by The Patriots, that it was all done in the best interests of the world. Solidus is taken out, and the Patriots maintain control.

I think in MGS4 though, the Patriots are no longer good, because it's no longer Ocelot controlling them, but Liquid, who resented Big Boss, who was one of the original Patriots. Therefor, Outer Heaven has been twisted under his command, and is causing trouble all over the world. While the world fears what he's doing, they don't want the war economy to collapse because it was working for them when the original Outer Heaven was in control.

Again, just my thoughts though, not confirmed fact until we play the game.

If you buy MGS3: Subsistence you can play the original 8 bit games also.to become the successor. I just really hope Raiden isn't required to kill off Snake in MGS4, that would really be uncool.

PrimordialMeme

i have played all 3 games, and wow this really sheds a new light. great thoughts and opinions, i would really like to see maybe a graphic novel or something showing snake when he was being mentored by big boss. it would be sick if raiden was playable cuz i wanna play him in MGS4, mainly because he looks bada$#. yeah i'd say go buy MGS3, but if you go to youtube and search up MGS storyline. this guy actually recorded the cutscenes and important parts of the game so if you dont want to go back and play MGS and the old graphics then you can just watch that, might take a good 5 hours though. he also made one for MGS2.Screamin_EaGLes

Dunno if this is what you mean, but in Metal Gear Solid, if you passsed the VR missions, you can play as the cyborg Ninja, in MGS2:Substance, I think, if you do the VR missions you get to play as Raiden with the HF blade ("ninja sword").

That was deep...hmmm super soldiers...But why does ocelot look much older than snake in MGS2 and 1? I wonder was snake ever as timid as raiden was.... Space_Cowboy7

Because Ocelot should be about as old as Snake's dad. In MGS4, you see snake look about as old as Ocelot but that is due to Snake's rapid aging for some reason, apparently due to a mix of FOXDIE virus infection and the fact that Snake was cloned from Big Boss' recessive genes (Liquid was born of Big Boss' best genes, those that were left over were used to make Solid)

^^^

edit: beat me to it, lol

... wow you got something wrong. The Patriots are not War profiteers. The Patriots are the ones who run society and keeps the USA in Check. People think the president run america but it's really the patriots who do. There were 12 members(i think) all whom have died in 1907. The New Members are unkown. Also Patriots Created the S3 plan(confused to be the cloning big boss) but is actually for sanity of Social Society. They cover up secret projects like Metal Gear Ray which was housed in the plant facility. The Oil Spill story was a cover up so the plant facility would look like a clean up department. Thats why raiden didn't know what he really was doing,cause they never Briefed him. Phlilosphers are a secret group in People's Republic of China,little is known about them but they are NOT The patriots. Eva and The boss are/were with them. The boss or joy was a Instructor at one of the phliloshpers schools. I kinda study MGS series so i took notes.Hitamaru-homia

Not to start a flaming war here, but wasn't the philosophers a world organisation that split up into the Chinese branch and the American branch of the philosophers.

... wow you got something wrong. The Patriots are not War profiteers. The Patriots are the ones who run society and keeps the USA in Check. People think the president run america but it's really the patriots who do. There were 12 members(i think) all whom have died in 1907. The New Members are unkown. Also Patriots Created the S3 plan(confused to be the cloning big boss) but is actually for sanity of Social Society. They cover up secret projects like Metal Gear Ray which was housed in the plant facility. The Oil Spill story was a cover up so the plant facility would look like a clean up department. Thats why raiden didn't know what he really was doing,cause they never Briefed him. Phlilosphers are a secret group in People's Republic of China,little is known about them but they are NOT The patriots. Eva and The boss are/were with them. The boss or joy was a Instructor at one of the phliloshpers schools. I kinda study MGS series so i took notes.Hitamaru-homia

Yes they are war profiteers, watch the latest trailer. There is a line about war being used to prop up the economy, the patriots control everything thus they are making money off the wars.

Not to start a flaming war here, but wasn't the philosophers a world organisation that split up into the Chinese branch and the American branch of the philosophers.

donwoogie

Ya I seem to remember that also. I'll go look for the script on that, I knew they were connected.

If you look at the script here, in the very last dialogue line of the game with Ocelot speaking (after the credits are finished rolling) you hear him say the money is back in the hands of America. There was a split between the philisophers (obviously referring to the cold war). And so thus when American won the cold war, the patriots were rulers of the world. And Ocelot also mentions that the philsophers would be revived with that money.

[QUOTE="Space_Cowboy7"]That was deep...hmmm super soldiers...But why does ocelot look much older than snake in MGS2 and 1? I wonder was snake ever as timid as raiden was.... donwoogie

Because Ocelot should be about as old as Snake's dad. In MGS4, you see snake look about as old as Ocelot but that is due to Snake's rapid aging for some reason, apparently due to a mix of FOXDIE virus infection and the fact that Snake was cloned from Big Boss' recessive genes (Liquid was born of Big Boss' best genes, those that were left over were used to make Solid)

Ocelot is older cause he was born in the lates 40s. Snake ages faster cause they cloned snake. Liquid was part of Reccesive genes,Snake is dominant. We Studied Genes in school xD! Snake is Dominant Cause he looks more like Big boss. Liquid is reccevive cause he has Blonde hair. Liquid was born first then Snake a few moments later they're twins. Snake and Liquid were born in 1972(les enfants terribles projects.

@ The Guy with war profiteers about the MGS4 trailer

That's Liquid Ocelot's PMC Company that is profiting not The Patriots. Ocelot and Liquid don't know where the patriots are. The Patriots would never sell any war-releated material to another Country cause those materials could be used against them. The Patriots are Kings of America i would say xD

That's Liquid Ocelot's PMC Company that is profiting not The Patriots. Ocelot and Liquid don't know where the patriots are. The Patriots would never sell any war-releated material to another Country cause those materials could be used against them. The Patriots are Kings of America i would say xDHitamaru-homia

In portable ops as someone already confirmed, the patriots set up a similar rebellion entity to control the world. So its unclear what role Ocelot may be playing in this, he may have their goals in mind or he may be rebelling as one of the patriots.

In the same way that the philisophers were war profiteers, the patriots are part of that scheme in that they are making money off the war, however they are different because its not their goal to simply profit, their goal is to use the war profits for their goals of acheiving stability in the world as they see fit. Of course this is logical speculation, its how they can fund things like GW. It hasn't been explictly stated that the patriots do start wars for this reason, but surely it would be part of the fundraising efforts. In the same way in real life we have use our military to maintain economic hegemony to make our country a better place, supposedly.

[QUOTE="donwoogie"]

[QUOTE="Space_Cowboy7"]That was deep...hmmm super soldiers...But why does ocelot look much older than snake in MGS2 and 1? I wonder was snake ever as timid as raiden was.... Hitamaru-homia

Because Ocelot should be about as old as Snake's dad. In MGS4, you see snake look about as old as Ocelot but that is due to Snake's rapid aging for some reason, apparently due to a mix of FOXDIE virus infection and the fact that Snake was cloned from Big Boss' recessive genes (Liquid was born of Big Boss' best genes, those that were left over were used to make Solid)

Ocelot is older cause he was born in the lates 40s. Snake ages faster cause they cloned snake. Liquid was part of Reccesive genes,Snake is dominant. We Studied Genes in school xD! Snake is Dominant Cause he looks more like Big boss. Liquid is reccevive cause he has Blonde hair. Liquid was born first then Snake a few moments later they're twins. Snake and Liquid were born in 1972(les enfants terribles projects.

@ The Guy with war profiteers about the MGS4 trailer

That's Liquid Ocelot's PMC Company that is profiting not The Patriots. Ocelot and Liquid don't know where the patriots are. The Patriots would never sell any war-releated material to another Country cause those materials could be used against them. The Patriots are Kings of America i would say xD

It's the other way round. In MGS1, after the credits have finished rolling, you hear a secret conversation between Ocelelot and the anonymous president (who turns out to be Solidus) stating that Solid was the recessive one and Liquid was the dominant one however, from inferance, it can be said that Big Boss, due to an ongoing theme in the MG games, brought Liquid up thinking he was recessive and told Solid that he was genetically the best soldier alive.

[QUOTE="Hitamaru-homia"]That's Liquid Ocelot's PMC Company that is profiting not The Patriots. Ocelot and Liquid don't know where the patriots are. The Patriots would never sell any war-releated material to another Country cause those materials could be used against them. The Patriots are Kings of America i would say xDPrimordialMeme

In portable ops as someone already confirmed, the patriots set up a similar rebellion entity to control the world. So its unclear what role Ocelot may be playing in this, he may have their goals in mind or he may be rebelling as one of the patriots.

In the same way that the philisophers were war profiteers, the patriots are part of that scheme in that they are making money off the war, however they are different because its not their goal to simply profit, their goal is to use the war profits for their goals of acheiving stability in the world as they see fit.

Ocelot Don't like the patriots who wants them for some reason. Thats why he took Metal Gear Ray and went after them. But Snake said the Address that was on the ROM was probably not the real adress. Ocelot's PMC companys are profiting and they using the profits to mass produce Metal Gears For world domination.

Ocelot Don't like the patriots who wants them for some reason. Thats why he took Metal Gear Ray and went after them. But Snake said the Address that was on the ROM was probably not the real adress. Ocelot's PMC companys are profiting and they using the profits to mass produce Metal Gears For world domination.

Hitamaru-homia

That was my original theory as well, but somebody brought up how the rebellion was in fact set up by the patriots in Portable Ops. So if thats the case, it could be that Ocelot is being used by the patriots unknowingly. He thinks he is rebelling but is actually serving the purpose they desire. Or maybe in fact all this hatred of the patriots is an act, which is why I say we don't know for sure. And we might ask what that purpose is if Ocelot is being used and wanted as a rebel, if Ocelot is able to sell Metal Gears and arms all over the world than perhaps the patriots do want it, they might be trying to spread war as a tool, to acheieve what they see as peace. Sort of the orwellian "war is peace "concept, it keeps people distracted and doing their jobs in society without questioning their rulers, its used for societal obedience and control.

Let me bring up a couple points I came accross. But by all means, if I'm wrong let me know.

I believe that Ocelot IS in fact a Patriot himself. Here's my reasons, 1. Ocelot said "It's all part of our plan to make the world SHE envisioned a reality". Due to the fact that he's the one who stole the legacy from the Philosopher's to start this plan, and that the SHE can only be referring to his mother, The Boss, who is considered an actual dictionary patriot for what she did (dying for the sake of her country), I believe Ocelot was a founding member of The Patriots. Keep in mind, he also says he wants "him" to join in reference to Big Boss. 2. My second reason for thinking Ocelot is a Patriot is this, everytime an incident happens that will threaten the wellbeing of the US, while Ocelot may have his hand in it, it never suceeds, and we hear him call his superior after the incident to report on how everything went according to plan, even though it seems he lost.

Another thing people aren't really hitting on is. IT IS LIQUID IN MGS4, even though it looks like Ocelot. Remember at the end of 2 where Liquid assumes complete control. Well you might be asking yourself, how exactly can Liquid have taken complete control over Ocelot, just by Ocelot surgically attaching Liquid's arm. Ask yourself this, who is Ocelot's father? Well we know Ocelot's mother is The Boss. She had an affair during WWII with The Sorrow, and bam 20 years later during the cold war, we have Ocelot. The Sorrow, the most powerful ESP user and spirit medium is the father of Ocelot. Ocelot has the same power though he isn't aware of it...that's why attaching Liquid's arm means Liquid possessed him, because he pretty much called back Liquid's spirit from the dead. THUS you are looking at 100% LIQUID, Big Boss, Solid Snake, America hater guy, and 0% OCELOT in MGS4 as far as Kojima has let us know so far from his character descriptions and cutscenes.

[QUOTE="GlavinChris"]

I have never played an MGS4, but this post seems to give me the basic theme behind the series. I am soooo excited for this game, it really seems like a great thriller.

Also, on a side note (I hate doing this to people's threads but I figured you would know best) If I had time to play one MGS game (at least at the moment) what game would you reccomend me go out and buy? Thanks!

-The Glavin

ScorpiuS739

ha yea that makes 999999k+ of us!

Well I've always known that Ocelot is either one of them, or used by them. But it wasn't Ocelot that hated them, Liquid did. Liquid took over. In the other japanese trailers reading the subtitles, I don't think The Patriots are heading the events of MGS4 at all. But infact that I think Oceliquid really has them by the balls and crapping their pants. From what I understood is that the power Oceliquid reached, that he can actually for once, rival The Patriots and they consider this whole thing a serious threat. I never played portable ops (no PSP), but I've heard the Null codename refrence and what I thought personally was Major Zero. Null is another saying for Zero is it not? Going from what I've gatherd, I think that everything The Patriots have done backfired this time due to Liquid taking over and probley infiltrating them all these years gaining knowledge of everything they did, flushed the toilet on them, took off and started this. They can't touch him. But for some reason, I had a hunch before that I think The Philosphers in China still exist and could be backing Oceliquid as sort of a "revenge plot" for getting the short end of the stick with the Legacy. Well also cause Eva really worked for them aswell, then to find out suddenly that Eva's in MGS4 now aswell? I think that maybe my hunch could be a possibility. Oceliquid even stealing The Patriots' funds, could not have done this all by himself. Something established has to be backing him, considering China is the next rising super power in real life and theoriesed as being apart of a possible World War 3 in the future. I think it could pose a role in MGS4, since Russia is basicly done. Well think for a second, every Metal Gear Solid game had some sort of "backing" in the storyline. MGS1, President George Sears. MGS2, The Patriots. MGS3, early Cold War, US vs The Soviet Union (aka The Gru). There was always an established power behind "the bad guys" (though in MGS3, I don't think either country was "the good guy").

I don't know, what do you think?

ur way worng man. solid snake was born with big boss's dominant genes. which is why liquid saught to kill solid in msg1 on ps. liquid was pissed that he couldnt seek revenge on his father, big boss, because solid snake had killed him previously. so he saw it that if he killed solid then he could still exact his revenge on his father for having him be the misfit baby. it wasnt about love or any of that crap either. liquid was pissed over the "les enfants terribles" project and how he got the s*&t stick compared to solid.

i just got done beating msg1 two hours ago
Jake1237263827

No, liquid was brought up being told he was the recessive one, if you wait til after the credits have rolled at the end of MGS1, then you hear a conversation between Solidus and Ocelot stating that liquid was the dominant one all along

actually i think u should play mgs2 first because its the most connected with mgs4. it has a big deal of the same characters as mgs4, including Vamp, Raiden, Snake, Otacon, Ocelot(before his mind was taken over by Liquid), and Colonel. i think that's all of them from mgs2 that are in mgs4, but then there's other mgs1 characters that make a comeback like Meryl. i dont really know of anymore that show up in mgs4. maybe they unveil others but atm thats all they have shown us. i am almost positive there will be boss battles again, including a couple with Vamp again. But even hideo himself, if im not mistaken, said that mgs2 is the closest u will get in understanding mgs4.gollum007

Yeh,but the whole "Liquid being in control of Ocelot" angle is a bit meaningless unless yoou play MGS1 first. I think the order they come in is fairly accurate, ie. MGS1, MGS2, MGS3. Also, if you play them out of order, it might seem boring since, if you play MGS3 first, MGS2 and MGS1 will seem massively obscelete and MGS3 makes more sense if you have played MGS2 and 1

What a wonderful post! Was to decrypt many of the themes of an often impenetrable story.

About this: A quick real world example, Iran in 1979 with the overthrow of the brutal Shah we had installed to do our bidding, so you realize why the leaders in this part of the world oppose America.

Yeah dude... in the early 50's, England was basically stealing oil from Iran using underground pipes to violate above ground agreements. Iran demanded they stop. England came to us for help and we backed them, and Ike declard the democratically elected leader of Iran to be a communist and sent in the CIA to assasinate him. After he was killed, we installed the puppet Shah, and the people rebelled against him, resulting in the Ayatollah Khomani coming to power. (SP?) That's when our troubles began in the middle east. They don't hate us for our freedom... they had freedom until we went over there and assasinated their leader to promote our own agenda.

Then 911 happens, and everyone asks "Why do they hate us?" Ask yourself this: If Iran sent spies over and killed Bush (and Cheney too, while you're at it) then more or less replaced our system of government with a pro-Iran dictator as our puppet president, what do you think WE would do about that? Blow up Iran, that's what. For more on the subject, I recommend the excellent documentary Why We Fight... it's not leftist claptrap, it's actually presented really neutrally.

As an aside, Shane at 1up/EGM theorized that the plot of the latest Metal Gear game mirrors the console wars. It's an interesting theory, but a bit tenuous.