Are EVs dumb and Elon musk a con?

Theres alot of crazy EV fanatics saying only pure EVs are acceptable, and Elon Musk has also said the same thing a number of times.

I'm all for sustainable energy and a clean green future but in that case, wouldn't a plug in hybrid vehicle be more environmentally friendly?

I mean with an 80kwh battery you could split that between 10 plug in hybrid versus 1 tesla. And in most cases, the plug in hybrid drivers use so little gas that it's almost negligible.

You could displace 9 or 10 times the amount of gasoline with plug in hybrid than with a single tesla. And heck, the plug in is cheaper too.

You do know that other EVs other than Tesla exist, right? Plenty of full EV cars cost the same as a hybrid version of a similar car.

Alot of EVs look like shit. So do alot of modern cars. I want a 1969 dodge charger in mint condition. That's my dream car right now. But I don't have 50-70k to get one right now, but one day

I just like those hard edges, I don't like these bubblefied cars.

You know if they made EVs look alot like American muscle cars I bet more people would want one.

We'll likely be 100% renewable energy within the next 50 years (providing we end the debate on nuclear), so EV's will eventually be sustainable. The push for EV's right now is kind of silly.

No revving of engines is a blessing. The lack of noise is fantastic.

I don't think they are dumb and while Musk is certainly flawed and arguably misguided, I don't think he is a con artist.

What they are is relatively new, at least as a mainstream consumer vehicle. Truth be told we should have adopted them en masse a long time ago and made EV or hybrids the standard.

There are obviously some issues though. Charging still has some kinks to work out as Tesla's misleadingly tell you they get X miles per charge but apparently you can't charge them past 75% or something? And the fact they don't pay any gas tax (in California at least) but still use the roads is a bit of a scam in my opinion; they use the roads, they should have to pay for the maintenance.

I don't know, for me I'd love an EV. I only drive about five minutes to work, five minutes to the store once each week, and then maybe 40-50 miles to visit my folks or my sister. I don't do huge commutes so an EV would be perfect for me.

I think all the problems require either a.) time to work out, or b.) infrastructure upgrades. We need to embrace nuclear power for a few decades while we build up our renewable infrastructure or make more advancements into non-fossil energy.

Growing up I lived up the hill from a freeway onramp and it wasn't really that bad most of the time, but some prick with a muscle car must have worked downtown and commuted because about five times per week he'd get on that freeway and work his way through about five gears, redlining each time. Hard to sleep with that noise carrying on for miles, echoing off those worthless sound deflecting walls.

It does feel early, but at the same time I think if we create demand for it we will see a greater push for renewables and nuclear.

It's a chicken or egg situation of sorts, I guess you could say.

There are a lot more EVs than Tesla, and in fact, I would argue Tesla is one of the worst brands for EVs.

That said, EVs alone will not be enough, and I dont think EVs will work for every type of vehicle, especially those where reach is concerned.

For things like Busses and Trucks, Hydrogen is the way to go.

Noise is more of a general issue (for me at least). So a lot of things that removes noise is welcome. The bus around here is fully electric and I think it works well with shorter bus circuits.

Tesla seems to be a bit like Apple. Either you love it or hate it.

Next time I am out buying a new car, I really hope I can afford the Mercedes EQE. Of course that is wishful thinking atm.

Charging is somewhat of an issue here. Or mostly how to pay for charging. It being private business, companies have their own way of doing it. It can be app and or other methods. Granted I do not have personal experience with this.

EVs aren't any different than any other industry. People invest, companies advertise and market with hopes to sell more, profit. Much of the stuff you hear about them is marketing, and one of the largest markets is convincing people they're saving the world by spending extra to buy one of their EVs. But the truth is, what goes into making an electric vehicle is extremely toxic, and most of those materials are the product of child slave labor in places like Congo, and your EV is no "greener" than who you go through to buy your electricity, which in most countries is still largely coal or natural gas.

At best, you may spend less money out of pocket per mile traveled using electricity over gas, but over the life of the vehicle, the higher cost, higher maintenance, even that probably isn't going to balance out. So all you're really doing is putting money in the pocket of one billionaire over a different billionaire.

As of now, the overall data puts them at 27th out of 28 in reliability. Not ideal.

https://insideevs.com/news/549130/consumerreports-tesla-reliability-poor-2021/

But I agree, it will be interesting to see how the infrastructure supporting EVs evolves. Especially see how it evolves in current pedestrianisation going on here in europe.

Here I see some gas stations has removed some pumps and replaced with charging stations instead. Limited to 150KW but it is a start. They put up hoses for vacuum cleaning your cas as well next to them.

EVs are great. If you have bought a new car in the past 10 years and haven't bought or leased at least a hybrid, you're pretty dumb. I'm paying less now per mile than I was when gas was $2.50 / gal with my hybrid. This whole discussion is absurd. There is absolutely no reason to own a passenger car that exclusively uses a gas engine. It's the dumbest thing you could do.

@tjandmia: EVs or even hybrids aren't doable/don't make sense for a lot of people.

The big issue with EVs is that their start up cost is simply put, too high. Even if they are cheaper in the long run (which in most cases they are).

There is also a nice boon of your transporation costss being nowhere near as dependant on political stability like with those using more conventional fuel sources.

I dislike cars, but I do think subsidizing EVs is a good start. That way more people can afford them.

No, EVs are not dumb. No, Elon is not a con man. He's just a douche with an overinflated ego.

There is plenty of work to be done on our infrastructure (USA), but that comes with adoption rates getting higher year over year. Some people cannot feasibly own one without some updates. Wouldn't touch a Tesla though as I'm glad Maroxad posted what I was about to. Their cars are overpriced and underperforming to competitors.

Sweden's EV infrastructure is behind Norway quite a bit, but we arent doing too bad. Still, I wish, we, the country of Greta Thunberg, took EVs a bit more seriously. They arent the golden solution, but transitioning to EVs is better than nothing.

thats nonsense. I've been driving around my prius for the last 6 years, and its been fantastic. Back during covid when gas was like $1/gallon, driving the prius was pretty much free, and now at $4.3/gallon, its literally saved my ass. I honestly feel bad for those people living in cali, paying $6/gallon or whatever. Geez, they're rekked hard. The only segment that doesn't have good hybrids are the trucks, and most of the people driving those are just insecure posers and soccer moms anyway. They deserve to get screwed by $6/gallon. Only a few of them actually need a truck for work purposes.

the con man elon musk has said multiple times that plug in hybrids are dumb. But considering how toxic those big lithium batteries are, wouldn't it make sense to have 8 smaller packs, than 1 big back in a tesla?? I mean how could he say such a stupid thing when his 2nd business is all about launching rockets into space. How much carbon pollution has his rockets put into the air?

there are definitely some genuine concerns about the battery. I wouldn't say its extremely toxic, I mean we're already mining for these things anyway. But yes, slave labour and child labour is definitely an issue. I heard tesla stopped using a lot of these materials in their battery. Over time, the industry will get better and better.

The cost savings can end up being in the 10s of thousands of dollars over the life of the car, theres less pollution, cleaner air, etc. On top of that, the battery packs are a gold mine for power companies. I mean just imagine, there will be millions of these battery packs that might be sitting in a scrap yard or recycling facility within the next 10 to 15 years. The power companies can use these packs for power storage and couple them with renewable like solar or wind. Even if a battery pack for a car degrades to 30-50%, they can still be used for power storage.

Tesla batteries are made from hundreds of smaller batteries. Your comment about rockets is extremely dumb.

I don't think we're capable of replacing our 20th century lifestyles with them. I wouldn't call EVs a scam though. I'd say Musk's hyperloop idea or him having someone dress up like an android dancing on stage to pitch whatever about his AI endeavors, he's going to be putting himself into some Theranos situation if he isn't careful.

Musks ideas have been practical and theres physical proof of this.

E. Holmes never had ANYTHING real to show.

@blaznwiipspman1: I'm glad you can speak for every person and know what actually will and will not work for them.

well im speaking for most people, the average american, while your talking about the few, who a hybrid or ev might not make sense.

hes stated that plug in hybrid vehicles don't make sense. He's bashed hydrogen vehicles, as using too much carbon from their generation. All the while he launches hundreds of rockets into space, and is even thinking of launching a passenger space tourism business for rich folk, and passenger travel using rockets to any point on earth. So with that said, how can you not call him a con artist or a hypocrite? On one hand he pushes the EV green energy faith, on the other hes spewing out more carbon and doing more damage than multiple industries put together. He's also a strong bitcoin supporter. Bitcoin has been known for being a horrendous impact on the environment.

I think you'd do much better with a plug in hybrid than an EV. It gives you the best of both worlds, and its 1/3 the price of the average tesla.

Please don't think to speak for me 🤣😜😉

With that said, I think a lot of people want or would benefit from EV/hybrid vehicles, it's just not practical to get one, or they're too expensive, or whatever.

When there is an EV/hybrid that is 25k or less, looks good, and lasts as long as a Honda or Toyota, then we can start taking them serious.

I don't like Elon Musk, but I don't think he is scamming anyone. At the end of the day he is just another rich corporate leech on getting fat off our distorted form of capitalism who is only able to do so because he was somewhat wealthy from the start.

At the end of the day, however, these people get away with as much as we allow them to get away with. If you have an issue with Musk, well, take it up with the US government (and maybe go easier on Pelosi while you're at it, she is one of the few that stood up to Musk).

For anyone interested on just how big of an asshole Musk is, I highly recommend the following Podcasts. The host is very liberal (to the point of being an anarchist) so keep that in mind, but he does his research and it is very informative (and entertaining).

Behind the Bastards - I Do Not Like Elon Musk Very Much Pt 1

Behind the Bastards - I Do Not Like Elon Musk Very Much Pt 2

Musk is not a great guy. Between kicking old folks out of a retirement community and shutting down a beach, his cars being difficult to paint and thus polluting the world, his cars not being reliable, and his rockets kicking out more greenhouse gas than most countries, it's not great.

space rockets are a drop in a bucket compared to the commercial air travel industry.

yeah but while commercial air travel is a critical industry that has made great strides to be more "green", rockets are a growing industry that pollute a lot nonetheless.

Of course if we had high-speed rail networks in the US we wouldn't need to fly as much, but who am I to argue for common-sense solutions...

@mrbojangles25: Under Siege 2.

:P haha, sorry I had to.

I wouldn't say EV's are dumb, but a Plug-In Hybrid that could get 50 or 100 miles of electric only range would probably be more ideal for alot of people. The problem is to this point most of the plug-ins were only getting a sad 10 or 20 miles on EV only, so the EV only mode wasn't very useful. You get 50 miles of electric only driving before firing up the engine, then it's a bit more reasonable and useful to more people as a sort of pauper's EV.

A few issues with this. First, he is right about hydrogen if your goal is to reduce carbon output. The primary source for hydrogen is being extracted from hydrocarbon fuels. And no, rockets aren't doing more damage than multiple industries put together. The amount of fuel a rocket uses pales in comparison to power plans or millions of vehicles.

But Musk runs a business, as such, it's his job to make the stocks of that business more valuable, and to convince people to buy more of them. Some of his claims do border on fraud. If you think the industry, and people who run it legitimately and genuinely are trying to save the world from the evils of their competitors fuel types, you're being naive. "Green" energy and electric vehicles are about making a buck, and the companies who push them want people to give them their money. It's profitable to push this notion that you're going to save the world, or you are a better person if you you buy one of their vehicles. It's marketing. It's business. That doesn't really change.

I understand

Elon Musk is a con artist, but it is NOT because of his EVs or Rockets.

How many rockets go up in a year? How many aircraft do you think are in the air right this second? Are you really going to tell me it all evens out? No, not even remotely.

not everything, but we can definitely make a bunch of changes. A lot of it is low hanging fruit, easy to accomplish stuff. I mean a prius or a corolla hybrid is almost the same price as the gas price version. You'd be a fool to buy a corolla over the corolla hybrid when the upfront cost difference is around $3.5k. You could make that money back in under 2 years.

The issue is the weight, size and cost of the battery pack. A few years ago, the plug in hybrids were around 15-20 miles, and nowadays with battery tech improvements, thats increased to 25-40 miles. Give it a few years, 50 miles for plug in hybrid is coming. 100 miles is still a long ways away.

its not about now, its about the future. And even now, his rockets are spewing tons of carbon. That isn't the main issue though, because this kind of issue is wide spread across various industries. Its the fact that hes a hypocrite and a moron.

@blaznwiipspman1:There are two questions there. Elon I couldn't care less about but EVs are something I'm interested in. Generally EVs can be pretty good but there's a wide range of different EVs out there with varying degrees of practicality vs cost. Hybrids (even plug in hybrids) are still somewhat limited in their capabilities and range. If you're looking at a gasoline version of a particular car, yes the hybrid version (plug in or otherwise) is probably the better choice but it's still basically a gasoline car and depending on your use case you'll still probably be reliant on that gas just like if you had a regular ICE car.

@mrbojangles25: So the deal with charging is two things. First, the speed at which the battery charges is determined by how low the current charge is. The lower the charge level, the faster the battery charges, so if you're on a road trip and you don't want to spend as much time at chargers then you want to keep the battery level lower on average rather than higher. As for what you can charge the battery to, you absolutely can charge to whatever level you want but for the longevity of the battery it's not recommended to keep it charged to 100% most of the time. You should only do that ahead of something like a road trip and keep it capped at 70%-80% the rest of the time. Even at 70%, a Model 3 LR will go about 250 miles before requiring a charge so this generally isn't a big deal.

@eoten: While initial cost is generally higher, maintenance costs on EVs are generally less than ICE cars because they are mechanically less complex. ICE systems require some pretty regular maintenance, fluid replacements, lubricants, etc whereas electric drivetrains are comparatively straightforward. Regen braking means significantly less wear on brake pads to the point that you may not even need to replace them over the lifetime of the car (52k miles so far and I'm still on my original set). No transmission/clutch that needs to be maintained or replaced as most EVs are just a single gear. You tend to tear through tires faster due to the increased torque but tire makers haven't seemed to catch wise to this yet and I generally can get a set replaced under warranty before I have to buy more.

@Maroxad: Teslas are actually pretty good. They took a CR hit due to some reliability issues with stuff like the center computer in some models but the Model S was actually their highest rated car for like 5 years straight. Reliability is a bit of a spectrum because there's a big difference between "my car is constantly broken down" vs "my automatic door on my Model X doesn't always close by itself". Tesla's issues tend to lean more towards the latter then the former.

whats your reason for calling him a con artist? Its like everyone is bashing the guy nowadays.

He bashed wokeness. He was once their golden boy who could do no wrong, championing the altruistic, benevolent fight against CO2, but then he started saying things like "wokeness is one of the biggest threats to to modern civilization" and "at it's heart, wokeness is divisive, exclusionary, and hateful." He's absolutely correct of course, but the truth, facts don't matter to woke types, so he's been the spawn of Satan himself in their eyes since.

People like Maroxad will try to convince you he come up with these opinions on his own, but the truth is, he's just been reading the negative press from your typical far left rags like WaPo, NYT, etc which have been painting him as a con artist. Which may be true, it may not be, but truth is he Musk didn't bash these extremist leftwing ideologies, they'd only be reporting positive crap about him, and people who read those rags would be none the wiser.

@blaznwiipspman1: I guess I am thinking right now the economics of it not in relation to the current consumer level, just whether the entire world starts switching over to EV vehicles whether say supplies in lithium get stretched/depleted.

A Google search says the Tesla S models have 63kg of lithium in their battery assembly. There are about 82K metric tons of lithium mined/produced globally each year, so just off those numbers if the entire lithium production went to EVs they could only product 1.3 million Teslas per year off the world supply. There's over 1 billion gasoline fueled cars in world today so it would take close to a millennium to replace that. There's an estimated 22 million metric tons of lithium reserves to be mined and if all that went into making Tesla S's with the 63kg batteries that's enough to make around 350 million EVs, about one for every American at the moment and none for the rest of the current 7.6 billion other people on Earth, and we'd have depleted the entire world supply of lithium to get there. I know they can also make batteries from other stuff but they'll need some solution other than what we use now. Anyhow, yeah, it's going to be hard for the world to replace the 20th century lifestyles with EVs.

what a useless thing to be angry at a guy for. He just has common sense for the most part. I don't agree with Elon on everything, but hes right that society is getting a bit too soft. The world isn't such a nice place. I also noticed that the left wing media stopped reporting as much positive stuff on him, but the WaPo thing is a bit more personal than the rest. Bezos and Musk have long standing beef with each other and of course Jeff Bezos/Amazon own WaPo. Musk has bashed bezos and amazon multiple times before. Amazon has a few lawsuits against Musks companies.

EVs are a bandaid but not a long term solution unless you crank the fk out of nuclear. (or some new crazy tech appears)

wind and solar are a joke. need 24/7 reliability on energy production.

@lamprey263: It's a bit more complicated than that but yeah it's not as simple as just "replace all the gas cars with elec cars". If the problem being solved for is global emissions, transportation is only a part of that and you can't ignore the amount of environmental impact in producing all the electric vehicles.

@loonski: One of the things pointed out is that even with a renewable energy car, that energy still has to come from somewhere. Depending on what the source of the electricity is (solar, wind, coal, gas, nuclear) it might actually be worse for the environment than a fuel efficient car burning a small amount of gasoline.

@byshop: Most/all electric cars have less life time emissions than fossil fuel cars even if their only source of power is coal. Fuel has high emissions before reaching the pump.

Wind are solar are perfectly viable, usage of batteries can allow them to be more than competitive.

Generate more than what is consumed, store surpluss in batteries, use stored power when it is down. Possibly using other power sources to make up the minor difference.

What is however, increasingly less viable is oil. Far too susceptible to long term political crises.

That said, I do agree EVs are a band aid solution. And I dont think they will ever work for trucks and busses.

Fair point. You can't ignore the impact of all of the aspects of the supply chain involved to get that gasoline into your actual car.

Electric cars can be pretty awesome but they are practically a disruptive technology. I'm a cloud architect for large enterprises in my day job and I describe elec car ownership in similar terms to cloud architecture. There are potentially big advantages but you have to wrap your head around how they fundamentally work differently or you won't realize/reap the benefits. I wouldn't say they are ideal for every use case. For example, if you regularly drive more miles than the range of an electric car in the course of a day, then an electric vehicle probably isn't a good fit. If you live in an apartment and don't have the ability to install your own charger that might be another reason. But for a lot of people it makes more sense once you get your head around it.

Yeah, it's not going to happen. And also with what you said, but wasn't mentioned is as you get closer to that requirement, the price will naturally go up, considerably, for a technology that is already out of the budget of most working class people. And we all have electronics with lithium ion batteries in them... we all know how after a few years, they just don't hold as much of a charge anymore as when you bought them. So, costs of replacing or recycling batteries has to go into those figures as well. It's unrealistic to expect the world is going to switch to EVs, or that doing so is going to stop some imagined end of the world from happening. It's all about $$$ for the people pushing the tech.

@byshop: I see plug ins and hybrids as the better option for reducing emissions. If you think about it, for 1 tesla car, you can have 10 plug in hybrids, with each plug in hybrid getting you 50 miles of electric range. The average person will drive around 35 miles per day. So just having that plug in hybrid will eliminate gas usage for 10 people driving plug in hybrids, versus only 1 person driving a tesla.

That's 10 times less gas usage, 10 times more gas supply, 10 times better national energy security. That's 10 times better supply for li ion battery materials. Plug in hybrids are the answer

EVs are a good thing overall but thats mainly because it's pushing the technology forward and driving down prices.